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The US Oligarchy

Maggot

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Jul 27, 2007
    25,932
    29,225
    Virginia
    Though there are a couple of political references in the beginning of this video, it is not, fundamentally political and he references both sides. What is is, is the most insightful and accurate expose of what is happening to our country. When Chris Hedges speaks of the Oligarchy, he does not mean the 1%, he is speaking of the 1/100th of 1% who actually rule America. Read'em and weep.

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    You ever seen the Secret of Oz? It goes right along with this.


    Posted via Tapatalk HD for iPad
     
    Sad considering the power and wealth the elite rich hold could just as easily been used for selflessness instead.

    "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".
     
    Sad considering the power and wealth the elite rich hold could just as easily been used for selflessness instead.

    "And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

    I think they are trained from a young age to worship wealth and will do anything to preserve their wealth and power. Reminds me of how royals used to inbreed to keep their bloodlines "pure."

    They could literally become legends of history if they decided to put their vast wealth to an altruistic and selfless use. They could literally turn Africa into a 1st world country.

    ....but I don't think you amass vast sums of wealth like the .0001% by being generous. You do it by having no qualms about exploiting others and raping the earth in the most horrendous ways.

    And remember, 90% of billionaires inherited their wealth. They didn't work for sh*t.
     
    I thought you were posting about the paper from Northwestern/Princeton.

    http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/G...ens and Page 2014-Testing Theories 3-7-14.pdf


    US Is an Oligarchy Not a Democracy, says Scientific Study | Common Dreams

    A study, to appear in the Fall 2014 issue of the academic journal Perspectives on Politics, finds that the U.S. is no democracy, but instead an oligarchy, meaning profoundly corrupt, so that the answer to the study’s opening question, "Who governs? Who really rules?" in this country, is: "Despite the seemingly strong empirical support in previous studies for theories of majoritarian democracy, our analyses suggest that majorities of the American public actually have little influence over the policies our government adopts. Americans do enjoy many features central to democratic governance, such as regular elections, freedom of speech and association, and a widespread (if still contested) franchise. But, ..." and then they go on to say, it's not true, and that, "America's claims to being a democratic society are seriously threatened" by the findings in this, the first-ever comprehensive scientific study of the subject, which shows that there is instead "the nearly total failure of 'median voter' and other Majoritarian Electoral Democracy theories [of America]. When the preferences of economic elites and the stands of organized interest groups are controlled for, the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy."

    To put it short: The United States is no democracy, but actually an oligarchy.

    The authors of this historically important study are Martin Gilens and Benjamin I. Page, and their article is titled "Testing Theories of American Politics." The authors clarify that the data available are probably under-representing the actual extent of control of the U.S. by the super-rich:

    Economic Elite Domination theories do rather well in our analysis, even though our findings probably understate the political influence of elites. Our measure of the preferences of wealthy or elite Americans – though useful, and the best we could generate for a large set of policy cases – is probably less consistent with the relevant preferences than are our measures of the views of ordinary citizens or the alignments of engaged interest groups. Yet we found substantial estimated effects even when using this imperfect measure. The real-world impact of elites upon public policy may be still greater.

    Nonetheless, this is the first-ever scientific study of the question of whether the U.S. is a democracy. "Until recently it has not been possible to test these contrasting theoretical predictions [that U.S. policymaking operates as a democracy, versus as an oligarchy, versus as some mixture of the two] against each other within a single statistical model. This paper reports on an effort to do so, using a unique data set that includes measures of the key variables for 1,779 policy issues." That’s an enormous number of policy-issues studied.

    What the authors are able to find, despite the deficiencies of the data, is important: the first-ever scientific analysis of whether the U.S. is a democracy, or is instead an oligarchy, or some combination of the two. The clear finding is that the U.S. is an oligarchy, no democratic country, at all. American democracy is a sham, no matter how much it's pumped by the oligarchs who run the country (and who control the nation's "news" media). The U.S., in other words, is basically similar to Russia or most other dubious "electoral" "democratic" countries. We weren't formerly, but we clearly are now. Today, after this exhaustive analysis of the data, “the preferences of the average American appear to have only a minuscule, near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy.” That's it, in a nutshell.

    This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 License.
     
    Been here before, the 1900 - 1930 was much more oligarchical, these things ebb and flow with our history. I just stick to my Constitution, it will be around long after this trend.
     
    Been here before, the 1900 - 1930 was much more oligarchical, these things ebb and flow with our history. I just stick to my Constitution, it will be around long after this trend.

    doesnt said constitution demand that free men have duty to depose enemies of the free states such as the afore mentioned tyrannical oligarchs?
     
