How does a shooting team make money? As for Wade, well you should really ask Wade that question.
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- Thread starter excaliber
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How does a shooting team make money? As for Wade, well you should really ask Wade that question.
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Surgeon Action???
I have no doubt that the people who remain employed there still give a shit. I simply question what it is that they give a shit about.
Then I suppose you and I will have to agree that the buyers of the company are now seeking to recoup their investment, that economic bottom-line and efficiency now take priority over service and customer care, and that there's more profit in selling rifles so the corporate attitude is now "Boo hoo" to the consumer.
I have no doubt that the people who remain employed there still give a shit. I simply question what it is that they give a shit about.
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Well as the old saying goes "haters gonna hate". I can tell you that one key individual I know over there personally is looking for surgeon to make the highest quality firearms at a fair price. They also are working on ways to deliver guns to customers in shorter time frames. This notion of it taking 6, 8, 12 months to build a gun that we have all accepted is not acceptable to them.
Now I have to bring this up. Can you buy an action from AI? No. Are they a bunch of assholes because you can't? No. Has the company gone into the ground because what's his name died? No. Pure internet bias here, sorry.
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I know you're just looking for a leg to stand on at this point but your logic is a bit flawed. Surgeon sold individual actions and has actions presold that it looks like they are canceling. AI has always only sold complete rifles, you've never been able to buy just an AI action. Had AI sold actions and up and decided they no longer wanted to do so and cancelled orders from 16 months ago then yes, they would be assholes.
AI doesn't have a huge backlog of customer orders for rifle actions, and has customer service and timeliness that makes Surgeon's pale in comparison. Surgeon may become something different than they were and eventually be successful at it, but the way they've managed it was bound to alienate some customers.
John
John
Surgeon Action???
I am judging the new Surgeon based on what it is doing, not by whatever future goals it chooses to profess on an Internet forum.
It's deceptive to draw the parallel between Surgeon and AI. Surgeon's employees never had to band together to save the company from bankruptcy. If you think Surgeon and AI have the same history, business model, business climate, customer base or economic obstacles to overcome, you are seriously mistaken.
And if Surgeon is now comparing itself to AI, it's being delusional.
Your cliches might ring true at Barf.com, but the audience here is more sophisticated than that.
I am judging the new Surgeon based on what it is doing, not by whatever future goals it chooses to profess on an Internet forum.
It's deceptive to draw the parallel between Surgeon and AI. Surgeon's employees never had to band together to save the company from bankruptcy. If you think Surgeon and AI have the same history, business model, business climate, customer base or economic obstacles to overcome, you are seriously mistaken.
And if Surgeon is now comparing itself to AI, it's being delusional.
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I like to do my research, buy my parts and hand pick a smith that I know will do the work to my expectations. I also do it this way because I prefer to piece a build together over time and not take a huge monetary hit all at once.
Regardless of what's going on with Surgeon's business model or employees...the fact of the matter is that they are no longer an option for me and probably a few other guys out there. IMHO, I'd rather deal with someone who will be proud of the parts they put their name on...not the fact that they are the only ones who can produce it and everyone else be damned. Hopefully they change their minds and they become available again...I'd like to have one.
Regardless of what's going on with Surgeon's business model or employees...the fact of the matter is that they are no longer an option for me and probably a few other guys out there. IMHO, I'd rather deal with someone who will be proud of the parts they put their name on...not the fact that they are the only ones who can produce it and everyone else be damned. Hopefully they change their minds and they become available again...I'd like to have one.
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In this small and close knit community, Surgeon basically built its reputation on putting its action on the line by supporting and sponsoring these guys. As with any competition, if I build brand A action but brand B compares theirselves then what better advertising can you get by consistently placing 1st 2nd or 3rd in these competitions?
I have no dog in this fight, I don't know anyone at Surgeon. Not to say Surgeon will be run in the ground, it may do very well for itself but it seems its going the way the rest of America is going. Gone is the little guy who knows the consumer by first name or knows and ask how the family is doing and now is the time for big machines and pumping out as much as possible so big profit can be made.
