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Sidearms & Scatterguns Why you DON'T like Glock.

COLOSHOOTR said:
Cobracutter,

I have to step in here and correct some of your false statements. Please don't take any of this personally as I do understand you are just trying to prove your point that Glocks are great combat handguns. Honestly I agree they are great pistols but are not the end all be all of handguns.

First off I know of several large Police Departments that do allow carry of the M&P and XD. How do I know? I carry an M&P and work for one of the top 30 largest agencies in the country. I know of many other large agencies that also allow them. Most of those agencies run the pistols through a pretty thorough selection process before allowing them to be carried. BTW there were several H&K pistols that failed those tests and we're not approved. The H&K pistols that were approved were recently removed from our authorized list since some broke and H&K customer service was pure shit even to a large agency. We have had no known failures with the M&P so far. Glocks have a great track record too with very few failures over many years.

One of your firearms training experts you keep mentioning also has a track history of using the M&P. That person is Travis Haley. Watch all his Magpul training videos and check out the M&P in his holster. I would not put too much stock in what those trainers say because most of them are paid to use what is in their holster or get some form of kickbacks for it, not because they are using the best of the best....


Just my two cents....
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Thanks for the info. However there is a big difference between being issued by a large department and letting officers buy what they want (which is common in the west and south).

Scenario 1: Police department is looking for new issued guns. Does an analysis, T&E and or buys based on what another agency does. Gets the guns and "support"
Scenario 2: Guy gets hired as police. Is either given a small stipend or told to buy what he wants. Since most cops don't know their ass from hole in the ground (like most civilians) about guns, he buys the cheapest gun he can get away with. It's not like the cops here in MD/DC/VA who can start around $50K a year and easily push $100K with overtime. So he buys a cheap gun and doesn't know any better.

There is a HUGE difference between an individual officer purchase, a small department purchase and a large agency purchase. Look at what the large agencies buy. Also notice, Atlanta PD is not getting rid of the M&P going back to the Glock because of the massive amount of issues with them. Texas DPS & NC State Troopers also got rid of theirs over same issues. Even agencies get caught up in the latest/greatest thinking the grass is always greener. Who knows, if their armorers or people doing the T&E are even competent?

Love to hear more about the HK, considering it usually tops most tests in performance but is either not chosen because of price or lack of a striker variant.

Your right about the trainers in their videos. Actually take their classes and talk to them offline, and you will get no bs answers. They know what works and what doesn't because guys bring different gear all the time.

Depite all that, there are still serious issues with the M&P. Some have been fixed, and some haven't. They took an older design, cleaned up some lines to make it pretty, and sold it as the M&P. It still has the same accuracy issues, it still has an absolute shit trigger that needs $200 in parts/work to be serviceable. It still has barrel lock up issues that are one of the reasons for accuracy issues. Some are better than others, but thats more to do with manufacturing variability. Looks like they fixed the rusting issues and a couple of others so they get credit for that.

Bottom line, people who have a HIGH probability of getting into a gunfight, and can choose their gear..... usually have one of two brands strapped to their hip. S&W and Springfield they are not.
 
Cobracutter said:
Thanks for the info. However there is a big difference between being issued by a large department and letting officers buy what they want (which is common in the west and south).

Scenario 1: Police department is looking for new issued guns. Does an analysis, T&E and or buys based on what another agency does. Gets the guns and "support"
Scenario 2: Guy gets hired as police. Is either given a small stipend or told to buy what he wants. Since most cops don't know their ass from hole in the ground (like most civilians) about guns, he buys the cheapest gun he can get away with. It's not like the cops here in MD/DC/VA who can start around $50K a year and easily push $100K with overtime. So he buys a cheap gun and doesn't know any better.

There is a HUGE difference between an individual officer purchase, a small department purchase and a large agency purchase. Look at what the large agencies buy. Also notice, Atlanta PD is not getting rid of the M&P going back to the Glock because of the massive amount of issues with them. Texas DPS & NC State Troopers also got rid of theirs over same issues. Even agencies get caught up in the latest/greatest thinking the grass is always greener. Who knows, if their armorers or people doing the T&E are even competent?

Love to hear more about the HK, considering it usually tops most tests in performance but is either not chosen because of price or lack of a striker variant.

Your right about the trainers in their videos. Actually take their classes and talk to them offline, and you will get no bs answers. They know what works and what doesn't because guys bring different gear all the time.