    It is very rare that I might agree with as many words as were spoken in those 23 minutes, but Mr. Hedges has it right. Having been a kid born, quite literally, on the wrong side of the tracks to having kept the company of the people vilified in the video I find the speakers reflecting my own experience. The idolization of the ruling class is part of what keeps them where they are. The public imagination imbues their character with noble ideals and keen intellects. I admit to once entertaining such notions myself. Eventually I found the truth to be a rather ugly thing. For much of America the quality of being in possession of vast sums of money, and perhaps a celebrity endorsement, are all that is required to allow for levitation just over and above our laws and to forfeit the contents of our pockets.

    Having enjoyed a colorful childhood in a city celebrated for its debauchery I was hardly prepared for the drop off of the ledge I experienced in the world of the super rich, super lettered, and uber sociopaths. I have been stunned at what people were allowed to get away with by virtue of simply being rich. Many of us complain about perversions of the legal system. But I would point right past the lawyers and judges and mediators and point at so many juries. Whether we like it or not they are a reflection of America, however unpalatable that may be. Those juries are not limited to the court but can be found as the seething masses who choose to buy this product or that, or who vote one way or another (political influence being a favorite past time of the rich). At one point, while working in the defense of a white collar thief, I wondered almost every day how it was that not one of his victims beat his brains out, or that of some defense lawyer walking to his car through a dimly lit parking garage. I am not condoning violence, I was and still am simply shocked at how much people will take. It has been quite some time since I came to my senses, packed up no more than could fit into my Bronco, got divorced, and recovered a sense of dignity I hardly noticed had gone missing.

    My older sister was treated quite poorly by the young men she dated through her mid twenties. I got tired of listening to her complain about them at about the time I realized she was the problem insofar as she allowed them to behave as the miscreants they were. Until we as a country decide to simply stop taking shit from abusive brats because they drive nice cars we shall continue to have a lot of really shitty dates.
     
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    The masses have always been and will always be stupid, lazy & greedy, with short memories, caring only about themselves in the moment.

    A small group has always and will always wind up controlling the course of nations.

    Yes the communists will tell you down with the rich... we should take all their money and power.... but like always they forget to tell you that all they really want is to use you as dumb sheep to help them swap places with the current set of rich / powerful & in the end you'll be even worse off. And if you really want to pull back the curtain, you might find both communists and capitalists are controlled in the end by the same overlords.

    If you don't like it, start your own family cartel, dedicated for hundreds of years to single minded pursuit of power and wealth and then your family can one day join the master race.

    Going all the way back to the Bible, people were begging God to make a king to rule over them... something about all the cool kids have fancy kings....
     
    Farm keeps on producing and "pigs" keep on rotating. The show aint gonna stop without "future pigs to be" decide that right after processing bacon from the last pigs enough is enough and that time allotted for animals to be pigs on this Farm must be limited and that various animals can and should take turn being pigs. Added to this there must be constant and imminent threat of being processed into bacon if "pigs for a day" misbehave in any way.

    When we as a human beings will be ready for such Farm who knows but i'm betting you not soon (aka few decades, maybe after next big cleansing which will certainly be horrific enough to shock people out of their deluded perception of reality but will it take hold and not be forgotten in mere generation or two?).
     
    Many of us complain about perversions of the legal system. But I would point right past the lawyers and judges and mediators and point at so many juries. Whether we like it or not they are a reflection of America, however unpalatable that may be. Those juries are not limited to the court but can be found as the seething masses who choose to buy this product or that, or who vote one way or another (political influence being a favorite past time of the rich).

    Bingo.

    There are so many professions in America (as we turn away from manufacturing and to a service based econ) where the impetus for the job is to assist pyramiding echelons of wealth have their way. In short, the wealthy hire bag men to use their intelligence, connections, or in some cases the actual wealth of the principal to effect change that benefits the principal and their class. You name the profession, there are bag men of every sort.

    The reasons why this happens are multifaceted. However the media, via that 52" idiot box in your house is the prime source; but the inputs come from above.

    One of my favorite quotes is: Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you


    On that note - something to read:The Tavistock Institute on Human Relations: Shaping the Moral, Spiritual, Cultural, Political and Economic Decline of The United States of America http://www.pdfarchive.info/pdf/C/Co/Coleman_John_-_The_Tavistock_Institute_of_Human_Relations.pdf
     
    Geez, we humans live in an artificial world, far removed from the natural one. There will always be some prick pulling your string to some degree. Just accept it and try not to get run over. Unless you prefer anarchy and violence.
     
    doesnt said constitution demand that free men have duty to depose enemies of the free states such as the afore mentioned tyrannical oligarchs?

