Time to start applying centerfire logic to .22 (was just zero, now expanded to other areas)

Dthomas3523

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So exactly what distance are you zeroing at? I’m a little confused by the zero at zero yards
The zero at zero yds is just a manipulation of the software to show you the lateral movement of wind from the muzzle. Basically saying that zero is where the bullet exits the muzzle.

I zero my .22 at 30yds if possible with 25yds being second preferred. I will do a 50yd if I’m at a match where they don’t have anything except 50. But there is almost zero chance that zero is good if the winds change or I go to another range.

With a centerfire, unless I’ve changed something or have a reason to believe the zero is off, I don’t worry with checking zero every range trip or match.

With rimfire however, I won’t shoot a match that doesn’t allow zero time before match. Way, way too many times I’ve done as well as winning a match at one range, then going to another and my windage is off around .2 from my previous zero. *Especially* if it was a 50yd zero.
 
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Dthomas3523

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Gotcha. So how are you manipulating the software for this?
The software manipulation was just to give an accurate comparison between Rimfire and centerfire by setting the zero to zero yards. It just for example sake.

Otherwise, I just zero at 30, 25, or 50 and input that as my zero like normal.
 

clubsportmark

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Stupid question. Why not best of both worlds?

Zero for windage at 25m
Zero for elevation at 50m.

That way you have a 50m zero, benefiting from a flatter curve but you knowing having zeroed at 25m for windage it hasn’t been effected by wind.

Thoughts?
 

Dthomas3523

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Stupid question. Why not best of both worlds?

Zero for windage at 25m
Zero for elevation at 50m.

That way you have a 50m zero, benefiting from a flatter curve but you knowing having zeroed at 25m for windage it hasn’t been effected by wind.

Thoughts?
What benefit is “flatter curve”?

Serious question
 

DROWN

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Really useful stuff here for novice shooter just learning to zero and and mount scopes on rimfire and center fire.
 
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clubsportmark

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What benefit is “flatter curve”?

Serious question
i guess if your using your .22lr purely as a target rifle. It makes zero difference. You just dial what you need for whatever distance your shooting at, as you would with centre fire.

However if you use your rifle for pest control as well as target shooting, the 50m zero will see a flatter curve allowing you a better PBR distance to shoot over.
Although this has subsequently changed, my old scope only had 5mils per rotation and no zero stop. Doesn’t take long with a 25m zero to be dialling lots of mils when reaching extended ranges using .22LR. Isn’t a problem now I’ve replaced with a 10mil rotation and zero stop.

I’m just spitting ideas and not challenging the notion either way. I finding this a very interesting thread.
 
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Longshot231

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i guess if your using your .22lr purely as a target rifle. It makes zero difference. You just dial what you need for whatever distance your shooting at, as you would with centre fire.

However if you use your rifle for pest control as well as target shooting, the 50m zero will see a flatter curve allowing you a better PBR distance to shoot over.
Although this has subsequently changed, my old scope only had 5mils per rotation and no zero stop. Doesn’t take long with a 25m zero to be dialling lots of mils when reaching extended ranges using .22LR. Isn’t a problem now I’ve replaced with a 10mil rotation and zero stop.

I’m just spitting ideas and not challenging the notion either way. I finding this a very interesting thread.
I got a Vortex Viper PST 5-25X on my Annie. It has a 20 MOA base and I used the Burris Signature rings to get another 40 MOA out of it.

It is zeroed at 50 yards and so far, I can get out to 300 yards with it.
 

Dthomas3523

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Agreed for hunting. Though I would personally just zero at 25 or 30 and dial in for 50. Then leave it there for the hunting
 
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Dthomas3523

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Just to be clear for anyone reading that doesn’t realize.....your zero distance does not give you more internal elevation for use.

All it does is slightly less dialing one way or another.

Now, I treat my Rimfire just like my centerfire.

With centerfire I will zero at 100. And then say I need my max point blank at a certain distance interval which would be a 300yd zero or dial, I simply just turn my dial to 300yd dope (.8-1.1 depending on rifle) and leave it there until I’m done for the day.

Same thing with Rimfire. I’ll zero at 30yds. Then turn dial to 50 or 100yd dope and leave it there.

This is the exact same as zero’ing at 50 or 300 in Rimfire or centerfire respectively.
 

Pivots

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Very interesting thread! thanks for sharing your insights.

