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Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

JC Steel

JC Steel

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Oct 12, 2008
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Washington State
I guess Bryan Litz turned the design in for the new Berger 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid bullet. And thus I am going to need a super long range 7mm rifle sooner rather than later!!!

It has an estimated averaged G1 BC of .794 and a G7 BC of .406. For those who understand such things this bullet has a G7 form factor of .850. For those who don't know what that means it means that this bullet is the slickest (in terms of velocity retention) on the planet.

Bryan has relayed that this bullet at an estimated 1.637" long will need at least a 1:8.5" twist to be stabilized.

this from the horses mouth!!
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

SHITTT! Might need to get a different barrel for the 7saum Im waiting on the reamer for!
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Nahh, you will be able to shoot that one out before the 195's become available to mortals.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jcvibby</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess Bryan Litz turned the design in for the new Berger 7mm 195 gr EOL Hybrid bullet. And thus I am going to need a super long range 7mm rifle sooner rather than later!!!

<span style="font-weight: bold">It has an estimated averaged G1 BC of .794 and a G7 BC of .406. For those who understand such things this bullet has a G7 form factor of .850. For those who don't know what that means it means that this bullet is the slickest (in terms of velocity retention) on the planet.</span>

Bryan has relayed that this bullet at an estimated 1.637" long will need at least a 1:8.5" twist to be stabilized.

this from the horses mouth!! </div></div>

Wow! very impressive.

What would be an ideal case to launch this bullet? The twist makes it a custom proposition only.

This G7 form factor also means that it deviates quite a bit from the G7 drag model, and several BCs may be needed to fit the trajectory well...
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Wow, I guess my badger M2008 7mmRM will be getting another barrel cut for these when they come out.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

My saum may need an upgrade as well. My Rock barrel is just outside the recommended at 8.7

May still give them a go...
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

I think the design has only been submitted but they havent even produced the bullet yet.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

If they are half as good as the 215 and 230gr hybrids this should be a great bullet.

The oal is only .020 shorter than the 230 hybrids I tested!
9d526772.jpg
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Essential</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If they are half as good as the 215 and 230gr hybrids this should be a great bullet.

The oal is only .020 shorter than the 230 hybrids I tested!
9d526772.jpg
</div></div>

Man, that 215 and 230 look like cruise missles. Long! Makes me lust for a .300WM or RUM really bad now!
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Great news,i've got a 7mmRM Improved that is getting a barrel upgrade with a Broughton 5C 8:0 twist at Longrifles Inc.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Gathering parts for my 7mm SAUM, already planned on a 1-8.5" twist for the 180 Hybrids. Hopefully I can play with the 195's when they come out.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Ok, here is a look at some numbers. Lets assume we can launch one of these Berger 195 that are coming out at a muzzle velocity of 2800fps. The bullet length is 1.637in. I live at around 850' elevation. On a 30 degree day with 0% humidity and pressure 30.30, then according to Ballistic FTE a 1 in 8.5 twist gives the Berger 195 a Miller stability of only 1.35, which is less than the 1.4 that Bryan Litz recommends as a minimum. It would have to be 50F to get the air thin enough for these to meet his defintion of a good margin of stability. For the 1 in 9, I dont think a miller value of 1.4 is possible.

A 1 in 8 twist would give me the ability to acheive a Miller stability value of 1.4 all the way down to 0F and mrore. Not sure I could get the velocity to 2800 at that temp but my point is IF this bullet is 1.63in long, most of us who don't live in Denver may want to consider a 1 in 8.

All that being said, any miller value above 1 means it is supposed to be stable, but Mr Litz suggests 1.4 as a minimum.

So, for one in the process of build a 7saum, any reason not to get a 1 in 8 twist barrel? Is the fact that a 162 amax out of a 1 in 8 barrel at 3000fps has over 270,000RPM on it a bad thing?
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Will be interesting to see how this bullet performs. Would be pretty wicked out of a 7STW or Mashburn Super...
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

KY:

I don't know about that miller stability formula, and or the 1.4 minimum. My Sako TRG42 with 1-12 barrel, launching 300smk @ 2650 on a cold day provides ~1.0 stability factor. They shoot great.

That said, I'd choose a 1-8 for your 7mm. No reason in the world not to.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Does anyone think the 195 hybrids would work in an 8.5 twist barrel and 284 win., or does the cartrige have to be a 7mm mag or short mag version?
Thanks

DS
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

It will work fine in a 284. You might not be able to push them but 2650 but it still beats just about everything else in the wind even at that speed.

Dustin
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

I went with 1 in 8.5. If they come out I'll shoot them when it is cold and see what they do, they should stabilize but wont have as much margin. I know they will be fine in warmer weather....at least according to the formulas.

