Looking to do some load development ladder tests in the near future. I'm pretty sure sandbags would the most accurate off a bench but don't really know for sure. I've heard of preloading a bipod. Would I be best testing with sandbags then trying to learn how to shoot with a bipod? I'm looking at purchasing the Harris type bipod. Can you shoot just as accurately with a bipod as bags ?
- Thread starter Icewater
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Some guys do. I would like to be one if them, but the bags are still more forgiving. Also wish that a rear monopod was as good as a bag off a bench, but I think there's a little more bounce. I'm no expert, but in my experience, my best groups tend to be off bags from a bench or off a bipod prone in the dirt. I've seen guys shooting pretty amazing groups at the range of a bipod and rear bag, so my technique must need some tweaking. Look up "bugholes from a bipod" and see just how well a bipod can shoot!
I do just as good with my bipods as bags. I think the weight of your rifle and the shape of your foream will be the deciding factors on which one is better
You can load a bipod but you can't load sandbags. Bipod will give u more consistency
You can if you just think about it a bit.
I have a 2x4 box and I put the bag against the front of the box and then use a short rail on the forearm to load it. It keeps everything in place much better, is repeatable, and still lets your shoulder and head be positioned correctly.
How do you appraise a load if you do not know how to build a steady position, as implied by your statement, "trying to learn how to shoot with a bipod"? But, to answer your question, a shooter who knows how to integrate the three elements of a steady position: muscular relaxation, bone/artificial support, and Natural Point of Aim can shoot accurately with any combination of supports. I think the sandbag, where it can be used, will allow for more consistent shot to shot control of the rifle, from rifle condition at rest to condition at bullet departure, than alternative supports, when the non-firing hand is properly placed on the hand guard rather than at the butt.
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Hmmm, so the support which requires more muscle for control of the rifle will give you more consistency than one which requires less muscle for control of the rifle, is that right? How does that work?
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I used to think sand bags, but after utilizing bi-pods for several years I have become accustomed to rely on them. If they are good enough for 1000 yd matches then they should work for any other purpose. I like them because they are solid and don't "give" and don't need to be readjusted due to settling, etc. Use what you are going to be utilizing afterward, sand bags are cumbersome to tote around, bi-pods are attached, another plus. Once you get used to them they will be "good to go". OR NOT, LOL.
Yes absolutely!! A properly loaded bipod requires almost no muscleing of the gun because the gun is being stabilized between your shoulder and the bipod... If it's done correctly you should hardly have to pull the gun into your shoulder because that is being done by the loaded bipod
Now there is a lot more to building a good position but we are not discussing that...we are discussing bipod vs sandbag. So assuming if shooter is laying gun on top of bag that would require much more use of shooters muscles to properly shoulder gun than properily loading the bipod would.
I'm sure a gizmo could be built like the box and bag mentioned above that would function the same way...even a shooters sling will produce same effect...but really why not just use a bipod that seems easier for load development.
A good sandbag position can be built with no muscling of the gun, in fact, a sandbag position requires only enough muscle to control the rifle, less than what you need to "load" a bipod. Thus, with sandbag, the shooter can relax into the position to better understand adjustment of NPA. Loading prevents complete muscular relaxation as it (muscle) is used to build the position and maintain aim, period. Unload the bipod, that's to say, relax, and aim will no longer be exactly on target but back at NPA. Keeping this muscle consistent from shot to shot is problematic as it is hard for anyone to appraise the consistency of muscle. So, while the use of a bipod by someone trained in their proper use will get good results in certain scenarios using one for appraisal of ammuniton accuracy is not one of them.
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Front support prone using a loaded bi-pod when done correctly has NO muscle tension. Your relaxed body’s dead weight, when in the right position to the rifle loads the bi-pod, do not rotate your shoulder into the rifle to create any bi-pod load move your whole body forward staying square with the rifle then relax. Sand bags as stable as they are, tend to produce a “free recoil” of a rifle off a bench especially for newer shooters, not the best thing for consistent results. If you are on a bench you will have issue with creating relaxed and proper bi- pod load, it is for prone. I suggest stay off the bench and go prone for load development.<O
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I don't and wont use bipods.
