Which Optics 4 Your HD Guns

[chevy_man]

EDC, on me all day in an OWB under a large angler's shirt. Always within reach.
S&W M&P M2.0 in 9 mm with a 17 rd double stack mag, 2 extra mags loaded. During the mostly peaceful protests, I had 100 more rounds in boxes in my tactical ruck, AKA, man purse.

View attachment 8282924

My secondary carry in a plain black bag with pouches for 5 loaded 30 round mags and 1 30 rd mag in the rifle, one in the pipe, safety on, the Windham Weaponry Dissipator M4 A3, except that I changed the foregrip to a Magpul that my boss gave to me.

View attachment 8282925

Also in the home, Mossberg 590A1 12 ga. (with bayonette.) I have upland bird and some #4 shot but for home defense, I still prefer accuracy. So, slugs that simply WILL NOT STOP bleeding. Aim for the crotch and get a little femoral artery action going. Send flowers to the family.

Only difference is that I put a Magpul stock on mine.

View attachment 8282935

All iron sights. The M4 has a combat zero from the factory. The shottie will obliterate anything to 25 yards. The 9 is good for CQC, 7 yards or less. Actually, at my LTC test, this 9 mm was good to 15 yards..

Dude, magazines are cheap. 100 rounds of boxed ammo is worthless if you've gone through 3 mags and still need it. Of course, if you're at the end of 3 mags you were having a very bad day already.


Slugs are good for far longer than 25 yards. Federal flight control buckshot was still shooting a fist sized pattern for me at 30 yards. People deer hunt with slugs at 100+ yards.

 

[308pirate]

The 9 is good for CQC, 7 yards or less. Actually, at my LTC test, this 9 mm was good to 15 yards..

My dude, one should be able to effectively employ a modern service handgun to 25 yards with ease.

 

[chevy_man]

OK boomer

Na, I'm not on any medication for my blood pressure or cholesterol yet. Can't be a boomer.

I just leave the shotguns what they were meant to be, quick to swing and point shoot.

 

[fanninland]

Eotech and an X300 on the APC9. Would rather be absolutely, positively sure of what I’m aiming at before I let anything fly at night. Have heard too many tragic stories of kids who snuck out coming home at night, etc.

Curious if the X300 is mounted on bottom rail of your APC9 - or top or side? Was looking at mine & pondering options when you posted.

 

[308pirate]

I just leave the shotguns what they were meant to be, quick to swing and point shoot.

Zero magnification optics let you do that more precisely than you can with your eyes only without any loss of speed. Actually faster because there's zero need to focus on a bead/sight/whatever.

Problem lies in the fact that most people who think they know how to use zero magnification optics actually don't.

Hint: the dot is not something for your eyes to focus on.

 

[Charger442]

Most people who say this don't really know how to use a zero magnification optic to best advantage.

Don't be too proud to admit that maybe you need some better training/education.

I'm not saying this to be a dick. Four years ago I was where you are. Then I learned.

Also riddle me this, if an optic makes you more effective in competition where time and accuracy matter why would it not benefit you in a fight where time and accuracy matters?

Why do I need another electrical component that could fail when I need it most?

No one should be lighting off rounds in a house with collateral damage near by, ie you're implying I'm dodging other people in my house. Maybe there's people in other rooms but that's on me to keep straight in the moment. Always know your target and what's behind, right?

Again, at inside a house range, why do I need a red dot? I put a few thousand rounds a year through clay bird games, blue quail hunting , etc. and at night, in my house, low light condition, I should be focused on my target and my practiced natural point of aim with a shotgun. #4 buck up to #4 lead shot will do devastating damage at what, 8-10 yards?

I don't see the need to complicate such a simple and fool proof weapon. ( Depending on your shotgun loader type of course)

 

[Charger442]

Zero magnification optics let you do that more precisely than you can with your eyes only without any loss of speed. Actually faster because there's zero need to focus on a bead/sight/whatever.

Problem lies in the fact that most people who think they know how to use zero magnification optics actually don't.

Hint: the dot is not something for your eyes to focus on.

Hint: Your eyes don't focus on a bead either, in the same way you just described they don't focus on the red dot.

