Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

Plasmech

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I'm looking into buying a new- off-the-shelf 1/2 MOA bolt gun in .223 or 22-250 for target and varmint shooting. I would go .308 however I only have a 100 yard range around here and .223 is much cheaper. I understand that the Remington 700 action is probably the most recpected and coveted action of all time. However some of the new Savage rifles really catch my eye. I really want an adjustable cheek weld and a synthetic stock, unless they have found a way to get some of the wooden ones not to warp in high humidity (???). How well respected is the Savage action these days? Can it be blue-printed like the Rem 700? I probably have tons of other questions but can't think of them now. Thanks for any replies!

oh yea, BTW, is 1/2 MOA out of the box about as good as it gets?
 

rem700man

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> is 1/2 MOA out of the box about as good as it gets? </div></div>

Yea thats going be about all you should hope for any less then that and you will be disapointed every time you shoot it.

I had a 700PSS that could shoot 1/2 MOA some of the time and from what I have gathered its more of the exception then the rule
 

skeetlee

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

good luck!No guarantees with off the shelf rifles. Besides that, can you shoot 1/2 moa? Tikka has a pretty good rep for accuracy. the one i had didnt shoot to well though. perfect example right there!! Lee
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">good luck!No guarantees with off the shelf rifles. Besides that, can you shoot 1/2 moa? Tikka has a pretty good rep for accuracy. the one i had didnt shoot to well though. perfect example right there!! Lee </div></div>

You know what, I probably can't. But I'm not into the whole "entry level" thinking...as in get something cheap to start with and work your way up. All that does is cost more money in the end LOL. Also, if I start with a good gun, there will be zero doubt in my mind that crappy groups are me and not the rifle. Well that's assuming that I have quality ammo I guess. What can most stock 700 action guns shoot out of the box? 3/4 - 1 MOA?
 

desertHK

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

more likely to be closer to the 1 end than the 0.75 end. However, it's luck of the draw. If you want a 0.5 MOA stick, then you may have to look into the custom route.
 

Killswitch Engage

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">good luck!No guarantees with off the shelf rifles. Besides that, can you shoot 1/2 moa? Tikka has a pretty good rep for accuracy. the one i had didnt shoot to well though. perfect example right there!! Lee </div></div>

You know what, I probably can't. But I'm not into the whole "entry level" thinking...as in get something cheap to start with and work your way up. All that does is cost more money in the end LOL. Also, if I start with a good gun, there will be zero doubt in my mind that crappy groups are me and not the rifle. Well that's assuming that I have quality ammo I guess. What can most stock 700 action guns shoot out of the box? 3/4 - 1 MOA? </div></div>

varmint contoured rem700's are generally a .5 moa rifle with good ammo, trigger and stock. there is really no reason for them not to be. they are a great if not the best factory rifle. i cannot speak for the new shit like the vtr etc. and don't want to. round barrels have seemed to work fine for the last couple of hundred years.
 

rc2125

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

CZ or savage, good chance you'd be close to 1/2 moa outa the box.
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alta Redneck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what about a cooper </div></div>

I've heard about Cooper. Unfortunately with The Socialist (TM) in office, all the gun guys are backlogged more than a year.
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: US Handgunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In order to get 1/2 MOA you need ammo that can shoot 1/2 MOA and gear that can support that demand as well. </div></div>

So I figured that 1 MOA error at 100 yards equals nominally 1 inch, is that correct?
 

mavrick10_2000

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

Yes. 1.047 inches actually, but close enough for 100 to maybe 300 yard calculations.
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mavrick10_2000</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes. 1.047 inches actually, but close enough for 100 to maybe 300 yard calculations. </div></div>

Yea I did the trig and came up with 1.047" but figured who's bringing a set of calipers to the 100 yard range, well at least not the one I go to!
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

What is considered the norm in terms of off-the-shelf MOA for "cheap" guns, say a Wal Mart gun? (not to pick on Wal Mart) 2 MOA?
 

