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We should buy a Chevy Volt

kraigWY

kraigWY

CMP GSM MI
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 10, 2006
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Wyoming
Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors.



For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine.



Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph.



According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.



The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity.



I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh.



16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery.



$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.



Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.



$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.



The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000.



So we should pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 time as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country.



REALLY?
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

My biggest issue with hybrids isn't the inefficiency of the system, it's that the batteries only last 6-10 years before they have to be replaced, for a cost of around $5k, which is more than you would pay for in gas over that time period with a conventional engine that's small. The batteries are also made of nickel-cadmium which is a poisonous heavy metal and the mining process is very environmentally unfriendly, which makes me laugh because they're trying to "save the planet" with a car made from a material which kills everything it touches.

We've got a mini-cooper which gets the same gas mileage, without any of the issues, and it is a hell of a lot more fun to drive than any POS hybrid.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

Hybrids and 'plug-in electric' vehicles are dumb. The best option for fuel efficiency is a Diesel engine, which can run on many different fuels. Nothing else comes close.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

I don't know if you saw it but the Secretary of Energy was testifying before some committee and praised the Volt, when asked if he drove one he admitted he did not own a car at all. This is the same DoE that gave half a billion dollars to a company that will produce an electric car similar to the Tesla; overseas. It's like the nutters are running the asylum and the Volt is just proof.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids and 'plug-in electric' vehicles are dumb. The best option for fuel efficiency is a Diesel engine, which can run on many different fuels. Nothing else comes close.</div></div>
Don't most european (small diesel) cars get incredible gas mileage? Too bad americans want huge flashy, "cool" vehicles, not practical things.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Alaskaman 11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want a Hybrids, just go buy a Mini, at lease have fun and look cool! </div></div> I remember reading an article by one of the car mags editors where he compared his Elise to his wife's JCW Mini and figured out her car was faster, more nimble, and got better gas mileage. After the photo for the article he sold his Elise.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

These numbers are way off the rate of electricity here in TN from MLGW is $0.287 so a full charge cost $4.592.

With a Volt you don't have to stop and charge the battery you just put more gas in it so using his numbers a 270 mile trip would take 4.5 hours not 14.5.

Here he did not specify the charging voltage, the 120v charger takes 10 hours most users have 220v chargers which takes 4 hours and the 440 takes about 1 hour.

According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery.



Correct number $0.183 per mile

$18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery.



Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg.

He is correct here

$3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.

There are no new cars on the market that average 32mpg for $15,000 the cheapest new car that averages 32mpg with the same trim options as the volt is $24,310

The gasoline powered car cost about $24,310 while the Volt costs $39,995 without the tax credit .



to drive across country 2443.79 miles.
32mpg car = $236.74
volt 32mpg + 20 miles electricity = $234.80

The Volt was not built to be a cross country car it is for city driving with the ability to go long distance



[/quote]
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

and how is 70% of the electricity produced in this country?

burning some sort of fossil fuel... so somebody explain to me where hybrids are doing anything better in the overall energy efficiency equation.

I met the original American designer of the Prius, he flew the same type of Russian airplane as I did in CA. This airplane had a 400hp radial engine that spewed out more emissions than just about any personal aircraft you could fly. He wasn't some granola loving nut. He enjoyed the technical challenge of creating the hybrid. He wasn't under some false impression that his car would save the world. I don't know why his customers are. (btw he later passed away in that airplane during a practice session)

If environmentalists were serious, they would ride bicycles and hike everywhere. Until then, they are just hypocrites.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

What ever happened to the Honda Civic's of the mid to late 80's that were getting between 40 and 50 MPG??? All on a 100% gasoline engine.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

Kraig, look at my location Brother. And yeah, even here we are seeing these hippies move in.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

If only we could just drive abrams tanks. They can run on anything combustable and road rage would be so much more fun.
grin.gif
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

The oil companies don't like cars that are efficient. They will do anything to keep better ideas hidden. A good friend of mine designed a fuel injector that required 6 parts and was more efficient. He died in his car when it caught fire while drib=ving down the road. He could not get out of the car. Locks were inop, and door handles inop. If an idea does surface they buy it and hide it or eliminate the guy who had the idea.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

The governments dirty little secret is that they make more on gas than anyone in the business. Do you think they really want you to buy less of it?
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids and 'plug-in electric' vehicles are dumb. The best option for fuel efficiency is a Diesel engine, which can run on many different fuels. Nothing else comes close.</div></div>
Don't most european (small diesel) cars get incredible gas mileage? Too bad americans want huge flashy, "cool" vehicles, not practical things. </div></div>

I own light trucks. Three to be exact and about to buy a 4th for little cub once she's off to college in the fall.

