The next new cartridge I may get into will be either 22 ARC or 400 Legend. Do I need either? No. They look interesting on paper, though
- Thread starter KCode
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Me, Absolutely not...the 6 mm ARC is a better choice and will actually make it to 1000 yds, easily, in an 18" barrel.
My 18" AR gas gun, with 6 mm ARC Proof barrel runs 108 eldm at 2667 fps .536 BC or the 110 gr Atip .604 BC.
My 18" AR gas gun, with 6 mm ARC Proof barrel runs 108 eldm at 2667 fps .536 BC or the 110 gr Atip .604 BC.
I've never shot past 300 yards. So Lord knows if I even possess the skills to reach 1000 yards. But my son and I are joining a gun club that has a 1000 yard range and even a separate 1 mile range.
I would love to get into other calibers if it was 2013 again and powder was cheap and plentiful and primers were so cheap you took them for granted. I remember bricks of 1000 primers for $25.
I read these posts, get all excited and then I remember - I live at sea level, basically breathing water and shooting bullets into a pool, while you can just reach an arm up to adjust Musk’s Starlink satellites for better signal.
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If you practice, 1000yds isn't that hard, even the 5.56 or 223 can do it with fast twist barrels and heavier bullets on a fairly calm day. The smaller calibers and cases are more economical, so you can practice more. But a mile is a different, and more powder and bullet weight, and more expensive components are used to be somewhat consistent....why I really like the small cased 6mms at 1000yds and under, especially in bolt guns, they are extremely accurate, low recoil, lower costs, and really fun to shoot. I shot the 6 dasher, 110 SMK, at 3085 fps a few months back at 857 yd steel, it wasn't a challenge, a child could do it.
Yep the Grendel is cool but not nearly as impressive as LRRP makes it out to be. The 6arc/6Grendel variants smoke the 6.5G at everything but shorter range hunting and even then it's basically a draw.
You absolutely can't get the 6mm like performance with 100-107s in the 6.5. 6mm pushes a much higher BC bullet(same weight obviously) Then when you use a 120-130g 6.5 it's slow as crap and it still gets pushed around in the wind since it's in the air for so long at extreme altitude.
I really like my Lilja barreled Grendel but it can't keep up with the 6mm past 500yds.
I would not. In fact I sold mine for this reason.
The fact is the 6.5G does not have enough ass to be able to push high BC bullets fast enough. So you will either need to run lower bc bullets faster or 130 class slow. Forget the 144/153s. So you are essentially losing out on pretty much all the good 6.5 projos with the exception of the 130 berger AR hybrid. The powder choices arent great and the good shit is hard to find.
6 ARC will push a 105/109 hybrid right under 2800fps. It will have less recoil, higher BC, shoot flatter, have better wind deflection and much greater first round hit out past 800. You can also use better powders suited to the burn rate with 6 arc that are easier to find.
The 6 ARC has made the 6.5G obsolete IMO. Its just a much more efficient round when you look at the entire package.
The fact is the 6.5G does not have enough ass to be able to push high BC bullets fast enough. So you will either need to run lower bc bullets faster or 130 class slow. Forget the 144/153s. So you are essentially losing out on pretty much all the good 6.5 projos with the exception of the 130 berger AR hybrid. The powder choices arent great and the good shit is hard to find.
6 ARC will push a 105/109 hybrid right under 2800fps. It will have less recoil, higher BC, shoot flatter, have better wind deflection and much greater first round hit out past 800. You can also use better powders suited to the burn rate with 6 arc that are easier to find.
The 6 ARC has made the 6.5G obsolete IMO. Its just a much more efficient round when you look at the entire package.
It doesn't take any skill to shoot at 1k. If you can shoot accurate 100 yard groups you can shoot 1k with ease. A ballistic calc does all the work and all you need to do is read wind. As long as you have a cartridge suited to the task, and a reasonable sized target, its cake. Shouldn't take more than 2-3 rounds to walk on target if you cant call wind anyway.