Jicko

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking into buying a new- off-the-shelf 1/2 MOA bolt gun in .223 or 22-250 for target and varmint shooting. I would go .308 however I only have a 100 yard range around here and .223 is much cheaper. I understand that the Remington 700 action is probably the most recpected and coveted action of all time. However some of the new Savage rifles really catch my eye. I really want an adjustable cheek weld and a synthetic stock, unless they have found a way to get some of the wooden ones not to warp in high humidity (???). How well respected is the Savage action these days? Can it be blue-printed like the Rem 700? I probably have tons of other questions but can't think of them now. Thanks for any replies!

oh yea, BTW, is 1/2 MOA out of the box about as good as it gets? </div></div>


You've got $5k for this right?

Accuracy International will be your "off the shelf" answer.

By the way, "cheap" and "1/2 MOA" don't exist....
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

Yea, figured it was gonna cost me dearly.
 

marku

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

My opinion would be to get a Tikka varmit rifle in .223. With the right load it will shoot 1/2 moa.
 

Tackett

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

haven't really kepted up with it that much but what about the new Remington model 700 SPS Tactical with the hogue style stock and 20'' heavy barrel, it comes in both .223 and . 308. are they any count???
 

marduk185

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

imho and limited experiences factory off the shelf rifles are a crap shoot. i had poor rem 700 and an scary precise bushmaster but the consistent shooters ive played with have all had an indian head on the bolt. dont buy the mossberg .270 at walmart, it was junk.
 

Tackett

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

a buddy of mine bought one of the rem tactical's i didn't know if it was worth a crap or not.
 

desertHK

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jicko</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm looking into buying a new- off-the-shelf 1/2 MOA bolt gun in .223 or 22-250 for target and varmint shooting. I would go .308 however I only have a 100 yard range around here and .223 is much cheaper. I understand that the Remington 700 action is probably the most recpected and coveted action of all time. However some of the new Savage rifles really catch my eye. I really want an adjustable cheek weld and a synthetic stock, unless they have found a way to get some of the wooden ones not to warp in high humidity (???). How well respected is the Savage action these days? Can it be blue-printed like the Rem 700? I probably have tons of other questions but can't think of them now. Thanks for any replies!

oh yea, BTW, is 1/2 MOA out of the box about as good as it gets? </div></div>


You've got $5k for this right?

Accuracy International will be your "off the shelf" answer.

By the way, "cheap" and "1/2 MOA" don't exist.... </div></div>


There is no doubt that AI rifles are sub MOA. They are very accurate. Both of my AIAW and AIAWSM are sub MOA. However, the company won't guarantee you a 1/2 MOA.
 

Megacab

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Besides that, can you shoot 1/2 moa? </div></div>

Lee gets the gold star for the question that everyone should have asked first.
grin.gif


No need to drop a HUGE amount of coin when a simple entry level will be fine until you get your feet wet and the ability to even come close to 1/2 MOA.


Jack


 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

I built an AR-15 with all Larue, Magpul, and Noveske (barrel) parts, the thing is dang nice, in fact I don't know what I could have done much better on it. 16.1" barrel with 1:8 twist. Maybe I should just shoot that. How accurate in terms of MOA could a direct impingment rifle be though compared to a bolt?
 

marduk185

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

okay mega i hear yer point and maybe that logic is sound for some who blame equipment for all errors but i would say i wasted a lot of shooting years with less than optimum gear and thought i was a so,so shooter until almost by accident fell behind a savage 300 win mag and match ammo. discovered i was suddenly transformed into a benchrest jedi. learned rifle and ammo do make a world of difference and i bet some never have this awakening because of some of the stuff that passes for "entry level" mainstream gear and advisors who say "keep practicing." id say get what makes you confident so you can focus on fundamentals.
 