But for the "what its worth" idea I shoot the CMP Vintage Sniper Rifle Events. Per rules you can use a sling or sandbags but not both. I found I can do much better with the sling as opposed to sandbags.
With a proper sling position, I always fall back the my NPA after recoil where I don't using sandbags.
But for the "what its worth" idea I shoot the CMP Vintage Sniper Rifle Events. Per rules you can use a sling or sandbags but not both. I found I can do much better with the sling as opposed to sandbags.
With a proper sling position, I always fall back the my NPA after recoil where I don't using sandbags.
Front support prone using a loaded bi-pod when done correctly has NO muscle tension. Your relaxed body’s dead weight, when in the right position to the rifle loads the bi-pod, do not rotate your shoulder into the rifle to create any bi-pod load move your whole body forward staying square with the rifle then relax. Sand bags as stable as they are, tend to produce a “free recoil” of a rifle off a bench especially for newer shooters, not the best thing for consistent results. If you are on a bench you will have issue with creating relaxed and proper bi- pod load, it is for prone. I suggest stay off the bench and go prone for load development.<O
The free recoil as you alluded to is not possible when the non-firing hand is placed on the handguard. I understand dead weight as what is loading the bipod in prone; but, this shooter is shooting from the bench and simply placing dead weight into the process of building the position undermines recognition of having properly adjusted NPA. You know this as you also know the bipod masks an understanding for a muscularly relaxed position.
Kraig is right on it about the sling, being more useful for a multitude of reasons than either bipod or sandbags, but seems folks on this forum are not interested in learning about their strengths.
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The vast majority of folks here on this forum run bolt rifles so we have no hand guards? To the OP again I would suggest get off the bench and go prone. How does relaxed body dead weight undermine NPA? That is the first step of building NPA, relax and adjust around the positions pivot point, in prone front support it would be the point of front support. When done correctly, if your body moves for whatever reason breathing, pulse, poor foundational support the rifle must move also, or you are doing NPA wrong.
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</OI get the fact you are all AMU’d up and have a history of HP sling shooting but these folks here tend to run rifles differently and a sling is not the solution to everyone’s questions or the only way to learn fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. I teach the use of slings with precision rifles in intermediate and advanced level’s, it does have its place however for most it is secondary in precision and long range marksmanship outside of certain competitions.<O
</OThe vast majority of folks here on this forum run bolt rifles so we have no hand guards? To the OP again I would suggest get off the bench and go prone. How does relaxed body dead weight undermine NPA? That is the first step of building NPA, relax and adjust around the positions pivot point, in prone front support it would be the point of front support. When done correctly, if your body moves for whatever reason breathing, pulse, poor foundational support the rifle must move also, or you are doing NPA wrong.
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I get the fact you are all AMU’d up and have a history of HP sling shooting but these folks here tend to run rifles differently and a sling is not the solution to everyone’s questions or the only way to learn fundamentals of rifle marksmanship. I teach the use of slings with precision rifles in intermediate and advanced level’s, it does have its place however for most it is secondary in precision and long range marksmanship outside of certain competitions.<O
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Use of the word handguard is synonymous with stock fore-end. Now, how does loading undermine NPA? It prevents or dulls the sense of the rifle having been shouldered to point to where it naturally wants to point.
I guess I'll shoot off bags on a bench to test handloads since that is what I am used to. My original plan was to use a bipod in front and a monopod in back but have heard bipods can have more "quirks" when shooting so I got a little nervous. I don't doubt some people can shoot both equally well, which is where I want to be since I plan to shoot exclusively with a bipod, but I think I'll start with bags. After I find my best group off bags I'll shoot my bipod and if my groups aren't the same I'll have to investigate and improve until they do, bench and prone. This is all new to me, I've hunted for years but only a stock rifle and factory ammo, I guess I have to start somewhere, thanks guys!
you really ought to pay the 10 a month and get the hide training videos. they will show you how to build a solid stable postition with a bipod. i dont believe for a second that using sandbags instead of bipod will get you a more stable solid position. but i dont have a bunch of letters/ titles under my name or several thousand posts so you prob should not believe me...