I don't know why people make it seem like its so much harder than it is.
Meh, I was in the 6.8 game and got out years ago because while it worked well for hunting 0-300 yards I felt it really lacking past that.
6 Arc is the way.
You bastards...Now I'm thinking 6 ARC
Curious what 6.5 Grendel @ say 110gr would do damage wise at 300 yards vs 6 ARC.
Would I do 6.5 Grendel again? Maybe. I have two, and the costs associated with setup aren't there obviously.
I think it is a solid option in a small frame AR where hunting is limited to 250 or less...so basically any woods hunting. Plenty of good hunting bullet options too. Up close hunting I think the Grendel offers a little more forgiveness than it's smaller offspring...shooting steel at distance however, and it will fall behind. If targets are your primary thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense to jump into a Grendel these days.
In my little world, I don't have a place for the .243 or .224 variants of the Grendel. I have a lot of < 200 yard hunting spots, and can shoot out to 750 or so at steel. Could either of those other variants work? Absolutely, but it'd be like building a .308, 7mm-08, and .260 hunting rifles all on the same action and stock. At some point the overlap isn't worth the space taken up in the safe.
I think it is a solid option in a small frame AR where hunting is limited to 250 or less...so basically any woods hunting. Plenty of good hunting bullet options too. Up close hunting I think the Grendel offers a little more forgiveness than it's smaller offspring...shooting steel at distance however, and it will fall behind. If targets are your primary thing, it doesn't make a lot of sense to jump into a Grendel these days.
In my little world, I don't have a place for the .243 or .224 variants of the Grendel. I have a lot of < 200 yard hunting spots, and can shoot out to 750 or so at steel. Could either of those other variants work? Absolutely, but it'd be like building a .308, 7mm-08, and .260 hunting rifles all on the same action and stock. At some point the overlap isn't worth the space taken up in the safe.
I don’t know anything about this stuff, but I believe @LRRPF52 ’s main argument for Grendel is using it out of short barrels. He is saying a short handy 10.5”/12” suppressed Grendel shooting light bullets is roughly equivalent to an 18” 6mm, not that Grendel is superior to an optimized (i.e. long 20”+ barrel) 6mm.
At least that’s what I’m reading. I have zero experience here, just parsing @LRRPF52 ’s posts.
He’s really focused on how short the package is with a suppressor attached.
Here he’s talking about how the Grendel’s lower recoil allows a better sight picture vs larger calibers.
And here he seems to say that Grendel heavier bullets make louder impacts on steel than 6mm bullets?
At least that’s what I’m reading. I have zero experience here, just parsing @LRRPF52 ’s posts.
I am not saying he’s right. Or wrong.
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20" 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC...
I am running 2, 18" Proof barrels in ARs, all loads, are handloads with Leverevolution.
I polish all barrels in a fixture, before installing them no matter who makes the barrel, and do no barrel break in. Just go out and shoot as many as ya want, then go home and clean.
The 6mm ARC is an accurate cartridge in the AR platform, with Proof barrels I own, I like the heavier bullets 107, 108, & 110 gr. The Berger 108 is an excellent performer, for tiny groups.
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Am on the same boat here but for a bolt gun. The new RA gen 2 will be coming out with some interesting chambers. I owned a gen 1 6.5 Grendel before and I liked it. The 22 arc is interesting as well.
Can't imagine it would be much different. My brother has taken a number of antelope and mule deer with 6 arc though and it's done fantastic.
Could you explain to me how a 6mm arc has more pressure than a 6.5 Grendel.
Yea that doesn't make much sense to me either. 6 ARC case is essentially a necked down 6.5G. 6MM will take less energy to unseat bullet so all things being equal, it will have LESS pressure.
Sounds like a component/powder issue.
So it will make it into a 9mm? For what? Waste of money and time. You can shoot sub 9mm out of a carbine for 1/3 the cost.
I'm not who you asked or if this is what he meant, but for identical starting chamber pressure, the pressure at the gas port will be higher with a smaller bore. Ideal Gas Law.