A bit of a nob question, but at what distance would you zero, if you had an AR-style .22LR with Aimpoint or EOTech red-dot, i.e. no elevation or windage turrets?
Shooting targets from 20..100yards?
 

Dthomas3523

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Very interesting thread! thanks for sharing your insights.

A bit of a nob question, but at what distance would you zero, if you had an AR-style .22LR with Aimpoint or EOTech red-dot, i.e. no elevation or windage turrets?
Shooting targets from 20..100yards?
To be honest, I gave zero experience with that.

I’d probably look at dope and zero close to the middle of that to be as effective as possible. You won’t be getting perfect zero at that distance or with that optic. But it’s not a precision system.

Someone with more experience in that mag come in with a completely different opinion. I’d defer to them.
 

Jefe's Dope

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Very interesting thread! thanks for sharing your insights.

A bit of a nob question, but at what distance would you zero, if you had an AR-style .22LR with Aimpoint or EOTech red-dot, i.e. no elevation or windage turrets?
Shooting targets from 20..100yards?
25 yards. You'll have a max of 6" elevation drop out to 100 yards. And nearly zero from 0 to 50. 2" low at 75 yards. You could go with a 50 yard zero but it really doesn't change POA/POI from 25.
 

Powder_Burns

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So, I’ve never done a .22 competition. I zeroed my .22 at 100yd on a day with no wind, and have confirmed that by getting first round x-ring hits on a nra 100yd smallbore target on successive days. I only shoot that rifle at 100-400yd. Do I really need a 25yd zero?

An occasional hold-under inside 100yd is not challenging by any stretch with a 4-16x optic, but since I’m predominantly at 100 or 200 I just don’t see the practicality in dialing my elevation for 100yd every time I unpack the rifle.

We do know the .22 trajectory has crossed the line of sight in the optic twice upon reaching 100, and I get that. So, assuming I got a new rifle to sight in or change optics on my current rig, couldn’t I just zero 2.3” high at 25 for my 100yd zero without wind influence?

The only thing thats bothering me about a 25yd zero is for a 200yd shot thats a 8.5mil correction, for my 100yd zero its 5.9mils.

Out to 150yd, with my 100yd zero, shooting strictly with holdovers, I’m at a 2.8 holdover at 150 and a 2.3 holdunder at 25. If I zero at 25yd, my 100yd is is a 2.5mil holdover and at 150yd it would be 5.3mils, in the lower third of my optic.
I wouldn’t have to really start dialing elevation until approaching 200yd, which is a 5.9mil correction with my 100yd zero.
In a practical sense, engaging targets inside 150 can be done without even touching the turrets with that 100yd zero. I can’t seem to justify dialing corrections at those distances with a 25yd zero.

What do you guys think?
 

Dthomas3523

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So, I’ve never done a .22 competition. I zeroed my .22 at 100yd on a day with no wind, and have confirmed that by getting first round x-ring hits on a nra 100yd smallbore target on successive days. I only shoot that rifle at 100-400yd. Do I really need a 25yd zero?

An occasional hold-under inside 100yd is not challenging by any stretch with a 4-16x optic, but since I’m predominantly at 100 or 200 I just don’t see the practicality in dialing my elevation for 100yd every time I unpack the rifle.

We do know the .22 trajectory has crossed the line of sight in the optic twice upon reaching 100, and I get that. So, assuming I got a new rifle to sight in or change optics on my current rig, couldn’t I just zero 2.3” high at 25 for my 100yd zero without wind influence?

The only thing thats bothering me about a 25yd zero is for a 200yd shot thats a 8.5mil correction, for my 100yd zero its 5.9mils.

Out to 150yd, with my 100yd zero, shooting strictly with holdovers, I’m at a 2.8 holdover at 150 and a 2.3 holdunder at 25. If I zero at 25yd, my 100yd is is a 2.5mil holdover and at 150yd it would be 5.3mils, in the lower third of my optic.
I wouldn’t have to really start dialing elevation until approaching 200yd, which is a 5.9mil correction with my 100yd zero.
In a practical sense, engaging targets inside 150 can be done without even touching the turrets with that 100yd zero. I can’t seem to justify dialing corrections at those distances with a 25yd zero.

What do you guys think?
Should always be dialing when you have time.

Since we are comparing it to centerfire......why don’t you zero further than 100 so you dope/holdover is less @1k? The answer to that question is the same as the answer to your question. (Also, you don’t always get days with no wind when you zero).
 