Depite all that, there are still serious issues with the M&P. Some have been fixed, and some haven't. They took an older design, cleaned up some lines to make it pretty, and sold it as the M&P. It still has the same accuracy issues, it still has an absolute shit trigger that needs $200 in parts/work to be serviceable. It still has barrel lock up issues that are one of the reasons for accuracy issues. Some are better than others, but thats more to do with manufacturing variability. Looks like they fixed the rusting issues and a couple of others so they get credit for that.

Bottom line, people who have a HIGH probability of getting into a gunfight, and can choose their gear..... usually have one of two brands strapped to their hip. S&W and Springfield they are not.
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Sir,

All these problems with the M&P you speak of... Do you know of them by personal experience or just bases upon Internet rumor / what some big name trainer told you?

I know for a fact the M&P was put through a very professional and thorough test here as one of the guys doing it was a die hard Glock guy and admitted he wanted the gun to fail. It didn't.

As of right now there are over 300 agencies including some large ones like Detroit PD Cincinnati PD, Colorado State Patrol, Charlotte PD and Denver PD to name a few. None of those agencies are reporting problems with them. As for the ones you named that dropped the M&P so you know anything other than what you read online? Sure there is not way more to the story? Well I will tell you now there is....

Texas DPS a certian person in a fairly high rank stated something to the effect that they will never carry some sissy plastic pistol as long as he is around. BTW they use Sig handguns not Glock or H&K. A source i know confirmed there is way more to the story and it was not because of failures.

Atlanta PD.... LMAO that Glock press release says it all but incase you didn't catch on it was pure politics and you are a fool if you don't see it. What state are US Glocks made in? Hmmm GA is written on the slide of mine interesting..... How many jobs did Glock say they created there? Word from someone I know out there was that it was a political move plain and simple.

NC State don't know anyone there and don't know any further details like I do from the other two where I have been told it was all political. It's interesting from the story I read online they use .357sig and now carry Sig 226's. It's also interesting that they were in no rush to pull them all out of service saying the M&P issues were not a major safety concern. Ever think Sig might have under bid S&W to get the contract?

BTW we trained with some of those high speed low drag operator types that are very likely to be out on the two way range in some unknown place. I didn't see too many Glocks on their hips. I actually think SIG dominated the holsters of those types not Glock or H&K. Granted it's only one such unit I was with but they definitely did not have what you said sould be on their hips (or on their vests).

Since you like to bring up examples why do you seem to forget that many departments dropped the .40 Glocks that were having the well documented issues with weapon mounted lights? Sig and S&W sure won a few contracts after that. There have also been plenty of issues with the Glock and they have been fixed and modified over the years just like the M&P or any new offerings from anyone else.


All I ask is be fair and don't bash everything else baised on what rumors you've heard. Glock pistols are fine weapons and I carried one for a while but the M&P's / Sig's (and many more such as H&K) are also great weapons that are carried by many that do work in harms way and are likely to end up in a gun fight.
 
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Cobracutter said:
You must have lived in a bubble outside of 2011-2012. This is when Glock had issues with flinging brass back. For the 30 years before it was never a problem and has since been fixed.
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God damn cobra cutter I want you on my side, way to go brother. No B S
 
Wait one, I saw the other posts, pro M&P, okay we are talking price points here as well, you cannot compare a Glock to an HK if price points are in the mix....

I would prefer a Nighthawk,all things considered,every time.
 
COLOSHOOTR said:
Sir,

All these problems with the M&P you speak of... Do you know of them by personal experience or just bases upon Internet rumor / what some big name trainer told you?

I know for a fact the M&P was put through a very professional and thorough test here as one of the guys doing it was a die hard Glock guy and admitted he wanted the gun to fail. It didn't.

As of right now there are over 300 agencies including some large ones like Detroit PD Cincinnati PD, Colorado State Patrol, Charlotte PD and Denver PD to name a few. None of those agencies are reporting problems with them. As for the ones you named that dropped the M&P so you know anything other than what you read online? Sure there is not way more to the story? Well I will tell you now there is....

Texas DPS a certian person in a fairly high rank stated something to the effect that they will never carry some sissy plastic pistol as long as he is around. BTW they use Sig handguns not Glock or H&K. A source i know confirmed there is way more to the story and it was not because of failures.

Atlanta PD.... LMAO that Glock press release says it all but incase you didn't catch on it was pure politics and you are a fool if you don't see it. What state are US Glocks made in? Hmmm GA is written on the slide of mine interesting..... How many jobs did Glock say they created there? Word from someone I know out there was that it was a political move plain and simple.