Pressure at the port will be higher because you have a similar amount of powder expanding in a smaller diameter bore.
Assuming you use the same powder, which you probably won't correct?
Yes, assuming that, which may or may not be the case. I've had good luck with both cartridges with 8208, CFE223 and Leverevolution.
I love my 6 ARC. I have not shot or played with the 6.5G but my buddy and I shot our 6ARC against his large frame AR in 308. Velocity was about the same with his 185 Jug handloads from a 22" Criterion 308 against 20" Proof ARC with the 108 Hornady box ammo (2650 ish). The ARC had less drop, close but less and much less drift in the wind. The Federal 175 load was worse but its going slower and lower BC.
All of that in a lighter package with less recoil. It was impressive doing a real world test at the spot we shoot at. What else was impressive was the consistency between lots of Hornady ammo and the Proof barrels. They were about a year apart in time passed that they had been purchased. Same velocity numbers between the two rifles with the same SD.
All of that in a lighter package with less recoil. It was impressive doing a real world test at the spot we shoot at. What else was impressive was the consistency between lots of Hornady ammo and the Proof barrels. They were about a year apart in time passed that they had been purchased. Same velocity numbers between the two rifles with the same SD.
Man I would love to find some 8208. I haven't seen it for almost 3 years now.
6 ARC is a fantastic round and will only get more popular. There are ALOT of guys who are going to shoot gas gun in PRS with the 6 arc.
6 ARC is a fantastic round and will only get more popular. There are ALOT of guys who are going to shoot gas gun in PRS with the 6 arc.
Nevermind the fact that no off the shelf barrel would even stabilize it LOL.
Just walked into my LGS the other day and saw 6lbs of it. I'm not ready to pay $80 per just yet, but it's encouraging seeing it in the wild.
Wheather or not you can get basically yhe same performance depends on how far you shooting.
Seeing it go for $200/pound on gunbroker, i would have snatched that up. Its my favorite .223 precision powder by far.
Sure I'd agree with that. Varmints under 500 yeah but in the context of long range which most of his post was no. Then you can go with a 58-70g in the arc and the 6 wins again for light and fast.
This is what I was going for, more or less. I use XBR for my grendel and for my practice 6 BRA loads too. 6 ARC is significantly more overbore than a grendel. The gas pressure impulse is going to be a bit different between the two, and a slower powder is likely pushing gas all over the place in the upper unless the gas port hole is well planned out.
I don't have an ARC, so I don't know all the details of the guys who've talked to me about it, just that it's been a PITA for them to tune the gas system. Like I said, I wouldn't go with a cheapie barrel from a manufacturer who doesn't shoot much ARC. Go with premium barrels.
Remember, even if the Grendel doesn't work out for you (I can't imagine it won't), same brass, same bolt, same mags as the ARC. Pull the barrel, sell it for $120, get an ARC barrel and rock on.
I was going to do my final Grendel build as an ARC instead, but reading about how dirty the ARC is and how finicky it can be with system length, etc...nah. The Grendel does everything I need it to do and does it well.
@LRRPF52 is the reason his Grendels are impressive. Indian, not the arrow. Dude is a wealth of knowledge and experience, not just on the Grendel but the AR platform on the whole.
^^This^^ I found him on the Grendel forum years ago and he is a major reason why I built mine. I'm in Kali, no suppressors (yet), so mine has a 24" Bartlein.
Subsonic...the 9mm luger beats the 6.5 Grendel up close, .355" hole & more weight available ..with 185 gr bullets out of tbe AR platform. I ran them in a 10" barrel before changing all the pistols to rifles. The 155 gr to 1200 fps if ya want, and 165 9mm available too...cases are free, or almost, bullets cheap, powder cheap...it's a pretty good sub round up close...easily extended to 200 yds with supers...
High velocity over 2600 fps in 9mm Luger 16" barrel, but sheds velocity fast. Plus many of the bullets are made to expand at 9mm velocities...