 

[chevy_man]

Zero magnification optics let you do that more precisely than you can with your eyes only without any loss of speed. Actually faster because there's zero need to focus on a bead/sight/whatever.

Problem lies in the fact that most people who think they know how to use zero magnification optics actually don't.

Hint: the dot is not something for your eyes to focus on.

But you don't focus on the bead, it's just there. Unlike a sight there is no obstruction around it.

10's of thousands of rounds on the clays course and bird hunting, and I don't focus on the bead and get hits. I couldn't actually tell you what color they are on any of my guns.

 

[Convex]

LMAO

But then again I'm not the type who's so confused he isn't even talking about the guy he thinks he's talking about.


U may not think much of optics on shotguns but as Pirate 308 and themightytimmah have pointed out it's in an effort do everything possible to not miss/hurt/kill an innocent bystander instead of who's trying to hurt U.

Sure, I can line up both ends of a shotgun to aim it in the right direction, but not as fast as bringing the shotgun w/the "circle of death" lined up on center mass in one motion.

Regardless of anyone's opinion each one of us is responsible for doing our best to protect our families and doing our best not to hit innocent bystanders, so we all have to go w/what we deep feel gives us the best chance to achieve that, and whatever opinion U have, neither U or anybody else will show up to do my time if I'm locked up, and/or lose my house because I shot somebody else by accident.

I took the time to address this because it can mean a person's life, as to the personal shit about naming my guns and how I type, say what U want.

 

[Convex]

I just leave the shotguns what they were meant to be, quick to swing and point shoot.

No. U left out doing whatever it takes to not miss when it comes to HD.

How a shotgun is meant to be used is your opinion, there's no rule anywhere that says U can't put an optic on a shotgun.

 

[cas6969]

Op... what?

 

[Convex]

Nice double barrel. Don't any get shit on 'em now.

 

[308pirate]

10's of thousands of rounds on the clays course and bird hunting, and I don't focus on the bead and get hits. I couldn't actually tell you what color they are on any of my guns.

The criteria for acceptable accuracy is 100% not comparable between breaking clays/killing little birds and a self defense shooting.

 

[chevy_man]

The criteria for acceptable accuracy is 100% not comparable between breaking clays/killing little birds and a self defense shooting.

You're right, it's much harder to hit a man sized target down my hall than a 4" disk moving at 40 yards.

 

[chevy_man]

No. U left out doing whatever it takes to not miss when it comes to HD.

How a shotgun is meant to be used is your opinion, there's no rule anywhere that says U can't put an optic on a shotgun.

Are you a 12 year old? It's immensely difficult to take anything you're saying seriously when you can't even use real words. Are you still using a t9 keypad on your flip phone?


None of my shotguns came drilled and tapped for a pic rail. Someone made it a rule at some point, I'm just following their lead.

I'm getting the impression that most of the "I need an optic" crowd are actually in need of fixing their eyesight.

 

[Convex]

No, I'm 8 so fuck U.

You don't take anybody serious who doesn't do things your way, like the inference that your shooting clays is somehow going to make U better able to defend your home, I've never heard of something so fucking ridiculous.

A bigger target like a man going down your hallway/the smart alec troll that U threw at 308Pirate is going to very difficult to put down if he's shooting back at you.

When have one of your fucking ducks ever shot back at U?

You say "None of my shotguns came drilled and tapped for a pic rail. Someone made it a rule at some point, I'm just following their lead." U don't know who that someone is and UR following their lead, that's pathetic.

Learn how to drill and tap, it's not difficult or pay somebody to do, it's not that expensive.



There is no fucking rule except to survive, U don't even know who made it a rule, and you're following their lead, that is childish.

If somebody does it your way and it doesn't work, U won't be there to do their dying for them, or do their time if they get locked up, so after giving your opinion let them make up their own minds.


The last time we butted heads on a previous thread U were telling me what techniques manufacturers use, and then U show up here talking about your shotgun wasn't drilled and tapped, you're full of shit.

 

[Makinchips208]

Well we sort of made it through one page while on track. Lol

While many disagree and have various opinions, I’m thrilled we all can keep what we want and keep it how we want!

Run what you brung!
End of the day we all wanna protect what we care about.