DISCLAIMER:
i am just learning all this as well. i am not a bug hole shooter at 300+ yards. the following are my observations.
i have just begun in the last few months the journey into real shooting. what i mean is not just shooting at paper from a bench at a pie plate at 100 yards. i used to use sand bags, never really liked bipods, until i learned how to use one. i exclusively use bipods now. i took a class about a month ago. it was a run-n-gun type class doing what the instructor called field shooting. everything was from prone (until he set up some challenging barriers to shoot from). at one of the stages, we were prone, facing down hill, sloped down right to left, shooting at steel targets that were up hill. my bipod legs were not long enough to achieve a NPA. so i had to use my back pack under the bipod. from this set up, i was able to hit a head silhouette at 575 yds, one shot. for me, i was happy. that was the smallest target for that stage. some targets were IPSC sized, some were half that size, and some were the tall slender poppers that you see on TV, out to 750. i was able to hit them all in one to 2 shots from my bag-bipod set up.
from the way the instructor explained it, you have to build your foundation. doesn't matter what the rifle lays on.
from a new guy, i would say bipod.
i am just learning all this as well. i am not a bug hole shooter at 300+ yards. the following are my observations.
i have just begun in the last few months the journey into real shooting. what i mean is not just shooting at paper from a bench at a pie plate at 100 yards. i used to use sand bags, never really liked bipods, until i learned how to use one. i exclusively use bipods now. i took a class about a month ago. it was a run-n-gun type class doing what the instructor called field shooting. everything was from prone (until he set up some challenging barriers to shoot from). at one of the stages, we were prone, facing down hill, sloped down right to left, shooting at steel targets that were up hill. my bipod legs were not long enough to achieve a NPA. so i had to use my back pack under the bipod. from this set up, i was able to hit a head silhouette at 575 yds, one shot. for me, i was happy. that was the smallest target for that stage. some targets were IPSC sized, some were half that size, and some were the tall slender poppers that you see on TV, out to 750. i was able to hit them all in one to 2 shots from my bag-bipod set up.
from the way the instructor explained it, you have to build your foundation. doesn't matter what the rifle lays on.
from a new guy, i would say bipod.
We should believe your experience. We should also believe those that clearly know how to do it, as well as coach it might be the one's we would want to show us how to do it. Your profile gives no insight to why anyone would want you to show them how to do it. In fact, since you are not getting results from the sandbag suggests you have not learned enough about the matter to be professing the bipod is better. Better is after all relative, and being relative, it is why I have alluded to the bag as being appropriate support for the shooter's task, not as better support for all tasks. The fact is any combination of bone/artificial support can be utilized to transfer the stability of the ground into the position. As I have stated the problem with the bipod for the OP is that unless he has been taught to use it correctly, it will deceive him into thinking he has a steady position when that is not the case, i.e., bipod hop. The sandbag on the other hand does not present any obstacle to learning how to build a proper position. It allows for all 3 elements of a steady position to be recognized as having been correctly integrated. In other words, the shooter will feel when the position has been built consistently from shot to shot. Now, I have a question for you. What is the purpose of any good position?
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Sandbags or bipod?
These are different techniques:
A loaded bi-pod is a relaxed position: There is no 'muscling' of the rifle when the bi-pod is properly loaded.
A proper bag setup can minimize the effect of the shooter on the rifle, allowing the rifle to ride on the bag in recoil.
Sling-supported prone for NRA Hi-power competition is built as Sterling describes.
You should do load development using the technique of the discipline that you will be shooting.
These are different techniques:
A loaded bi-pod is a relaxed position: There is no 'muscling' of the rifle when the bi-pod is properly loaded.
A proper bag setup can minimize the effect of the shooter on the rifle, allowing the rifle to ride on the bag in recoil.
Sling-supported prone for NRA Hi-power competition is built as Sterling describes.
You should do load development using the technique of the discipline that you will be shooting.
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The bipod may also get a shooter a relaxed position when not properly loaded, and thus, my first response to the OP's inquiry to suggest he might want to learn how to use it before using it to support recognition of the quality of his ammunition.