Making the 9 mm a pretty good sub round, at 50 yds or so. No problem with supers hitting steel at 200 yds, but energy is way down.
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Jumping into this thread because I have been considering 6.5G as well.
Purpose would be long range shooting and potentially hunting mule deer.
I've gotten pretty decent at slapping steel at long range with a 5.56, but the lack of power really limits the fun factor for me. I have to have my earpro turned all the way up and even then its kinda hard to hear hits at 500M. Its also difficult to spot misses at 500M. Further than that exacerbates these issues. It also doesn't really move the steel at all, which I find unsatisfying.
I recently got a Rogue in .308 thinking that would be the Answer. I love how it slaps the steel, and I love how I can see the dirt thrown up from misses. I've only shot it out to 500M but have no doubt it will carry those strengths out to longer distances. The thing is I cannot recover from recoil quite fast enough to see my hits, and while I can see the dust of misses after I recover from recoil, its not the same thing as actually seeing the impact as it happens as I can with my 5.56.
So what I am looking for is a platform that will give me the energy to BANG the steel out to as long a distance as possible, have the killing power for mule deer at as long a range as possible, but have controlled enough recoil that I can see my hits as they impact. Thinking of 6arc, 6.5G, or 6.5CM. I like the challenge so I don't think I really care about the 6arc or 6.5CM shooting flatter or doing better vs wind. I do like the idea of a significantly longer maximum range with the 6.5CM, but not sure I'll ever really be shooting beyond the max range of 6.5G so that may not really matter much.
Is 6.5G substantially better than, say, 6ARC, when it comes to the amount of dirt thrown up from misses? Or on the sound/impact on steel at distance? I wouldn't think there would be any significant difference as were talking about 10-15% more mass and .02" more diameter, with about the same energy on target. For that matter, will the 6.5G or 6arc leave me disappointed in this area compared to the 6.5CM? How does 6.5CM compare to .308?
Looking at 6.5G the ammo prices are pretty reasonable. No cheap wolf like there used to be, but Hornady ELD-M's are $1.20 shipped, which is about the same as similar quality .308. There is some .308 "match" ammo that is cheaper, but its likely lower quality as well, and using less efficient SMK style bullets. 6ARC and 6.5CM are similar to 6.5G in match ammo prices, though they don't have many cheaper ball options.
Purpose would be long range shooting and potentially hunting mule deer.
I've gotten pretty decent at slapping steel at long range with a 5.56, but the lack of power really limits the fun factor for me. I have to have my earpro turned all the way up and even then its kinda hard to hear hits at 500M. Its also difficult to spot misses at 500M. Further than that exacerbates these issues. It also doesn't really move the steel at all, which I find unsatisfying.
I recently got a Rogue in .308 thinking that would be the Answer. I love how it slaps the steel, and I love how I can see the dirt thrown up from misses. I've only shot it out to 500M but have no doubt it will carry those strengths out to longer distances. The thing is I cannot recover from recoil quite fast enough to see my hits, and while I can see the dust of misses after I recover from recoil, its not the same thing as actually seeing the impact as it happens as I can with my 5.56.
So what I am looking for is a platform that will give me the energy to BANG the steel out to as long a distance as possible, have the killing power for mule deer at as long a range as possible, but have controlled enough recoil that I can see my hits as they impact. Thinking of 6arc, 6.5G, or 6.5CM. I like the challenge so I don't think I really care about the 6arc or 6.5CM shooting flatter or doing better vs wind. I do like the idea of a significantly longer maximum range with the 6.5CM, but not sure I'll ever really be shooting beyond the max range of 6.5G so that may not really matter much.
Is 6.5G substantially better than, say, 6ARC, when it comes to the amount of dirt thrown up from misses? Or on the sound/impact on steel at distance? I wouldn't think there would be any significant difference as were talking about 10-15% more mass and .02" more diameter, with about the same energy on target. For that matter, will the 6.5G or 6arc leave me disappointed in this area compared to the 6.5CM? How does 6.5CM compare to .308?
