- Thread starter TheOtherAndrew
- Start date
Zero at about 650yds and never touch your turret. you'll be the same distance high at 100 as you will be low at 1000. learn your reticle and hold.
Meme Generator
memegenerator.net If I had access to a range like GG Juan Id do all this and tape it because I think it has a use/potential - especially for normal 6.5CM/.308.
BUT yes it IS the same solutions if you go by barrel angle....why some people dial wind (apparently Feniks), some hold - could argue ones faster, could argue the other is more precise. But user preference is all were really talking about.
I encourage ppl to show me just their ballistic solver results and see how close you are when you fall inside the limits I set and at most use 1 extreme. But if somebody who has the access wants to try a real run and show how precise OR imprecise it is real world Id love to see that too.
Just a trend I noticed and ran with it.
BUT yes it IS the same solutions if you go by barrel angle....why some people dial wind (apparently Feniks), some hold - could argue ones faster, could argue the other is more precise. But user preference is all were really talking about.
I encourage ppl to show me just their ballistic solver results and see how close you are when you fall inside the limits I set and at most use 1 extreme. But if somebody who has the access wants to try a real run and show how precise OR imprecise it is real world Id love to see that too.
Just a trend I noticed and ran with it.
Last edited:
Because your spotter (and his dope notes) will assume that's what your using, and he will base his calls upon that.
All the beer-drinking deer hunters in my area just throw a Budwieser can down on the ground at about 10 feet and adjust until they hit the center of the top. Does that count? They sure shoot a lot, but don't seem to bring home many deer. Their excuse is usually brush getting in the way.
So you haven’t done this but just think like it sounds like something that would work?
Sounds like a loaded question - should I even bother responding at this point?
I successfully got a bunch of ppl engaged over a supposedly "dead" topic
Then I explained the real motivation behind the original question. I did get zero info I had expected to get - but got info that has some value nonetheless I suppose.
That said, Id be willing to bet that it works very closely to the way I described, taking into account theory vs reality.
---------------
What more do you want? You have to start somewhere in order to get anywhere....
If youre a diehard 100yd zero till you die fan - like many on this thread - then why act like you even give a damn about anything I say past that?
I successfully got a bunch of ppl engaged over a supposedly "dead" topic
Then I explained the real motivation behind the original question. I did get zero info I had expected to get - but got info that has some value nonetheless I suppose.
That said, Id be willing to bet that it works very closely to the way I described, taking into account theory vs reality.
---------------
What more do you want? You have to start somewhere in order to get anywhere....
If youre a diehard 100yd zero till you die fan - like many on this thread - then why act like you even give a damn about anything I say past that?
I said be productive - plug in one number into your own ballistic profile and tell me where your numbers come out. Am I asking too much - really I just wanted to see you guys prove me wrong at 'my own [game]' so to speak since it seems to be what y'all thrive on. Give it a shot.
It'd be much less wasted time on comments with little to no real insight - does anybody still continue to think I dont understand how a 100yd zero works, or how its all the same just different ways of 'slicing the cat?'
It'd be much less wasted time on comments with little to no real insight - does anybody still continue to think I dont understand how a 100yd zero works, or how its all the same just different ways of 'slicing the cat?'
Last edited:
Not a loaded question but wondering if you are working from experience or theory. Sounds like theory. So why don't you put the work in and see if it works before you start calling everyone out and prove your theory is better than the way a vast majority of people do it now? Like I told someone in another thread on tuners, don't expect others to do your work. Get out there and do it and prove to yourself and other if it works.
And yes as of now I am a solid 100 yard zero person because it works, is easy to not get it confused with when shooting and works well with any zero stop. Been using it for 3 decades but always learning in this sport.
And dialing on 400 yards and using it is not new. We did that 20 years ago on a stage of fire at Rifles only called Moving Chaos whrre you had a mover at 400yards and then targets at shorter ranges and a couple at farther ranges and with a small time limit you dialed on your 400 so you could have the horizontal marks for mover holds and then held under for the close and over for the far and then back to 400for the mover again. It worked there but as a general way to set up a scope I do not see any advantage and more issues having to go both under and over your zero.
Answered in post 3, and elaborated on further by others
- All dialing is up regardless of the distance
- Negligible impact by env
- Minimal impact by wind
- Wide band of distances 90-110 where zero is effective, longer zeros require very accurate distance verification
- And for the MPBR, or Speed drops you can still be efit from above then dial the number and move on.
