Why not the Winchester model 70

[gnappi]

Is there something about the model 70 that makes it unsuitable for long range work?

I mean you never (or rarely) see someone building one for long range. What's the deal? I have an older 70 "Featherweight" in 7mag that may be fun to play with. The barrel is shot out but the rest is solid. Should I stick with what I have (Savage and Remington) and leave it alone?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Nothing at all wrong with the Model 70, I like its flat action my self.

My 1000 yard rifle in 300 WM is on a Model 70 action, I also built a Vietnam Era Sniper Clone in '06 that shoots rather well.

My favorite action/rifle.

 

[lazy21]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

nothing wrong with a model 70, here's my built FN(model 70)

and another I'm dropping off tomorrow to have the barrel swapped out

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

+1 on the Win70/FN SPR... As long as its CRF!

They are fine rifles with many nice features, like CRF, excellent safety, integrated recoil lug, coned breech, and a bolt knob that doesn't break of in your hand.

Is the OPs action CRF? If so, don't build off it, its junk and I'll buy it from you to make a Christmas tree ornament!! ;-)

 

[huntsmuleys]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Nothing wrong with model 70's. Here is my model 70 crf,

 

[lazy21]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I like where this thread is going

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Here is what a Model 70 target rifle is suppose to look like.

 

[2tuf4u]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

As a 30 year Rem s700 fan, I am totally impressed with the CRF Win/FN actions. Send it to S.A.C for a custom chambered barrel mated to a quality fiberglass stock and you will have a combat ready rifle to take care of you. Best. joe

 

[sawcut]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I wondered the same thing as the OP, and would build with the Model 70. The action has a number of good features: all forged steel, flat bottomed action, integral recoil lug, the bolt can be disassembled in the field, the bolt handle is solidly mounted, and near foolproof controlled round feeding/solid extraction. Coned breech for better cartridge feeding. Gas protection is updated from the earlier Model 70. They are improved versions of Mauser 98 actions, that function-wise, are proven rugged and reliable, for a precision instrument in a harsh environment.

Some cons (these are points I collected from reading other reviews): the cut out in the reciever may make the action less stiff for maximum accuracy, due to the cut and resulting asymmetry of the receiver ring. The safety may be slightly noisy when you push it forward. Is the action as stiff as a comparable Remington or Savage? I am not sure.

These are pretty minor issues, if they are even real issues, for a field gun. Since CDI bottom metal is available for a good, detachable mag option, you have all the needed parts for a solid performing rifle.

I think that the appeal of the Remington 700 is that there are alot of options for it, that are functionally equivalent, but people just like to customize their rifle their way. There may be 8 companies making bottom metal for the Remington, and 20 making scope bases. But as long as you have one or two solid options, does it really matter that you have one component over another, beyond personal preference?

For me, since I am interested in a reliable field rifle, and 600 yard accuracy (not competition winning accuracy) I think this action is the best available until you move up to custom actions. If I were doing a clean start on a rifle set up, I would go with the Model 70.
Brian

 

[Blackhawk95]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I want to say I read where David Tubb and another big name Whidden? have used M70's in the past. Dont get me wrong Im not saying they are better Im just saying they have been used and done well in in comps.

I have an M70 switch barrel I love. .243AI and 6mmbr barrels. With a Manners stock and Jewel trigger.

 

[jdutton24]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jeremiahjs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nothing wrong with model 70's. Here is my model 70 crf,

</div></div>

what brake is that

 

[anthonylapoint]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Looks like a RWS break! I love mine

 

[greyson]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

FN SPR A3g. Winchester Model 70 action. My only bolt gun. I do everything with it.

Regards,
Greyson

By greyson at 2011-11-24

By greyson at 2008-11-11

 

[Blackbrush]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I concur with much of what has been said. I'd like to add that there is no more reliable and simple trigger. The safety is exceptional.

It is not quite as popular imho because it is a bit more expensive in most regards and it is not as easy to chuck up in a lathe and blueprint/refine/etc as are the round actions.

For me it's an obvious choice as a tactical rifle because it is so reliable and simple.

 

[Field]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I am just waiting on my barrel and stock to arrive and I will be putting together a 308 on a FN SPR action. I love the CRF actions and have also put together some very nice rifles on the newer push feed actions. Would stay away from the older push feed ones though.

 

[FNJammer]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Nothing wrong with the M-70/FN actions at all. I have three of them. I have owned just about everything out there in terms of production actions and in my view it is superior in every meaningful way. Too many people new to the game seem to think the Remington 700 is the only way to go and that is just not so. The only thing the Rem really has going for it is parts avaliability.

