Nothing in the world quite like a Marine SNCO... Semper Fi
Advanced Marksmanship Whose has the best Snipers?
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Nothing in the world quite like a Marine SNCO... Semper Fi
Whose has the best Snipers?
I would vote for the Aussies, but any military that has a sniper MOS, or requires years as a sniper to be a sniper team leader, eats our system for breakfast.
Sorry, but as much as I love them the Marines as a group are not the best snipers - although I have seen a few individual Marines who were indeed impressive.
I would vote for the Aussies, but any military that has a sniper MOS, or requires years as a sniper to be a sniper team leader, eats our system for breakfast.
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What graham said
The best "Snipers" come from Mrs.Norris..
Easy. Japan...duh! Ninja + sniper = real ultimate power
- Robert Hamberger.
- Robert Hamberger.
a lot of this is the countries with small military forces where a high percentage of enlisted stay for a whole career - the US system of a large, high turnover military requires high density, short term training in comparison to many other counties
Dup
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Who's the best? It all depends on who you ask. I'm Army, so i would be biased. Another person who was a Marine, would have q different opinion. It would be just like posting those funny questions such as what it the "best" scope. You'll get different opinions.
But to answer your question, the US Army Ranger's produce the best snipers
of course! RLTW
But to answer your question, the US Army Ranger's produce the best snipers
of course! RLTWMrs. Norris??? Seriously? Dude...its G.I. Joe all the way! Maybe Mr. Norris Senior....
Would i ever want to go 1 on 1 with any sniper from any country? With a clear and sound mind... Hell NO!
Would i ever want to go 1 on 1 with any sniper from any country? With a clear and sound mind... Hell NO!
Once again Sir, I find myself agreeing with you, but I think Monge was referring more to my vitriol with young AJ, rather than a commentary on Marine Snipers (which I was not).
Agreed, the Commonwealth forces (UK, AUS, CAN) treat their services like a PROFESSION and pay and train their troops accordingly. They put the focus on their people rather than the newest equipment.
The "best" sniper is the guy who spent all night watching the road intersection your mounted patrol is about to drive through, or the guy doing overwatch for you while you're walking down some sketchy-assed path on your way to some nameless patch of dirt that some officer decided was "of interest". I never once cared what uniform or patch or tab or whatever THAT guy was wearing, I was just grateful as hell that he was there.
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When I was in 'Nam, I never knew whether there was a Sniper in overwatch position as we carried out our day patrols. After some reflection, I've come to suspect that was the best sort of Sniper to have at my back. If there was, it was a very (VERY!!!) remote possibility that it could even have been Carlos. I left 'Nam in early November of 1967, being last stationed at 1st AmTracs in Cua Viet.
Greg
Greg
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OP...on a serious note, you obviously have a high level of motivation to join the Corps...that's great. You also obviously have some growing up to do (as do most kids your age). FWIW, I'll give you some advice before headed out to boot camp.
Your responses are clearly defensive...you gotta get some tougher skin. It can be hard to admit when you are wrong when you're embarrassed....but a mea culpa and being able to laugh at yourself goes a long way in this world. That, and it'll make you a much more likeable person.
In the Corps, as in life, I think a good rule of thumb is to earn people's respect through your actions, and be very careful about your words. When you arrive at a new unit (i.e. boot camp, your first unit in the Fleet, or in this case a new web forum where people with world class experience frequent) you need to remember that you're the new guy. Listen, learn, ask questions after you've done some homework, and listen some more. There is no shame in being new and inexperienced. Everyone starts out there at some point. I'll even go so far as to say this advice matters regardless of whatever rank you happen to be. Generally a wise practice to lay low for a little while and get the lay of the land before flying off at the mouth, even after you've gained some experience.
Last thought, I agree with you that Marines are amongst the most helpful people you'll meet. However, just because someone pulls your punk card for doing something silly doesn't mean they don't have your best interests at heart and aren't trying to help you out. This is pretty common trait amongst guys in the military, especially in combat arms MOS's. They tend not to mix words. Something to remember if/when you graduate boot camp and go on to wherever. You'll learn this lesson quickly after putting your feet on the footprints.