    Actually, I believe its the Declaration of iIndependence that says it:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world....."
     
    One of my favorite quotes is: Every facet, every department of your mind, is to be programmed by you. And unless you assume your rightful responsibility, and begin to program your own mind, the world will program it for you

    A most memorable lecture series was by a marketer who opened the session by laying out the premise "most people have no idea why they are buying what they are buying". She then spent the next week demonstrating that this was true and the various ways peoples perceptions were altered. Basically, she gave up case studies of problems she solved for her clients. Rarely did a solution alter the product but rather it went after the image. At the end of the day that is what I have come to believe is what is being purchased, the image of the product. This woman was not an academic theorist but someone who had built a fortune as a partner with Saatchi & Saatchi and had been instrumental in building up what was at the time the worlds largest and most successful marketing firm. I have met plenty of smart people, but in the world of business I have never been awed as I was by these successful marketers. Of course the products molded and placed on the shelves of the well regulated market of public opinion included politicians and business leaders.
     
    It is very rare that I might agree with as many words as were spoken in those 23 minutes, but Mr. Hedges has it right. Having been a kid born, quite literally, on the wrong side of the tracks to having kept the company of the people vilified in the video I find the speakers reflecting my own experience. The idolization of the ruling class is part of what keeps them where they are. The public imagination imbues their character with noble ideals and keen intellects. I admit to once entertaining such notions myself. Eventually I found the truth to be a rather ugly thing. For much of America the quality of being in possession of vast sums of money, and perhaps a celebrity endorsement, are all that is required to allow for levitation just over and above our laws and to forfeit the contents of our pockets.

    Having enjoyed a colorful childhood in a city celebrated for its debauchery I was hardly prepared for the drop off of the ledge I experienced in the world of the super rich, super lettered, and uber sociopaths. I have been stunned at what people were allowed to get away with by virtue of simply being rich. Many of us complain about perversions of the legal system. But I would point right past the lawyers and judges and mediators and point at so many juries. Whether we like it or not they are a reflection of America, however unpalatable that may be. Those juries are not limited to the court but can be found as the seething masses who choose to buy this product or that, or who vote one way or another (political influence being a favorite past time of the rich). At one point, while working in the defense of a white collar thief, I wondered almost every day how it was that not one of his victims beat his brains out, or that of some defense lawyer walking to his car through a dimly lit parking garage. I am not condoning violence, I was and still am simply shocked at how much people will take. It has been quite some time since I came to my senses, packed up no more than could fit into my Bronco, got divorced, and recovered a sense of dignity I hardly noticed had gone missing.

    My older sister was treated quite poorly by the young men she dated through her mid twenties. I got tired of listening to her complain about them at about the time I realized she was the problem insofar as she allowed them to behave as the miscreants they were. Until we as a country decide to simply stop taking shit from abusive brats because they drive nice cars we shall continue to have a lot of really shitty dates.

    You are a wise one, MosesTheTank. The fact that people like you exist gives me hope.
     
    Interesting addition: my wife had this article about psychopathic behaviour. Turns out brain scans of these people are almost identical to those incarcerated for serial murder. It's passed down genetically, so eugenics would be the only way to weed it out within two generations (a la "Gattaca"). That won't go down easy at all. See, the most problematic brain scan actually came from the control set --he broke the anonymity code in order to find out if it was a mistake. But it turned out to be his own. Turns out that greedbags, soldiers (particular infantrymen and the like) and politicians all have one thing in common. Psychopathy. You kinda have to be callous to be 11B, looking back, and the best fighters are all (at least seem) psychopathic in nature, however, most Medals of Honor have gone to altruistic deeds, which means we still value it in public. On the other hand, these deeds saved the lives of psychopaths so they could live to fight another day. I guess it takes a mix to work out well, different strokes and shit.

    Altruism and psychopathy are at odds with one another, a blend of both and a good sense of when to apply which would be most beneficial, IMO. Altruism hasn't been weeded out because it's a survival trait.

    But note: extremes don't fly well in nature. Period, unless they have a significant long term advantage, which psychopathy does not contribute. In addition, one won't know if one is psychopathic, it's only noticed by others. It's part of what gives them the ability to do what they do. I submit Donald Trump as a prime example. I'd LOVE to see his brain scan compared to Bernie Madoff (who is psychopathic in nature).

    Psychopathy doesn't mean you will kill others, turns out if you are born into means you won't have to, but if you are born on the street, well, you might have to (or might not have any control over it). It can give you an enormous short term advantage. But in the long term, it's just an outlier event in human evolution and it will be weeded out in time. Example: all governments have historically failed with time, usually due to class warfare or conquest, and not one has been successful. It's because psychopathy rises to the top, only to be toppled --and the toppled ones don't generally pass on genes, nor do ones locked up forever.