NC State don't know anyone there and don't know any further details like I do from the other two where I have been told it was all political. It's interesting from the story I read online they use .357sig and now carry Sig 226's. It's also interesting that they were in no rush to pull them all out of service saying the M&P issues were not a major safety concern. Ever think Sig might have under bid S&W to get the contract?

BTW we trained with some of those high speed low drag operator types that are very likely to be out on the two way range in some unknown place. I didn't see too many Glocks on their hips. I actually think SIG dominated the holsters of those types not Glock or H&K. Granted it's only one such unit I was with but they definitely did not have what you said sould be on their hips (or on their vests).

Since you like to bring up examples why do you seem to forget that many departments dropped the .40 Glocks that were having the well documented issues with weapon mounted lights? Sig and S&W sure won a few contracts after that. There have also been plenty of issues with the Glock and they have been fixed and modified over the years just like the M&P or any new offerings from anyone else.


All I ask is be fair and don't bash everything else baised on what rumors you've heard. Glock pistols are fine weapons and I carried one for a while but the M&P's / Sig's (and many more such as H&K) are also great weapons that are carried by many that do work in harms way and are likely to end up in a gun fight.
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I've been monitoring this thread for a little bit. A lot of manufacturers make great pistols and Glock is arguably the best there is when it comes to a no BS duty pistol. Cobracutter is correct in his assessment that the top combat shooters shoot Glock. I don't know who you consider to be "high speed low drag" but units such as CAG, Team 6, 75th etc are shooting Glocks. Some guys are gun guys and have their own flavor of what they like but when it comes to their work gun it's a Glock. Vanilla SEAL teams have been carrying SIGS for years and a lot of their support has as well. Bottom line, the top direct action units in the world shoot Glock for a reason.
 
Cobracutter said:
Disagree. The M&P is flawed out of the box and STILL has engineering deficiencies that result in firing out of battery and a shitty barrel lockup that doesn't lend well to accuracy. Lets not even get to rust out of the box and the abomination of a trigger/sear group that requires a $200 replacement to become serviceable. With that being said, its still a vasty superior pistol to the XD. That is pretty telling....

Please tell me what other pistols are use by other military s, that are superior to glocks. The Most ELITE units in the world, all shoot glocks and HK's. Delta, Rangers, SEALS, SF, GSG-9, SAS, ect.... All shoot either HK or Glocks. Yea there are some other shit sprinkled in there and plenty of non gun guys or followers who just use whatever they are issued, but the fact remains.... The BEST combat shooters in the world almost all shoot glocks. Is this some sort of coincidence? Do they get some kind of super special glocks with fairy dust? Most countries shoot domestic guns if they can, or shoot what is provided via FMS. Those that are hindered by neither, and know what the fuck is up, usually chose HK's or Glocks.

You are cherry picking information. One of the BEST 1911 builders in the world, and the former pistol instructor & one of the founders of IDPA is Larry Vickers. He will be the first to tell you, the 1911 has seen its day. Just because a few special snowflakes want to ignore reason, does not make it a good idea. You have no fathomable idea how much money and maintenance it takes to keep a 1911 running durring heaving firing schedules. There is a reason most operators were issued 3 guns. At any given time, 1 or 2 were down for maintenance.

No one is saying glocks are perfect. They are just ONE of the right solutions to certain problems. Natural pointer and all this bullshit is just that, bullshit. Pistol shooting is fucking hard. There is no other way to put it. Its magnitudes harder to not only train to proficency, but to maintance proficency with a pistol then with a rifle/carbine. Most people can't shoot for dick. Training fixes this. What you think you know about pistol shooting (and I admit I am not a great shot with one, hence why I train) and reality are not the same. Too many guns&ammo and internet bullshity urban legend shit.... just like most of this thread, prove most people don't know dick.

How many rounds do you see down range a week? Because the top instructors in the world do not sugar coat this shit. They know what works and what doesn't work. Low round count, low sample size bullshit is just that. If you aren't putting 500-1200rnds through the gun each training day, you aren't doing anything. Feel free to search out their opinions. Ask any of the most respected guys in the industry (some lurk here) what they think about XD's.

Its not a Ford vs chevy, its more like Toyota vs some shitty Chinese brand that costs less but leaves you stranded on the side of the road in the middle of a snowstorm.