On your second point, It appears that I incorrectly assumed the bag support was used with non-firing hand placed on hand-guard (fore-end) of stock to assure the presence of control over the rifle through out exercise of follow-through. Even though I stated this was the position I was promoting, I should have perhaps better explained it, since the rifle laid directly on the bag would indeed likely yield just as inferior a result as the bipod without first having some instruction on the technique. Thanks for bringing my oversight to my attention.
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A proper rest will be most accurate of a bench. Benchrest is called benchrest for a reason. This is not something to get too wrapped up about. The most stable handling of the rifle you can conjure up is what you should use for load testing. 99% (I would say 100%, but never say never) of the time, that means a good rest, a rear bag, and preferably one of those 3" wide flat bottom attachments to ride in the front rest (these help quite a bit). You should be able to hold 1/8 MOA with little effort. Shooting 1/8 MOA is another matter, but you should be able to look through a high powered scope and favor one side of a pencil eraser at 100 yards. Sometimes, the bench is the limiting factor. If it's a little wobbly, pull the setup off the bench and put it on the ground.
Test your loads, then shoot however you want - bipod, sling, off the back of an ostrich - whatever floats your boat.
Test your loads, then shoot however you want - bipod, sling, off the back of an ostrich - whatever floats your boat.
This is a pretty good read. Long, but interesting, and towards the end gets into strengths and limitations of bipods, sandbags, packs, etc... His experience and opinions differ quite a bit from a lot of current practice, but is worth consideration.
Hold that Forend!
Hold that Forend!
I enjoyed the article. It's refreshing to see another that sees it as I do.
Sandbags or bipod?
His info is dated, as is his bi-pod technique, and his knowledge of more modern techniques is lacking, but in his defense he is half a world away. It's a good read from the perspective of a target shooter and hunter, though.
His info is dated, as is his bi-pod technique, and his knowledge of more modern techniques is lacking, but in his defense he is half a world away. It's a good read from the perspective of a target shooter and hunter, though.
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Begs the question, is serious tactical marksmanship exclusive to bipod support?
Sandbags or bipod?
It's rarely even about bi-pod support any more.
In the real world the prone shot is a rare one. But when prone, bi-pod and/or bags beats forearm (arm) support every time.
And with regard to alternative positions, provided a few fundamentals are obeyed if it stabilizes the rifle then it's not "wrong". But supporting the forearm of the rifle with your hand will move your weak side shoulder forward.
It's rarely even about bi-pod support any more.
In the real world the prone shot is a rare one. But when prone, bi-pod and/or bags beats forearm (arm) support every time.
And with regard to alternative positions, provided a few fundamentals are obeyed if it stabilizes the rifle then it's not "wrong". But supporting the forearm of the rifle with your hand will move your weak side shoulder forward.
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The sandbag is going to be steadier. Its got a lot more surface area pressing against your rifle and you wont be picking up vibrations that you'd get from the relatively thin legs of a bipod. If you want to actually practice you need to shoot off a bipod of course, unless the only situation you ever plan on using your rifle is sitting down at a bench.
The sandbag is pressing against the rifle, but isn't the bipod bolted directly to the stock, which is kind of the equivalent of having contact with the whole thing?
Also, is the vibration from the bipod happening before or after the bullet leaves the barrel? Is it going to affect the point of impact or just how fast you can get back on target?
As long as the barrel is truely free floated it doesnt matter wether you rest your rifle on the bipod or the stock itself. I think you might be confused on how to use the sandbag, you place the sandbag under the rifle stock, not forward of the bipod touching the barrel. Also the flatter you can get the sandbag the better, because you can get more sandbag to come into contact with the stock. (You can also place a small sandbag which people call shooting bags under your actual butt stock to further stabilize your gun)
The vibration from the bipod is minimal to none at most times. But if you're shooting on a concrete slab or a bench with multiple shooters, its going to pick up some vibrations. A sandbag will act more as a shock absorber and really take any movement out of the equation. The point I'm trying to make about a bipod is your suspending a rifle in the air off two small legs. Which is sturdier, two small legs holding up the forward end of your rifle or a large sandbag that forms to your stock? Arguably the latter.
When it comes to changing your point of impact, it shouldn't change at all. BUT if your barrel isnt free floated, you could get a different POI between a bipod and a sandbag.