    Altruism. There is no such thing as true altruism. I had to argue it to no ends in philosophy (despite the goddamn theorem they couldn't understand enough to take as my proof). Fact is, sacrificing your life for your progeny gives you just as much advantage, and maybe more in the long run, than does psychopathy. Too much altruism can do you in --as it did the man that proved altruism isn't "true" in nature, ie, everything you've ever done has been a means that benefits either yourself or some other protracted ends. Ie, there is no such thing as "good" or "evil". There are only outliers and the rest of us, and everything any of us do has a purpose that benefits our ends.

    Most of us lie in the middle, just like the most of the rest of nature, on a nice bell curve. So in the end, it's us that win. Fuck, if you don't have the govt. at your door AND you aren't bawling about every "news" event, you're probably better off than you think.
     
    Interesting addition: my wife had this article about psychopathic behaviour. Turns out brain scans of these people are almost identical to those incarcerated for serial murder.

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    That's really interesting to hear, and not really that surprising.

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    Altruism. There is no such thing as true altruism. I had to argue it to no ends in philosophy (despite the goddamn theorem they couldn't understand enough to take as my proof). .

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    LOL, sounds like my experience as a philosophy major. I agree, ultimately there is no true altruism. If you strip all the BS away, it really boils down to the fact that we do everything we do for ourselves. Realistically, how could it be any other way. Getting those who 'know it all' to see that, much less admit to it, is the problem.
     
    Interesting addition: my wife had this article about psychopathic behaviour. Turns out brain scans of these people are almost identical to those incarcerated for serial murder. It's passed down genetically, so eugenics .


    Ummm…which particular people? Secondly it is a little more than a slippery slope argument to assign scan readings of a handful of people to wide swaths…..
     
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    LOL, sounds like my experience as a philosophy major. I agree, ultimately there is no true altruism. If you strip all the BS away, it really boils down to the fact that we do everything we do for ourselves. Realistically, how could it be any other way. Getting those who 'know it all' to see that, much less admit to it, is the problem.

    Let me guess: you teach philosophy!

    Yeah, I couldn't recall the theorem, I had to look it up. I'm rusty but it was still pretty easy to follow. Price's theorem, and it proves exactly what you said analytically. My major was math, analysis in particular, with a penchant for statistics and probability. In the end, I just love the calculus. I'd love to teach it, but I can't afford the Phd. and it's a little late for me anyway.

    There's also a neat thing on Science Channel, Dark Matters or some such. Talks about dark science --weapons engineers, mad scientists --and George Price, who wrote the theorem.
     
    Let me guess: you teach philosophy!

    Yeah, I couldn't recall the theorem, I had to look it up. I'm rusty but it was still pretty easy to follow. Price's theorem, and it proves exactly what you said analytically. My major was math, analysis in particular, with a penchant for statistics and probability. In the end, I just love the calculus. I'd love to teach it, but I can't afford the Phd. and it's a little late for me anyway.

    There's also a neat thing on Science Channel, Dark Matters or some such. Talks about dark science --weapons engineers, mad scientists --and George Price, who wrote the theorem.

    Nah, you need a Phd to teach, and then there are no jobs. Think about the last time you saw an add for "philosopher wanted'. A BA was enough academia for me to know I had no interest in going further. I do appreciate math though. Unfortunately Im mildly numerically dyslexic so it makes it tough to pursue physics etc. Your never too old ....I didn't go back to school until I was 40 and finished at 45.

    Ive seen Price's theorem some time past. Interesting, but again, mathematically, a bit over my head.

    Example: Evolution of altruism[edit]

    To study the evolution of a genetic predisposition to altruism, altruism will be defined as the genetic predisposition to behavior which decreases individual fitness while increasing the average fitness of the group to which the individual belongs. First specifying a simple model, which will only require the simple Price equation. Specify a fitness wi by a model equation:
    w_i = \frac{n'_i}{n_i} = k - a z_i + b z
    where zi is a measure of altruism, the azi term is the decrease in fitness of an individual due to altruism towards the group and bz is the increase in fitness of an individual due to the altruism of the group towards an individual. Assume that a and b are both greater than zero. From the Price equation:
    w\Delta z = -a\operatorname{var}\left(z_i\right)
    where var(zi) is the variance of zi which is just the covariance of zi with itself:
    \operatorname{var}(z_i) \;\stackrel{\mathrm{def}}{=}\; \operatorname{E}(z_i^2) - \operatorname{E}(z_i)^2
    It can be seen that, by this model, in order for altruism to persist it must be uniform throughout the group. If there are two altruist types the average altruism of the group will decrease, the more altruistic will lose out to the less altruistic.