Like I said glock is not perfect, but compared to those mentioned, its not even close.
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Sums it up.
 
rgrmike said:
I've been monitoring this thread for a little bit. A lot of manufacturers make great pistols and Glock is arguably the best there is when it comes to a no BS duty pistol. Cobracutter is correct in his assessment that the top combat shooters shoot Glock. I don't know who you consider to be "high speed low drag" but units such as CAG, Team 6, 75th etc are shooting Glocks. Some guys are gun guys and have their own flavor of what they like but when it comes to their work gun it's a Glock. Vanilla SEAL teams have been carrying SIGS for years and a lot of their support has as well. Bottom line, the top direct action units in the world shoot Glock for a reason.
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Well you listed the unit I'm talking about and I still didn't see Glocks buy okay you all seem to know more than I do even with my personal experience.... Are you going to tell me next that USAF pilots carry Glocks too because Glock had it on their Web page and it's all over the Internet?

The funny thing is I am actually a Glock fan and at the time if writing this am no further than 3 ft away from one I still carry every now and then. The problem I have is when people come in and say x y& z carry Glock and Glock is the best there is nothing else worth a damn out there because it's not true. There are plenty of other handguns that are just as reliable and have seen just as many gunfights as Glock but for some reason they don't get as many fan boys. You all will even ignore the bad stories such as the report that delta/cag dropped the G22 because of problems with a light mounted on them.


BTW the Iraqi army/police are issued Glocks and they definitely are one of the world's finest fighting forces so the Glock must be perfect. And the fact our SF guys are training them wouldn't have anything to do with the reason they have been seen with Glocks would it?
 
Problem is, Internet credentials can't be verified. Not sure who I trust, but I've owned all the guns listed (aside from the XD... They shoot ok, but the grip safety is redundant)... And any will work... But, I learned to detail strip a Glock in 2 minutes, they've always worked for me, and I shoot them well (but, I can shoot anything well if I practice enough). I don't see why anyone follows any platform with an all or nothing, dogmatic, outlook.


IT'S JUST A TOOL FOLKS!!!
 
COLOSHOOTR said:
Well you listed the unit I'm talking about and I still didn't see Glocks buy okay you all seem to know more than I do even with my personal experience.... Are you going to tell me next that USAF pilots carry Glocks too because Glock had it on their Web page and it's all over the Internet?

The funny thing is I am actually a Glock fan and at the time if writing this am no further than 3 ft away from one I still carry every now and then. The problem I have is when people come in and say x y& z carry Glock and Glock is the best there is nothing else worth a damn out there because it's not true. There are plenty of other handguns that are just as reliable and have seen just as many gunfights as Glock but for some reason they don't get as many fan boys. You all will even ignore the bad stories such as the report that delta/cag dropped the G22 because of problems with a light mounted on them.


BTW the Iraqi army/police are issued Glocks and they definitely are one of the world's finest fighting forces so the Glock must be perfect. And the fact our SF guys are training them wouldn't have anything to do with the reason they have been seen with Glocks would it?
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I'm drinking my coffee so bear with me. I have no idea what USAF pilots carry as their sidearm. I would assume it's an M9 or Sig. For all I care they could be issued hotdogs or Snickers in their holsters. USAF pilots aren't traditionally involved in the type of gunfights being discussed in this thread. Nobody calls the USAF to kill/capture HVT's…they call them if they need a ride or they want something shot with a big gun on a plane.

I have no idea your personal experience with the units I mentioned. Perhaps Springfield/Kimber/whoever had a "coupon day" and the boys all decided to try something new. What I do know is what those guys use when it matters. It's a Glock. (Honorable mention would be various tricked out 1911's but those seem to be all the more few and far between. Regiment doesn't give you the option to run what you want so you get what you get.)

I never said other pistols weren't worth a damn. I would agree that a lot of internet numbers/instances are jaded and it's hard to really get good data on pistol/weapons failures. I would disagree that any other pistol on earth has the proven track record and has been in just as many gunfights as Glock. I don't even see how one could argue that any other pistol has been in nearly the gunfights…..I'm trying to think of another pistol and I just can't (it's early sorry).

The Iraqi Army/Police are some hard hitting, snake eaten badasses. They get Glocks because they need pistol that can stand up to the abuse of all that killin. Oh and the SF guys are pissed that they're training the Iraqi's to use their new Glocks when a lot of them still have busted ass M9's in their holsters.
 
If anyone has one of those new HK VP9's I'd love to hear a review on those. Probably going to be my next pistol.
 
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COLOSHOOTR said:
Well you listed the unit I'm talking about and I still didn't see Glocks buy okay you all seem to know more than I do even with my personal experience.... Are you going to tell me next that USAF pilots carry Glocks too because Glock had it on their Web page and it's all over the Internet?