Set your zero stop at 100 if you shoot a lot at short range. Some of us don’t, we prefer a setting of say 300 or 500
wind?? Wind has the same impact on bullet trajectory regardless of zero-stop setting.
verification. You should always verify your DOPE at distance before you do serious shooting at that range
Covered in post 3
zero at 100 set to 300 and forget it. Travels anywhere in the world, adjust to local DA adjust to your number.
I have my 22-250 sighted in for 200. Point blank is 270yds any gopher inside that range will be standing with Jesus shortly. With thousands of little critters running all over the range all I have to do is establish were 270 is and put the cross hairs on the varmints. Once they are cleared I can dope past that or break out the 22 creed. Which is a hundred yard zero.
I don't have the access to that kind of target package.
All I asked was for you to plug in one number on your profile and see...post the results.
You know about Kraft Drill I assume...its the same thing - using multiple people [datasets that aren't your own manipulated ones] to get a better grasp on the underlying physics.
Id say Im asking even less than Kraft Drill. Plug the number 400 in and check the results 1-700yd then post.
If thats me asking too much work from you guys then Ive been thrown through another loop here on the Hide that I didn't see coming. I did a lot of work on this already everything I can up to reality - so right now the phase is can others replicate my theoretical results with their specific ballistic profiles, what are the limits then, where do the numbers start to break down? Because tryDOPE and truDOPE are different - I used all tryDOPEs on different calibers/bullet weights but you guys should have truDOPE and that is more valuable to me as of now (as it should be).
You can even do 1 answer at 2kDA 1 answer at 6kDA. But that'd be 2x the work I suppose...but doubles the chances of you proving me wrong!
Use 100yd zero for all rifles. Longer distances begin to introduce atmospheric/wind, ammo, shooter variables into the mix making the zero more "about zeroed." If one zeros at longer distances and holds for shots under their zero range, then one can zero at 100.....eliminating the myriad of variables introduced above 100......and hold for distances betwee 100 zero to their considered longer zero. Also, for traveling hunters/shooters, it is easier to find a 100yd range at base camp to confirm zero and local atmospherics baseline. Real pros ala Bryan Litz, Todd Hodnett concur. Guides will typically be more comfortable with this technique also.
Turrets are fer twirling. If ya' can't rely on the twirl in your turret, you merely mounted a monocular on your rifle....it is not a scope.
I hope that you're joking.
Say whut???? Don't leave home without your skid lid anymore. Concussions are a terrible malady.........
Last edited:
Range | Velocity (fps) | Energy (ft-lbs) | Elevation (mils) | Windage (mils) | TOF (s) |
100 | 2691 | 4022 | 1.64 | 0.09 | 0.11 |
200 | 2585 | 3710 | 1.29 | 0.18 | 0.22 |
300 | 2481 | 3418 | 0.69 | 0.27 | 0.34 |
400 | 2380 | 3144 | 0.00 | 0.36 | 0.46 |
500 | 2280 | 2887 | -0.76 | 0.46 | 0.59 |
600 | 2184 | 2648 | -1.57 | 0.56 | 0.73 |
700 | 2089 | 2424 | -2.44 | 0.67 | 0.87 |
800 | 1997 | 2215 | -3.37 | 0.78 | 1.01 |
900 | 1908 | 2020 | -4.36 | 0.90 | 1.17 |
1000 | 1820 | 1838 | -5.41 | 1.02 | 1.33 |
Proof positive.......I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. Euphoric watching the minds explode......
| Range | Velocity (fps) | Energy (ft-lbs) | Elevation (inches) | Windage (inches) | TOF (s) |
100 | 2691 | 4022 | 5.91 | 0.33 | 0.11 |
200 | 2585 | 3710 | 9.28 | 1.29 | 0.22 |
300 | 2481 | 3418 | 7.47 | 2.91 | 0.34 |
400 | 2380 | 3144 | 0.00 | 5.24 | 0.46 |
500 | 2280 | 2887 | -13.59 | 8.32 | 0.59 |
600 | 2184 | 2648 | -33.86 | 12.19 | 0.73 |
700 | 2089 | 2424 | -61.40 | 16.91 | 0.87 |
800 | 1997 | 2215 | -96.90 | 22.53 | 1.01 |
900 | 1908 | 2020 | -141.09 | 29.12 | 1.17 |
1000 | 1820 | 1838 | -194.83 | 36.75 | 1.33 |
You’re getting zeroing and sighting-in confused. As you suggest, I sight-in and do load development at 100yds to minimize atmospheric effects. If I’m shooting at 800 yards my scope is zeroed at 800 yards—I don’t hold for vertical. I hold for wind
Seein' a M79 as more your style.........