    Now assuming a hierarchy of groups which will require the full Price equation. The population will be divided into groups, labelled with index i and then each group will have a set of subgroups labelled by index j. Individuals will thus be identified by two indices, i and j, specifying which group and subgroup they belong to. nij will specify the number of individuals of type ij. Let zij be the degree of altruism expressed by individual j of group i towards the members of group i. Let's specify the fitness wij by a model equation:
    w_{ij} = \frac{n'_{ij}}{n_{ij}} = k - a z_{ij} + b z_i
    The a zij term is the fitness the organism loses by being altruistic and is proportional to the degree of altruism zij that it expresses towards members of its own group. The b zi term is the fitness that the organism gains from the altruism of the members of its group, and is proportional to the average altruism zi expressed by the group towards its members. Again, in studying altruistic (rather than spiteful) behavior, it is expected that a and b are positive numbers. Note that the above behavior is altruistic only when azij >bzi. Defining the group averages:
    \begin{align} n_i &= \sum_j n_{ij} \\ z_i &= \frac{1}{n_i}\sum_j z_{ij}n_{ij} \\ w_i &= \frac{1}{n_i}\sum_j w_{ij}n_{ij} = k + (b - a)z_i \\ n_i'&= \sum_j n_{ij}' = n_i[k + (b - a)z_i] \\ z_i'&= \frac{1}{n_i'}\sum_j z_{ij}n_{ij}' \end{align}
    and global averages:
    \begin{align} n &= \sum_{ij} n_{ij} = \sum_i n_i \\ z &= \frac{1}{n}\sum_{ij} z_{ij}n_{ij} = \frac{1}{n}\sum_i z_in_i \\ w &= \frac{1}{n}\sum_{ij} w_{ij}n_{ij} = \frac{1}{n}\sum_i w_in_i \\ n'&= \sum_{ij} n_{ij}' = \sum_i n_i' \\ z'&= \frac{1}{n'}\sum_{ij} z_{ij}n_{ij}' = \frac{1}{n'}\sum_i z_i'n_i' \end{align}
    It can be seen that since the zi and zi are now averages over a particular group, and since these groups are subject to selection, the value of Δzi = z′i−zi will not necessarily be zero, and the full Price equation will be needed.
    \Delta z = \operatorname{cov}\left(\frac{w_i}{w}, z_i\right) + \operatorname{E}\left(w_i\,\Delta \frac{z_i}{w}\right)
    In this case, the first term isolates the advantage to each group conferred by having altruistic members. The second term isolates the loss of altruistic members from their group due to their altruistic behavior. The second term will be negative. In other words there will be an average loss of altruism due to the in-group loss of altruists, assuming that the altruism is not uniform across the group. The first term is:
    \operatorname{cov}\left(\frac{w_i}{w}, z_i\right) = \left(b - a\right)\operatorname{var}(z_i)
    In other words, for b>a there may be a positive contribution to the average altruism as a result of a group growing due to its high number of altruists and this growth can offset in-group losses, especially if the variance of the in-group altruism is low. In order for this effect to be significant, there must be a spread in the average altruism of the groups.
     
    Ummm…which particular people? Secondly it is a little more than a slippery slope argument to assign scan readings of a handful of people to wide swaths…..

    It was a controlled experiment. And the paper was about spotting psychopaths (wife wanted to know when one walks into the office, when to be more wary). The most abnormal brain scan came from the guy running it, from the control group. He ran it again to make sure it wasn't a fluke. In retrospect, his colleagues said they thought he fit the profile, and I think his family did too. In the end, he came up with the test they use to look for it. Based on the questions asked, most of you'd test psychopathic I'd wager. It's not a bad thing though. And if you are a psychopath, you won't admit it 1. because of the label, 2. because you can't --you believe you are always right (which sounds like everyone).

    The doctor running it, he was worried because he'd in essence just labeled himself with a label he brands others with --and it apparently isn't a label anyone wants, including himself! So it would be best to redefine this to just those who are found to be killers, rapists, etc., or just not label people at all. Psychopath doesn't bring to mind the guy you wanna invite in your house does it? But what if that psychopath is your son or even you? That's another thing the paper talks about.

    Slippery slope is when others will use this against you. Govt. could ban firearms by making people take brain scans prior, and they'd use "science" as the indisputable reason why (which the branding may actually trigger some, lending a short term increase in bad psychopathic behaviour, to seek out a weapon at all costs, to snap, which will in turn be used for more law enforcement shit, more bans). Technocracy, I think that's what it's called, when the govt. uses science that the average man can't understand as the basis for law. They're already using this as it is, moving in that direction, despite the fact crime is WAY down. That won't be front page news, but the next shooting will be. Can't see the forest for the trees and all.
     