The funny thing is I am actually a Glock fan and at the time if writing this am no further than 3 ft away from one I still carry every now and then. The problem I have is when people come in and say x y& z carry Glock and Glock is the best there is nothing else worth a damn out there because it's not true. There are plenty of other handguns that are just as reliable and have seen just as many gunfights as Glock but for some reason they don't get as many fan boys. You all will even ignore the bad stories such as the report that delta/cag dropped the G22 because of problems with a light mounted on them.


BTW the Iraqi army/police are issued Glocks and they definitely are one of the world's finest fighting forces so the Glock must be perfect. And the fact our SF guys are training them wouldn't have anything to do with the reason they have been seen with Glocks would it?
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Oh so now you claim to Train with CAG or DEVGRU?

What do USAF Pilots have to do with anything? They are not shooters, nor are the SOF. They all carry the same M9 or in rare cases, the M11 (Sig).


So CAG dropped the G22................wonder which pistol they went to...........
 
Cobracutter said:
Oh so now you claim to Train with CAG or DEVGRU?

What do USAF Pilots have to do with anything? They are not shooters, nor are the SOF. They all carry the same M9 or in rare cases, the M11 (Sig).


So CAG dropped the G22................wonder which pistol they went to...........
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USAF pilots are straight operating dude. Snappin' necks and cashin' checks.
 
Now imagine this.... a SEAL Team and a USAF Fighter Sqrn walk into a bar. The universe explodes from overload of ego in one location.

This is why there is a small obscure line in the UCMJ explicitly preventing this from happening. Punishment is being detailed to the Warrior Transition Unit as the designated pecker checker.

50 years down the road old Joe here is telling his grandkids about his "greatest generation" that fought the war on terror. Somewhere between now and then, he became a SEAL Ranger Sniper Recon Diver.

Poor kid will never know his granddad looked at dicks for a living. Probably ends up gay anyway and would have been jealous his granddad was so cultural and sexually enlightened. All because being a SEAL sounds cool.
 
Rgrmike most of my comments are towards one specific person who has openly bashed everything but Glock and H&K and spread unsubstantiated rumors on other pistols based on Internet rumor. The USAF comment was a sarcastic comment stemming from Internet rumors spread by all sorts of fan boys and by Glock. I never claimed they were ninja warriors or anything but it always seems to be brought up by the pro Glock crowd when a thread like this pops up even after reputable sources have debunked the rumors years ago.

Just for fun since you mentioned not knowing any pistols with more gunfights than Glock... One would be a 1911 thanks to 100 years of service in both military and law enforcement. Also the Sig 226 has seen it's share of action across the globe. Even the M9/92f should get honorable mention as pistol involved in many gunfights maybe even more than Glock thanks to decades of military and LE service even though I'd pick a Glock or Sig over one any day. The Glock is a relatively new trend in the US special operations circles but has been in LE service for decades so I'm sure the numbers are pretty even and none, other than the 1911, would have runaway numbers over any of the ones I mentioned.

I don't claim to be SF, a SEAL, CAG or any form of military operator. That being said some of those units do regularly train with civilian law enforcement, a job I actually do for a living. That is something that is easily verified just like Frank did when he gave me access to the LE/Mil section on here. I never once stated that any of our nation's elite shooter don't carry Glocks just was trying to debunk some of the bs that Cobracutter was spewing when bad mouthing everything else.

As I have said in all my posts Glocks are fine weapons and I used to carry one on my hip at work every day. I do now carry something else that fits my hand better and runs just as good as my old Glock but some people seem to think anything else is inferior to Glock based on Internet rumor. I've heard a bit more on some of those rumors from fellow LEO's who indicated some of the reported incidents are more political rather than based on actual problems with the weapons. That goes both ways with agencies switching to Glocks from something else or away from Glock to something else.

A Google search will find you many complaints on Glock, S&W, Beretta, Sig, H&K, Kimber, Colt and we can go on and on and on till we list them all. It does not mean they are all bad. Anyone using a M&P, a XD , a 1911 or a Sig is not losing anything to a Glock if that is what they prefer and shoot well. The same goes for Glock you are not losing anything to an all metal gun like a Sig or 1911 if you carry a Glock and shoot it well. I'm done arguing with fan boys that don't want to hear any reason and think everything but Glock and H&K are crap because that's what the real operators carry. Who gives a shit what all the top trainers use or the Delta operators use because none of us on here fit into those categories. All you Glock fan boys quit crying and all you anti Glock types you quit bashing them too. Everyone just carry what you like and what you shoot well and stop crying about the size or material of the other man's gun. All quality modern handguns are plenty reliable and will serve most us well.