Keep that motivation up, but learn to shut up
Your responses are clearly defensive...you gotta get some tougher skin. It can be hard to admit when you are wrong when you're embarrassed....but a mea culpa and being able to laugh at yourself goes a long way in this world. That, and it'll make you a much more likeable person.
In the Corps, as in life, I think a good rule of thumb is to earn people's respect through your actions, and be very careful about your words. When you arrive at a new unit (i.e. boot camp, your first unit in the Fleet, or in this case a new web forum where people with world class experience frequent) you need to remember that you're the new guy. Listen, learn, ask questions after you've done some homework, and listen some more. There is no shame in being new and inexperienced. Everyone starts out there at some point. I'll even go so far as to say this advice matters regardless of whatever rank you happen to be. Generally a wise practice to lay low for a little while and get the lay of the land before flying off at the mouth, even after you've gained some experience.
Last thought, I agree with you that Marines are amongst the most helpful people you'll meet. However, just because someone pulls your punk card for doing something silly doesn't mean they don't have your best interests at heart and aren't trying to help you out. This is pretty common trait amongst guys in the military, especially in combat arms MOS's. They tend not to mix words. Something to remember if/when you graduate boot camp and go on to wherever. You'll learn this lesson quickly after putting your feet on the footprints.
Keep that motivation up, but learn to shut up
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About to enlist??! so you're a fucking poolee and you talk like that about shit you don't even know yet? I'm not gonna jump on the bandwagon as the ass whippins where many in this thread already but let me tell you this........As someone who was a marine sniper and also a member of MARSOC I find this and your fucking screen name highly offensive. You remind me of the kids who went out and got a Recon Jack tattoo before they even made it through BRC. You know what they do to people like that?......they carve that shit off with a dull spoon.
I admire your willingness to enlist and be a marine but you need to shut your cocksucker and check your tone and go through a few months of the suc before you throw around an attitude like that. Square your ass away son, cause as many said above.....this is a tight knit group with world class knowledge.
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young aj makes me giggle. I remember what it was like to be young and ready to take on the world, hell it wasn't even all that long ago. put your head down kid and take on the world with your actions as many others have said not your words.
After I thought about it, I realized he's not even a poolee yet. He doesn't earn THAT status until he's signed up and is in DEP. Right now he doesn't even rate to talk shit with poolees.
you know, you're right and i just realized that.
Then again....he said you weren't even a REAL marine and he has MARSOC in his name so......
you know, you're right and i just realized that.
Then again....he said you weren't even a REAL marine and he has MARSOC in his name so......
Well damn, I guess he's got me. On the internet having "MARSOC" in your name definitely trumps any real-world accomplishments. I suck.
Guys, you may be talking to a vacuum. AJwhomeverthef**k hasn't posted since the 16th.
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he's somewhere with his tail tucked between his legs. hopefully he lays low and comes back a little more subtle. maybe he'll actually learn a thing or two.
Not to worry, all wrongs get righted in PI, assuming he follows through with his wannabe utterances. At this point, confidence is not high.
Yeah, I figured he's probably moved on to coaching SEALs on how to swim or SF guys on how to grow beards. I've kept active on this thread simply because it turned into a multi-generational koombayah session for us old "salts".
Speaking of, Greg, my sincerest respect and admiration for your service in Vietnam. I never pass up an opportunity to buy a RVN Vet a beer and offer my thanks/respect.
Not having earned anything himself, AJ doesn't grasp that the idea of Marines sharing a brotherhood isn't just some recruiting slogan or kitschy feel-good thing. I've enjoyed some great conversations with WWII Pacific vets, Korean and Vietnam vets, and of course guys from the current conflicts, and it never ceases to amaze me how having earned the "membership" instantly gives us all a common ground. Drinking beer and listening to firsthand stories of the Pacific campaign was amazing, and I could tell that it meant a lot to the WWII guys that us younger guys still held them in such high regard and could appreciate what they did.
Speaking of, Greg, my sincerest respect and admiration for your service in Vietnam. I never pass up an opportunity to buy a RVN Vet a beer and offer my thanks/respect.
