If you're looking at 22kv generators, why not look at off grid solar? Set up with enough batteries, and you can go 2-3 days without sunshine, much less power from your power company. You also get a 26% tax credit from Uncle Sam in 2020.
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I think that'd be an excellent compliment to a standby generator, but at least here in the upper Midwest, I don't think it's a viable standalone option for wintertime outages. Those in areas with more daylight and/or shorter outages might feel differently, and obviously solar brings day-to-day advantages that generators don't.
Eventually, lithium-ion batteries get cheap enough that it'll be possible to stuff a figurative (and maybe literal) ton of them into an enclosure, and keep them topped off with a combination of a small genset and solar array. Those on NG may also eventually be able to use a fuel cell for this purpose, but I don't feel good about that becoming an affordable alternative before the end of the decade.
I'm in the process of getting quotes for a solar off grid system with a utility tie in. This way I can accomplish 3 things.
1. Off grid solar array with enough panels to run my house during the day.
2. Batteries with enough stand by power to run my house for 3-4 days without much solar charging.
3. Local utility tie in for unforeseen local issues as well as the ability to also use utility power to charge the batteries.
One other advantage is to be able to start with a minimal battery bank and in time build up that system to be able to run the house for 5-7 days.
Also realizing that a smaller stand by generator can be used if needed to charge the system and possibly be used for outbuildings other than the main house.
OK.... talked to our generator maintenance guy. He said that TODAY, the best generator is Kohler. He also said they're not cheap. He also repeated his disdain for Generac.
My sister worked for Kohler , generator division. According to the maintenance people, they were rock solid.
My observations, and also from talking to my customers..... rock solid in a backup/standby use situation? Yes.
Which is exactly what OP of this thread is looking for. Less than 90 hours a year and you should be good to go for quite a long time.
For those people reading this thread who might need a genset for more than standby.....do not buy one for prime power and expect it to give you thousands of hours of trouble free use. For that you will need a genset for industrial or mobile use.
All generators should be ran for at least 30 minutes once a month just to keep things in working order. Regular maintenance is also very important to keeping them running when they're needed. This would include a load test each month.
Kohler gens are great. I have a 30kw diesel. I have not read through all of the responses but here's my 2 cents and suggestions. You need to think about temperature where you live. If it gets well below freezing for extended periods of time where you live you may want to steer away from a diesel. Fuel geling in cold temps can be a problem. You can also find used generator sets. If temps are not an issue I would look at a diesel. Gas/propane/natural gas motors are high RPM motors. They will be loud and the motors don't last as long. Propane and natural gas have to be bought and transported by someone other than yourself. In day to day normal operations having someone deliver your fuel is nice but in a disaster delivery may be delayed or impossible. Diesel can be purchased at your corner store and you can transport it yourself. You might also consider mounting it on a trailer. That way you can take the generator to the fuel instead of the fuel to the generator. Look into getting an Appleton plug wired into your electrical system. It basically is a heavy duty plug that let's you connect a giant extension cord from your generator to your house. I got my generator from a cell phone tower that was being decommissioned. See if you can find a company near you that works on cell towers. They often get these large generators off the sites and resell them. Another benefit to diesel is if you have a diesel vehicle you basically have an emergency supply of diesel on hand should you need to evacuate your house and you can't find fuel.
Hmmmm.... our LP generator runs at 1800 rpm. Is that "high rpm?"
Ours sounds like a running truck parked in the driveway. Inside the house if we turn the TV off, we can hear a low hum.
We have a 500-ga tank (which is full at 80% / 400 ga). We could run for about 10 days before needing a truck to come out and fill it. But, yes... it could be delayed.
That said... transporting large quantities of diesel yourself can be a logistical challenge. Likewise, you'll have to find a gas station that's open... and wait in line.
Every approach has pros and cons. But, the "high rpm" and "noise" is not an issue in my experience with our LP generator. But, it's not a small engine Generac, either.
Copy; misunderstood earlier comments to be referring to an actual 'switch' (noun) vs switch (v). Mine was not something I'd want to convert back and forth. Same with all the appliances, water heaters, and HVACS. Thanks!
Depending on the unit, it's a switch flip & wire de/connection, depending speed. 1800rpm units mostly do not require a timing change, 3600 fly-a-parts are different depending combustion chamber design. Custom controls can be had for,... Quality Unit's,... that will automatically change to LP if the NG pressure starts to fall. All Your wants can be had if hip national is deep enough. Bottom line, a Diesel resip has a much better/higher heat rate plus when things go to shit it's much easier to conger up a fuel that will burn in most diesels. However wood gas will run any gas engine as well.