Don't get me wrong, I understand how business works but this company was special to a lot of consumers and competitors, I think a lot if people are upset just because change sucks. It's just unfortunate that SAC does not have the same outlook for the company that Preston may have had, from the outside looking in, it definitely doesn't look like they want to be involved in the community that made the company what it was in the first place.
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As long as the quality surgeon is known for remains the same with the new owner/builders, I don't really care about anything else. Just don't want to be paying for the Callahan name and end up with a zalinski rifle.
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Good shit right there. There is a correlation between a takeover/buy out and higher prices. Fuck that!!!!!
life goes on. buy a complete surgeon build from them or have one of AT LEAST 10 awesome builders on here put you one together with your choice of action.
and GO SHOOT
i guess its purdy evident which direction im going with it.
and GO SHOOT
i guess its purdy evident which direction im going with it.
Ok guys, thats enough bickering. Seems like none of us really know what exactly happened or whats gonna happen. I was just stating what Surgeon told me the other day when they called. I just feel they should have called me sooner and told me the truth. I left numerous emails and also no returned phone calls, thats what I`m pissed off about.
Regardless of how many other good builders there are, I hate to see one like Surgeon fade away.
To keep those Smiths from using someone else's action.
To the top. Lets hear more. Maybe they will see this.
I spoke to one of the techs in the shop in Prague, OK. He seemed really upset that they weren't allowed to get me the action I've been waiting on since nov 2012. He did say he was going to dig around a bit and get back to me to see what he could do/find out. I called up the "New owners" and got patched through to McMillian firearms. They basically told me that if I wanted my XL action the only thing they can do for me is build my rifle for me.
Personally, I have some loyalty to my gunsmith who's had my parts in his shop 2 years. I don't feel right asking him to send all my parts down to "Surgeon Rifles" and take work from him and send it to them just so I can have this action. I can build off another action. Just ass pain and extra cost to have to deal with the stock that's already been inletted.
I suppose I'd be more pissed if I didn't have other rifles to shoot while waiting…
Personally, I have some loyalty to my gunsmith who's had my parts in his shop 2 years. I don't feel right asking him to send all my parts down to "Surgeon Rifles" and take work from him and send it to them just so I can have this action. I can build off another action. Just ass pain and extra cost to have to deal with the stock that's already been inletted.
I suppose I'd be more pissed if I didn't have other rifles to shoot while waiting…
That may not be an option anyway. I asked them how much it would cost for them to build a rifle using my parts and their action and they didn't reply to the question.
I was with a very reputable Smith yesterday that has built literally hundreds of rifle for Preston, he has been waiting on a long action Surgeon more than a year, he called Preston himself and couldn't get a straight answer on when or if he would get this action and 3 more he has ordered. If he can't get a straight answer pretty soon he is just going to move on and put Surgeon in his rearview mirror and start using BAT. He thinks Surgeons day in the sun is over. So please guys lets move on, the best thing about our free economy is if there is a void in the market and there is money to be made you better believe someone will fill it!!
It would be great if someone from Surgeon could provide some encouraging words for all these guys on the hook for actions. What a crappy turn of events for Surgeon and their customers.
nothing yet...maybe I'm too optimistic
I agree with you, and I like the rifles I have with Surgeon actions. But I'll be using Defiance, or Bighorn for my next rifles. Adios!
and what you say is true because you jack off on SH 24 hours a day, Mr 25,000 posts? Get a life.
LMFAO....damn this thread is full of all sorts of win. SH is pretty damn entertaining lately. I like it I get info that I need and entertainment in one spot.
Surgeon Action???
... And you just joined the club.
I don't really have 25,000 posts. That's an inside joke: Frank awarded me thousands of extra posts because some people here like to talk about post count as if that means something.
... And you just joined the club.
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Less than a year ago I started buying parts for two rifles. I somehow stumbled onto a Surgeon long action with mag bolt face from bugholes.com. I was then talked into the Bat Tactical action for the 2nd rifle. I was so excited to finally have a Surgeon action for my build while optimistic about the Bat Tactical. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have ordered 2 Bat Tactical actions from Jamie at Wolf Precision. I am no action/rilfe expert but it is easily the smoothest action I have ever run.