Powder_Burns

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Should always be dialing when you have time.

Since we are comparing it to centerfire......why don’t you zero further than 100 so you dope/holdover is less @1k? The answer to that question is the same as the answer to your question. (Also, you don’t always get days with no wind when you zero).
25-150yd is a lower spread than 100-1000yd, the cf rifle/bullet/optic combo im shooting right now is about 14 mils to 1000yd, and there is no practical holdover past 550yd in that scope. Its not an apples to apples comparison right now as much as I’d like it to be.
 

Dthomas3523

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25-150yd is a lower spread than 100-1000yd, the cf rifle/bullet/optic combo im shooting right now is about 14 mils to 1000yd, and there is no practical holdover past 550yd in that scope. Its not an apples to apples comparison right now as much as I’d like it to be.
If you have the rifle doped properly, you can zero at 25, dial in 100yd dope and then slip turret to zero.

Benefits of a 25yd without needing a windless day and get the 100yd zero to work with your equipment and wants/needs.
 
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Powder_Burns

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If you have the rifle doped properly, you can zero at 25, dial in 100yd dope and then slip turret to zero.

Benefits of a 25yd without needing a windless day and get the 100yd zero to work with your equipment and wants/needs.
Thats what I was thinking, I know my rifle is 2.3” high at 25, so thats what I’d zero at to eliminate wind issues. (Or reset turret at 100.) So I can sight in at 25 and still have my cake and eat it too.
 

Jefe's Dope

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Zero where it works for you. I was just going with what most using a .22 zero at. Dialing more for me is not really an issue unless I run out of dial. Honestly for me zeroing is not so much elevation as it is windage. If you know your muzzle velocities, it's fairly easy to figure out elevation w/o firing a shot. Of course, you need to confirm elevation but you'll be extremely close in most cases assuming your data is accurate.

I generally zero at 25 then move out to 100 to fine tune windage. I have an indoor 100 yard range at my disposal as well.
 

A&8's

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25-150yd is a lower spread than 100-1000yd
Sure. However, the RF is running about a third the speed, too. a 6.5 CM running 2800fps needs about 8mil to get to a grand. So that would be the same as zeroing at 800y to get the short dial up of a couple mils to get to a grand. Although, hold unders to get to 100y would be impractical.

Holding under 2.3 for your RF at 25y isn't a problem....until one starts shooting .25" targets from an awkward position in 15+mph full wind.
 

Dthomas3523

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Thats what I was thinking, I know my rifle is 2.3” high at 25, so thats what I’d zero at to eliminate wind issues. (Or reset turret at 100.) So I can sight in at 25 and still have my cake and eat it too.
Same advise I give to hunters who want to zero at 2, 3, 500 yds because that’s where they shoot.

Zero at 100, then either dial your dope for that range and leave it, or slip the turret back to zero.
 

qodeBebop

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Same advise I give to hunters who want to zero at 2, 3, 500 yds because that’s where they shoot.

Zero at 100, then either dial your dope for that range and leave it, or slip the turret back to zero.
I think a couple more times of repeating it and maybe it will stick.

This thread really has some great information in it and logic that should be hard to argue with. I’ve used a 25 yard zero on my precision .22’s for a while but not for the reasons I should have as mentioned here. It was the distance we usually shot the smallest shit in our rimfire matches and the distance for most of my squirrel eradication.
 
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1moaoff

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If possible confirm windage zero past 25 on dead calm or indoors. Dialing up from 25yds is also great practice for centerfire matches. How many times do people get lost in the dial or forget.... gun handling and manipulation is the reason for a 22 trainer. It's too easy to cheat position but handling and dialing are key points.
 

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Break the zero in two parts. Elevation and windage. If we take the conventional wisdom that 22lr is 1/4 scale 308, would you zero for wind at 200? Especially when it is windy, like it is often here in CO?

I zero at 50 yards for elevation since that seems to work well for scaling to centerfire. I 'zero' for windage at 15 yards to make sure that the zero isn't messed with by the wind at all. It takes a bit to make sure it is actually zero'ed. I shot ten shots, or I chase the last shot so that a left-right bias becomes be pretty clear.

That's what I do now, and it seems to have fixed my windage seemingly not being right - because I had wind built into my zero.
 

