Aw shit, next you're gonna tell us that we don't need to break in engines, either.
<loud Boomer noises>
- Thread starter Clayman
- Start date
Aw shit, next you're gonna tell us that we don't need to break in engines, either.
<loud Boomer noises>
I agree 100% that properly fit/finished pistols should not need break in, but unfortunately these days those are few and far between in the world of cost cutting, many guns do not receive proper fitting and finish and tolerances are allowed to have wider variances. Most run fine, the few that don't they leave it up to the owner to "break in" IE wear poorly finished/tolerance parts smooth and hope it fixes the problem, and many times it does and the manufacturer gets you to spend your time and $ doing it. Almost every major manufacturer now if you call them up with handgun reliability issues, they will tell you it just needs more "break in". Same is true if you complain about a handgun only running some ammo, most will tell you that's just the way it is. With 9mm there's a HUGE variation in bullet weight and charge across 9mm. Especially once ammo companies started loading range ammo extra soft to save $ the last few years. Heck even FN with the Scar 20s was telling people that they should only use one particular hornady 6.5 Creedmoor round for almost 2 years until they finally caved and started fixing the issue. Never has it been more true about not buying a gun the first couple years it's on the market than today, honestly these days 2 years might not even be enough time.
The only way you get out of the box reliability today is you either pay a lot of $ for tight tolerances that are well fit/finished (and even those have issues from time to time), or you buy something with very loose tolerances and hope they don't stack in a way that impacts reliability. Most polymer guns fit in the the later, of course they still shoot more accurately than 99.9% of their owners can. Sure design plays a part too, the early Sig 320 X-five's are a great example, the spring rate on the captured recoil spring was horrible. Guns would not go into battery because the resting spring rate was too weak, but also wouldn't cycle fully with soft range ammo. If you ran enough rounds through them the gun would run. Sig swapped to a solid rod running 1911 springs and the problem mysteriously disappeared. I don't think there's a gun forum I follow where I haven't seen people report that the manufacturer told them to just keep "breaking in" a problem gun. Glock, S&W, Springfield, Sig.....you name it. In general I've found the smaller the handgun is, the more likely it has reliability issues, or is picky about what ammo it likes.
Unfortunately in the case of 1911's, years ago some idiot started the trend that got customers thinking that tight slide/frame fit was how you judge 1911 "quality". When in reality it has almost nothing to do with accuracy and really only reduces reliability. As a result many mid/low manufacturers started trying to make slides fit tighter than their tolerances supported and lots of reliability issues quickly ensued. Still happens to this day. You almost can't read a 1911 thread and not see someone talk about how tight the slide/frame fit is.
My 1911 must be a lemon, no malfunctions out of the box 
But it's a DW, not a Springfield...
But it's a DW, not a Springfield...
x2.My 1911 must be a lemon, no malfunctions out of the box
But it's a DW, not a Springfield...
So every gun you ever bought is 100% reliable, and shoots to point of aim out of the box?
It also sounds like someone has been selling you used Glock mags. Every Glock mag I've used takes effort to get the last two rounds loaded for the first 2 or 3 loadings.
Sucks for me I bought two Staccatos this year including the XC
Why does it suck for you ?
I bought a P DPO a year ago…mounted an RMR on it and sent it in for some upgrades with the blending of the safeties and lighten trigger.
It runs great…..perhaps my best performing handgun.
That being said…..whatever SA does has no bearing on my P DPO and how well it’s performing.
That’s true and I wouldn’t be satisfied with a SA. That said, I don’t love the XC and it’s a good $1300 overpriced, easy. Fools and their money though…
I'm pretty sure you don't understand what tolerances are. No, make that I'm absolutely sure.
Also, did you miss the part that I haven't bought a pistol that needed break in yet?
Every handgun, yes.
I wouldn't know. I don't use iron sights. Either way, adjusting sights is not a part of break in. The fucking factory can't zero them for each individual person. Don't move the goal posts.
Brand fucking new ones. Either in the box with the pistol or straight out of the package. It sounds like you can't consider that you might be wrong. Or maybe you just need stronger hands.
Have you ever owned a Les Baer?
Put the first rounds through it ?