Bat Tactical Actions - Wolf Precision
Bat Tactical Actions - Wolf Precision
i was with one of the McMillan folks last month and indeed it is true that Surgeon is focusing on selling complete rifles and not selling actions. He indicated they have a backlog of rifle builds and will focus on that. McMillan Rifles and Surgeon have consolidated their operations in a new facility in Phoenix and I stopped by there to drop off a rifle to have some work done it. Evidently they have made a considerable investment in new machines that supposedly are state of the art. Yes they have had personnel changes but that occurs with every merger/consolidation and I can speak from experience.
I understand but they could have least called and told me that if I waited until I was 90yrs old that there`s a chance I might get an action.
How long of a wait would Badger Actions be?
surgeon actions are good.......however there are other actions out there as good maybe better....
Absolutely. I get the feeling Defiance is really going to take off. Many folks on this forum have already dedicated their future builds to them. Judging by their team on the CNC machines...I think their only a few years away from getting into the very picky BR market.
I'm pissed at this scenario only because the Surgeon overflow has increased my BAT wait times!
Call BO and see. My guess is no longer than 2 months, assuming not in stock now.
Be ready for a 6-7 month wait with McMillan, though...
I agree, BAT is probably the most used action in the Benchrest world which says something about precision. I just wanted to try a Surgeon. I`m not saying Defiance is bad by no means but I`m going to send my money to BAT.
Oh well....I guess I'll just have to be content with sucking hind tit and continue shooting my Remington M700 actions and cry in my pillow at night because I can't shoot any groups from 1000 yards better than this:
https://flic.kr/p/mLJq7n
Woe is me!
https://flic.kr/p/mLJq7n
Woe is me!
How big is that white circle..................?????
Because history has shown........and if you have followed various industries, especialy the gun industry.............when they get bought out by someone larger..........they quality goes to shit. It happens every time. Some Holding company or fund manager wants to pad his short term profits beacuse he is going to be gone in two years. They can use the established eliete name to sell products that are inferior, at a higher profit margin.
They aren't brinign in new equipment to increase "efficency". They are doing it to up production (usualy at the sacrafice of quality & QC) so they can sell as much as they can before the Brand name becomes shit.
Anyone remmeber Pre-Remington Marlin? How about Dakota Arms? How about the Remington of old, not even 30 years ago? Look at a 870 or 700 from 20-25 years ago and look at one today......Its like night and day quality difference.
Small custom shops are usualy run by enthusists with a good pulse on the market and high attention to detail. Their company is made or broken on their reputation, not a bunch of full page adds in guns and ammo.
I don't know the owner, but I HATE it when they sell out to a big conglomerate. They get their money, maybe stay on as a consultant, but they company will go to shit. Why not sell it to another similar competetor who would like to grow their business? Why not let some of the long time employees band together, and take out a business loan? This ensures the legacy of your company will continue and you know its being run be people who have a vested interest in it's long term success. Not a short pump and dump to get venture capitalists and fund managers their short terms gains.
This is proven by their unwillingness to honor their commitments. They are telling their long standing and loyal customers, FUCK YOU we don't need you.
The truth is, Surgeon makes a good action, but there is not magic there. There is no magic in their builds either. There are 50 other smiths and shopes who can do just as good of a job for 1/2 the money.
People like the action. They don't like being forced to shell out and extra $2-3K to have surgeon build a gun than to have any other competent smith do it.
The only real winners here are the other action companies. They will eat up the market share, as most of the loyal base of surgeon will write them off. Give it 3 years and they either fold up shop, or sell off to someone else.
Surgeon Action???
And that is often the point of these kinds of buyouts: Cut costs, increase 'efficiency' (but keep its definition arbitrary), then sell a 'more profitable' company to make a quick return on investment.
Does anyone else see a contradiction between the new goal of selling more Surgeon rifles and the new business model which has nothing to do with Surgeon rifles?
And that is often the point of these kinds of buyouts: Cut costs, increase 'efficiency' (but keep its definition arbitrary), then sell a 'more profitable' company to make a quick return on investment.
Does anyone else see a contradiction between the new goal of selling more Surgeon rifles and the new business model which has nothing to do with Surgeon rifles?