End of rant! I'm done with this thread...
 
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COLOSHOOTR said:
Rgrmike most of my comments are towards one specific person who has openly bashed everything but Glock and H&K and spread unsubstantiated rumors on other pistols based on Internet rumor. The USAF comment was a sarcastic comment stemming from Internet rumors spread by all sorts of fan boys and by Glock. I never claimed they were ninja warriors or anything but it always seems to be brought up by the pro Glock crowd when a thread like this pops up even after reputable sources have debunked the rumors years ago.

Just for fun since you mentioned not knowing any pistols with more gunfights than Glock... One would be a 1911 thanks to 100 years of service in both military and law enforcement. Also the Sig 226 has seen it's share of action across the globe. Even the M9/92f should get honorable mention as pistol involved in many gunfights maybe even more than Glock thanks to decades of military and LE service even though I'd pick a Glock or Sig over one any day. The Glock is a relatively new trend in the US special operations circles but has been in LE service for decades so I'm sure the numbers are pretty even and none, other than the 1911, would have runaway numbers over any of the ones I mentioned.

I don't claim to be SF, a SEAL, CAG or any form of military operator. That being said some of those units do regularly train with civilian law enforcement, a job I actually do for a living. That is something that is easily verified just like Frank did when he gave me access to the LE/Mil section on here. I never once stated that any of our nation's elite shooter don't carry Glocks just was trying to debunk some of the bs that Cobracutter was spewing when bad mouthing everything else.

As I have said in all my posts Glocks are fine weapons and I used to carry one on my hip at work every day. I do now carry something else that fits my hand better and runs just as good as my old Glock but some people seem to think anything else is inferior to Glock based on Internet rumor. I've heard a bit more on some of those rumors from fellow LEO's who indicated some of the reported incidents are more political rather than based on actual problems with the weapons. That goes both ways with agencies switching to Glocks from something else or away from Glock to something else.

A Google search will find you many complaints on Glock, S&W, Beretta, Sig, H&K, Kimber, Colt and we can go on and on and on till we list them all. It does not mean they are all bad. Anyone using a M&P, a XD , a 1911 or a Sig is not losing anything to a Glock if that is what they prefer and shoot well. The same goes for Glock you are not losing anything to an all metal gun like a Sig or 1911 if you carry a Glock and shoot it well. I'm done arguing with fan boys that don't want to hear any reason and think everything but Glock and H&K are crap because that's what the real operators carry. Who gives a shit what all the top trainers use or the Delta operators use because none of us on here fit into those categories. All you Glock fan boys quit crying and all you anti Glock types you quit bashing them too. Everyone just carry what you like and what you shoot well and stop crying about the size or material of the other man's gun. All quality modern handguns are plenty reliable and will serve most us well.


End of rant! I'm done with this thread...
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Fair enough. I would agree that there's many good modern service pistols out there and others that refuse to die. I would also agree that most guys using M&P's, XD's, Sigs etc are at no real disadvantage to those who are carrying Glocks or HK's. Time will tell on some of those models but it seems they're very good firearms. It is wise however, to study what the top level trainers, shooters, military personal etc use. They pick these firearms based on their own experiences, opinions and data that they've gathered over the years. Just like in any other profession, it's wise to look at subject matter experts in a given field and attempt to mimic their behaviors, practices etc.
 
EddieNFL said:
At least as much as all the other "expert" testimony we've read here.
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At least. I admire Mr. Miculek for his highly polished skills - no matter what he's shooting. It also demonstrates that everyone is different, everyone has their preferences, everyone has their opinions, and one size does not fit all.
There's no right or wrong, just what works best for the given individual and their shooting purpose.
 
Mr. Miculek is not really a good example because he's biased. We all know he's the cream of the crop but if his long sleeve shirt said Springfield Xd or Ruger then that's what he would say is best. Glocks and 1911's have the tenure others don't but that time on the battlefield is slowly being pushed to the side because the newcomers are proving their reliability. Its pretty much inevitable that sooner than later most if not all of these top gun manufacturers will be just about even in reliability and picking one over the other wont guarantee saving your life or allowing your death. I personally don't hate Glocks, I love Glocks, I love my M&P's and my H&K P30. Never shot a Sig but yearn for the opportunity to do so and.......now go easy on me fellas....promise?....never shot a 1911 but am dying to do so as well. It's really hard to compare the service record of two things or even three or four when theres longevity in the field compared to being a newbie. Like I said though, it's only a matter of time until most of these of companies are neck and neck with each other and choosing one over the other wont make a difference. Just my opinion.