I work out of my trucks, carry my family in them, and one is my oldest daughter's. They are paid for! I appreciate the additional mass of protection they provide.

Safety is worth something. Safety is practical.

Kraig's post points out just some of the fallacies relating to the chimera that is hybrid vehicles today. There are many more.

I'll believe when I see an aircraft that can take off and fly using alternative energy.

 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids and 'plug-in electric' vehicles are dumb. The best option for fuel efficiency is a Diesel engine, which can run on many different fuels. Nothing else comes close.</div></div>
Don't most european (small diesel) cars get incredible gas mileage? Too bad americans want huge flashy, "cool" vehicles, not practical things. </div></div>


I drive a Mercedes '05' E320 CDI (diesel). After changing to all Amsoil lubricants I average 32 combined, and 38 highway. At $3.80 per gallon for diesel, thatss %.10 per mile. Bought it used with 30.000 for $26,000.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

The battery life issue never made sense to me. I guess there were not enough tree huggers to keep it going full time.

<span style="font-weight: bold">GM Halts Production Of Chevy Volt</span>.
NBC Nightly News (3/2, story 8, 0:25, Williams) reported, "Sales of the still-new electric hybrid Chevy Volt are not moving as fast as Chevy would like, so they are going to idle the production line and GM will lay off 1,300 workers for a five-week period. The Volt is pricey, a little north of $33,000 and they sold fewer than 10,000 of them so far."
The Wall Street Journal (3/3, A1, Terlep, Subscription Publication) reported in a front-page story that the company will lay off 1,300 workers at the plant which had just restarted on February 6. GM is planning various efforts to boost demand for the car.
The New York Times (3/3, B6, Bunkley, Subscription Publication) reported in its second section that "production is scheduled to stop March 16 and resume April 23."
The AP (3/3) reported, "Sales have fallen short of expectations, and its reputation was bruised by an investigation into a possible fire risk."
<span style="font-weight: bold">Politico (3/3, Weinger) reported the announcement comes "just days after President Barack Obama announced he would buy a Chevrolet Volt once he left office."</span>
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

So the little electric cars work in town, not everyone lives in town. I spend a lot of time driving all over this state. Basicly from Newcastle, you have two ways to go, South and West (and stay in the state).

South its 82 miles to Lusk, the nearest gas station. West, once you get past Gillette, you have about 68 miles of nothing until you get to Buffalo.

I spent all my adult life living in cold climates, moved to Wyoming when I got out of the Army in '69, and 22 years of that period was in Alaska. I learned batteries suck in cold weather.

If you ever drove much in Wyoming you'd know you don't want small cars, the friggin wind will blow you off the road.

I have no problem if one likes small cars if that's how you drive, I just hate the idea of my tax dollars supplementing driving little cars.

What is it, we pay $7500 for every volt sold. I could drive my Ford Super Duty diesel a long time on $7500 bucks.

Remember the old VW Rabbit, w/the diesel engine that little sucker got 54 MPG.

There is a couple people in town that drive Golf Carts, Those suckers are great for getting around town and cost a whole lot less then the Volt.

I bet all the idiots who push for eviormental friendly vehicles would throw a hissy fit if I rode my horse about town. That sucker is fueled by renewable fuel grown in the bar ditch.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: j27</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
The gasoline powered car cost about $24,310 while the Volt costs $39,995 without the tax credit .

to drive across country 2443.79 miles.
32mpg car = $236.74
volt 32mpg + 20 miles electricity = $234.80
</div></div>
Delta car price = 15680
Delta mi/gal = .0007

So given those numbers and if you bought a Volt specifically for cross country trips. One would have to drive a Volt 2,240,000 miles before they broke even with the car and you can buy a much cheaper car than the price you posted which would drive that number far higher. Now if you only drive it around town than the Volt's mi/gal skyrockets and actually makes sense. Either way, I'd never buy a GM so if I had to get a hybrid I'd buy a Prius.

 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So the little electric cars work in town, not everyone lives in town. I spend a lot of time driving all over this state. Basicly from Newcastle, you have two ways to go, South and West (and stay in the state).

South its 82 miles to Lusk, the nearest gas station. West, once you get past Gillette, you have about 68 miles of nothing until you get to Buffalo.