Falar

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I built an AR-15 with all Larue, Magpul, and Noveske (barrel) parts, the thing is dang nice, in fact I don't know what I could have done much better on it. 16.1" barrel with 1:8 twist. Maybe I should just shoot that. How accurate in terms of MOA could a direct impingment rifle be though compared to a bolt? </div></div>

I wouldn't say outright that 1/2" MOA is impossible, but I've yet to see an AR that shoots 1/2" groups at 100yds EVERY TIME. However, it seems that it isn't too hard to find someone shooting consistent sub MOA groups with ARs these days. ARs are possibly the most accurate semi autos, but they still give up plenty to a good bolt gun. I'm sure many shooters aren't even capable of wringing out the extra bit of accuracy from a gun that shoots just a little bit better than a sub-MOA AR.
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">okay mega i hear yer point and maybe that logic is sound for some who blame equipment for all errors but i would say i wasted a lot of shooting years with less than optimum gear and thought i was a so,so shooter until almost by accident fell behind a savage 300 win mag and match ammo. discovered i was suddenly transformed into a benchrest jedi. learned rifle and ammo do make a world of difference and i bet some never have this awakening because of some of the stuff that passes for "entry level" mainstream gear and advisors who say "keep practicing." id say get what makes you confident so you can focus on fundamentals. </div></div>

Yea and I mean look at it this way, how could having "too much accuracy" possibly be a problem?
 

[email protected]

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">okay mega i hear yer point and maybe that logic is sound for some who blame equipment for all errors but i would say i wasted a lot of shooting years with less than optimum gear and thought i was a so,so shooter until almost by accident fell behind a savage 300 win mag and match ammo. discovered i was suddenly transformed into a benchrest jedi. learned rifle and ammo do make a world of difference and i bet some never have this awakening because of some of the stuff that passes for "entry level" mainstream gear and advisors who say "keep practicing." id say get what makes you confident so you can focus on fundamentals. </div></div>

Yea and I mean look at it this way, how could having "too much accuracy" possibly be a problem? </div></div>

I dont think anyone would say that it's a problem, but rather that you would not know if it was "too accurate" or not without experience. A lot of folks get their BB stuck on trying to get the .000001 MOA rifle and lose focus on getting their skills to 1 MOA in the first place. Nothing wrong with getting something nice right out of the gate, just remember that if the gun says .1 or 1 MOA it is moot if you can't keep up with it.

Have fun with whatever you end up getting!
 

SDCadet

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

If you want to save coin, buy an SPS varmint, put it in a decent stock, and send it to somebody for truing, bedding, and/or trigger work. Assume $500 for the rifle, $500 for the stock, $500 for the custom work (totally rough estimates), and you're at $1500 before optics. Cheapest custom pre-built I know of is $2400 (granted you get about $900 worth of extra stuff for it). But unless you're competing, you really won't need more than that. Hell get a Savage or CZ if you want, doesn't matter, just send whatever you buy to somebody with $500-1000 and a note that says "make me better".

Regardless, if you've just got a hard-on for the idea of having a half-moa gun, and can eat the cost, buy a custom. Pretty much guaranteed you won't be disappointed.
 

rwcathunter

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

i have an sps varmint in .243 and a savge f t/r .308, both will shoot sub 1/2 moa if i do my part. if you buy an sps varmint do yourself a favor and upgrade the stock.
 

Hooper

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Feuer Frei</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to save coin, buy an SPS varmint, put it in a decent stock, and send it to somebody for truing, bedding, and/or trigger work. Assume $500 for the rifle, $500 for the stock, $500 for the custom work (totally rough estimates), and you're at $1500 before optics. Cheapest custom pre-built I know of is $2400 (granted you get about $900 worth of extra stuff for it). But unless you're competing, you really won't need more than that. Hell get a Savage or CZ if you want, doesn't matter, just send whatever you buy to somebody with $500-1000 and a note that says "make me better".

Regardless, if you've just got a hard-on for the idea of having a half-moa gun, and can eat the cost, buy a custom. Pretty much guaranteed you won't be disappointed. </div></div>

+1
There is nothing wrong with a Remington Police with some polishing. Bed it, JB the bore, add a Karsten cheek piece, badger hardware, decent glass and go to the range. If you end up with a marginal barrel, you have a great starting point for a custom barrel.
 