PS: If all the hiders got together in a bar, how big of a bar fight do you think would happen once everybody started getting shithoused and these types of discussions came up? Lol. I'm guessing it would be like the wild west.
 
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That would be the funniest dick measuring contest ever, good old fashion Donnybrook never was a bad thing. Shank would be trying to pull a fat bitch, Cobracutter would be fighting 6 guys at once, all the fire fighters would make fun of the cops and frank would be asking what the fuck happened.

Rad

And then the $50,000 bar tab would show up
 
Yeah this is funny shit!!! My dad can whip your dad!! Chevys rock, fords suck, ford is the best, Chevy sucks. Etc etc etc. I personally like glocks. I don't own them because this person or that person uses them. I shoot well with them, they are affordable, they go bang every tim and I trust my life as well as my family's life with them. Are they the best? Who the hell knows the answer to that. The best according to who? How do u measure what's the best? Compared to what? They are a tool for me and that is it. They are ugly but work. Great thing about all this, you can buy whatever the hell you want. Lots of good pistols out there that shoot well and are reliable.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
As a gun that I depend on daily... I LOVE Glock.

As a collector piece, I LOVE my 1911's.

Shot 1911's most of my professional and personal life. Love them. They are beautiful. Have many. My favorite is my ivory-gripped Gold Cup that I've carried... forever. I wore the finish off. It goes bang 'almost' all the time. It hits what I want hit... every time.

But when it comes to going 'bang' EVERY time. My duty Glock (and my off duty-Glocks) are just utterly reliable pieces of tactical Tupperware. I've been to schools where the 1911's that I love... were constantly being serviced. Glocks just ran as reliable as gravity. Ugly... molded... un-collectible. All the above. But reliable and accurate 'out-of-the-box'? Yes. Like nothing else I've ever seen.

Hate Glocks? Never. Hate the idea of collecting Glocks? You bet. I love them for utility. Hate them as collector pieces.

Just my two percent of a dollar. YMMV, offer not valid in Guam, etc.

Cheers,

Sirhr

PS. Always shot a Hi-Power as-well-as or better-than a 1911. Love my Belgian Hi Power. But it's not a Gold Cup. Even if it is probably better in every way, including ergonomics. Better is in the eye of the shooter, isn't it?
 
Dinosaur Jr said:
And I still wouldn't run out to blindly buy whatever is in his hand or on his shirt...
Click to expand...

Agreed, I own several Smiths, but they're not my first choice, but I'm even less inclined to blindly buy whatever someone with a cool user name has a stiffy for.
 
I own both HK and Glock handguns but I prefer the Glock... but also have a Kahr P380 for a micro pistol (picky feeder but likes hornady critical defense ammo) and am looking hard at a Kahr PM9

ALL of these guns work if you know which self defense ammo will work RELIABLY in them

KISS (keep it simple stupid) that is why the Glock 19 is the most popular handgun in the world... Glock Perfection
 
I never really cared for em. Felt wrong in my hand, didn't like the sites, didn't like the feel of the trigger.

Then I shot a combat focus shooting class with the wife's 19. Trigger work for the application, never used the sights, didn't feel wrong in the hand when drawing from the holster and presenting, no malfunctions, shots landed in the effective area.

I'll be damned, now I am a fan.
 
I started with 1911’s went to a dig p226(couldn’t like it no matter how much I tried) went to a Springfield XD still didn’t get into it then I picked up a gen 3 glock 19 from a guy on here a few years ago that had been used and shot who knows how much and I’ve shot glocks since in IDPA, 3 gun and Steele.
I always laugh when I here people tell me they can’t shoot glocks because the grip angle makes their natural point of aim goes nose up but it’s not the grip angle it’s the hump on the back side of the grip I’m 99% sure. Hell it was the same for me so I bought a set of the $20 grip force adapters and they extend the bevertail and push the end of the muzzle back down as it sits in your hands problem solved. Now the Trigger, well I’ll admit isn’t great compared to a good 1911 but there are plenty of options available that greatly improve it or replace the factory. And sights are cheap and you have more choices than you could want for any gun. Accuracy wise, a stock glock 19 will shoot a full size ipsc target at 100 yards easy with consistency with bulk Ammo. Seen it and done it plenty of training days. Hell I’ve seen a g26 do 2 out of 4 at 115 yards on ipsc target.
 
I don't like Glock, he's an asshole, but he makes good pistols.


I don't like the fact they killed S&W and forced a great American institution to sell out to the Cliton's.
 