    Yeah, you need the full Price equation, and in nature most things are evenly distributed. The bell curve. So it in effect proves at once psychopath is a necessary trait and a desirable one, same as altruism, and outliers are uncommon. They are your serial killers and saints, and have more in common than you know. They both take great risk and become the famous and infamous. But in the end, math humbles all to ants in a an anthill. Each applying it's means to the same ends. Pay is not commensurate with contribution.

    Space program is likely a great example of psychopaths and altruists working together. But I guess you could say that of any organization that is successful. The military for instance. Somehow, despite how much I wish I could, I can't say that of our govt. as a whole. Since all have failed they are all equally unsuccessful. No proof to achieve the utopian society it seems.

    Know that we were down to just 20,000 breeding pairs, if that, during the last great ice age. Whatever happened changed our technology at once, and I'm sure it brought out the best and worst in us. We are ALL descendents from that handful of people, and there were psychopaths and altruists alike in that group working together.

    There are more jobs in math, but 99% work in govt. jobs. The prize is to get tenure at a university. I'm in the same boat as you, albeit disabled thus making it somewhat moot. Had I taken applied mathematics, I'd be more "useful" but I wouldn't know how to manipulate and read the proofs the way I do (which is what I wanted). We go into those fields because we enjoy it, not because of the pay --that much is certain!
     
    psych eval aside....can we now return to our previously scheduled programming and start ridding the u.s. of oligarchs?
     
    The OP and I were discussing what makes an oligarch. How they tick, what makes them do what they do. But what I invoked, George Price, goes much farther.

    As much as I don't like greedbags, I do understand how the world works and their place in it.

    I also understand if it continues, it will tear this country apart.
     
    Core of the problem is you cannot simply remove one set of "oligarchs/psychopaths/whatever" because sooner or later (sooner actually if not immediately) they are replaced by another set and wheels keep on rolling (down the hill).

    Yes psychopaths are real and they are not like the one from the movies (wielding big knife accompanied by annoying music and woman enjoying her last shower...) but to claim that its normal and common thats stretching it dangerously too far. Using simple brain scan won't show you soft things like discerning right or wrong, desires, experience it can show you physics, how emotion center and other parts work (those brain scans are nothing but images of how various centers of the brain respond to certain stimuli - like dead kittens, boobs etc..) but thats it. Labeling people based on this can be dangerous as there are other factors in play which contribute to where on "bell curve" one is located. Word psychopath should be used only when factors combine in such way that person finds itself on the negative lower end of the curve aka "evil". As to the radar for discovering such people there is no such thing i think closest analogy for detecting such people would be active sonar since without direct interaction you're unable to judge and observe psychopaths actions or reactions. For me personally based on my experience its a combination of too friendly behavior (without being friend for a long time), lack of strong opinion and/or reluctance to give an opinion first, lying and manipulation, quick opinion change.
     
    Common sense, which is very UN-common any more could have been a player long ago. Now it's more about bombing some place while staining a blue dress and dipping your cigar. Much like declaring those who stand up for Truth Justice and the American way, domestic terrorists.
     
    When the gentry become mad enough to speak upon current issues of decline and revolution, the common man is ready to arm himself and fight. We are beyond this point, as evidenced most recently in Nevada. This begs the question; can anyone speak to the last time over 1,000 men armed themselves to fight a corrupt government? I can give an answer that the last time a few hundred did so was Athen's TN shortly after WWII.
    The events that made over 1,000 armed individuals leave home to go fight show that this nation is once again at the point where a civil war, or a very large civil insurrection will happen. This is our cycle. It is what we do.
    I cannot make God quotes, nor will I quote those famous old men in paintings, but to ignore our history, which has shown a repeated pattern of fighting government that is bad, be it king or federal, we do fight.
    1,000 armed common men should not be ignored.
     
    Oligarchy, or whatever other "-archy", "-cracy", etc., prevails does so because it is a basic tenet of the human condition that the collective mentality craves it. To be successful; what is needed is the "OZ Curtain", where the collective view is distorted to portray the manipulator(s) as being the viewers themselves. In effect, the "curtain" become a mirror. All accessible means of communication become elements of that mirror.

    I don't have answers, I just have questions; and there are so many of them that apply to our society that any of mine simply recede into the background.

    It all just grows like Topsy, and it all falls from its inherent swollen mass, instability, and imbalance. This is cyclic, and probably immutable.