Not having earned anything himself, AJ doesn't grasp that the idea of Marines sharing a brotherhood isn't just some recruiting slogan or kitschy feel-good thing. I've enjoyed some great conversations with WWII Pacific vets, Korean and Vietnam vets, and of course guys from the current conflicts, and it never ceases to amaze me how having earned the "membership" instantly gives us all a common ground. Drinking beer and listening to firsthand stories of the Pacific campaign was amazing, and I could tell that it meant a lot to the WWII guys that us younger guys still held them in such high regard and could appreciate what they did.
Hey, I was a Draftee..., but I do like beer...
Few things amuse/confound me more than a clueless wannabe wandering into the VFW and telling us Vets about how things ought to be. Priceless...
None of us seem to be craving respect, we just tend to resent (mildly, no sense in getting our rockets all lit off...) getting dissed.
What troubles me more is how few of the new Vets come around and how fewer stay around. I think its about finding that common ground. I/we Viet Vets were pretty much the same when we had just gotten back.
Things change, and sometimes that's a good thing.
Greg
Few things amuse/confound me more than a clueless wannabe wandering into the VFW and telling us Vets about how things ought to be. Priceless...
None of us seem to be craving respect, we just tend to resent (mildly, no sense in getting our rockets all lit off...) getting dissed.
What troubles me more is how few of the new Vets come around and how fewer stay around. I think its about finding that common ground. I/we Viet Vets were pretty much the same when we had just gotten back.
Things change, and sometimes that's a good thing.
Greg
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Whats the old expression? "If you know, then no explenation is necessary. If you don't know, then no explenation is possible."
Whose has the best Snipers?
On the Internet it's usually a waste of bandwidth.
Stream of consciousness and a lack of punctuation, if you are William Faulkner, can have meaning and message.
On the Internet it's usually a waste of bandwidth.
I enlisted. Having said that some of the best soldiers in my unit (2/502 Inf 101st Abn Div) were draftees. When it came to soldiering, draftees were as good as anyone else. Some better.
Back in my day IIRC the 5th group was over 50% US. The rest RA with very, very few, NG , and of those few, they all were just there for the entry on their 201
Someone asked me if draftee Marines are any different from enlistees.
I couldn't answer at the time, but I now believe that my attitude may have been different after all. There could not have been any misgivings about how I got into the Corps in the first places.
Like it or not, I was in the Corps for the duration, period.
It freed up more of the grey cells for considering the situations at hand, and may have improved my odds.
Greg
I couldn't answer at the time, but I now believe that my attitude may have been different after all. There could not have been any misgivings about how I got into the Corps in the first places.
Like it or not, I was in the Corps for the duration, period.
It freed up more of the grey cells for considering the situations at hand, and may have improved my odds.
Greg
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Granted this is coming from someone who has never served so my ignorance is limited by my total addiction to reading everything "Military". But would not the definition of "best" sniper be the one who completes the mission, no matter how difficult? There are lots of examples of impossible shots under impossible conditions pulled off by men with incredible talent, drive and training. To me the best sniper is any who completed the training and served their country in the field. No matter what branch. Unending thanks and total respect to those who serve. It is because of you we have a forum where we even have this discussion.
Whose has the best Snipers?
A discussion of which country has the 'best' can't be separated from a discussion about which skills (shooting or fieldcraft) and which units from which country are being compared, but I'm not going to do that on a public forum.
So, in general, without telling tales out of school and including my personal biases based on what I have seen (which is by no means all that there is to see) here's my list:
1) Australians
2) Canadians
3) Some NATO allies, depending on the unit.
4) US
5) Brits
Of course, there are individual team examples and individual unit examples than will scramble the above order.
A discussion of which country has the 'best' can't be separated from a discussion about which skills (shooting or fieldcraft) and which units from which country are being compared, but I'm not going to do that on a public forum.
So, in general, without telling tales out of school and including my personal biases based on what I have seen (which is by no means all that there is to see) here's my list:
1) Australians
2) Canadians
3) Some NATO allies, depending on the unit.