I spent all my adult life living in cold climates, moved to Wyoming when I got out of the Army in '69, and 22 years of that period was in Alaska. I learned batteries suck in cold weather.

If you ever drove much in Wyoming you'd know you don't want small cars, the friggin wind will blow you off the road.

I have no problem if one likes small cars if that's how you drive, I just hate the idea of my tax dollars supplementing driving little cars.

What is it, we pay $7500 for every volt sold. I could drive my Ford Super Duty diesel a long time on $7500 bucks.

Remember the old VW Rabbit, w/the diesel engine that little sucker got 54 MPG.

There is a couple people in town that drive Golf Carts, Those suckers are great for getting around town and cost a whole lot less then the Volt.

I bet all the idiots who push for eviormental friendly vehicles would throw a hissy fit if I rode my horse about town. That sucker is fueled by renewable fuel grown in the bar ditch. </div></div>

Its the tailpipe emissions they would step in that would get them upset.
whistle.gif
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pdogsbeware</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BALLISTIC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hybrids and 'plug-in electric' vehicles are dumb. The best option for fuel efficiency is a Diesel engine, which can run on many different fuels. Nothing else comes close.</div></div>
Don't most european (small diesel) cars get incredible gas mileage? Too bad americans want huge flashy, "cool" vehicles, not practical things. </div></div>

Absolutely! Before retiring (in Germany at the time) the wife and I rented a Ford Focus C-Max turbo diesel, and drove all over eastern Europe. Average mpg was 52. Even when we got back to Germany, at 110 mph on the autobahn for the last leg of the trip we were still making 32 mpg.

Tried to buy one when I got home but couldn't find it. I called Ford and was told they would never sell them here because of California emissions.

I now have a VW Jetta TDI, and on the freeway I'll get 41-45 mpg if I keep it around 70.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

We have a Leaf. Like most people, we also have other cars, so it's no big deal that it can't do everything.

We bought it to get the carpool sticker to improve my wife's commute time, not to save the planet. But, it saves a significant amount of money.

It most definitely does not cost near the numbers being mentioned to charge.

With "Level 2" 220V charging it takes about 2.5-3hrs to put in ~70-80mi worth of charge. The charger itself is actually onboard the car, and I do believe the Volt charger is inferior(ie slower) to the Leaf's, but that's just GM not spending the money to make it charge faster, not a limitation on tech.

Yes, batteries are made of nasty stuff. But they are recycled.

It's also a pretty kick ass around town car.

I hate the "Zero Emissions" marketing on it, and the first morning after we bought it, tore the big "Zero Emissions" stickers off the sides. But I like the car in the way I like competent applicances.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