    This is an observation, and not an indictment.

    It falls under the concept that one must know one's enemy, and in this case that means we must know ourselves. On a societal level and an individual level, we are unable to mind our own business. We are irrevocably compelled meddle in the lives of others, thus ensuring that our own lives fail due to inattention.

    The simple fact that when we assign blame (and we are incapable of not doing so) we always look for someone else upon whom to heap it is all the proof one needs. Want someone to blame? Look no further than the mirror. We are to blame because we allow it, whatever it is.

    Bottom line, it's my fault, your fault, our collective fault. Talk is cheap, I know, I can afford as much of it as I can manage to produce. I've talked enough of it that I know the answer does not lie in talk.

    Want action? Stop talking. Talk changes nothing for the better

    Greg
     
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    It does to the extent of waking up people to start asking questions. Even those directed towards mirror count (perhaps those are the most important ones). But you are right we are guilty be it not helping fellow man, not raising voice when voice needs raising. Evil must be constantly checked and confronted otherwise it grows and can cast long long shadow. So next time when either of us sees something wrong or someone in need instead of going on with our business we should take time and do something, anything. When (if) enough people change their ways things will improve on their own.
     
    These people, historically, can only be removed by force. Sorry, it's how it is.

    Yahoo second in command to Marissa Mayer was FIRED this week, BUT given $58million in severance --for 15 months work. I'm sorry, but there is nothing that man could contribute to the world, much less Yahoo, in 15 weeks that deserves $58million.

    Until this shit stops, it'll continue going downhill, rich getting richer, poor getting poorer, and the same old shit: poor are poor because they are lazy and rich are rich because they work hard. Entitlements: the rich get these everyday, in great sums, but somehow my VA check and SSD check now fall into "entitlements" but with bad connotation. As in I wrongly feel entitled to money that should go to them instead, as if I'm literally STEALING from the rich in this manner. Whatever. I think people are waking up from the American Dream and are realizing the American Reality isn't what they expected or wanted.

    Change is coming, and when it does, it won't be pretty. I don't when or what will spark it, but it will have something to do with an overnight change in status quo. An economic collapse that somehow doesn't affect the rich again maybe, only worse than the last one. And of course whoever rises up to fight it will be "domestic terrorists". I suppose though, when your government labels you a domestic terrorist for speaking up for your rights, well, they ceased being a recognizable government at all, and became just some tyrant flying the wrong flag, OUR flag. You label enough of these guys and their families, and hey, you just started a civil war.

    Besides, "terrorist" is a purely government word used to describe enemies of any given regime. If you are a terrorist, you are also somebody else' freedom fighter. Terrorist is always a word your enemy uses to brand you with. Even Bin Laden, he was somebody's freedom fighter (just not ours).

    I also like what one fellow mentioned elsewhere in another thread: "It's very telling how the govt. could amass an army to steal one rancher's cows, but can't seem to stop the flow of illegal aliens across the border." (loosely quoted). Very telling indeed. How do oligarchs intend to keep all that wealth, when shit falls apart, outnumbered a million to one?
     
    Did you ever read One Second After?

    Somebody did (Newt Gingrich), and testified to the Senate that every American should. I'm not an especially big Newt fan, but this time, I think he's right on the money.

    Did you know that Iran has recently declared it will station a warship off the US East Coast?

    None need trust anything to domestic terrorists. The Mad Mullahs already have such things under control. Peaceful nuclear research my ass...

    Greg
     
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    Iran, if they do that, will be well within their rights in international waters. And if they attack, that son of a bitch will be sunk faster than you can flush the toilet.

    And the holy shit that will be released on Iran will be of biblical proportions.
     
    Quite so, it's all right there in the book.

    Given the Mullahs, they could care less if it neutralizes their Great Satan. Never underestimate the commitment of the truly insane religious fanatic.

    The whole point about the One Second is that once the pulse initiates, the USA would immediately be done as a world power. It would be done as a nation. Estimates are that between 90% and 95% of he population would dead by the following Spring.

    You really do need to read the book, and if you already have, do it again.

    Greg
     
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    Again, quite so...

    It also extends to many others, including the nepotic cult of personality that infests North Korea.

    Greg
     
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    Never underestimate the commitment of the truly insane religious fanatic.

    Greg

    That extends well beyond Islam.

    Duly noted.
    1Csljba.png
     
    . How do oligarchs intend to keep all that wealth, when shit falls apart, outnumbered a million to one?

    You may notice a large percentage of the MegaRich around the world have built themselves massive ocean going ships with their own private onboard armies, helicopter pads, submarine bays and enough supplies to last a long while. Others have massive "complexes" in the out of the way areas.