 

[themightytimmah]

Curious if the X300 is mounted on bottom rail of your APC9 - or top or side? Was looking at mine & pondering options when you posted.

Right side (I’m a lefty)

 

[PappyM3]

But you don't focus on the bead, it's just there. Unlike a sight there is no obstruction around it.

10's of thousands of rounds on the clays course and bird hunting, and I don't focus on the bead and get hits. I couldn't actually tell you what color they are on any of my guns.

You're right, it's much harder to hit a man sized target down my hall than a 4" disk moving at 40 yards.

To be fair, the dispersion of #7 or #8 shot at 40 yards is a whole lot different than buckshot at room distance. The birdshot at 40 yards, you you have what, a 20-30” spread depending on choke? For a 4” disk? Even for #4 buck, at room distance you’re getting maybe 3” dispersion of pellets; less with self defense 00 buck with flight control. Dispersion that is 5-8x the size of the target for clays, vs dispersion that is 1/3-1x the size of the threat for home defense.

You’ll probably be okay sticking with beads for home defense distances, but it is far from simple and much more precision is needed than when shooting clays, if you want to hit a vital zone. They are not synonymous.

 

[Ronws]

I don't have a 40 yard shot in my house. Not even a 25 yard shot. So, my 9 is just fine.

Handgun at 25 yards? Sure, theorectumly.

I chose 7 to maybe 15 yards because that is what I learned from the instructor who taught my LTC class. He mentioned that after 15 yards, maybe you should just get away. Of course, hypothetically, you could be in situations that require a longer shot.

Granted, the class was to fill a legal requirement in order to have a license to carry a handgun.

And possibly a gangster has shot someone at 25 yards but that would be an accident. Like Lou Reed singing on pitch.

 

[Charger442]

To be fair, the dispersion of #7 or #8 shot at 40 yards is a whole lot different than buckshot at room distance. The birdshot at 40 yards, you you have what, a 20-30” spread depending on choke? For a 4” disk? Even for #4 buck, at room distance you’re getting maybe 3” dispersion of pellets; less with self defense 00 buck with flight control. Dispersion that is 5-8x the size of the target for clays, vs dispersion that is 1/3-1x the size of the threat for home defense.

You’ll probably be okay sticking with beads for home defense distances, but it is far from simple and much more precision is needed than when shooting clays, if you want to hit a vital zone. They are not synonymous.

What's the dispersion of #7 at room distance, 12 feet?

Also what's the target size for me to put half the 27 pellets of 4 buck at 12 feet?

Is my red dot on a single shot? Or do I have atleast 5 shots?

So you're saying at 12 feet I can't hit a target without a red dot sight or I have a very low chance without one?

Help me understand...

 

[PappyM3]

What's the dispersion of #7 at room distance, 12 feet?

Also what's the target size for me to put half the 27 pellets of 4 buck at 12 feet?

Is my red dot on a single shot? Or do I have atleast 5 shots?

So you're saying at 12 feet I can't hit a target without a red dot sight or I have a very low chance without one?

Help me understand...

I didn’t say you can’t hit a target without a red dot. I specifically said he’d probably be fine using beads for home defense. You’re conflating me with others.

I said shooting a shotgun for defensive purposes is not the same as shooting clays. Being good at shooting clays is not synonymous with placing accurate shots into vitals in a gun fight.

At 12 feet, the dispersion even with #4 buck is going to be extremely tight, so “half the pellets” may only be 1”. The target is the vital zone of your threat to put him down fast. Again, iron sights or shot gun beads can get the job done, but please don’t pretend it is an imprecise task or that it is in any way easy under the stress of a gun fight.

As for using #7 for home defense, please don’t. #4 buck is likely the smallest you should go while still reliably meeting penetration needs.

Regarding single shot vs 5, hopefully you hit on the first shot. Because if the intruder has a gun, you’ve just opened yourself up to a lot of risk if you do miss, especially with a pump gun that can be short stroked under stress. I get that people prefer shotguns and often pump shotguns for home defense. I only ask that people be honest with themselves about pros and cons when making their decisions.

 

[Ronws]

I like my 590A1 SPX. It will hold 1 in the chamber and 8 in the tube, giving 9 total shots.