There most assuredly is a break-in period with hard fit pistols.
That is one of the few cases I have encountered.
Every Colt, Glock, Sig, Nighthawk, Wilson Combat, Staccato and Dan Wesson I own has run great from the first round onward.
EDIT: never mind. Just went back and read your prior posts. You don’t 1911. I guess I must be one of the “Fudd” people who does.
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Why do you take this personally?
It doesn't bother me in the least that you like 1911s. Why does it bother you that I don't?
So I handled a really nice double stack 9mm 1911/2011 about a month ago. Guy in town makes them. It was sooo nice. Ported, red dot, sweet trigger, holds 24 rounds.... He says I can have one for $3,900. It's sweet, but no way. The Springfield at $1,600 is pretty nice. But its not ported and reports of them not running...? That kind of sucks.
And after much thought I have decided that I already have what I want, and it is actually better. Mine is 9mm, double stack has a rail on the front AND it's DA/SA. Also has a decocker. Pull the trigger and hear a click? Pull again. No red dot though. And it costs about $400.
$1,000 buys a lot of bullets powder and primers. I'll just keep shooting and training.
And after much thought I have decided that I already have what I want, and it is actually better. Mine is 9mm, double stack has a rail on the front AND it's DA/SA. Also has a decocker. Pull the trigger and hear a click? Pull again. No red dot though. And it costs about $400.
$1,000 buys a lot of bullets powder and primers. I'll just keep shooting and training.
Ignorance is bliss
It seems like all of the 2011 type pistols need tweaking to keep them going or work out issues. There are exceptions like the Atlas or other high end models. My friends Atlas is nice...really nice. I just can't justify spending $6500 on a pistol. The fit and feel of that pistol is amazing. It should be for the price. I think it's cool they came out with some 2011 models at a decent price point. Problem is that most people have no idea what it takes to keep pistols like this running or get them to run.
I like the 1911 platform for shooting, but the modern pistols just work. I have never had an issue with any of my Glocks or HK pistols. No mag loading problems, no malfunctions. Mags can wear out or other parts. No big deal. Having to tune the feed lips on mags or constantly replace springs seems like a waste for something at the prices these 2011 type pistols cost. Even my 1911 is a little picky on mags that it likes. It seems to work with most but the 10 rounders always seem to have first round feed issues no matter the brand. I just run 8 round mags now.
My LAPD buddy is in the first LE unit to adopt the Staccato pistols. They do high risk warrant type things and deal with the worst of the worst. Each officer had to buy their pistol for a $2000 price with 5 mags. All of them have had mag issues from the get go. He says the top round of the mag will fall out when doing a "tactial" reload. If the mag is dropped vertically the round will not get stuck, but retaining the mag with the pistol at an angle causes the issues. They contacted Staccato about the issue and they told the unit they had a new mag design and they could buy the new ones at $80 each. He said almost the whole unit basically shelved their pistols and went back to Glock or their special "Long Beach" Springfield 1911's. LAPD won't allow their force to sell them private party. What really pissed them off was how they used their purchase as a marketing campaign to get more LE sales. Then when they had issues Staccato basically told them to pound sand.
I like the 1911 platform for shooting, but the modern pistols just work. I have never had an issue with any of my Glocks or HK pistols. No mag loading problems, no malfunctions. Mags can wear out or other parts. No big deal. Having to tune the feed lips on mags or constantly replace springs seems like a waste for something at the prices these 2011 type pistols cost. Even my 1911 is a little picky on mags that it likes. It seems to work with most but the 10 rounders always seem to have first round feed issues no matter the brand. I just run 8 round mags now.
My LAPD buddy is in the first LE unit to adopt the Staccato pistols. They do high risk warrant type things and deal with the worst of the worst. Each officer had to buy their pistol for a $2000 price with 5 mags. All of them have had mag issues from the get go. He says the top round of the mag will fall out when doing a "tactial" reload. If the mag is dropped vertically the round will not get stuck, but retaining the mag with the pistol at an angle causes the issues. They contacted Staccato about the issue and they told the unit they had a new mag design and they could buy the new ones at $80 each. He said almost the whole unit basically shelved their pistols and went back to Glock or their special "Long Beach" Springfield 1911's. LAPD won't allow their force to sell them private party. What really pissed them off was how they used their purchase as a marketing campaign to get more LE sales. Then when they had issues Staccato basically told them to pound sand.