Here is a paper I wrot for my thermodynamics class on the subject. The main difference between the Nissan Leaf and the Chevrolet Volt is the face that the the Nisan Leaf is all electric, While the Chevrolet Volt has a small gasoline engine. This gives the Chevrolet volt a range of 610km using gasoline and electric power and only a 65km range just using electronic power determined by the EPA. The Nissan leaf a range of 117km as determined by the EPA. In 2009 consumer reports determined the cost to drive the Nissan Volt 2.19¢ per km and the cost to drive the Chevrolet Volt 2.38¢ per km in electric mode. After reviewing these figures I determined that the Nissan Leaf is not a realistic to purchase If you are going to only have one car due to its limited range. It is only realistic to own as a extra vehicle. The Nissan Leaf saves gasoline in the fact that it runs on all electric power and recharges its batteries using a electric outlet. The Chevrolet Volt saves gasoline by using an electronic motor to power the cars wheels. The gasoline engine is used to power a generator and the energy generated is stored in the cars battery or can be engaged at times to assist the electronic motor.
The purchase price of the two vehicles being compared goes from 36,020$ for the 2012 Nissan Leaf and US$39,995 for the 2012 Chevrolet volt. If you are going to purchase an electric car and drive it 20,000km a year it would cost approximate 438$ in electricity to power the Nissan Leaf. Calculating the cost to drive the Chevrolet Volt is more complicated than the Nissan leaf, but if the car were to be driven 20,000km a year which is 54.8km a day, and only used the care in the all electric mode it would cost 476$ for the electricity the car used.. In 10 years that would mean that the cost to drive the Nissan Leaf would be 4380$ and the Chevrolet Volt would cost 4760$ The difference of the 38$ cost difference per year is almost not enough to matter. The with the average price of unleaded gasoline being 3.70$ per gallon an if a car gets 33 mpg it would cost 0.12 $ to drive the car one mile or .078$ per km. In 10 Years, at today’s gas price it would cost 15,600$ for the gas that you pun in your car.
Another downside to using an all electric car is how environmental conditions effect the distance that the car is able to travel between charges. In colder weather the distance the car can travel decreases greatly from how far it could travel in warmer weather. In test conducted by consumer reports on the Nissan Leaf, in -12 degree Celsius environment the Leaf lost a considerable amount of power after just 13 km.
The downside to the Nisan Leaf and the Chevrolet Volt is the fact that they cost considerably more than a car that is comparable in size and passenger capacity. For example the msrp for the Chevrolet Cruz Eco is 16,800$. This means that while saving a considerable amount of gas, the electric cars become more expensive to operate due to there higher initial cost., which would be 23195$ for the Chevrolet Volt and 19220$ for the Nissan Leaf. Taking into account the fuel savings of 11,110$ at the end of 10 years it would still cost approximately 12,355$ more to drive an electric car. After looking at these numbers and higher initial cost, I would say that I would definitely not buy either the Nissan Leaf or the Chevrolet Volt due to their initial higher cost and their limited range. Unless the cost of this type of vehicle went down, or the cost of gasoline went up a considerable amount I think they types of electric car discussed in this essay would be more of a novelty when viewed from a practical approach.
On the positive side the cost difference between the cost of electricity is considerably less than the cost of gasoline for the car to travel the same distance. There is also a number of Quick charge stations that can charge the car in 30 minuets. A lot of these stations are available free of charge. There are also tax incentives that can reduce the initial purchase price of the car.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are also tax incentives that can reduce the initial purchase price of the car.</div></div>

No, there is no Cost Reduction, it just means you get someone else to pay for your car.

That's the problem with this country, everybody wants someone else to subdize them.

If the product was worth a shit, it wouldnt need subdized.

No different then some lady going before congress saying somebody else should pay for her birth control.

And we wonder why we're 15 Tril in debt.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nick L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a paper I wrot for my thermodynamics class on the subject...</div></div>

I do not see a single thing about thermodynamics in that "paper".

Shouldn't you have been looking at stuff like the Otto, Diesel and Rankine thermodynamic cycles, crunching numbers with efficiencies and trying to figure out which one actually comes out ahead?
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nick L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is a paper I wrot for my thermodynamics class on the subject. </div></div>

When I took thermo, I never had to write any economics papers.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

He also failed to take into consideration battery service/maintenance over the 10 year period he projected fuel savings with.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

I took another look at all electric cars last weekend, and they still don't make sense economically.
Even with the $7500 tax credit, it would still take my wife 12-15 years of driving to break even over her 2011 Elantra @ 40 MPG (2 gallons a day for her commute).

Show me a decent sized electric that sells for $17,000 and I'll consider it.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

My wife's commute is 45-50mi roundtrip per day. Her company, like several locally, has "free" 220V charging. We charge it for weekends, and on days she does running around after work. We have seen minimal change in our power bill, it's been in the noise.

It saves us roughly $250/mo in fuel, after rebates it's a $30k car. $250/mo * 48 mos = $12,000. That makes it cheaper than a loaded Versa. This assumes the Leaf depreciates at a faster rate, and all the way down to the residual price of a Versa.

There is no battery maintanance in that interval. If the battery goes Tango Uniform it's on Nissan. If you run it out of charge, the tow is free.

The other very real time and money saver is in fact maintanance. There is practically none with a Leaf.

You can find reasons to hate on the car, but the financial argument that it's not cheaper, at least when you do include the incentives, are not necessarily correct.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Show me a decent sized electric that sells for $17,000 and I'll consider it. </div></div>

Here you go:

Detroit-Car-Fire.jpg
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tucker301</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Show me a decent sized electric that sells for $17,000 and I'll consider it. </div></div>

Here you go:

Detroit-Car-Fire.jpg
</div></div>

It's hard to tell, is that a Pinto? One of the Chevy pickups with saddle tanks?
wink.gif
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually a photo I saw accompanying and article on Volts immolating themselves in low-speed crashes. </div></div>

Of course...but whether or not Volts are more likely to burn(I remain unconvinced), they certainly aren't the only vehicles made that are...which apparently that author appreciated as that is not a burning Volt providing his car-b-que shot...
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