My M&P always has one in the chamber. I use the booger picker safety. I use booger picker safety on everything, in addition mechanical safeties.

I once had an ND and that learnt me real good. I took a safety class for that and fit the profile. Male, 50s, been shooting for most of my life (since the age of 10.)

Anyway, the instructor said, there are two types of shooters. Those have had an ND and those who will have an ND. Fortunately, in my case, once has been enough. Keep the damned booger picker off the trigger.

I don't think one particular sight is better than another. It's just what makes you comfortable. If a red dot works, great. Or some LPVO, sure.

I still have iron sights on the M4 A3 because that is more comfortable to my eye than an LPVO I once tried on it.

 

[Naaman]

Personally, I’m not a big fan of dot&magnifier combos. So I may be biased. I also avoided the Elcan for a long time, going from my ACOG back in the early 2010s to various LPVOs. But, on SBRs, I’ve found the Elcan Spectre to be a great option.

Pros compared to dot&magnifier:
- Reticle that is usable at both 1x and 4x without a battery
- Ranging features
- Usable BDC
- Not just an illuminated dot, but you can gently illuminate the whole BDC reticle to effectively get shots out to distance in low light/dark areas
- Not bulky like a magnifier rotated off to the side
- End of world durability/usability

Cons:
- Not amazing eye relief (though I’ve never had any difficulty getting behind it and being able to use the reticle, even with scope shadow)
- Illumination battery life probably not as good as a true red dot
- Can’t detach a magnifier to look at something without aiming a rifle (never really worried about this).
- Would work well with an IR clip-on, but not good for helmet mounted NODs like a red dot

Honestly, I wasn’t very confident I would like the Elcan, but decided to try it, moving from an NX8. I like it at 1x far more than I expected and at 4x, with its wide field of view, it’s a lot like the ACOG I was so used to. It is really effective and effortless close in on 1x, but lets me stretch the carbine’s legs if I need or want to. Best of both worlds.

And to boot, with Black Hills 77gr TMK out of my 11.5”, these are the BDC drops in yards:
View attachment 8282910

Wow. That's rather convenient. What zero are you using?

 

[PappyM3]

Wow. That's rather convenient. What zero are you using?

100 yards, hitting 0.5 MOA high at that distance.

 

[Convex]

I've got "Reptile" loaded up w/Federal flite control 1 buck. after using 00 buck for a number years because of how tight it stays 4 close in HD.

A pic comparison is definitive 4 what this round does compared to regular buckshot so to see w/your own eyes go here.


The 1 buck flite control load stays so tight for all intents and purposes you've got a pattern not much larger than a slug 4 close in. The pattern starts to spread out after about roughly 35 yds. or so, but that's 105 ft. and at that distance we're not talking about inside the house unless you're a billionaire.

The Box O' Truth #56 - Federal Flight Control #1...

For years, those of us that are interested have known that 00 buckshot was the "best available" load for most shooters for defensive purposes. Federal's 00 buckshot load in their great FCW (Flight Control Wad) was the "best of the best", as the FCW would hold the buckshot in the tightest...

www.theboxotruth.com

Here's a comparison of various shotshell loads thru ballistic gel. I have/have used most of these loads B4 settling on what I use now in my pumps. Watch later in the video the utter devastation of 000 buck which will turn your insides into oatmeal, but you had better know where UR loved ones are if U use this inside your house.

These bigger loads would be very effective "on the money" into center mass, big trouble w/ricochets if you miss and will definitely go thru walls.

bass fletcher ballistic buckshot videos - Search Videos

www.bing.com

I own the property behind my house which is out to about 85 yards/100 yards if you count across the street, where I've got slugs loaded into my Vepr 12 semi-auto shotguns which are "cruiser ready" in my gun chest to deal w/that kind of distance.


When U start talking out to this distance/out in the country of course it's then rifle time.



Old guys w/old eyeballs have slung slugs out to way past 200 yrds./600 feet using iron sights, and hit consistently on the money, but when it comes to life and death for you/your family and the innocent bystander my preference w/the Veprs semi-autos loaded up slugs shooting up to a distance of 75-100yrds behind my house would be to use my Eotechs or my Aimpoints.