Megacab

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: marduk185</div><div class="ubbcode-body">okay mega i hear yer point and maybe that logic is sound for some who blame equipment for all errors but i would say i wasted a lot of shooting years with less than optimum gear and thought i was a so,so shooter until almost by accident fell behind a savage 300 win mag and match ammo. discovered i was suddenly transformed into a benchrest jedi. learned rifle and ammo do make a world of difference and i bet some never have this awakening because of some of the stuff that passes for "entry level" mainstream gear and advisors who say "keep practicing." id say get what makes you confident so you can focus on fundamentals. </div></div>

HA!

I'm not saying run down to the Local Wally World and buy their Winchester Special for $199, slap a $32 scope on it, and expect gold.

I agree rifle and ammo make the difference, but am I not advocating he run out and a huge pile of cash that could be better served being spent on a lesser gun system (The PSS was mentioned, and mine was FAR less than MOA) and some range/course time. I'm glad to hear the Force was strong in you, and that Yoda taught you well. Training is training. Basics are basics. Fundamentals are fundamentals. The uber eschelon of top rifles my indeed shoot 1/2 MOA, or less. But does he really NEED that at this stage? Shit no. If he bought a Sav, or a PSS and worked on his shooting, can you actually tell me that if he improved enough to need a better stick that he would take such a bath trying to sell them that he would tell himself he should have ponied up for a GAP in the first place?

If yes?
Put the Kool-Aid down, and back away from the keyboard.
grin.gif




Jack


 

sr15match

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

Does the rifle have to be new? Does it need to be a tactical model? There are plenty of used varmint rifles floating around.

My best out of the box experiences have been with Savage. My .223 BVSS was probably the best of all. Secondly were the few 10FP's. I also had a Remington VL that was about on par with the Savage but required some care to make it shoot. These were 10+ years ago though.

I've had 7 (I think) different Remington Tactical rifles (PSS & LTR) in both .223 & .308 over the years and all were fairly good sticks. A couple needed more "attention" than others though.

Also really look around at maybe a used Remington 40X. The prices are way better than paying for a new one and there seems to be no shortage of 22-250's out there.

There are lots of options if on a budget. Otherwise spend the long dollar once like you said and get it over with.

my .02¢
 

The Mall Ninja

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

my 700 shoots 1/2 some time, sub moa, 99% of the time, and unless I'm just pointing and pulling the trigger i can get it to fire in the direction of my choice all of the time
 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

Hey first off guys, THANKS for all the helpful replies. It was too easy for someone to do the 'ol "use the search function blah blah blah" reply to the noob. Really appreciate y'all not doing that. Thanks again.

So 700 versus Savage action...I dunno for some reason my mind is programmed to think that the 700 action is kind of like the 1911 in pistols...it's respected and there is a LOT of stuff built for it, whereas you buy a Sig and it's a real nice shooter but not nearly as many supporting products and services. Is this true?
 

ChadTRG42

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

First- will you handload your ammunition? If no, then the 1/2 MOA from a factory rifle, in my opinion, is going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible. You might find that 1 factory load that shoots well after trying many different boxes, but it will not be as consistent as handloads.

Second- I do load work up on a lot of factory hunting/tactical rigs. Getting them to shoot under MOA is not too hard. Most come in around 3/4 MOA. 1/2 MOA is another story. There are some out there that will do it. But getting to this kind of accuracy is not a coincidence. You are getting into custom rifles with top components to shoot this good and be consistant.

Third- shooting consistently 1/2 MOA could be challenging to do. I have taken customers out that said they could shoot very well, and end up wasting my test loads because they pull shots one after another. So, can the shooter shoot 1/2 MOA?

Talking about your Wally World special and 1/2 MOA accuracy is a joke, and shouldn't even be in the same sentence. If you are looking for the best factory rifle and expect 1/2 MOA, you will probably be disappointed. Some of the rifles that I have found that shoot well are the Tikka's, Howa's, Remington's, and a few Browning's. These are all with custom handloads. If I had to pick one, it would be a Tikka. All of the Tikka's I have done shot very well.
My $.02

Chad

 

Plasmech

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Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

I just looked at the Tikka's onlin, wow does their Super Varmint *appear* to be exactly what I am looking for. Adjustable cheek weld, pic rail, oversized bolt handle...really sweet looking. Ever shoot one?
 