Ya, but everyone knows SEALs are all wet and sugar cookied.........
I really, really hope you are joking. You would want a WallyWorld "scope" that you can't trust the turrets to dial??? Squirt gunny, ya' gotta try harder to remember to open the door 'fore tryin' to walk through it.......
You're a fucking idiot, go away.
There seems to be a big difference between this and the Kraft drill. The Kraft drill is a measure of your accuracy in different positions. 100% dependent on each person.
What you are asking if for everyone to post data from the same ballistics engines which will still just give us a bunch of different theoretical numbers. There are no facts here.
Unless I missed the point and you are a lot smarter than it appears? and really have come up with a whole new window to look through? Unlikely.
When I think of a zero other than 100 yds, I think of it as maximizing PBR (ability to hold dead on and hit regardless of range). Having to hold under to make the hit really doesn't make sense to me because then I'm required to know the yardage and I might as well dial with an exact solution.
Something else that is often forgotten in these theories is the group size a gun (and individual) is capable of. So at best, you should account for a round landing 1/2 minute high or low (for a system that shoots 1 MOA). Of course this is 2" at 400 yds which is 20% of your intended 10" target. This takes away a lot of the benefit of using a nonstandard zero and is another variable that is real.
While it's good to root out the institutional inbreeding where necessary, there are some things that just make sense
ETA: Math
Something else that is often forgotten in these theories is the group size a gun (and individual) is capable of. So at best, you should account for a round landing 1/2 minute high or low (for a system that shoots 1 MOA). Of course this is 2" at 400 yds which is 20% of your intended 10" target. This takes away a lot of the benefit of using a nonstandard zero and is another variable that is real.
While it's good to root out the institutional inbreeding where necessary, there are some things that just make sense
ETA: Math
Last edited:
Speed Drop. This is some valuable information for long range shooting.
Speed Drop (UPDATE)
Finding your Speed Drop Factor
Its already been done. The trend has been found, set, studied, filmed, used, applied and published. A Kestrel Elite will even calculate this effective range for you. This google sheet will calculate this for you.
_________________________________
I'll quote myself:
"Most rifle calibers have a portion of their bullet flight where the relationship between the drop of the bullet and distance traveled is consistent. A zone where every 100yds of distance is an additional 1mil of elevation. As an example, if our data says 500yds = ~2.5mils, 600 = ~3.5mils, and 700 = ~4.5 mils we can start to see this consistent relationship between distance and come-up. For every 100 yards traveled the come-up is changing 1 mil. As the bullet gets further away and starts to slow down more quickly, this relationship will start to change and will no longer be a constant value, but in the ranges that it works we can use it to our advantage to quickly calculate our come-up."
__________________________________
For most of our competition calibers its 400-800yds. For magnums is 700-1100 yards. (For bb guns is 25-50 yards.)
No, none of them/us zero at 400yards (or the start of thier speed drop range) to make this work. We all, still, zero (check point of aim = point of impact) at 100yds them move caps to make this work. Or Dial down to our 100yard dero (2.5 mils in the photos below) to check zero at 100yards using the main stadia lines.
You can set your turret to 4mils for 400 yards or you can slip it the same as your speed drop factor and 4mils will equal your 400 drop.
This is the same thing you are trying to show us you found out about.
Still POI=POA check is at 100yds because we are shooting 1-1.5 MOA targets, not full IPSCs.
Honest question - Why would you not dial down to your 100yard zero and check it there?
Example = your 30hate with 100yard zero has 2.8 mils up for 400yards. So you dial up 2.8 mils then slip your caps to 4.0 mils (IE your idea of a 400 yard zero and setting) You can dial down to 1.2 mils and use your main stadia to zero at 100yards. (you can still use speed drop and zero at 100yards without changing your caps)
Great
Range
Velocity
(fps)Energy
(ft-lbs)Elevation
(mils)Windage
(mils)TOF
(s)
But you didn't post what your using to get those numbers....
closest replica I can make is:
250gr bullet (338 cal) (BC .314) @2800fps in 6kDA.