Out of respect for family no info will be given
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: luvtolean</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually a photo I saw accompanying and article on Volts immolating themselves in low-speed crashes. </div></div>

Of course...but whether or not Volts are more likely to burn(I remain unconvinced), they certainly aren't the only vehicles made that are...which apparently that author appreciated as that is not a burning Volt providing his car-b-que shot... </div></div>

Let it go, it was a joke. Not directed at you.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

OK, so figuring in the $5000 replacement cost of the batteries in six years, teh cost of the Volt moves to $49,000.00. The 'carbon footprint' now moves even higher with the waste of an entire set of battereis(I giove a rats ass about carbon footprints). Add to the cost of the vehicle the tax dollars that were sent to GM for bail out and the car moves to over $50,000. Not a very smart purchase if you ask me. For $50,000 I can get one of these:

2d66ead639.jpg


I could have the excess of some $15000 in pocket to use for any restorative stuff, and run higher compression, lower gears, make cool sounds going down the road, and have ten times more fun doing it!
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: luvtolean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a Leaf. Like most people, we also have other cars, so it's no big deal that it can't do everything.

We bought it to get the carpool sticker to improve my wife's commute time, not to save the planet. But, it saves a significant amount of money.

It most definitely does not cost near the numbers being mentioned to charge.

With "Level 2" 220V charging it takes about 2.5-3hrs to put in ~70-80mi worth of charge. The charger itself is actually onboard the car, and I do believe the Volt charger is inferior(ie slower) to the Leaf's, but that's just GM not spending the money to make it charge faster, not a limitation on tech.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, batteries are made of nasty stuff. But they are recycled.</span>

It's also a pretty kick ass around town car.

I hate the "Zero Emissions" marketing on it, and the first morning after we bought it, tore the big "Zero Emissions" stickers off the sides. But I like the car in the way I like competent applicances.
</div></div>

I don't mean to kick whatever "feel-good" you get out of your car in the gut, but most electric cars are made out of batteries that contain cadmium, which is mined in a process that destroys the land around the site for miles and miles around. Do a search and see what the sites up in Canada look like. The damage that isn't being done here is at a cost of incredible damages that are being done elsewhere. NIMBY, huh?
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yasherka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually a photo I saw accompanying and article on Volts immolating themselves in low-speed crashes. </div></div>

Here's another article. Same picture, but a completely different story.
Chevy Volt Fire
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: luvtolean</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We have a Leaf. Like most people, we also have other cars, so it's no big deal that it can't do everything.

We bought it to get the carpool sticker to improve my wife's commute time, not to save the planet. But, it saves a significant amount of money.

It most definitely does not cost near the numbers being mentioned to charge.

With "Level 2" 220V charging it takes about 2.5-3hrs to put in ~70-80mi worth of charge. The charger itself is actually onboard the car, and I do believe the Volt charger is inferior(ie slower) to the Leaf's, but that's just GM not spending the money to make it charge faster, not a limitation on tech.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Yes, batteries are made of nasty stuff. But they are recycled.</span>

It's also a pretty kick ass around town car.

I hate the "Zero Emissions" marketing on it, and the first morning after we bought it, tore the big "Zero Emissions" stickers off the sides. But I like the car in the way I like competent applicances.
</div></div>

I don't mean to kick whatever "feel-good" you get out of your car in the gut, but most electric cars are made out of batteries that contain cadmium, which is mined in a process that destroys the land around the site for miles and miles around. Do a search and see what the sites up in Canada look like. The damage that isn't being done here is at a cost of incredible damages that are being done elsewhere. NIMBY, huh? </div></div>

Thats whats Chinas for. Like Honeybadger, China don't give a shit.
crazy.gif
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Veer_G</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't mean to kick whatever "feel-good" you get out of your car in the gut, but most electric cars are made out of batteries that contain cadmium, which is mined in a process that destroys the land around the site for miles and miles around. Do a search and see what the sites up in Canada look like. The damage that isn't being done here is at a cost of incredible damages that are being done elsewhere. NIMBY, huh? </div></div>

As I said, the car wasn't bought trying to assuage some yuppie hyper-consuming guilt. We wanted a carpool lane sticker, CA lets solo occupied EVs in the what we call "carpool" many other states call it the HOV lane. Period. If the state would've sold us the sticker, we'd have written a check to them for the price delta from the wife's Subaru STi we sold to get the Leaf (about $10k), and slapped the carpool sticker next to the quad exhaust tips very happily.