 

[whitetailnut]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here is what a Model 70 target rifle is suppose to look like.
</div></div>

Here is one you don't see everyday, Winchester Model 70 International Army Match

 

[sawcut]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Nice example, with the International Army Match. The stock reminds me of the M28's from Finland (built off of Mosin Nagants). Seeing the rifles posted, and the other replies, it does seem that there are a number of people who do like the Model 70 for their rifle.

 

[HoytFlinger]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Hathcock used them. Nuff said.

 

[med17]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I've shot Mod 70's for years. Tough as nails and they always go bang. And your right KraigWY that is what a Mod 70 Target is suppossed to look like. Nice Dist.#1536

 

[Cegorach]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I love my fn spr build. Very positive feeding, extracting, and ejecting.

 

[huntsmuleys]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SavageMOA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks like a RWS break! I love mine </div></div>
Yes, RWS brake!

 

[chrisj]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

If the US Military switch to M70's/FN's tomorrow...there would be so many 700's in the FOR SALE section that your head would spin! Many shooters follow what the Military shoots. I like Rems and M 70's but I would take a M70 CRF if I needed a rifle for a dangerous game hunt. Never had a round pop out in a CRF but it has happened a number of times with a 700.

 

[physhphude]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Part of what made the Remington 700 so popular back in the day was the round action. It was very easy to work on with just a lathe.

Now it doesn't matter as much, but most of the aftermarket has been developed around the R700.

I remember reading somewhere that the Win model 70 is technically a slightly better action, because of the recoil lug etc.

 

[Biscuit]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

What is wrong with CRPF? WHat years were the M70 CRPF? How can I tell which is which if looking at rifle from pawn shop?

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HoytFlinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hathcock used them. Nuff said. </div></div>

Most military guys will use what they are issued.

 

[Engine 22]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I have one of each, CRF and CRPF, both are reliable and both are accurate. One is factory (for now) and the other has been to get a GAP treatment and a new barrel. I don't see me getting rid of either of them for a while

. Nothing wrong with the CRPF at all, unless you're concerned about hunting dangerous game and in that case you probably wouldn't go for the Remington either.

Joel. B- If looking down at the top of the bolt, the CRF will have a distinctive claw on one side of the bolt that grabs the round once it's been chambered or sometimes when feeding from the magazine (like a Mauser). The CRPF bolt looks like a Remy- without the claw, but will have a small "claw" on the face of the bolt, much like a Savage. Hopefully I used the correct terminology.

 

[BobC]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Nothing wrong with the push feed M70s ether as far as I can see. Mine has been rock solid and absolutely reliable for almost 30 years of hard use. I can't say the same about some of the various 700s I've owned or been around.

 

[leadbullet]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

nothing wrong at all, but there are better stiffer actions.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I love my Win M70 Long Range Hunter (Laredo) very accurate and one of my fav hunting rifles

 

[Hookturnr]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

My customs are built on remmy 700's but only because the M70 CRF I have is like my child..1941 M70 30-06 bought new by my great grandfather and passed through the generations to me. It's definitely seen a tough road(circular saw stock shortening in the 60's) but it's killed a metric shit ton of deer and it won't ever get altered in my hands even if it is too damn short for me!

 

[mosin46]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

if i could pick one rifle to acquire thru divine intervention it would be a pre 64 (pre 50 even)mod 70 super grade like NIB in '06-VERY LOL! i grew up on jack o'connor stories so go figure.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Here's my FN SPR build in 284Win - still needs melonite and ion bond, but it's close!

 

[Action Guy]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Joel B.:

Controlled round feed (CRF) has a claw extractor (like originally on a Mauser) and a blade ejector. The bottom of the bolt face is open so the cartridge rim slides up under the extractor as it comes off the magazine. The ejector sat in the rear receiver ring and passed through the bolt face as it was brought to the rear to eject the case and chamber a new one. It came with a coned breach to aid in chambering. This is the set up for the Winchester pre'64 Model 70.

In 1964, Winchester went through a phase where they redesigned most of their firearms to make them cheaper and easier to manufacture. For the M-70, they made it a push feed, like the Remington. The post'64 M-70 had a plunger ejector like the Remington and a sliding plate extractor we know now as the "Savage Style". With these rifles, the cartridge had to be completely chambered before the extractor had control of the cartridge rim. The bolt head was a complete circle, like the Remington, but it was the button ejector on the bolt face that really kept it from being a controlled round feed rifle.