4) US
5) Brits
Of course, there are individual team examples and individual unit examples than will scramble the above order.
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Do you think there is a relationship between the size of our military and the fact that you consider our snipers 4th best, Graham?
Odd, when these countries go head to toe, such as the International Sniper Competitions, its always the US Army that wins.
In the Open Class its the AMU
In the Service Class its either the Rangers or Special Operations (Special Forces) group.
That's not odd. It's a shooting competition. We shoot the most.
Using the international sniper competition as a comparison is not a very good example, being that it is put on by the Army, 90% of the teams are from the Army, throw in a few other teams of US Marines and a few local LEO and if you're lucky you get maybe 1 or 2 foreign teams. Hardly a mark for comparison. There were a lot of top tier shooting teams that get denied entry. Not holding anything against Army snipers, it's just a faulty comparison.
I think what Graham may be trying to get at is that some of these countries actually pay for advanced training for their snipers outside of the regular sniper schools and they get a lot more time to focus on their trade. I know when I went through SSBC we didn't get a whole lot of additional training after that, just the occasional range time. Not sure if it's the same way now, but One thing I like about the Army is that they send a lot of their top tier shooters to advance civilian ran schools like Rifles only.
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The US military, especially over the last 100 years, has always valued marksmanship more than most armies. And, if you analzye military rifles back to the good ole 1903, we also had long arms which were better suited to accurate fire. Sights, triggers, National Match components, etc. We could then talk about national traditions, values, etc. All these factors play into who the best marksman are.
Having worked with Brit/ Canadian/ German/ Italian/ Saudi/ French, and obviously US, troops on the rifle range, this theory was validated to me.
Having worked with Brit/ Canadian/ German/ Italian/ Saudi/ French, and obviously US, troops on the rifle range, this theory was validated to me.
Yup, we shoot the most, that's probably why we are the best. Its competition yes, "sniper competition" pitting the Army, Marines, National Guard snipers against International teams to see who's the best.
And yet, our Army Teams still win.
Whose has the best Snipers?
Example: Our snipers can hit targets, but they can't tell you why. Europeans will miss, because they don't shoot as much, but they will tell you why they missed and what equipment they would have needed to accomplish the hit.
It's not so much a size issue as it is a systemic bias. Size is a factor when it comes to the pressure to punch tickets, get promoted, and move up or move out. We cede the advantage regarding institutional knowledge right there.
Kraig,
Batt. Ranger snipers and SF/SOTIC are in a different league.
I know that some people will want to use my post as an opportunity to attack my patriotism, but here's the deal: Like the Israelis, our military retains a bias in favor of experience over knowledge. That's not an evil in itself, it's simply an orientation.
Example: Our snipers can hit targets, but they can't tell you why. Europeans will miss, because they don't shoot as much, but they will tell you why they missed and what equipment they would have needed to accomplish the hit.
It's not so much a size issue as it is a systemic bias. Size is a factor when it comes to the pressure to punch tickets, get promoted, and move up or move out. We cede the advantage regarding institutional knowledge right there.
Kraig,
Batt. Ranger snipers and SF/SOTIC are in a different league.
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you missed my entire post. I believe the competitions you are referring to are biased. simple as that. As I said, the international sniper competition put on at Benning for the last what....2-3 years. out of the 20 or so teams there, 14 of them will be Army teams. The remaining few will be devided by USMC, USNAV, Law Enforcement, and foreign countries. They don't let the most of the top tier teams shoot. Navy SEAL snipers do not work in teams, they work solo and they use that as an excuse to not let them shoot.
Louisiana has the best snipers. No one else come close
NZ has the best snipers. But only on week days because he has weekends off.
I realize this thread has turned into an OP bashing session but here is my thoughts on best sniper... I agree with Grahams list but I think I would put IDF(israeli Defense Force) in the #3 slot. You have to have some admiration for a country that has fought off numerous larger countries with bigger militaries. The Israelies make some sick ass firearms and their proficiency is what keeps Israel an independant country to this day.