Last edited:
i picked 338SS cause i'm planning on building one for elk hunting and knew the data
berger 153.5 at 2750 below. the drop values are basically the same btw
| Range | Velocity (fps) | Energy (ft-lbs) | Elevation (inches) | Windage (inches) | TOF (s) |
100 | 2644 | 2391 | 6.19 | 0.33 | 0.11 |
200 | 2540 | 2207 | 9.65 | 1.30 | 0.23 |
300 | 2439 | 2034 | 7.74 | 2.94 | 0.35 |
400 | 2340 | 1872 | 0.00 | 5.30 | 0.47 |
500 | 2243 | 1720 | -14.09 | 8.41 | 0.60 |
600 | 2148 | 1578 | -35.08 | 12.32 | 0.74 |
700 | 2056 | 1446 | -63.58 | 17.09 | 0.88 |
800 | 1966 | 1322 | -100.30 | 22.77 | 1.03 |
900 | 1878 | 1207 | -146.00 | 29.43 | 1.18 |
1000 | 1792 | 1099 | -201.54 | 37.13 | 1.35 |
i'll use a 7SAW load. 175 Elite Hunter at 2700fps
shock its basically the same data once again
shock its basically the same data once again
| Range | Velocity (fps) | Energy (ft-lbs) | Elevation (inches) | Windage (inches) | TOF (s) |
100 | 2589 | 2605 | 6.56 | 0.36 | 0.11 |
200 | 2480 | 2391 | 10.19 | 1.42 | 0.23 |
300 | 2374 | 2191 | 8.17 | 3.21 | 0.35 |
400 | 2271 | 2004 | 0.00 | 5.79 | 0.48 |
500 | 2170 | 1830 | -14.91 | 9.21 | 0.62 |
600 | 2072 | 1668 | -37.18 | 13.52 | 0.76 |
700 | 1976 | 1518 | -67.55 | 18.78 | 0.91 |
800 | 1883 | 1378 | -106.81 | 25.07 | 1.06 |
900 | 1792 | 1248 | -155.86 | 32.47 | 1.22 |
1000 | 1703 | 1127 | -215.72 | 41.05 | 1.40 |
Ive read that specific thread and applaud you for writing it. We've established that the ballistic (barrel angle) will be the same no matter how you manipulate the scope for each range. Im doing it a tad differently.
-2mil hold at 100yds (400yd zero, turrets aligned to 4.0 @ 400) is within 3" on a 100yd target. I suppose that is 3MOA but it is in all fairness outside of the "sweet spot" zone as you know - so for ultra precision in that zone Id just dial whatever my specific DOPE is on that gun (say -2.3) so DOPE would read as "1.7"....dial to 1.7 and you are hitting that 1" sticker.
i'll use a 7SAW load. 175 Elite Hunter at 2700fps
shock its basically the same data once again
Range
Velocity
(fps)Energy
(ft-lbs)Elevation
(inches)Windage
(inches)TOF
(s)
But if I plug in what you told me I get
100 = -2.0
200 = -1.5
300 = -.8
400 = 0
500 = 0.9
600 = 1.8
700 = 2.9
800 = 4.1
900 = 5.3
*but im using theoretical data not a profile thats been tested at the range - so if your data is real world Ill defer to your numbers.
Pretty darn close
So its a combination of a long point blank range and speed drop.
Here is a slow 6.5 creed (factor Hornady 140ELD loads) with a 400 yard zero. That make is 2.2 mils down to 100yards. That 7.92 inches high at 100yards. I don't think this is accurate enough for most users.
not even close
Yeah actually it is as I don’t have enough time for my own stuff and honestly don’t care that much about what you want to prove. Lol Good luck.
This is where you are wrong. Thats 7.2 inches at 100 yards (not 3")
0.2 mils off of the established (-2.0) mil hold for 100yd makes the difference 0.2mil which is .72 inches not 7.2inches
except its positive value. hold under
Idea being that most shots inside 300yd is done with 5.56 anyway. the DMR (bolt action 6.5/308) role as I understand it is about taking out the threats 3-700yd. I am not military I do not claim to be - so correct what you want thats just my interpretation.
Also, at matches how many shots are inside 300yd? most are 300-900 Id say.
Also, at matches how many shots are inside 300yd? most are 300-900 Id say.
cmon your better than that - parse much?
hold under implies a negative hold....it really is an insignificant part to point out were just nitpicking now I think you can understand the point being conveyed.
edit - sorry I though Jackmaster said that....b6graham that is definitely in your wheel house to say, just like not posting the mil answer and instead putting it as inches. But no big deal do it whichever way you like Im glad you did it at all.
only if using the god send of reticles. the Tremor3