I own a Glock 22, have a lone wolf 40-9mm conversion and a storm lake 357 sig. barrel as well. I'm about to buy a second one Glock 20 10mm. I'll also buy a conversion 45 acp conversion barrel as well.
I have to say I don't really like stock glocks. Only mod i've made to my 22 is a mepro fiber optic/tritium green dot sight with outer ring that replaces your rear sight. Its better than stock and cheaper than a real red dot sight. Next will be the trigger and metal mag well and magazine floor plate from killer innovations when they release their stuff this winter. I might stipple the frame, I mean have someone reputable do it. Maybe some addition serration slide.

The clock is just a no frills, gun that works(reliable&inexpensive). I always say its a ford truck of pistols. When there are Ferrari's, Porsche's and Lambo's (sexy & expensive)out their.
 
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Forrest84 said:
I always laugh when I here people tell me they can’t shoot glocks because the grip angle makes their natural point of aim goes nose up but it’s not the grip angle it’s the hump on the back side of the grip I’m 99% sure.
Click to expand...

Yeah, same here when I hear guys say the 1911 is too big and heavy to carry. My wife once heard someone tell me that. She pointed at her purse and snickered at the guy. Must be a generational thing.

 
I don't like Glocks because they don't have DS/SA triggers.

I don't like Glocks because their grip angle/hump/whatever you want to call it won't let the gun sit right in my hand.

Funny how S&W wheelguns and CZ 75s don't have either of those two problems.
 
I used to carry an M&P. Never had a single malfunction and it felt better in the hand than the Glock.
I also carried a commander sized 1911 for quite a while. I love the way it feels in the hand but decided to go with higher capacity. By the way, it is a Philippine made 1911 and I have NEVER had it malfunction with factory ammo. Some bad handloads, yes. That was my fault.
Now I carry a CZ P09. I have never had a single malfunction in it either, and it just feels right. it points naturally and shoots phenomenally.
As a matter of fact, I am not aware of ANY, modern, quality polymer firearm that noted for unreliability.
XD's run, glocks run, M&P's run, CZ's run, Walthers run, Sigs run.
Hell, I have a taurus 24/7 Pro that I have shot in matches, shot in qualifications, let other folks shoot in matches and it has never had a single malfunction.
Reliability is important, they have figured out ramp angles, feeding angles and magazines a long time ago.
There are some fringe manufacturers that build guns that have issues, but I am talking about companies that try to get Police contracts.

Glock perfection?
If it was perfect to begin with, why are there 5 generations (modifications)?
 
My G21 Slim Frame fits my hand better than any of my HKs and Sigs. The grip is just so dam comfortable. And it shoots very well. The only reason I don't carry it more is because its ugly.
 
I know some guys swear by them, but for the three different ones I tried, all in different calibers, they all felt wrong in my hand. Not comfortable and it didn't feel to have a natural point of aim like I get with my Sigs or 1911.
 
I shot a few (17s, 21s, 23s) in the late-80s and early-to-mid-90s and couldn't get comfortable, since I have been shooting 1911s and HS Model 106s competitively since I was 12 in the early 70s. I even bought a Sig P226 .40 Elite Dark in 2011 that I ended up putting about 500 rounds thru trying to get comfortable. Ended up giving it away as a Christmas gift. Since then, I have been able to get quite accustomed to a BHP clone. Figures that it's another John Browning design.

The newer Gen 4 Glocks with different backstraps and the ability to get a high grip has had me wrapping my hands around them at local gun shops. Front finger grooves suck for my fingers, though. Put my hands around a couple that have been stippled and had the grooves sanded off and finally felt like it was something I could work with. Looking at picking up a Gen 4 or 5 G19 now. Try it out.
 
By far the worst thing is the reliability... I never get to work on malfunctions anymore which is really degrading my ability to react quickly when it happens.

Case in point, I recently competed in a run and gun and 10 yards into it my glock got packed with dirt! That stupid thing ran perfectly for the whole course...

Luckily I recently bought another highly regarded brand of pistol and it gave me lots more malfunction practice. Even had to send it back to the factory to have them help with it.

#glockproblems
 
Not my thing. Besides the g42 they don't feel comfortable, I naturally point them high, the egros don't work as well as many other handguns do for me, plastic sights are a turnoff, and the trigger isn't anything special. They work, but when it's my money, I'd rather spend $50 more on a hk that doesn't need any mods, then buy the generic plastic handgun and have to change half of it out it to get what works for me.
 
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My main complaint is the slide release... not critical and I can work with it, but not as simple as the HK.
 
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