Shazzaaam!! Gotta whole box brimming full of NG orifices. THAT'S what I can embrace as a 'new normal'!
I ran a series of USMC 60KW trailer gen sets in the mid 1960's. I'd run them sunset to sunrise, and the Duty Private got to visit his Co in the ville some nights. One night he blew the asss end off my 3/4 ton on a road mine on the way back; walked home.
They were loud, thirsty, and generally indestructible; just don't let the oil level sink too low. We would keep a fuel store of five 55gal drums of Diesel. Ran on GMC/Detroit Diesel 4-71's 1800rpm, all day and night long, shutdown for 5min PM around 6AM and then back off to the races. We're all a bit deaf.
The NVA would probe with 122's Arty, trying to knock out the gen set, which they assumed meant they were dropping them into the HQ area. It got salty.
We'd let them go wide, then shut it down. They'd drop 'em for effect on basically nothing.
Those 60's were THAT loud.
I loved the taste of Charlie-Rats in the morning.
Not!
After 6 months of that, for my sins, I got a transfer into 1st Tracs. Still had to run the gens (now alone), but that was just for breakfast.
Look up 'AmGrunt'.
I cooked juice for the Qua Viet LST/Swift/Riverine/Fuel Farm/Mike-Boat-Express-to-Dong-Ha Base; one 60 and two 30's scattered over couple of square miles.
They were loud, thirsty, and generally indestructible; just don't let the oil level sink too low. We would keep a fuel store of five 55gal drums of Diesel. Ran on GMC/Detroit Diesel 4-71's 1800rpm, all day and night long, shutdown for 5min PM around 6AM and then back off to the races. We're all a bit deaf.
The NVA would probe with 122's Arty, trying to knock out the gen set, which they assumed meant they were dropping them into the HQ area. It got salty.
We'd let them go wide, then shut it down. They'd drop 'em for effect on basically nothing.
Those 60's were THAT loud.
I loved the taste of Charlie-Rats in the morning.
Not!
After 6 months of that, for my sins, I got a transfer into 1st Tracs. Still had to run the gens (now alone), but that was just for breakfast.
Look up 'AmGrunt'.
I cooked juice for the Qua Viet LST/Swift/Riverine/Fuel Farm/Mike-Boat-Express-to-Dong-Ha Base; one 60 and two 30's scattered over couple of square miles.
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The sound attenuated enclosure of modern stuff really knocked the sound way down.
Back at 11th Engrs, our power house ran four 60's in parallel. We cooked juice for pretty much most of the Dong Ha Combat Base.
16 cylinders bellowing in unison out of tomato can stack 'mufflers'.
Awesome...!
"Hey, Joe; you numba ten thou...", when you could find a Co who wasn't actually a Mama-San.
16 cylinders bellowing in unison out of tomato can stack 'mufflers'.
Awesome...!
"Hey, Joe; you numba ten thou...", when you could find a Co who wasn't actually a Mama-San.
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Yep, most of the good stuff is 65dbA @ 3 feet, the better stuff is 45dba @ 3 foot. Some of the stuff used for filming is as low as 25dbA @ 1 foot,...that stuff is not cheap,...
Our Power House used Wood Baffling and Fiberglass Batting; never like that stuff after that.
Outside, quiet; inside, not.
Outside, quiet; inside, not.
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Nice idea, by the way. Thx.
New here, looking for help.
I have a older Onan 15kw propane generator. It's been sitting in my barn since I moved in over 7yrs ago. Never had to use it so was going to try and sell it but the box where you start it from.....I opened it up and mice have completely destroyed all the internal electrical components. does anyone know where I can find a new box, or new internals so I can rebuild it?
Thanks.
I have a older Onan 15kw propane generator. It's been sitting in my barn since I moved in over 7yrs ago. Never had to use it so was going to try and sell it but the box where you start it from.....I opened it up and mice have completely destroyed all the internal electrical components. does anyone know where I can find a new box, or new internals so I can rebuild it?
Thanks.
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That's a 3 phase generator. You would have to rebuild it to 2 phase for it to work with you house service.
Simplest, cheapest ($400), always works solution to run some basics is an inverter for your car. Just run an extension cord to your house. You could probably run it into your panel, but through a window is the easiest. Won't run HVAC, fridge, etc, but will run some lights, tv, internet, microwave and small appliances.
Single is what he meant to say. 240v
A 120 line and a 120 line is two phase.
Now shush or you will ruin the surprise
Single phase is 2 -120v legs
3 phase is 2-120v and one wild to hit 480v
The first will shock you the second will kill you.
3 phase is 2-120v and one wild to hit 480v
The first will shock you the second will kill you.
News to me
Not even close...but makes for a good laugh!