On a side note I think its hard to say who really has the best snipers. When in point of fact a snipers job is not broadcast all over CNN unless he/she killed a civilian without cause, or was killed. IMO the sniper has the worst job. Their victories will never be public and their failures can cost alot of people their life. Snipers are often prized catches in many conflicts. I am still under the impression Al Quaida will pay for the capture of US sniper regardless of branch. Being a sniper means putting on your big boy pants going to places nobody wants to go(usually solo or with a spotter). Then having to kill someone they have prolly spent the last few hours staring at. This is not something to take lightly. I am sure any member on here who has ever killed someone will attest that the faces of the people you have killed are burned into your brain. Being a sniper is a responsibility that I suspect 99.9% of people cant comprehend. When I meet "snipers" in army, SF, USMC, I shake their hand and say thanks for all the things they cant talk about! My .02
On a side note I think its hard to say who really has the best snipers. When in point of fact a snipers job is not broadcast all over CNN unless he/she killed a civilian without cause, or was killed. IMO the sniper has the worst job. Their victories will never be public and their failures can cost alot of people their life. Snipers are often prized catches in many conflicts. I am still under the impression Al Quaida will pay for the capture of US sniper regardless of branch. Being a sniper means putting on your big boy pants going to places nobody wants to go(usually solo or with a spotter). Then having to kill someone they have prolly spent the last few hours staring at. This is not something to take lightly. I am sure any member on here who has ever killed someone will attest that the faces of the people you have killed are burned into your brain. Being a sniper is a responsibility that I suspect 99.9% of people cant comprehend. When I meet "snipers" in army, SF, USMC, I shake their hand and say thanks for all the things they cant talk about! My .02
I have been teaching SF how to grow beards for the last 12 months. It is not as easy as you would think. The first thing you need to do is to learn to eat kevlar. After that, your beard becomes bullet proof. That's why SF doesn't wear helmets.
In my off time, I am a beer drinking instructor for SEAL Teams 10. After my expert tutelage, they can now safely never be sober, in fact it is in sop they must be 2x the legal limit to perform missions.
Whose has the best Snipers?
IDF firearms training flat-out sucks: It has been the subject of many a white paper. Other aspects of training are only marginally better.
The IDF's success on the battlefield has nothing to do its with firearms proficiency, and even less to do with their snipers.
IDF firearms training flat-out sucks: It has been the subject of many a white paper. Other aspects of training are only marginally better.
Umbrage I say.
Last I looked there was no range requirement as to the slot name. So where does the transition between assassin an sniper begin? Some country's have to work much closer than others do to A/O, or other requirements. While yet other/s country's think the slot starts at 300yds and beyond, and really hype the longer shots? Are the folks shot at longer range somehow dead'er? Or is that propaganda being used on both sides, all the while profiteering?
Many white papers like some AAR's, aren't worth the ink. The only useful thing they are good for is to see if you need to use the brown again, before the next white,... Remember a,... or the real target,... can also be the audience as well.
Like pushing folks out of certain events via the "Rules",... the word is, Sniper, which last I knew was a single person not combination of folks or distance.
Last I looked there was no range requirement as to the slot name. So where does the transition between assassin an sniper begin? Some country's have to work much closer than others do to A/O, or other requirements. While yet other/s country's think the slot starts at 300yds and beyond, and really hype the longer shots? Are the folks shot at longer range somehow dead'er? Or is that propaganda being used on both sides, all the while profiteering?
Many white papers like some AAR's, aren't worth the ink. The only useful thing they are good for is to see if you need to use the brown again, before the next white,... Remember a,... or the real target,... can also be the audience as well.
Like pushing folks out of certain events via the "Rules",... the word is, Sniper, which last I knew was a single person not combination of folks or distance.
Actually there have been 12 or 13 competitions, depending on whether you want to count 2013 or not (Sequester - did not have a full turnout / competition).