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Companies that know their shit can scale up production without a decrease in quality. Small companies that don't know their shit can often do a half-decent job of hand-fitting/hand-sorting parts to make something that generally works (the uninformed masses usually incorrectly refer to this as "QC" when spouting the usual bullshit on forums), and then offering good customer service to fill any gaps in the manufacturing process that may have allowed defects to reach the customer. Guess which approach is far more common in the firearms industry?
It's that latter group which often suffers from a precipitous drop in quality after a buy-out, because the original owners haven't documented what works and what doesn't, the knowledge isn't passed along to the new owners (often because key individuals leave as a result of the buy-out), and the new owners certainly don't know enough to remedy the issues (or else they just would have started their own company).
Actualy it hardly EVERY works out that way. When most of the brain of the operation leaves, along with the driver of excellence...you will see a drop off. The focus shifts from making perfect guns to making as many as they can to increase revenues/profits.
If it was so easy, the orignional owner would have increased production and increased his revenue and profits. You do this through equipment, labor force, and supporting forces. Buying a bunch of new equipment doesn't mean shit if you don't have the same level of expertise running the machines. You can't just miricle Master level gun builders into existance. Most places it takes YEARS for an already competent smith to apprentice and gain the knowlegde, experince and wisdom to become a great and consistant builder.
So if there is a sudden increase of production, Where is it coming from? Are they hiring new labor (that is almost always underskilled/under experinced) and throwing them to the wolves? Did they hire more machine opperators, QC pros and customer service (who know the products inside and out) to help facilitate this growth?
When someone buys a Surgeon, they expect THE BEST. That is why they are paying $5K for something that other known quanitites sell for $3K. It needs to be perfect. That level of craftsmanship, attention to detail and quality control cannot just be reproduced by hiring more bodies and machines.
QC is the process of checking and ensuring everything is correct, BEFORE it leaves the shipping dock. It is also the process of checking/measuring/testing parts and materials before they enter the production cycle, ensuring they are acceptable. High Quality companies will send back defective OEM parts on the regular for not meeting the specs. They will also shitcan parts/guns that fail to meet their quality specs at the end of assembly. Shitty/mass-produced/soley profit driven(DING) companies will skimp here beacuse A. QC costs money in labor/time and B. It reduces the ammount of product that ships out per week. Before BCM started getting their own stripped uppers machined for them, they would return on avg 60% of their uppers for failing to meet spec. The manufacture is the same one producing your uppers for half the guns out there. Bushmaster or DPMS or RRA doesn't give a fuck if the reciever threads are off center and not concentric. They don't care about rough tool marks or oblong pin holes beacuse it will still fit together into another rifle that they make $30 profit off of after evertything is said and done.
How did Larue's explosion work out for him? Shit, he didn't even chance any of his designs and is still using rail systems and mounts that are fucking 12 year old designs. Price keeps going up, despite capital costs being recouped and hardly any new products released other than guns. Fuck buying barrels, lets make our own, its easy...............................
Same story different day. Nothing that hasn't already happened and been observed hundreds of times across many boutique industries.
If you really want to blow your little mind, take a look at the hi end fashon industry. There is no better example of the watering down of luxury products and using said reputation to market cheap shit to the masses. Jerome and Shequa living Channel and Gucci lifestyles on Wrangler/Levi budgets.
The brain of the operation IS still there ......
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And thats why they Merged with McMillian, which are also already vasty overpriced guns?
So what happens when the new overloard says "You NEED to increase production, or Your Bonus/Salary is tied to production?"
This is what happens when some fund manager or profit driver demands they get a recoup of their investment. They aren't there to break even, they are there to make a profit. Profits that are much higher than they would get from investing in the stock market.
There are internal and external drivers that force those kinds of decisions.
Its not as easy as having an owner/opperator who knows his long term stability, success of his company and repuation is based off every gun that goes out, and how his customers are treated.
The fact that they are telling people who have been waiting over a year for actions to piss off, is a good indicator of where their focus is and what they care about.
Building guns = More money. They already made more actions than guns. So convential wisdom would tell you, they will be building MORE guns. How can they build MORE guns in the same ammount of time without brining in new people or skimping on attention to deail and/or QC? A build that used to take the smith 18 hours now needs to be done in 12. What did those 6 hours represent?
[MENTION=7585]Cobracutter[/MENTION], bingo! Couldn't say it any better.