You must be extremely old basturds, we haven’t ran 2 phase power since the early 1900’s. I’m impressed, usually the elderly go run technology as well as you. Better hurry up your oatmeal is warm and Matlock is on.
Actually; he is correct. This is not common anymore but was at one point. It is a Delta connection where the center point of one leg is grounded so you end up with a neutral and a leg of voltage higher then the other 2. I have run into this a few times as an electrician both times was in old industrial areas. This is typically the "B" phase. This is known as the wild leg.
We run a briggs 20kw propane unit, with 2,000 gallons of propane to run it. (I never let it go below 1000 gallons)
45 seconds of no power, and auto transfer switch fires it up and kicks us over to it. I'm presently looking for a whole-home battery backup to bridge that 45 second gap, if anyone has any ideas. Power is dirty here, so I'd like a power conditioning battery backup that can handle cleaning the power when we are on grid, and handle the switch over when we aren't.
45 seconds of no power, and auto transfer switch fires it up and kicks us over to it. I'm presently looking for a whole-home battery backup to bridge that 45 second gap, if anyone has any ideas. Power is dirty here, so I'd like a power conditioning battery backup that can handle cleaning the power when we are on grid, and handle the switch over when we aren't.
You’ll find that on old used equipment.
Especially in the north east industrial parks were its still 208v
first thing you do is start tracing because you have no idea how many times it’s been fixed to death.
May not be cost effective to do so. Although, Onan is one of the higher quality brands out there. See if you can find an Onan authorized repair center or an electric motor repair shop and see what they have to say. If it’s too expensive to fix, part it out for what you can get for it and use that money to fund a new one.
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A touch off of the subject, but we live in piney woods / hurricane country. Given a bit of ice or a bit of wind, (hurricanes or tornados, cause we get em both, or a stupid driver (or in one case a blown local transformer) and being very rural, we could be out for days or weeks. Pine trees love to shed branches or entire trunks. 
We have been using a portable 5K Honda and a 1K Honda. The 1K is not always reliable but the 5K is a real workaholic. I run both regularly and swap out the fuel very regularly. What we have not tried is to run the HVAC. But it has been a lifesaver. the 5K runs both the fridge and deep freeze (got to keep that a venison frozen, its a staple around the Kirste household). Runs fans, the entertainment system and lights around the home, plus keeps the home internet system going.
However, we do not try to run it in the Home electrical system. We run heavy duty power cords to the home and then use heavy duty extension cords to the various systems. To give the 5K a break, at night, we shut everything down and run fans to keep the home reasonably cool during the summer evenings.
Does it work? Yes. Is it perfect, hardly but out in the country, one does what one has too, to survive.
So, I recommend the big Honda’s. They are not cheap but as our nephew, who uses them to run the pumps to irrigate his corn fields, They Run!
We have been using a portable 5K Honda and a 1K Honda. The 1K is not always reliable but the 5K is a real workaholic. I run both regularly and swap out the fuel very regularly. What we have not tried is to run the HVAC. But it has been a lifesaver. the 5K runs both the fridge and deep freeze (got to keep that a venison frozen, its a staple around the Kirste household). Runs fans, the entertainment system and lights around the home, plus keeps the home internet system going.
However, we do not try to run it in the Home electrical system. We run heavy duty power cords to the home and then use heavy duty extension cords to the various systems. To give the 5K a break, at night, we shut everything down and run fans to keep the home reasonably cool during the summer evenings.
Does it work? Yes. Is it perfect, hardly but out in the country, one does what one has too, to survive.
So, I recommend the big Honda’s. They are not cheap but as our nephew, who uses them to run the pumps to irrigate his corn fields, They Run!
Be very careful with the hondas. I was off grid for almost 2 years, and the honda's have some real problems with cold temperatures. Once it gets below 25f or so, they need a special breather kit and warmer kits installed. Otherwise the systems will freeze up. They'll start running rich and it won't take but a few minutes and they'll start to foul the plugs. It can be a real nightmare.
What you are describing is going a long way in the direction of what is called "bumpless transfer". They are usually quite good systems, but come at a very high, premium cost. The newer systems are essentially "always on", full power UPS systems. The AC power to your house/building comes from a DC to AC inverter and it's power is derived from either a utility powered AC to DC converter, or if the power goes out, a DC battery bank. The battery bank is usually charged from the incoming AC/utility line via a charger, or in some cases, auxiliary wind or solar. The other thing to consider is that of maintenance/repair. The more elaborate the system, the more intelligent/better trained/expensive the technician must be. If you're in the city/suburbs, a good tech is probably easier to find. If you're in the country.......well, that could be a challenge.