Kells81

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    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    I have a Walmart ADL 243, was $275 on clearence when they were switching to the SPS's, ordered a B&C stock from midway tuned the trigger and did some loadwork, it will shoot 1/2" every time with handloads, factory is not as pretty but still 3/4-1" have had it a few years and its my go to deer rifle.

    Had my wife meet a hide member to pick up a SPS tactical 308 in an AICS great rig and its a hole punch. While I was at home I picked up an XCR LR Tactical and switched it into the AICS. great first groups but didnt have much time to mess with it before I came back over here. It showed alot of promise out of the box with some handloads for another rifle but I think the common denominator is the AICS and great glass.


    Off the shelf rifles with factory ammo and accuracy is a crapshoot. you gain alot by reloading.

    get an SPS Tactical or Varmint, and find a takeoff HS stock or find a used PSS tons of 223 ammo and shoot the shit out of it. dont worry about accuracy get the basics down and work from there


    Cooper has about the best out of the box rifle for accuracy, I have a couple and they are lasers, the problem is you have to reload to get the laser effect. my 223 shoots great with great factory ammo, but its a hole punch with handloads. my 6.5x284 is also a hole punch, havent ever tried factory ammo through it though
     

    Tioga

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    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    Watch the auction sites and buy a Sako 75 varmint for around 1000-1200 and it will shoot 1/2 MOA.There is a Tikka 595 for 720 on one site now with heavy barrel that will do the trick.
     

    jeffersonv

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    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    I'd say stay away from the 223 right now. You would think ammo for this caliber would always be available.
    Not now. Maybe not ever with the damage the libs are doing. Who knows?
    Reloading is a problem too. Try getting small rifle primers or powder right now.

    I seem to remember the FN SPR-USG and H-S Precision HTR (the ones selected by FBI) attaining 1/2 moa as well as other lofty standards. Both off the shelf rifles I believe.

    OK, link below. Hope it's ok to include a link to an article?

    http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Precision+Pair

    Just re-read the article. I didn't see it mentioned that the rifles were required to cycle 10000 rounds without fail. I like that part
    wink.gif
     

    Geno C.

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    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    +1 on the Sako 75 mine is very capable of 1/2 moa and as long as you don't need to shoot way out there, it should serve you very well. The slower twist is best suited for lighter bullets. About the only things I can say that I like better about my Sako over my Cooper are the stock and that it is a repeater. But you're about in the 1k mark just for the rifle. You haven't really told us what you are looking to spend.

    Quality glass is very important also it you are looking for that kind of accuracy, with consistancy.
     

    BgBmBoo

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    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    I am a fan of Tikka's. I have owned the Tactical in .308 and own two Lite models. One in .243 and one in .223.
    With quality factory ammo and with me doing things right...they will shoot sub 1/2" five shot groups at 100yrds.
    If I do not shoot often then my groups open up. Like many stated above...the rifle may be able to shoot 1/2" groups but are you?

    Now I have started hand loading and I can not get a load to work in the .223 Lite that is sub 1". But did stumble on a good load for my JP upper AR...it shoots solid 3/4" groups.

    The Tikka Super Varmint is a very nice rifle and for the price you will be hard pressed to find another OFF THE SHELF rifle you can take out of the box and do NOTHING to it and it should shoot.

    All my Tikka's would out shoot my TRG-22 in fact.

    My two Lite models cost me about $1100 TOTAL....glass,rifle,rings,etc. I am using the Bushnell Elite 6500 scopes on both.

    Good luck on you search,Stan

    Here are some groups all shot with my Tikka's...all are 5 shot groups at 100yrds.