With all that said, its up to you and your shooting technique to wether or not you'll get back on target faster with either a bipod or sandbag. Speed should be your last concern though considering you're doing load development. It should all be about consistency and taking your time. Knowing the kind of rifle your using, the rifle stock your using, the bipod your using, the sandbags you have access to, and the bench you'll be shooting off would help people give advice.
Personally, if I was trying to get as accurate as possible, I wouldn't be shooting off a bench. I'd be shooting prone, using either a high quality bipod on actual earth OR sandbag under the stock, and another small sandbag under my buttstock to change elevation.
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If space on the bench permits, I would use sand bags on the front edge of the bench then use your bipod to front-load the bipod against the weight of the bags. This will help to mitigate recoil and bipod hop. Make sure you don't apply so much pressure that you add torque to the stock. Just solid tension pressing straight back into the shoulder pocket. As stated above, making sure there is no contact between the barrel and the stock is paramount.
Good luck and post some pics of groups and your rifle as well as your load development.
Tman
Good luck and post some pics of groups and your rifle as well as your load development.
Tman
I completely understand your issue here I am currently in the same learning curve, shooting off of bags is the only discipline I am comfortable enough with to feel as if I am actually testing the ammo not myself.. for me it is currently my skill level that dictates where to do my testing.. so I currently test ammo on the bags and test myself on the bipod
I haven't seen anything about these myself?.. could you direct another individual who is curious about improving techniques to where the good info can be found?..
I have to ask after this comment that because I am in a similar situation and can see that my groups are better using bags why would I not use the method I am currently better at to test ammo?.. I would prefer to learn to shot off bipods but until I become proficient at it why would I use the method I am not as proficient with to do tests on something like ammo???... I don't understand??
I would love to know if you could also direct someone to a proper place to find good current up to date tutorial on proper positioning.. there are certainly lots of us that are seeking improvement in all the wrong places, and from all the wrong people.. a good source would be greatly appreciated!!..
Sandbags or bipod?
Buy the Rifles Only fundamentals of marksmanship DVD, it's Volume I.
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thanks Graham always looking for ways to learn the proper way instead of the ways that I have just adopted over time..
I very much prefer to shoot from a rest or a bag unless for some reason I am forced to shoot from a bipod. I don't like the monopod, and use a rear bag whenever possible.
All this being said, it is very possible to shoot well from any reasonable sort of position and/or support; and I really miss being physically able to use the sling in prone anymore. It worked especially well and enjoyably for me when it still was an option.
Sterling and Lowlight may come at shooting support from different directions; but both of their viewpoints, even though they can differ, are valuable instruction for the new shooter.
Greg
All this being said, it is very possible to shoot well from any reasonable sort of position and/or support; and I really miss being physically able to use the sling in prone anymore. It worked especially well and enjoyably for me when it still was an option.
Sterling and Lowlight may come at shooting support from different directions; but both of their viewpoints, even though they can differ, are valuable instruction for the new shooter.
Greg
That was an interesting article, "Hold that forend!". I especially liked this passage:" Recently, one of my beginner clients went out and shot a 2.5” group at 700 yards with a lightweight Magnum in mild but gusting winds. What is more important, is that he now finds this sort of shooting relatively easy." You have to admire a fellow with that much confidence in his methods.
If you are using sandbags and holding the forearm, how do you recommend adjusting vertical point of aim? I have been using a rear bag and squeezing it with my 'crossed arm'.
Thank you all for the discussion, this has been very interesting to hear both sides.
Regards,
RickR
If you are using sandbags and holding the forearm, how do you recommend adjusting vertical point of aim? I have been using a rear bag and squeezing it with my 'crossed arm'.
Thank you all for the discussion, this has been very interesting to hear both sides.
Regards,
RickR
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Move non firing hand closer to body and/or stretch position, moving belt buckle rearward. Another approach is to raise sandbag height, since this sort of problem is caused by having too short a sandbag to start off with. Getting a satisfactory relationship between shooter, gun, and ground with the butt stock properly brought to the head when using too short a sandbag may prevent the barrel to point at an angle greater than horizontal if even that. So, if target is above a horizontal line of sight there is no ability to correct without reverting to bone alone, allowing the elbow's length as it is placed on the forend to control vertical sight picture.
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