Honestly, what you have now is a pretty good price/performance trade off. Eliminating that 45 second delay is do-able, but it'll be spendy. I have a 5 or 10 minute delay, because I have to go out to the garage, isolate from the grid (turn off the main breaker in the panel), make the electrical connections, start/warm up the generator and manually do the transfer. It works fine for my/our needs. We get winter storms here in the NW and power can be out for as little as 4 hours, to sometimes (fairly rare) over a week. The less often that you lose utility power or the longer a single outage lasts, the lower the value of bumpless transfer, at least in my opinion.
I haven't looked in a while, but you may want to check into "Outback Power". They were starting to broaden their portfolio to include the above products.
Great reply, Thank you.
However, the "out in the country" is the challenge I'm facing. South Dakota... low population, not much in the way of people intelligent about this sort of thing. My past experiences with datacenter power has helped me some, but I really don't want to design my own system. I understand it will be expensive, and you'll notice nothing in my equation mentioned "cheap."
Our grid power is quite dirty, so even when its on... its not very good. I'd like this solution to clean that up. Appliances, my home theater gear, workstations, etc. Right now I have a ridiculous sum invested in furman power conditioners and at-appliance battery backup units. I'd like to eliminate all the little units by having one big one.
... finding someone to sell and service it... I'm dead in the water presently. One outfit, gen pro, I bought my generator from them and despite having a maintenance agreement, I can't even get them to honor their agreement to service the thing. I have no expectation that they would be true to their word on something more advanced.
Heck of an opportunity in this market for someone savvy. We all run self-sufficient power solutions out here. All my neighbors have something. If someone would actually stand behind their product, they'd make a killing. No one likes resetting their clocks 10x a month.
"Y" & "W" configuration of three phase power.
The W configuration is still used around here. Way back in the early 80's I was told, in an electrical school, that it would be rarely seen.
Back to the topic.
The W configuration is still used around here. Way back in the early 80's I was told, in an electrical school, that it would be rarely seen.
In a 240 box. Reading between any of the three will get 240 volts. Reading between the legs and ground one will read 240 and the other two will read 120. This configuration really helps 3 phase motors.
Back to the topic.
We have been running a 21kw Perkins Diesel genset here for the last 11 years.
Saved our ass every hurricane. We are rural, and need power to get water from the well.
Last month I started a new solar project. No noise, smoke or Diesel fuel required!
Florida Sun is free right now, I’m sure sunlight will be taxed soon.
The Diesel genset will become backup for the Solar.
The Solar I am installing is only 6kw continuous (25A of 240), but can surge to 12kw to start the well pump.
Will also run the house refrigerator and some lights, enough to get by.
solar.schneider-electric.com
The only real installation problem to solve is: How to I anchor the solar panels to stay put in 120 mph wind gusts?
Might try some of these:
Saved our ass every hurricane. We are rural, and need power to get water from the well.
Last month I started a new solar project. No noise, smoke or Diesel fuel required!
Florida Sun is free right now, I’m sure sunlight will be taxed soon.
The Diesel genset will become backup for the Solar.
The Solar I am installing is only 6kw continuous (25A of 240), but can surge to 12kw to start the well pump.
Will also run the house refrigerator and some lights, enough to get by.
XW Pro 120/240V
The Schneider Electric XW Pro 6848 solar inverter provides flexible design with optional generator integration for home and small businesses.
solar.schneider-electric.com The only real installation problem to solve is: How to I anchor the solar panels to stay put in 120 mph wind gusts?
Might try some of these:
I run a 12.5Kw Lister for my house. Was going to go bigger, but this handles the basics just fine(we are all electric kitchen, wood heat). I burn between 1 to 2 quarts of fuel per hour depending on what's going on(hot water etc. Paid 2500, wouldn't take twice that for it. 1964 model, starts instantly. air cooled 2 cylinder weighs around 1200lbs.
So, youre also of the mindset that you have two 120 volt legs and some "wild" leg that gets you to 480volts, three phase?
And that 480 volt kills and 120 volt doesnt?
You also on board with the two phase theory to your home?
Ok.
Interesting, I have been in the electrical trade since 1989 and never heard of a "W" configuration. Not saying it does not exist it just may not be that common. I know the diagrams for Y and Delta systems. Can you draw out the W for me?
I believe that it was used to describe the voltage points. All points of the Y to ground give you 120 and across any of the three you get your 240. Of the three (top) points of the W two to ground give you the 120 and the middle gives you 240.
Never, ever cared about the configuration on the transformer or how they did it. I just needed to know what was available and how to use it for the HVAC equipment I deal with.
Never, ever cared about the configuration on the transformer or how they did it. I just needed to know what was available and how to use it for the HVAC equipment I deal with.
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