     

    Victor Co Heather

    Victor Company USA
    Commercial Supporter
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    Minuteman
    Aug 19, 2006
    1,776
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    SOCAL USA
    www.victorcompanyusa.com
    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Megacab</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skeetlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Besides that, can you shoot 1/2 moa? </div></div>

    Lee gets the gold star for the question that everyone should have asked first.
    grin.gif


    </div></div>

    Yeah, my POS GAP 308 only shot .8 MOA last weekend... must be broken, I know I was aiming at the bullseye.

    laugh.gif


     

    199thINF

    Private
    Minuteman
    Feb 10, 2009
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    Spokane, WA
    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    Although it is a valid point, from a person just getting into LR shooting stuff (which I am, and it sounds like Plasmech is) there is something to be said for having confidence that the rifle/equipment is doing its part. That leaves our (the shooter's) error to be blamed when shooting like crap. Just a n00b's perspective
    smile.gif
    Lots of good info though and thaks for all your guys' experience.... Helps us out a lot!!!

    James
     

    Libertas

    Private
    Minuteman
    Apr 27, 2009
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    58
    Southern Indiana
    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    Does it have to be a bolt gun? I have a Les Baer 6.5 Grendel that comes with a 1/2" guarantee and is a joy to shoot.
     

    matt33

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    Apr 1, 2009
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    Bradford/Susquehanna Co, PA
    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Plasmech</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alta Redneck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">what about a cooper </div></div>

    I've heard about Cooper. Unfortunately with The Socialist (TM) in office, all the gun guys are backlogged more than a year.</div></div>
    Amazingly, Mr. Cooper voted for The Socialist last November. He's free to do so, as I am free to buy someone else's rifle.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-10-30-gun-ceo-ousted_N.htm
     

    Jason280

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    Dec 18, 2005
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    GA
    Re: Trying to decide on a 1/2 MOA bolt gun

    Consistent 1/2 MOA guns aren't quite as common as some shooters would have you believe. In fact, most of the people (and I am not pointing fingers) claiming to have guns capable are blowing smoke up their own arses. Sure, they may occasionally throw five rounds into 1/2", but doing this on a day to day basis in all conditions is a completely different animal. Actually, to take that comment one step further, I doubt less than 50% or more of those making this claim could legitimately provide five consecutive targets of 5-shot 1/2 MOA groups. Sure, I could gather up five different targets from various outings on different days, but that doesn't mean jack.

    Now, I am not talking about true bench guys, those shooting 22 PPC in Stolle actions under 36x Leupolds. These guys start rebarreling when groups "open up" to 0.5" at 100 yards. No, I am talking about the tactical shooter who just bolted a 10x mil dot on an out of the box Remington LTR, Savage 10FP, or FN PBR. Am I suggesting these guns aren't capable of half-inch groups? No, just not likely on a consistent basis.

    As many will tell you (and have suggested), shooting 1/2 MOA takes a lot more than having a 1/2 minute potential gun. You must have ammo consistent enough to shoot 1/2, an optic good enough to repeat this feat, and more importantly, the monkey behind the wrench must be competent enough to shoot that well. Simply buying equipment capable of these groups does not guarantee a thing, especially if the shooter is unable to take advantage of the potential.

    However, I do believe there are a lot of guns out there with the potential of being true 1/2 MOA guns. Personally, I would start off with a Savage 10FP in either .223 or .308. I have quite a few of these guns, and they are honest 3/4" rifles. Hell, they will even throw 1/2" groups, but not often enough for me to call them 1/2 MOA guns with a straight face. Nevertheless, a 3/4" gun will likely accomplish the goals of 90% of the tactical shooters on this board, at least those who do a more than shoot paper at 100 yards on every outing.

    Starting with a 10FP will certainly get you in the door and legitimately close to being a true 3/4 or less gun. The beauty of the Savage is, if the barrel doesn't live up to your standards, you can rebarrel it at home and be shooting in less than an hour. No need to drop it off at a 'smith for 3 months, simply order up a hand lapped prefitted Lothar Walther barrel, bolt it on/headspace, and you will likely be ready to shoot in the amount of time it would take you to drive a Remington to the gun shop. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking Remington actions, and I have quite a few of them as well. But, they are not as "user friendly" as a Savage, and I have not seen them to be anymore accurate out of the box than a run of the mill Savage. There is very little that cannot be done to a Savage in your basement, while there is very little you can do to a Remington.

    Of course, even building a rifle doesn't guarantee a thing if you don't have the ammo. This means reloading, and its a whole new ball game...