The rundown on the 2012 Competition was:
SERVICE CLASS
1 TEAM 8 469 D CO 2/1 SWTG (A)
2 TEAM-12 424 2-19TH IN
3 TEAM 3 419 USMC SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL (WEST)
4 TEAM 2 419 GSB, SSD 10TH SFG (A)
5 TEAM 4 380 1-89 10TH MTN
6 TEAM 9 375 1-8 4TH ID
7 TEAM 7 372 SOI-W SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL
8 TEAM 6 372 SOI-E SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL
9 TEAM-16 360 HHC 1-16TH IN 1ST ID
10 TEAM-13 352 75TH RANGER RGT.
11 TEAM 5 343 WTBN-Q SCOUT SNIPER SCHOOL
12 TEAM-15 323 HHC (2) 2-69 AR 3RD ID
13 TEAM 1 323 HHC 2-14 10TH MTN
14 TEAM-17 286 HHC 1-158TH IN
15 TEAM-20 284 1-506 IN 101ST
16 TEAM-14 264 HHC (1) 2-69 AR 3RD ID
17 TEAM-10 241 2ND BCT 101ST
18 TEAM-11 227 HHC 1-72 AR 2ID
19 TEAM-18 198 HHC 2-121 IN
20 TEAM-19 156 3-71 CAV 10TH MTN
OPEN CLASS
1 TEAM-21 691 USAMU
2 TEAM-29 552 IRELAND
3 TEAM-26 537 USASOC
4 TEAM-32 451 B/2/3
5 TEAM-28 435 DENMARK
6 TEAM-24 393 USCG
7 TEAM-30 390 SWEDEN
8 TEAM-36 329 GERMANY
9 TEAM-25 326 IRRF
10 TEAM-33 293 4/3 IN
11 TEAM-31 291 620TH GCTS
12 TEAM-27 278 UAE
13 TEAM-34 267 FT. LAUDERDALE SWAT
14 TEAM-35 259 LAS VEGAS SWAT
15 TEAM-23 213 NLD
16 TEAM-22 169 CHICAGO SWAT
Can you really take anything away from that competition in terms of who is best, probably depends on how you want to look at it?
My general takeaway from that year, and many of the previous years:
- Most winners shoot for a living, their primary assignment in their military unit is shooting. Time Shooting makes a difference.
- Recently, winning teams were receiving training from outside of the normal military training channels. Certain parts of the Military have figured out that there is more out there, and they are taking advantage it. Training makes a difference.
- Also recently, some winning teams were utilizing equipment outside of normal military inventory. Some have considered this as "cheating", and as such some restrictions have been implemented on & off again. Equipment makes a difference.
- Shooting Skill Set is part of it, but not all of it. The Int Sniper Comp places an emphasis on being "operationally capable", so things like physical fitness and field skills come into play. Well-rounded Complete Skill Set makes a difference.
- The sample size for teams outside of the US Military, and to a certain extent outside of the Army, are not large enough or consistent enough to prove anything.
Key thing to remember about the Int Sniper Comp, it was intended to be more of a training / networking / see what works best event, versus being just a straight up competition. The ultimate goal was to bring the "best snipers" together from all over the world so they could learn from one another.
I am not aware of any "Sniper Competition" that exists which would come even close to identifying which Country or Military has the best Snipers.
Of course many would argue, the title "Best Snipers" is not something that can be determined simply through competition.
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^Well said.
I got one of their “Bat-Wing” badges some time ago.
On a related note….
I once sat in a lecture hall with a few hundred other officers listening to a guy from the IDF with an eye patch talk about the whole Arab versus Israeli unpleasentness.
It’s been a long time but as I recall he said something to the effect, “If you want to assure victory on the battle field; fight Arabs.”
He didn’t seem to have much appreciation for their technical or tactical proficiency.
FWIW, a couple of guys from the UAE did really well at Benning this year. (They had an American coach.)
Stream of consciousness….Faulkner…..OMG…..
Looking back into history the best snipers of any given era came from a nation that was in conflict using snipers at the time. Case in point when the Iraq war started may knew that confirmed kill numbers would be high and new records most likely set. Not that confirmed kill numbers are the end all as a measure, but a target rich, urban environment was going to produce. So who is the best today? Well who has been staying alive on a battlefield rather than in an annual competition and probably keeping their mouth shut on what they do.
Another sacred cow, SLAIN.
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