Barryd

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Great post. Lots of really good information. I found out a few weeks ago about NRL22 and that 2 ranges less than 40 miles from me both host them. Plan to attend at least one match at one of the ranges starting next month. This post has made me rethink doing a 50 yard zero and doing it at 25 yards instead.
 
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munsonbw

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Maybe I have lost the plot a little. Are we talking 25yd zero to mainly take wind out of the zero process? So, if I am quite confident I am zeroing on a day with no wind at all, then it really doesn't matter? My thought with a 50yd zero would be to magnify the error/adjustment when making scope adjustments - easier to see 0.1mil at 50 vs 25yds.

@Dthomas3523 I looked at your dope data and you have only up elevation adjustments with your 25yd zero. I tried in Strelok pro with SK rifle match and my Bergara stats and I get down 0.3mil @35-40yds and hit zero again at 55yds. My previous 50 yd zero data gave similar results. I think I am missing something. I haven't confirmed the program data to actual, but it seems counter intuitive that you dial up to 20yd, then to 0 at 40yd, then up again at 60+. I am doing something wrong with Strelok or my use of 0yds vs target distance?

I don't have any prior PRS type experience and just started doing NRL22, so now is the time to correct bad habits or wrong info. Also, what is meant with saying "Xmph gun"?

Thanks
ben
 

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The barrel is below the scope, and the scope is inclined torwards the barrel, so what you are seeing is the bullet rise above the optic’s line of sight and then gravity taking over and the bullet falling below the line of sight.
 

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I do my zero at 25 yards due to exactly what you said, trying to remove as much environmental factors as possible. What people fail to do at 25 is to shoot 5-10 shots and choose the average POI as their zero. Some people just do the bullseye drill and as long as it clips it, it's good enough. .09" per .1 mil is pretty small, but it's still measureable. So do 5 shots, measure the average POI, adjust towards the exact point of aim, to make sure your zero is perfect.

People who do a lazy 25 yard zero will then end up stating that they had to correct .3 mil at 100 yards on a windless day, when really their 25yd zero was just bad.
Hi, can you explain in a little more detail your process for zero. Thanks!
 

Dthomas3523

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Maybe I have lost the plot a little. Are we talking 25yd zero to mainly take wind out of the zero process? So, if I am quite confident I am zeroing on a day with no wind at all, then it really doesn't matter? My thought with a 50yd zero would be to magnify the error/adjustment when making scope adjustments - easier to see 0.1mil at 50 vs 25yds.

@Dthomas3523 I looked at your dope data and you have only up elevation adjustments with your 25yd zero. I tried in Strelok pro with SK rifle match and my Bergara stats and I get down 0.3mil @35-40yds and hit zero again at 55yds. My previous 50 yd zero data gave similar results. I think I am missing something. I haven't confirmed the program data to actual, but it seems counter intuitive that you dial up to 20yd, then to 0 at 40yd, then up again at 60+. I am doing something wrong with Strelok or my use of 0yds vs target distance?

I don't have any prior PRS type experience and just started doing NRL22, so now is the time to correct bad habits or wrong info. Also, what is meant with saying "Xmph gun"?

Thanks
ben
You don’t always get to pick what day you zero. Things happen. Also, there’s rarely a “zero wind day“ regardless of what people think.

An “x mph” gun is used to define the mph wind takes to move .1 mil for a set yardage (in centerfire we look for 100yd increments). For rimfire it will be something like 10, 15, 20, or 25yds.

This is good for two reasons:

1: easy field wind calls

2: talking to other shooters in mph because their dope may not line up with yours
 

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I setup a target at either 25 yards or 50 yards. Properly range it to ensure correctness of the range.

If your rifle hasn't been shot yet I'd shoot maybe 1-3 rounds to ensure any cold bore like shifts. And then I'd shoot a group of 5.

Then measure the average POI from your group of 5 from where you were aiming. Adjust and shoot another group of 5 and you should be done.
 

munsonbw

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The barrel is below the scope, and the scope is inclined torwards the barrel, so what you are seeing is the bullet rise above the optic’s line of sight and then gravity taking over and the bullet falling below the line of sight.
I get that, but I was surprised that dthomas was seeing all up dialing when I am seeing down, then up. We both have roughly the same zero eleveation points at 25 and 50yds +/-. If I interpret your explanation correctly, this explains my dope of dialing down at ~30yds, then back up again past 50yds.

I am probably making this harder than it needs to be, but it has piqued my curiosity.
 