Top round dropping out is considered normal for sub-cal .45 sized magazines, definitely a weakness of the platform vs. one designed around the 9mm cartridge.
That said, my Gen 3 magazines ($70 retail price) don’t exhibit this behavior with live ammunition. The next round certainly gets pushed forward, but I haven’t seen it drop rounds like it does with snap caps. Anecdotal reports from various denizens of the internet suggest Staccato is swapping older mags with functional issues, YMMV.
That said, my Gen 3 magazines ($70 retail price) don’t exhibit this behavior with live ammunition. The next round certainly gets pushed forward, but I haven’t seen it drop rounds like it does with snap caps. Anecdotal reports from various denizens of the internet suggest Staccato is swapping older mags with functional issues, YMMV.
Nothing bothers me that you don't like 1911's.
Simply pointing out that the "break-in" comments you made were not all inclusive.......then I went back and read some of your prior comments and saw that your experience was likely based on non-1911, non-thumb safety guns.
You like what you like. Nothing wrong with that.
Thankfully we are afforded many options in the USA and hopefully it will remain that way. I very much enjoy shooting 2011s & strikers....but almost always have a 1911 IWB.
If I were going to a 3-Gun.....or going to war......I'd certainly be grabbing one of the 2011s.
Going out to handle daily bidness.....a 1911 IWB is both comforting....and comfortable....just have to take a more spare mags, lol.
I've had this Staccato P DPO for about a year now.
I've shot the cowboy shyt out of it.
It's never missfed. Not once. Never failed to eject. Loaded fine from every slide lock release.....and every slingshot.
The magazines were something I was skeptical about when I bought it. Have yet to have an issue.
That being said, my mags are Gen2, Gen3 and later.
I don't know what all was done to them to constitute various generations....but they have worked with Glock-like consistency. That is a huge compliment. I've yet to have an issue with a factory Glock mag in the 30 years I've shot with them.
My single gripe over the gun was the fact I'd get a raw bloody blister in the web of my shooting hand during extended range sessions. It seems to be a fairly common gripe amount Staccato shooters.
They used thumb safeties with blunt edges.
I called and spoke with them...then they followed up with an email. They said they could remedy the problem for almost $500....with shipping to/from included.
I declined and said that spending an additional $500 on a pistol that costs what those do....to fix a problem that was created by using poorly chosen parts that nobody else in the industry used was ridiculous.
I kept shooting the gun....and built up and maintaining the callous, lol.
A couple months went by and out of the blue I got a call from a really friendly gal with Staccato....their new "customer experience" manager.
She wanted to "fix" my gun for me....no charge. She put me on the phone with one of their smiths....he gave me the run down over what he would be doing and an rma ticket was made.
I boxed it up, taped on the label and dropped it off at the corner CVS pharmacy nearby...of all places. UPS/FedEx/SantasElves picked it up from there.
Two weeks later the friendly gal called me back and said it was all taken care of and my gun would be back at my FFL in two days.
It was.
I was also absolutely perfect.
Gone was the flat-edged safety. Now some really nicely radius parts were onboard....DLC coated. The trigger was clean & lighter.
I couldn't have been more happy.
My current gripe, however, is that I was told by the folks there the parts they put on my gun would be going on the production guns in 2022.
That doesn't appeared to have been the case.
Not bitching, though.....I simply couldn't be happier with my sample size of one. This gun is accurate as hell and runs a stupid fast rate of fire and remains flat and smooth.
If I could somehow shake loose the coin, I'd love to have a C2 with RMR, but I want the same exact safeties that are in my current P DPO in it.
My longwinded reply was intended to say that, at times, I see some genius in the Staccato products.......but the way they are managing strikes me as a how a new company finds its way.....through missteps and floundering.
Maybe they are getting the right people onboard and are making a run at it.
Hard to say.
I'm sorta limited in experience with 2011 guns. I have the one above and a NHC TRS-Comp that I've yet to even mount the RMR on for some reason....namely that I enjoy shooting the Staccato so much that it keeps eating up all my ammo.