In the 1990s Winchester "redesigned" their M-70 again and brought back out the M-70 "Classic" action. It had the same claw extractor and blade ejector of the pre'64 M-70. Soon there after, they also launched a hybrid M-70 called the Controlled Round Push Feed (CRPF). This action had a blade ejector, open bottom breach face, but a sliding plate extractor of the post'64 M-70. It helped reduce cost, but still offered controlled round feed as the cartridge rim slides under the extractor as it comes off the magazine. With the blade ejector off the bolt face, it was clear as well. When they launched their CRPF action, their post '64 style push feed actions were dropped from the line.

But for a few other minor changes, the base action, the safety, and the trigger have remained pretty much the same for most of these years. Now Winchester M-70s have the three-lever "MOA" trigger, where before 2006, they were all the two-lever M-70 trigger, that most of us who know, love. There is nothing wrong with the MOA trigger. However, the two-lever is so much simpler and has a longer track record of success.

Hope this helps.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Interesting! I'm kind of a bit if a Winnie guy (care of FN SPR), but I didn't realize there was a hybrid CRPF design.

Iftge CRPF is the "classic", what are the claw-extractor CRF models called these days?

I know there's nothing wrong with the PF or CRPF designs, but I will only own the true CRF... Please feel free to pass that along to your management, Ben!

 

[Joezone]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

The classic is not controlled round push feed, the classic is very similar to the pre-64 and in some ways better than the pre-64. The classic is actually controlled round feed. From my experience they can be plenty accurate. But unfortunately even these rifles can have feeding problems if they aren't put together with proper quality control. I've had as many or more feeding problems with M70's than M700's. However you don't have to worry about the plunger ejector jamming up on the M70.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

My SPR, pictured above feeds beautifully. It's the CDI bottom metal, fit to the action by me. It's the slickest-feeding bolt action I've felt, my Sako TRG included.

Here's a pic of the bottom metal, looking up into the action:

 

[Joezone]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

It should also be noted that with the new trigger the current M70 takes a large detour from the pre-64's and M70 classic's. One of the main reason's for the success and popularity of these actions among hunters was the reliable trigger design. From what I've seen of the new ones the triggers have a nice crisp pull but they almost certainly aren't as reliable as the old M70 trigger.

 

[Joezone]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

My FNA3G has the old style trigger and I believe all the SPR's do. These are also based on a classic action. Mine has a floor plate and feeding was actually pretty poor, but I had a gunsmith fix that. I'd like to eventually put DBM on it and its encouraging to hear that system feeds well. My trigger was also very heavy on the rifle (over 5 lbs according to my gage) so I had a good trigger job done on it and had the extractor replaced with a Williams extractor. Of course this all violates the warranty but it has a good barrel so no matter. The neat thing is having an accurate chrome lined barrel, those two usually don't go together to the extent they do in this rifle.

 

[Action Guy]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

While they had both in the line-up (in the mid-1990s into the early 2000s), the CRF model was called the "Model 70 Classic" and the CRPF was just "Model 70". For a while they carried both. If you find the M-70 Shadow and the M-70 Ultimate Shadow, they are the basically the same rifle, but the Shadow has the CRPF action and the Ultimate Shadow has the CRF classic action (stock color may be different as well).

I believe (not 100% sure) the CRPF action is now out of the Winchester line-up and all M-70s are of the CRF claw extractor design, and they just go by M-70 since there is only one style, once again.

For FN fans, the SPR has always been the CRF claw extractor and two-lever trigger. Early PBRs were the CRPF action with two-lever trigger (had black stocks). PBR-XPs were CRF actions (with green stocks). Now, TSR-XPs are all CRF actions with three lever trigger and green stock, except for the TSR-XP USA which is a CRPF action (.223 Rem only). Clear as mud? Thought so.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Joezone</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My FNA3G has the old style trigger and I believe all the SPR's do. These are also based on a classic action. Mine has a floor plate and feeding was actually pretty poor, but I had a gunsmith fix that. I'd like to eventually put DBM on it and its encouraging to hear that system feeds well. My trigger was also very heavy on the rifle (over 5 lbs according to my gage) so I had a good trigger job done on it and had the extractor replaced with a Williams extractor. Of course this all violates the warranty but it has a good barrel so no matter. The neat thing is having an accurate chrome lined barrel, those two usually don't go together to the extent they do in this rifle. </div></div>

Think carefully before screwing with your A3G! I had one and LOVED it, but realized I didn't want it as a 308, plus, I wanted a DBM. I considered adding one, and rebarreling, but didn't want to ruin the A3G value, or the incredible warranty of 1/2 moa for LIFE.

You may wanna pick up another action and build one, or start with a plain A1 or something instead.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Ben, will triggers interchange between all models?