It would have to be the most serious of circumstances w/a very serious threat/multiple threat/a big time home invasion, and there are other alternatives to that serious a threat including the alternative of my "safe room" and piling my family into my car and getting out of Dodge if there's enough time.

 

[PappyM3]

I got "Reptile" loaded up w/Federal flite control 1 buck. after using 00 buck for a number years because of how tight it stays 4 close in HD.

…

Did they ever start making that again? Last I heard, Federal stopped making #1 buck flight control like 10 years ago. It’s a shame.

 

[Naaman]

Did they ever start making that again? Last I heard, Federal stopped making #1 buck flight control like 10 years ago. It’s a shame.

Agreed. Last time I looked for it, could only find 00.

And gatdammit... Now I have to scrounge up $2300 for a fuggin' Elcan...

 

[PappyM3]

Agreed. Last time I looked for it, could only find 00.

And gatdammit... Now I have to scrounge up $2300 for a fuggin' Elcan...

I don’t know if I’d spend the full price for them. You can get them for $1920 with frequent 10% off codes Armament Tech offers. Sub-$2k or I wouldn’t bite.

But even then, I’d just be patient on places like Reddit’s gun accessories for sale. You can somewhat regularly see them come up virtually new for $1500.

 

[Charger442]

Agreed. Last time I looked for it, could only find 00.

And gatdammit... Now I have to scrounge up $2300 for a fuggin' Elcan...

ive been running an Elcan on my carry pistol. i need it so i can shoot up close, dont judge me.

 

[PappyM3]

ive been running an Elcan on my carry pistol. i need it so i can shoot up close, dont judge me.

Yeah, everybody who clears houses for a living only use optics because they need help shooting up close.

 

[Convex]

Did they ever start making that again? Last I heard, Federal stopped making #1 buck flight control like 10 years ago. It’s a shame.

I stocked up on this quite awhile back, but someone has got to have some, Target Sports or some such bulk ammo outfits.

I'd very surprised if it's all been bought up, If U do find some, buy a lot.

 

[cas6969]

I put an RMR on one of my Benelli's about a year and a half ago, basically because I'd never had a dot sight on a shotgun.
Mostly what I've learned in that time is I really don't care for it. Very little up side for me, the few that there are, are very specific uses and the M4 would be a lousy choice for the job, so they kind of cancel each other out. But the M4 isn't really a home defense gun, at the moment I'm not even sure where it is. lol

 

[Convex]

I actually have a case of this that I've never got around to testing since I'd settled on the Fed 1 buck figuring when I bought 'em I'd see how close they were to the Federal ammo 4 in the house distances.

These seem to be drying up too. I did find this. They're asking 4 a lot of money.

Remington Express Ammo 12 Ga 2-3/4 #1 Buckshot 16 Pellets Case of 250

One of the greatest values in shotgun deer loads. A combination of heavy cushioning behind the shot column and a granulated polymer buffer helps...

www.midwayusa.com

I didn't pay anywhere near this.

I think Federal flite control 00 buck is still carried by some bulk ammo outfits, but that's the rub, cuz w/the Fed 1 buck you had 15 pellets instead of 8 or 9 pellets from 00 buck creating a lot of wound channels.

Of course if U go w/flite control 00 buck, the last guy to complain is gonna be the guy U shot.

Good luck in finding something in the ballpark of the flite control ammo.

 

[PappyM3]

I put an RMR on one of my Benelli's about a year and a half ago, basically because I'd never had a dot sight on a shotgun.
Mostly what I've learned in that time is I really don't care for it. ….

I like the red dot on my shotgun, but it’s only use cases are turkey and deer.

 

[Birddog6424]

Both home defense weapons have iron sights. (a 1911 with a Surefire light and an 11+1 Versa Max Tactical).

I cant imagine a scenario anywhere inside my home or property where I would actually need anything else.

I've shot a lot of 3 Gun. I can mow down an 8" plate rack at 21'. A person in my home is significantly bigger and most likely going to be closer. There won't be a whole lot of "aiming" going on.

 

[Naaman]

I don’t know if I’d spend the full price for them. You can get them for $1920 with frequent 10% off codes Armament Tech offers. Sub-$2k or I wouldn’t bite.