Except it's not a new company. As STI they had a good thing going. Then they went to shit, pissed off and alienated their entire customer base, then renamed as Staccato and rebranded as a 'tactical' company and appear to be up to the same old shenanigans.
After shooting competitively for 20 years I can confidently say the 1911/2011 platforms have the most issues. There seems to be a new crowd that just discovered the 2011 that hasn't figured it out yet. Now the old players are trying to be new players while still doing their old things. SA makes garage 1911's, it's a story as old as time. John Wick 3 won't fix SA's horrible quality. What's old is new.
Shooting competitively is like having a crystal ball. Whatever the timmy's are shitting on/ignoring right now is what they'll be bonering about in 4-8 years.
I still remember when LPVO's were only suitable for "game guns" and red dots on pistols was the pinnacle of "get you kilt in tha streetz!" hardware.
So what's interesting to me about this is the volume of posts that say STI/Staccato prices are crazy high, maybe for some models? Don't get me wrong I'm not a fan of them the last STI I bought was a Marauder and I wasn't impressed with the fit/finish especially on internal parts, and trigger quality was good but nothing special, but it has been reliable, though I've seen plenty of them that were not.
Yet I see several sites selling vanilla P models for $2k, that's not much more than the Prodigy especially if the trigger, fit and finish are superior as some have reported. It seems to bring everything to the table and more than the Prodigy does. You'd spend at least $500 with a good 1911 smith these days to do a trigger/tune job.
Yet I see several sites selling vanilla P models for $2k, that's not much more than the Prodigy especially if the trigger, fit and finish are superior as some have reported. It seems to bring everything to the table and more than the Prodigy does. You'd spend at least $500 with a good 1911 smith these days to do a trigger/tune job.
The Prodigy is going to be the IKEA furniture of the 2011 segment. Under the faux wood photo paper is particle board waiting to swell up at the first sign of humidity.
The highest priced Staccato 2011 has a retail MSRP of $4300.
“Firearm break in” seems to be a touchy subject; so I’ll throw my opinion in the fire.
I don’t view any firearm as needing “break in” to function. What I do believe, is that there is a period, where over numerous cycles the firearm exponentially functions smoother. The surfaces become polished and cause less friction thus moving easier.
This has been apparent with numerous AI’s. At about 1000 cycles the bolt feel is significantly better than straight out of the box, because there is wear on the bolt body and bolt lug coatings.
This has also been very apparent with Glocks. Simply performing a $0.25 cent trigger job is the biggest improvement one can make to a factory Glock trigger system. This mimics wear over time by polishing contact points between pieces
This has also been very apparent with the 92’s. Comparing a Beretta to a Wilson Combat 92 Centurion and a Wilson Combat 92 Centurion to a Wilson Combat Custom shop gun. The only difference is polished internals which would happen naturally over time.
I don’t view any firearm as needing “break in” to function. What I do believe, is that there is a period, where over numerous cycles the firearm exponentially functions smoother. The surfaces become polished and cause less friction thus moving easier.
This has been apparent with numerous AI’s. At about 1000 cycles the bolt feel is significantly better than straight out of the box, because there is wear on the bolt body and bolt lug coatings.
This has also been very apparent with Glocks. Simply performing a $0.25 cent trigger job is the biggest improvement one can make to a factory Glock trigger system. This mimics wear over time by polishing contact points between pieces
This has also been very apparent with the 92’s. Comparing a Beretta to a Wilson Combat 92 Centurion and a Wilson Combat 92 Centurion to a Wilson Combat Custom shop gun. The only difference is polished internals which would happen naturally over time.
After shooting three gun for many years I can confidently say that the Benelli M2 has the most issues.
A deeper diving in a statement reveals it's also the most popular shotgun just like the 2011 is the most popular handgun. The Benelli is "tuned" by owners to run with the least amount of recoil just like a 2011 is. It's the equivalent to saying a Chevy V8 is unreliable because after a 500 mile NASCAR race they rebuild the motor.