 

[lazy21]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ben, will triggers interchange between all models?</div></div>

yes, I run jewells in mine @ 10oz

 

[Action Guy]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

No, the two lever and the three lever triggers do not inter change. The pin spacing is different. The striker-to-sear engagement on the two lever is a 45 degree angle, where on the three lever it is a 90 degree angle. There might be some extra room needed in the bottom of the receiver of the three lever, but I'm not 100% sure.

The three lever is more of a modular trigger. It is easily adjustable, very reliable and crisp, but is closed like many others. The two lever is the the old reliable, simple, open model designed before WWII. Still works for me, though. When it is adjusted, you can see what you are adjusting. It cleans out easily.

 

[lazy21]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I learned something today, I thought they were all the same.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lazy21</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I learned something today, I thought they were all the same. </div></div>

Yep! Lots to learn on the 'hide!

 

[softcock]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Same here / Have had both CFR & Push-Feed ( Pre & Post 64 ) on the mdl. 70 Win .
Both are great models & 'Strong Actions' w/ a Strong Bolt design . My favorite & accurate 300wm @ this moment is a 70 push-feed I shoot .
Only thing that is a little on the negative side of the Control Feed Bolt . Is you should Not single feed by hand . but only pick-up/ Feed from the Mag. Box .

That Post-64 is nice with the Large Extractor It is Beefy Mauser design Extractor . Really a nice Brass grabber .
But I have had No problems ever with the post-64 Push-feed smaller Extractors with many years of shooting & several thousand round out them .
(Except ) a couple years ago I did break one extractor in a Post-64 mdl-70 .
& it was weird, as it was a normal extraction of the Brass & Extractor claw chipped . & no idea what the cause was except for maybe age & life span of the metal with fatigue .
.

 

[Action Guy]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Single feed, or chamber feed, of a single round is okay with current production CRF Winchesters and FNs. While earlier (pre '64s and Mausers) this may not have been advised, I have personally single fed over 3000 rounds into the chamber of a single SPR. That extractor never failed to feed or extract once. Granted, it is a bit stiff for the extractor to snap over the rim, but it will not hurt it. Some finish will be worn from the extractor face, but it will work.

After over 15k rounds (3000 single feeds followed by four rounds from the magazine each time) that same extractor still functions today. I thought it would fail, too. But it didn't. It is relentless.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

I can't speak to the long action models, but with my SA, with both AI and Alpha magazines, you can simply drop a cartridge into the action and close the bolt - it still "control - feeds". The followers in the magazines have a hump/trough, so the ass-end of the cartridge drops into the trough, going low enough to get under the extractor. As the bolt continues forward, the cartridge rides up the follower, and up into/against the boltface, properly captivated by the extractor.

I agree you should avoid push-feeding a CRF action, forcing the extractor over/around the rim!

 

[DropZone]

Re: Why not the Winchester model 70

Over the years I've owned all kinds of rifles from Mauser to Steyr and many Remington 700's in between. Heck, I even have a pair of model 788's that shoot like a dream. But I never owned a Winchester.

This past year, a client of mine was talking to me about how he loved his M70 Coyote in .308 but was going to get rid of it to fund a new pistol build I was doing for him. I asked him if it shot well and he said yes. So we traded the rifle for some labor. Best trade I ever made. That rifle shoots sub .5 moa five shot groups all day if I do my part. And the trigger...wow...

Liked it so much that I got a M70 Coyote in .223 and guess what? It shoots sub .400's all day if I do my part...and I'm talking five shot groups! Then I decided to get into F Class over the winter and picked up a M70 Coyote in .22-250 as a donor gun for the one Randy Gregory is building me in .240NMC. Some folks said I'm nuts but I like the action and there have been plenty of hi-power shooters that have won at perry shooting modified M70's.

Recently the same friend that traded me his .308 turned me on to a GB auction and I picked up this gun built on a 1947 M70 action with a fresh Krieger 1-8 twist barrel for a song:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...081#Post3132081

Can't wait to finish working up some loads and try it out as I'm sure it is going to be a real shooter, even if I do change out the stock at some point.

One thing I have found out though in the process of having the F Class rifle built on a M70 action...not as many stock options for them as for a Rem 700. But you know what, it doesn't bother me much as I'll just have a custom stock built for it if I have to and enjoy shooting the heck out of it!

Don't know why I waited all these years to try one but glad it finally happened. Working on the triggers is a DREAM, especially if you understand geometry, springs and how they work together. And from what I've seen so far they shoot great! My thoughts to the OP are re-barrel that action and enjoy it for many rounds to come!

And thanks to all of you that have posted great info about the M70's, it's a wonderful thing to learn new information!

Regards,
Joe