I didn't want to have so much rpm on the lighter bullets that I risked blowing them up. I dont know what rpm a ballitic tip, amax or berger comes apart but getting up around 300,000 rpm is up there.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does anyone think the 195 hybrids would work in an 8.5 twist barrel and 284 win., or does the cartrige have to be a 7mm mag or short mag version?
Thanks

DS</div></div>

Dustin is right, the barrel twist has a lot more effect on the stability than the muzzle velocity...going to the 8.5 twist will do more for stability than pushing them at magnum speeds in a 9 twist.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

8.5 may work but why take the chance strate 8 twist is the way to go I believe.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

I hope they show up with a thick jacket. Guys, including me, are going to sling these things at 3,200-3,400 fps from a 7 / 338LM.

Jeffvn
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

If you really can boost these to 3300fps then where I live (900msl) you would get to 1000 yds with 5 mil drop, 1 mil drift@10mph, 2 mils drift at a mile, supersonic to 2300 yards.

Sick!

It would actually have a little more energy at a mile than the standard 300smk 338LM load.

Barrel life would be gross but it would be real hard to beat those numbers!
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Barrels are consumable, just like bullets, powder, and primers (but I don't want to get close to a 1:1 ratio of bullets to barrels. I think anything in the 500:1 ratio would be fine though for a rifle that can sling a pill like this one can)

3,300 fps, sick elevation and wind holds. And that my friend is why folks do it.
smile.gif
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Yep. Hope we all get to try these. Bryan said the manufacturing would be difficult. I hope they pull it off.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

What would it take to shoot this pill from a .338lm cartridge.
What would the load data be. If spanked sounds like my new gun
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Well now my swicth barrel rig is in the works. Have a 338 Norma XR being built. Then the second barrel is a 7/338 Morma XR.

It is a 338 with a 35 degree shoulder, this helps with extraction when pushed hard.

I have on a bolt gun using a seekins bottom I will have tons of room in the magazine.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">KY:

I don't know about that miller stability formula, and or the 1.4 minimum. My Sako TRG42 with 1-12 barrel, launching 300smk @ 2650 on a cold day provides ~1.0 stability factor. They shoot great.

That said, I'd choose a 1-8 for your 7mm. No reason in the world not to. </div></div>I'm waiting on my Bartlein barrel. I ordered it in 7mm (SAUM) with a 1:8.5 twist. You say no reason not to use 1:8.

So 1:8 won't be a problem with the 180 VLD's? Those are the only other bullets I'd use in this gun.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Will the 162 AMAX have any problems being shot out of a 1:8"?
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goatphius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will the 162 AMAX have any problems being shot out of a 1:8"? </div></div>

I've figured not- I'm getting an 8 twist for my 7-08 with that bullet in mind.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goatphius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will the 162 AMAX have any problems being shot out of a 1:8"? </div></div>

I've figured not- I'm getting an 8 twist for my 7-08 with that bullet in mind. </div></div>Thanks.

I've sent a message to Bartlein about whether they think I should change my 1:8.5 spec to a 1:8.25 or 1:8.

It may not matter much since I'm going to have my 7mm SAUM throat cut pretty deep for the 180 VLD's anyway. That might be more of a roadblock to using the A-max than spinning them up at 3000 fps...
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

I have a 1:9 but I have to give them a try. The calculator says they will just work where I am.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeffvn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hope they show up with a thick jacket. Guys, including me, are going to sling these things at 3,200-3,400 fps from a 7 / 338LM.

Jeffvn </div></div>

I hope they do too.

I was talking to lester Bruno in the pits at Ben Avery a few years back about his 7mm/338L. He tried working up loads with 180's and couldn't take advantage of the extra speed the cartridge produced. Wasn't accurate at the hyper velocities and he would loose a bullet here and there.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

A friend of mine has a 7.2 twist Obermeyer on his 7 WSM. Somehow word got out that he had this rifle and he received a phone call from a custom bullet maker that has a 190 gr 7mm bullet in the works. Looks like I may be the test dummy on this rig.

More to follow once we have them in hand.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: holdthatcow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Matrix does a 190, Wild cat did do a 200 gr. I have 250 of them very long bullet. Will try do pics soon. </div></div>

Bob Cauterucio has been making a 189gr bullet for several years as well. The only reason to get fired up about a heavy for 7mm caliber is the hybrid design. Hope Berger makes this happen.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A friend of mine has a 7.2 twist Obermeyer on his 7 WSM. Somehow word got out that he had this rifle and he received a phone call from a custom bullet maker that has a 190 gr 7mm bullet in the works. Looks like I may be the test dummy on this rig.

More to follow once we have them in hand. </div></div>

Please keep us posted on this...