In Fudd defense, the red dots at the time would've gotten you killed in the streets. Burris fastfires were basically disposable and anybody who had a Cmore carried five extra LED modules on them at all times and enough batteries to power a household of 4 during a heatwave
The 2011 hasn't been the most common platform in any shooting sport ever. You might show up to a specific division nationals event where the 2011 is over represented for that weekend but that is an exception.
True, but someone was using and breaking the dots of the time forcing manufacturers to up their game. And we know who that was.
Sorry, I'll spell it out better.
In a division where it's allowed and among shooters actually competing (not your local match where someone shows up with an mk23 they just bought), the the 2011 is the most common gun. Obviously it isn't popular in carry optics, production, or PCC.
Completely agree. Almost like the 2011s of yesteryear made more reliable 2011 of today.....
Why?
Yeah, an AI or other quality bolt/gun/etc. may wear in and be smoother over time, BUT it is reliable out of the box. Guns that require “breaking in” are not reliable from the factory. Thats the difference.
The Glocks I’ve had are reliable out of the box, but the trigger definitely feels a bit better after a few thousand presses.
Kinda like pants. Good pants are going to hold up from the store, but they can definitely fit better after some wear and wash cycles.
We are on the same page; which is why I said “I don’t view any firearm as needing “break in” to function.”
Ahh, engines.
I stopped reading at”gobs of ceracoat”. The implication is astounding.
Something else to consider about the function of new firearms is the importance of proper lubrication. Many guns ship with just enough oil to prevent corrosion, and I've seen some come out of the box with visible contamination. I think that much of what people consider to be "break in" is more like "it ran like dogshit until I finally cleaned and lubed it after the first few hundred miserable rounds, and now it's OK".
1911s in particular are not going to tolerate improper lubrication. If someone is a use-one-drop-of-Marvel-3-in-1 type, they're gonna have a bad day.
1911s in particular are not going to tolerate improper lubrication. If someone is a use-one-drop-of-Marvel-3-in-1 type, they're gonna have a bad day.
One of my most reliable handguns is a 1911 el-cheapo (remmy made para-ord) in 45.
Rattles a bit, real loose fit. Had it since new. I did a trigger job after maybe 50 rounds coz it sucked. But otherwise, stock. And changed sights for some nice novak ones.
Super reliable on any ammo and almost any mag. (Slide hold open, or OLD weirdo janky super capacity things). It just keeps going. I put it down to 1911 superiority in design, external safety, and being so loose with its fit it cant physically jam.
Plus keeping it lubed up like the cheap whore it is..
Rattles a bit, real loose fit. Had it since new. I did a trigger job after maybe 50 rounds coz it sucked. But otherwise, stock. And changed sights for some nice novak ones.
Super reliable on any ammo and almost any mag. (Slide hold open, or OLD weirdo janky super capacity things). It just keeps going. I put it down to 1911 superiority in design, external safety, and being so loose with its fit it cant physically jam.
Plus keeping it lubed up like the cheap whore it is..
A friend once had a Glock he had literally gotten out of the box, loaded, and put in the night stand. Don’t remember the model, but it was the full sized .40.
6 months later we were shooting and he breaks it out. Damn thing jammed every 2-3 rounds, which was pissing him off because he’s a Glock guy and my Kimber was running like a sewing machine.
I took it, hosed it down with Rem Oil (I know, I know) wiped it off, and said Glock went to running like it should.
I learned a couple things that day, one of which was I shoulda offered him $150 for his “piece of shit” Glock!
6 months later we were shooting and he breaks it out. Damn thing jammed every 2-3 rounds, which was pissing him off because he’s a Glock guy and my Kimber was running like a sewing machine.
I took it, hosed it down with Rem Oil (I know, I know) wiped it off, and said Glock went to running like it should.
I learned a couple things that day, one of which was I shoulda offered him $150 for his “piece of shit” Glock!
If that doesn't just make you want to run right out and buy one...
I had a set of driveshafts built by a local shop when I converted my van to 4WD. There's about a dozen grease fittings (double Cardens on both shafts, plus slip yokes), and the shop recommends hitting them with a grease gun every 2500 miles. Lube it that often, and it'll last damn near forever. Don't, and you'll be replacing those U-joints every year. Compare this to a factory driveshaft with sealed U-joints or CVs, where it gets run maintenance-free for maybe 10-15 years and 100-200k miles.