But even then, I’d just be patient on places like Reddit’s gun accessories for sale. You can somewhat regularly see them come up virtually new for $1500.

My main concern is the eye relief (which is why I have tended toward dot with QD magnifier). With my eye dominance issues, I have a hard time getting behind a scope (or any type of sights where alignment is critical)... it's like I don't have a dominant eye or something... I don't know... or maybe I just don't "get it" when it comes to acquiring the sights using the techniques I've tried/been taught.

 

[Charger442]

Yeah, everybody who clears houses for a living only use optics because they need help shooting up close.

I think that's really the problem. Everyone who says " home defense shotgun with optic" thinks they are going to be part of an elite operator team clearing a house room by room looking for bin laden with hostages like in some movie.

Reality is something much less " tactical" than that

 

[PappyM3]

My main concern is the eye relief (which is why I have tended toward dot with QD magnifier). With my eye dominance issues, I have a hard time getting behind a scope (or any type of sights where alignment is critical)... it's like I don't have a dominant eye or something... I don't know... or maybe I just don't "get it" when it comes to acquiring the sights using the techniques I've tried/been taught.

In that case, it still may not work well. Unfortunately.

 

[PappyM3]

I think that's really the problem. Everyone who says " home defense shotgun with optic" thinks they are going to be part of an elite operator team clearing a house room by room looking for bin laden with hostages like in some movie.

Reality is something much less " tactical" than that

You don’t have to pretend to be anybody to take lessons learned from people with more experience than you. Same goes with the competition space. You can take lessons from them, the same way the military takes lessons from them too.

Quickly hitting the vitals under stress and potentially in the dark is a similar problem, whether you’re mil/LEO or a normal person protecting their family.

I’m not an arborist, but I take best practices from them when using a chainsaw. I’m not a chef, but I use their tips and lessons to improve cooking at home. I carry tourniquets, pressure dressings and quick clot in my range bag. It’s not because I think I’m a line medic, but because they are tools proven by professionals to be more effective than a cravat, some gauze, and a stick. It’s frankly silly to suggest that people are pretending to be “elite operators” when they take lessons learned from professionals.

By the way, A LOT of the room clearing done in the past couple decades has been done with conventional troops or local/regional SWAT. You don’t need to be an “elite operator doing hostage rescue” to do the job.

 

[Charger442]

You don’t have to pretend to be anybody to take lessons learned from people with more experience than you. Same goes with the competition space. You can take lessons from them, the same way the military takes lessons from them too.

Quickly hitting the vitals under stress and potentially in the dark is a similar problem, whether you’re mil/LEO or a normal person protecting their family.

I’m not an arborist, but I take best practices from them when using a chainsaw. I’m not a chef, but I use their tips and lessons to improve cooking at home. It’s frankly silly to suggest that people are pretending to be “elite operators” when they take lessons learned from professionals.

By the way, A LOT of the room clearing done in the past couple decades has been done with conventional troops or local/regional SWAT. You don’t need to be an “elite operator doing hostage rescue” to do the job.

So you can perform as good as your "regional SWAT"? Are they using shotguns to clear rooms? Or are they using subguns and carbines? Just curious

 

[PappyM3]

So you can perform as good as your "regional SWAT"? Are they using shotguns to clear rooms? Or are they using subguns and carbines? Just curious

Perform what as good? What a ridiculous question. Care to add any actual discussion to my points? Or just snarky hipster-level comments?

But to answer your other facetious questions, professionals who engage threats with firearms at close range have almost exclusively gone away from shotguns outside of ballistic breaching, they need to carry them for less than lethal rounds, or if their department leadership is scared of the image of carbines.

 

[Convex]

Quickly hitting the vitals under stress and potentially in the dark is a similar problem, whether you’re mil/LEO or a normal person protecting their family.

I’m not an arborist, but I take best practices from them when using a chainsaw. I’m not a chef, but I use their tips and lessons to improve cooking at home. I carry tourniquets, pressure dressings and quick clot in my range bag. It’s not because I think I’m a line medic, but because they are tools proven by professionals to be more effective than a cravat, some gauze, and a stick. It’s frankly silly to suggest that people are pretending to be “elite operators” when they take lessons learned from professionals.