    The ruling class didn't get to be on top by being stupid & not thinking way ahead. The ultimate preppers are the Ultra Wealthy, they have an idea of what is coming and a plan of how to ride it out and come out back on top
     
    We are not a reflection of them. They are a reflection of us. We are the root of the problem, never forget that. Ever hear of divide and conquer? We have allowed them to divide us with petty politics, so now we are ripe to be conquered.
     
    We are not a reflection of them. They are a reflection of us. We are the root of the problem, never forget that. Ever hear of divide and conquer? We have allowed them to divide us with petty politics, so now we are ripe to be conquered.

    Well said, FS.
     
    We have allowed them to divide us with petty politics, so now we are ripe to be conquered.
    You keep that train of thought going if it works, for you. Most of the ones your talking about are laughing at them so hard our sides are hurting. Remember in 100% of the military 90% or so are not combat arms. Of that 10% I doubt 25% will take up arms and face us bad guys. Even at that, they will have to contend with those who side with us, remember it's much easier to work a plan from the inside than out. Only a fool can not see the pendulum swinging back the other way,... the B/S coming from the # 1,2 &3 true domestic terrorists says it all. We out number them so bad it's not even funny,...the days of perception are past. Light and the truth makes cockroaches run for cover, and they are in fact slithering away more and more everyday now.
     
    Well said, FS.

    I agree. So how to we become organized, and not just pockets of people with different agendas?

    I vote, but that doesn't always work out. I get a choice between corporation A's pick vs. corporation B's pick. I don't get a choice, I don't feel like I have representation, I feel like large corporations are the ones with all the representation. As a whole mind you, there's a couple good guys. But just not enough.

    One thing is certain. If we don't unplug the money from the government, we are doomed. People work for money, and last I checked, average families don't tend to donate money to politicians, they expect their votes to garner support.

    But divided, yeah.... Our only hope is forcing laws down their throat through state by state ratification for a new Amendment cutting off the money, making them responsible and doing away with all parties. But good luck getting that to happen.
     
    Well said, FS.
    Thank you
    I agree. So how to we become organized, and not just pockets of people with different agendas?

    I vote, but that doesn't always work out. I get a choice between corporation A's pick vs. corporation B's pick. I don't get a choice, I don't feel like I have representation, I feel like large corporations are the ones with all the representation. As a whole mind you, there's a couple good guys. But just not enough.

    One thing is certain. If we don't unplug the money from the government, we are doomed. People work for money, and last I checked, average families don't tend to donate money to politicians, they expect their votes to garner support.

    But divided, yeah.... Our only hope is forcing laws down their throat through state by state ratification for a new Amendment cutting off the money, making them responsible and doing away with all parties. But good luck getting that to happen.

    Believe it or not it only takes one great man to make a difference. Don't believe it? Look up the Newburgh Conspiracy or the inn at Newburgh and you will see what one great man of character can do.

    Can a country of hundreds of millions of people not find one great man? Or are we to self righteous to be able see one anymore?
     
    I agree. So how to we become organized, and not just pockets of people with different agendas?

    I vote, but that doesn't always work out. I get a choice between corporation A's pick vs. corporation B's pick. I don't get a choice, I don't feel like I have representation, I feel like large corporations are the ones with all the representation. As a whole mind you, there's a couple good guys. But just not enough.

    One thing is certain. If we don't unplug the money from the government, we are doomed. People work for money, and last I checked, average families don't tend to donate money to politicians, they expect their votes to garner support.

    But divided, yeah.... Our only hope is forcing laws down their throat through state by state ratification for a new Amendment cutting off the money, making them responsible and doing away with all parties. But good luck getting that to happen.

    Ive pondered your question for some time now. The only realistic answer I can come up with is probably not what you want to hear, but here it is.

    I realized a long time ago that I could no longer put any true faith or trust in the government's of mankind. Why? Because they are of man, and man, while possessing many wonderful virtues,is essentially a flawed vehicle, beset by all the human elements of ignorance, fear, arrogance, hate etc. Look at every gub'mint to date. They have all ended up the same. So lets learn from history.

    Having realized that, I searched for a place to put my faith and trust. For awhile, religion filled that place, then I saw that all religion's were essentially just like gub'mints, created by man, and subject to the same failings.

    So I finally came to rest in realizing that the only place I can really place trust, is in myself, and my personal determination to do that which is right. I base that on the simple predication that "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" and thus strive to treat all others as I wish to be treated, realizing that my actions will return to me just as I send them out. Do I always succeed? Hardly. I often fail miserably, but when I do I always attempt to right that which I have wronged.

    To simplify : The Buck Stops Here."
     

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