One of those experiences is closer to a 1911, the other to a Glock. Experienced firearms enthusiasts know which is which; inexperienced ones will usually have to learn on their own.
I don't think 1911/2011's need any breaking in... but most do need tuning if you want them to run. They're far from my first choice as a "work gun" because they absolutely require more attention than others, and shitty parts and/or poor fitment (which sometimes means too tight) exasperate this.
They're not for everyone, and some of the companies making them don't even seem to know how to get them to work most of the time (sadly I'm looking at you Springfield).
I'm sure most of these guns will be fine once one rips out all the fire control stuff, throws it in the trash, replaces it with real shit, changes all the springs, and tunes the extractors. Honestly, the magazines being tricky or not isn't nearly as bad as it once was and is usually not the main problem nowadays.
Tuning a 1911/2011 requires a human, using a human makes it hard to hit a price-point.
They're not for everyone, and some of the companies making them don't even seem to know how to get them to work most of the time (sadly I'm looking at you Springfield).
I'm sure most of these guns will be fine once one rips out all the fire control stuff, throws it in the trash, replaces it with real shit, changes all the springs, and tunes the extractors. Honestly, the magazines being tricky or not isn't nearly as bad as it once was and is usually not the main problem nowadays.
Tuning a 1911/2011 requires a human, using a human makes it hard to hit a price-point.
There is no dimension on a 1911, 2011, or really any modern commercial firearm that cannot be achieved with acceptable process capability when using modern equipment and best practices. Everyday things like automatic transmissions and power steering pumps have far more stringent requirements for dimensional capability.
The problems arise when the design engineering is faulty, or when the appropriate process isn't put into place. Or both, in many cases.
The original 1911 was the product of an all-time great engineer. We should be able to agree that it was a good design because several companies that weren't firearms manufacturers managed to build a ton of 'em during wartime. Then a bunch of midwits bastardized the design without understanding the original intentions behind so many details, and now we find ourselves in a bit of a mess.
The problems arise when the design engineering is faulty, or when the appropriate process isn't put into place. Or both, in many cases.
The original 1911 was the product of an all-time great engineer. We should be able to agree that it was a good design because several companies that weren't firearms manufacturers managed to build a ton of 'em during wartime. Then a bunch of midwits bastardized the design without understanding the original intentions behind so many details, and now we find ourselves in a bit of a mess.
Exactly as @E. Bryant said. How did the 1911 pass war trials so long, and so successfully ? It took years to better the design.
Im also stealing you drive shaft story, purely as a lesson to get people to service their gear. My current story goes:
So you go out and buy a shiney new tool, like a work site battery drill or whatever. The instruction say dont let the battery run super flat, and use original not chicom brand, keep it clean and periodically blow out the chuck and motor with air, etc.. guess what you do ?
Dont complain your tool sucks because you didnt look after it.
Im also stealing you drive shaft story, purely as a lesson to get people to service their gear. My current story goes:
So you go out and buy a shiney new tool, like a work site battery drill or whatever. The instruction say dont let the battery run super flat, and use original not chicom brand, keep it clean and periodically blow out the chuck and motor with air, etc.. guess what you do ?
Dont complain your tool sucks because you didnt look after it.
Similar to your story. Buddy of mine build a P80, whatever is smaller that a G19, with a G19 slide and barrel on it. Made a couple shots and jammed. Jammed a bunch. He pulled the slide off and while we were looking at it I noticed it was DRY, like no oil ever. Pulled the dipstick on my truck and put a litte full synthetic 5w20 on it. Worked great. No more jams and ran sweet. He said "but now it stinks". Blasting used engine oil might do that.
Well, for starters there was a much higher acceptable failure rate back in World War One. The 1911 also had much higher allowable tolerances and were made using different materials and processes than today. The 1911 is a secondary weapon and was never designed to go 5k rounds without a stoppage. In contrast, modern pistols have lower acceptable stoppage rates.
Arguably there were better pistols during the 1911's time in US service. It didn't take long to better the design, John Browning died and the US had no desire to change what it considered a support weapon. FN released the Hi-Power in 1935 and it is, by all modern standards, a better pistol than the 1911.
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