The fact that the Leaf is cheaper, practically no maintanance, so quiet/smooth and the torque is great for zipping around town were all upside benefits.

I'm not trying to promote the idea, I don't expect you guys to run out and buy them. But there is a bunch of bullshit spewed about EVs from both sides, and the nonsense spews equally from the lovers and the haters. To me it's just a good car appliance that came with a benefit we were willing to pay for, but is going to turn out to have no cost due to the savings we are realizing. In 3 or 4 years it'll be sold and who knows what will replace it.

What you are saying is right too, mining is ugly. Even worse, rare earths are key to these products, and they are essentially no longer mined in the United States and have strategic impact like oil supply. They tend to come from countries that are unfriendly as many involved in worldwide oil supply. It is definitely one of the problems with the strategy. The good news is, they recycle these batteries, and most of these metals are reused.

Now that we own one, as a total race fuel loving petrolhead BTW, I can tell you EVs are here to stay this time. If you live in an urban area, as a go to the bank or grocery store or to the office car, they really do some things better.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

It's called false economy. Want to think about the chemical pollution from all the battery manufacturing? No, that's right, CO2 is way more detrimental than nitrates, sulfates, etc. dumped into rivers and streams. /sarcasm

Then, as mentioned above, think about the energy source for charging these batteries. That energy comes primarily from fossil fuels. And, as we ALL know *cough, hint, cough*, transforming energy from one form to another (at least with current tech) involves significant efficiency losses. So, instead of burning fuel for motive force, we'll burn fuel to change it into electricity to then use for motive force. That's an extra step on a process that reduces overall efficiency, meaning I burn more fuel to get the same motive force.

Now if we converted our entire energy grid to nuclear, that'd be a different story. Cheap (on a per MW basis) if you are willing to make the initial investment, and there's no CO2 or chemical waste. Just bury the crap in the ground or dump it in the ocean at the end. Oh and before you start talking about radioactive jellyfish, just remember, there are tons of spent nuclear fuel at the bottom of the ocean courtesy of mother Russia - doesn't seem to make a dang bit of difference...

Until someone comes up with a serious solution, the continued lobbying for these "environmental" products that are just the opposite will continue to draw my ire, and should I ever meet one of these clowns face to face, I will be certain to educate them.

Just one more group of idiots that want to commit suicide and bring the rest of the US with them...

p.s. these enviro-cars are only cheaper to the person buying them than a comparable vehicle because the rest of the taxpayers foot subsidies for them. It's like unmetered utilities in an apartment that shares the water bill. I can leave my water on all day long and for some reason my bill doesn't seem to change. Water must be free...
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

Radioisotopes come out of the ground, and the centrifuge/enrichment process isn't exactly light on energy use either. Breeders can be used to help some. I think it should be intuitive we don't want to encourage dumping radioactive waste in the ocean, especially if the world scales nuke power.

There is no perfect solution.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TNT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
p.s. these enviro-cars are only cheaper to the person buying them than a comparable vehicle because the rest of the taxpayers foot subsidies for them. It's like unmetered utilities in an apartment that shares the water bill. I can leave my water on all day long and for some reason my bill doesn't seem to change. Water must be free... </div></div>

Apparently if you take into account the <span style="color: #FF0000">THREE BILLION </span>dollars spent on R&D (should have just bought Toyota's 2nd gen tech) The Volt costs <span style="color: #FF0000">$250,000/unit</span> to produce but if you "forget" the R&D it drops down to $40,000/unit. So with R&D each Volt produced is sold at a major loss but without R&D and selling for an average of $41,000/unit they see a $1,000/unit profit. Fuzzy math at work.

Source:

"Each Chevy Volt sold thus far may have as much as $250,000 in state and federal dollars in incentives behind it – a total of $3 billion altogether, according to an analysis by James Hohman, assistant director of fiscal policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy."

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

luvtolean,
I appreciate your comments and insight on the Leaf.
It's good to hear from an actual owner of one.

I'll continue to look into the possibility of adding one to our stable. Who knows? Maybe I'll park the Tacoma and use an EV for my everyday.
I only average a half a tank a week, but I also only get about 17 MPG.
 
Re: We should buy a Chevy Volt

I'm considering trading the Tundra for a more fuel efficient truck. The new Tundra gets a little better mileage and, with the cost of fuel, dealers are willing to deal. Same way I got a great deal on the one I drive now.

Oh, it has a battery, too.
 
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