Dthomas3523

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I get that, but I was surprised that dthomas was seeing all up dialing when I am seeing down, then up. We both have roughly the same zero eleveation points at 25 and 50yds +/-. If I interpret your explanation correctly, this explains my dope of dialing down at ~30yds, then back up again past 50yds.

I am probably making this harder than it needs to be, but it has piqued my curiosity.
With 25yd zero, you might see a very small amount of down adjustment needed for 30yds or so. The rest should be up.

You can also go to a 30 or 35yd zero and alleviate it completely.
 
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Jackomason

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Its also worth considering what distance gives the most forgiving zero. Brian talks about this briefly on franks podcast. we zero at 100 because its where the trajectory and LOS intersect for the longest period of time giving us the same zero without needing to be dead nuts on at the 100 yard line.

There are a lot of posts I didn't read so someone may have already mentioned this and likely in better wording.
 

Dthomas3523

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Its also worth considering what distance gives the most forgiving zero. Brian talks about this briefly on franks podcast. we zero at 100 because its where the trajectory and LOS intersect for the longest period of time giving us the same zero without needing to be dead nuts on at the 100 yard line.

There are a lot of posts I didn't read so someone may have already mentioned this and likely in better wording.
He also mentioned the biggest reason, which is environmental influence.
 

Seymour Fish

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The subject of zero range keeps coming up for .22lr and the responses vary wildly. Which I find interesting because its almost universally accepted that a 100yd zero should be used for centerfire. The people who believe something like a 200yd zero is acceptable are in the very small minority (as far as serious precision shooters are concerned).

Yet there is no consensus on .22lr.

Let’s look at the two main reasons why we utilize a 100yd zero for centerfire:

1: environmentals don’t really affect this zero.

2: all adjustments for dope are up


So, let’s now apply this logic to rimfire with an experiment with your ballistic calculator:

Set you zero range to “zero yards” for your rimfire. Then set the wind speed to a 5mph crosswind. Set your target distance to 50yds. My calculator shows a .3 wind correction.

Now, take your centerfire rifle and do the same thing. Zero your zero range and input a 5mph crosswind. Input a 100yd target. I get .1mil correction. Now, keep increasing the distance until you get .3 (the same as 50 for centerfire).

I end up with a whopping 400yds. We would never, ever, ever recommend a 3-400 yd zero with a centerfire rifle.

Yet many of us are comfortable with a 50yd zero that is susceptible to the same wind deflection as 3-400yds in a centerfire.


Now, go back to your calculator with Rimfire and input a 0 zero range and a 50yd target range. This time, input a 10mph crosswind and hit enter.

I get a whopping .6mil !!!!!


Now let’s go back and use the same logic we do with a centerfire:

Low chance of environmentals
All up for dope

Using the 0 zero range, play around with numbers. I have found that 30yds has .2 wind deflection possible at 5mph and only .3 at a 10mph.

While also enabling dope to be all up.

25yds is .1 at 5mph and .3 at 10 mph. And is all up EXCEPT for 30yds which is only .1 down.

Also, before the argument is made that you can’t see adjustments on paper at closer range, I have no idea wtf that comes from. I can see the exact same adjustments as it’s a FFP optic and my adjustments move .1 just like anywhere else and match up to the ruler in my optic.


So basically, I’m saying that when utilizing the same logic as centerfire, you should be zero’ing at 25 or 30yds. Nothing else.
Most centerfires are zero’ at 100 because 100 is easily available. Pragmatic
 

Dthomas3523

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Not wrong. The gen pop access to ranges longer than 100 progressively decreases with distance. No bone to pick with most of your post given you address the Precision marksman
Oh, so you’re just inserting general fudd bullshit that has nothing to do with this topic. Just like most “think in inches.”

Don’t do that. We aren’t here to talk about why people who don’t know what they are doing, do what they do.
 

1moaoff

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For some people that missed the zero chart. Theres a difference when zero is at peak of bullet trajectory height and when its crossing the zero still going up and then dropping back down...
 

Seymour Fish

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Oh, so you’re just inserting general fudd bullshit that has nothing to do with this topic. Just like most “think in inches.”

Don’t do that. We aren’t here to talk about why people who don’t know what they are doing, do what they do.
Just pointing out the illogic in what seemed a broad-sweeping statement. Your Fudd bit is comical. Back to comparative wind drift