Yes

 

[Charger442]

But to answer your other facetious questions, professionals who engage threats with firearms at close range have almost exclusively gone away from shotguns outside of ballistic breaching, they need to carry them for less than lethal rounds, or if their department leadership is scared of the image of carbines.

interesting. you are saying that these professionals who you say are using red dots, and that is a lesson you are learning from them, dont actually use shotguns to "clear rooms"? so they likely DON'T have red dots on their shotguns?

you talked yourself right into proving my point. i appreciate it.

 

[cas6969]

I like the red dot on my shotgun, but it’s only use cases are turkey and deer.

A nighttime called in critter gitter would be my only real use, but the M4 patters are unimpressive at even 20 yards no matter what choke or load combo. Where as others I have will hold a lethal 00 pattern past 50 yards, so they’d get the nod. But since I never seem to get to do it anyway it’s all hypothetical.

 

[PappyM3]

interesting. you are saying that these professionals who you say are using red dots, and that is a lesson you are learning from them, dont actually use shotguns to "clear rooms"? so they likely DON'T have red dots on their shotguns?

you talked yourself right into proving my point. i appreciate it.

I never advocated for red dots on shotguns for home defense, or even shotguns themselves. I just said home defense wasn’t the same as shooting clays. That said, I’ll advocate for them now. If one chooses to use a shotgun for home defense, red dots aren’t required but they do have benefits and are worth looking into.

To solve the logic puzzle you’re trying to piece together, shotguns fell out of favor BEFORE optics became commonplace. When optics were becoming durable enough and with long enough battery life, shotguns were already relegated to ballistic breaching. So no, you won’t often see optics on shotguns in such professions. But the reason is not the one you’re suggesting.

 

[newt67]

I have a Vortex Sparc II on my AR 9 Pistol ...That's my primary HD combine with my Glock 19

 

[Ronws]

tourniquets, pressure dressings and quick clot in my range bag. It’s not because I think I’m a line medic, but because they are tools proven by professionals to be more effective than a cravat, some gauze, and a stick. It’s frankly silly to suggest that people are pretending to be “elite operators” when they take lessons learned from professionals.

10 extra points for using cravat in a sentence.

 

[Convex]

It ain't 1 buck but it's still flite control and will knock U back on your ass.

I'd stock up on this Bcuz there's always plenty of ammo til there isn't.

250 Rounds of Bulk 12ga Ammo by Federal Flite Control - 00 Buck 8 Pellets

Bulk 12ga Ammo by Federal Flite Control For Sale at BulkAmmo.com - 250 Rounds of 00 Buck with 8 Pellets available online.

www.bulkammo.com

12 Gauge Ammo For Sale - 2-3/4" 00 Buck FliteControl Wad Ammunition by Federal LE

12 Gauge Ammo in Stock - 00 Buck Ammunition by Federal Law Enforcement with FliteControl Wad For Sale With Fast Shipping at Lucky Gunner

www.luckygunner.com

Hornaday lists a #4 and a 00 round w/the "Versatite" wad which is supposed to be comparable to the Federal flite contol.


I mention these since the Hornaday 4 buck @ 1350 fps and the 00 @ 1600 fps should reliably run in your semi-autos

12 GA Varmint Express® #4 Buckshot - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Specially loaded to ensure proper functioning in semi-auto and pump shotguns, Hornady® #4 Buckshot provides consistent performance due to our Versatite® wad technology that delivers tight patterns without modification to your gun.

www.hornady.com

12 GA 00 Buckshot Critical Defense® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Reliable Functioning Specially loaded to ensure proper functioning in semi-auto and pump shotguns. 8-Pellets 2 3/4 1600 fps Consistent Performance Our Versatite™ wad technology delivers tight patterns every single time without modification t...

www.hornady.com

 

[Convex]

Had some time on my hands today so I cleaned up one of my "old school" rods that keep my semi-autos company in the gun chest.


Talos 357 Distinguished Combat Magnum (7 rds.)


125 gr. + P's around the house, hard cast 180 gr. 1500 fps out in the country.