Why do I already have excuses to find a way to use these things?
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

OK - they are cutting edge bullets 192s. Saw them today. Lathe turned. Drilled hollowpoint.

REALLY LONG bearing surface; not sure how they can have a high BC honestly, but I'm no ballistician.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eracer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wannashootit</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goatphius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will the 162 AMAX have any problems being shot out of a 1:8"? </div></div>

I've figured not- I'm getting an 8 twist for my 7-08 with that bullet in mind. </div></div>Thanks.

I've sent a message to Bartlein about whether they think I should change my 1:8.5 spec to a 1:8.25 or 1:8.

It may not matter much since I'm going to have my 7mm SAUM throat cut pretty deep for the 180 VLD's anyway. That might be more of a roadblock to using the A-max than spinning them up at 3000 fps... </div></div>Bartlein said the 1:8.5 barrel would handle the new 195's for anything I might encounter here in Florida. But they acknowledged that if I can bump the new bullets up against 3000fps that a 1:8.25 twist would be right in the sweet spot. They also said that if I pushed a 162gr. bullet >3000fps out of a 1:8 twist, that I might have some problems.

I had them change my barrel from 1:8.5 to 1:8.25, just to have a little headroom.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lance Criminal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any updates? </div></div>

Likely not going to hear anything newer than "dies are on order".

Berger is owned by a larger machining conglomerate that gets them on the inside track for bullet making dies. This means that once the heads at Berger say "buy it" the lead time is a measly 9-12 months for a set of production dies, as opposed to the industry "standard" of 18-22 months.

That still doesn't include machine setup, initial run, prototype testing, and finally launch sales.

2 years is a reasonable time to expect to see it from the time that they've actually cut a PO for dies. To date, we've only heard that Mr. Litz submitted the design and that's it.

For what it's worth, guys lining up to get 7 WSM, 7 RM, and other 7mm mags with 8.5, 8.25, 8tw barrels on them ahead of time would be well suited to have a 9tw barrel spun up while they're at it so that by the time the 2 years goes by they aren't limping along a barrel that's on its last legs to try a bullet that MIGHT be out in production and available for the general public by that time.

I don't shoot my 7/300 WSM very much and I'm halfway through the expected barrel life in a year. If this was my 6.5CM barrel only going 2000rd-2500rd I'd be on a 5 month replacement plan.

I'm anxiously looking forward to seeing and trying these things too, but coming back every 2 weeks hoping to hear something new is going to be a LOOONG wait. Jeff's guess above where he says "if we're really lucky, spring 2013 would be great" is a highly optimistic date that I'd be happy to see happen.
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

Eric Stecker from Berger, quoted from another forum:
link
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A few thoughts from the horse's mouth on the 7mm 195 gr.

The bullet tooling is finished and has been tested with successful results. This means that we can make bullets that match the design dimensions, nothing more. We used prototype jackets since the length of the jacket we needed was not certain.

Now that the length of the jacket needed is known we have it in our schedule to make standard issue, J4 match grade jackets. The fact is that the election has us overwhelmed with demand. This means only that we can't get these jackets made tomorrow but they will be made soon.

Then, they will be sent to Bob and a few other folks (Kirby for one) to be tested and abused. If these tests prove to be positive then the bullets will be regularly available as soon as we make more (once the test results are confirmed). I won't BS you. This could take 2 to 12 month depending on what happens during the testing phase.

I'll remind everyone that this is a totally new concept. It is in fact not as close to the recently tested 270 cal 170 gr bullet as Bob posted about. The 170 gr is outside the norm but not nearly as much as the 195 gr. Having said that, the 270 cal 170 gr has performed well in abuse testing and is now going to terminal performance testing. The good news is that so far everything looks good.

Something to keep in mind about the 7mm 195 gr, we are making it with the idea in mind that it will be pushed hard in larger cases. The heavier weight and sleek design is a big leap forward in performance (if it works). In smaller cases much MV will be lost due to the heavy weight which may produce a wash in performance compared to 180 gr bullets.

I'll admit that this is a generalization based on no factual testing data at this time but I don't want anyone to think that we are creating the next lazer beam. It is still a bullet subject to all the same influences and physics realities as every other bullet.

Regards,
Eric
__________________
To strengthen your shooting skills go to the range.
To strengthen the shooting sports take a non-shooter with you.

Berger Bullets</div></div>

Here is a drawing from Bryan Litz:

http://appliedballisticsllc.com/7mm195_c.bmp [img:left]http://appliedballisticsllc.com/7mm195_c.bmp[/img]
 
Re: Super long range Berger 195 Hybrid!!!

So I guess they have not been released at Shot Show 2013.......
 
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