Looking at 6.5G the ammo prices are pretty reasonable. No cheap wolf like there used to be, but Hornady ELD-M's are $1.20 shipped, which is about the same as similar quality .308. There is some .308 "match" ammo that is cheaper, but its likely lower quality as well, and using less efficient SMK style bullets. 6ARC and 6.5CM are similar to 6.5G in match ammo prices, though they don't have many cheaper ball options.
Shooting them back to back on the same day with the wind blowing the same direction, slight edge to the 6.5.
Slight.
Mine wasn't hard to tune.{Rainer ultramatch} I have noticed that 4166 with 90TGK wont run on the same gas setting as the loads for all my other powders. I have used Varget, 4166, 8208, and MP501 {kind of like 2520} with 105 Nosler, 105 Hornady, 106 Midway blem, 90TKG, 95SST, and 65 VMAX.
6.5 Grendel’s an awesome round, but my answer is no.
I agonized between 6.8 and 6.5G several years ago when I was looking for an intermediate hunting round to use on my ARs, and eventually settled on the 6.8 mostly due to timing and a friend’s desire to buy a ton of 6.8 ammo from a guy who was selling his collection…I went in halfsies with him and the choice was made. LoL
Love that 6.8 round in SPC-2 chambering, and I’m far too heavily invested in that now to switch, but if I was starting from scratch today, I’d almost certainly go 6 ARC.
YMMV
I agonized between 6.8 and 6.5G several years ago when I was looking for an intermediate hunting round to use on my ARs, and eventually settled on the 6.8 mostly due to timing and a friend’s desire to buy a ton of 6.8 ammo from a guy who was selling his collection…I went in halfsies with him and the choice was made. LoL
Love that 6.8 round in SPC-2 chambering, and I’m far too heavily invested in that now to switch, but if I was starting from scratch today, I’d almost certainly go 6 ARC.
YMMV
The 6.5 grendel significantly better ballistics and range than 556 with the same size platform. Only cons is cost and availability of ammo and parts.
I’ll take a slightly more reasonable approach to this whole argument, as there is no point arguing the merits of either caliber, as they’re both worthy in sensible, real world applications.
My whole reasoning behind Grendel, and as an early adopter of the Grendel and owner of multiple other 6.5 platforms, is about managing what have been limited resources in the supply chain. I consolidated my rifles, bullet and brass inventory to address only 6.5 and .224 calibers.
If I shot a multiple of 6mm platforms, ie. 6GT, 6CM, 6 Dasher, etc or others, I’d likely pick a 6ARC for an AR15 build. However, I went Grendel long before the emergence of all the other 6mm choices and haven’t looked back for a minute. Grendels I’ve built handle everything I want out of them for my applications, and if not, 6.5x47 or CM are at the ready.
For me, it’s been about careful and selective resource management. Pick your dog, but little reason to fight about it.
My whole reasoning behind Grendel, and as an early adopter of the Grendel and owner of multiple other 6.5 platforms, is about managing what have been limited resources in the supply chain. I consolidated my rifles, bullet and brass inventory to address only 6.5 and .224 calibers.
If I shot a multiple of 6mm platforms, ie. 6GT, 6CM, 6 Dasher, etc or others, I’d likely pick a 6ARC for an AR15 build. However, I went Grendel long before the emergence of all the other 6mm choices and haven’t looked back for a minute. Grendels I’ve built handle everything I want out of them for my applications, and if not, 6.5x47 or CM are at the ready.
For me, it’s been about careful and selective resource management. Pick your dog, but little reason to fight about it.
I would not buy a 6.5 Grendel now. I have one and that upper just gathers dust. I always feel like I am lobbing mortar rounds down range. I would get 6 ARC today if I wanted another option for a small frame AR.
I am interested in the new line of "Varmint-Target" bullets from Hornady - that might reinvigorate my 6.5G.
I am interested in the new line of "Varmint-Target" bullets from Hornady - that might reinvigorate my 6.5G.
Same thought process…already had a 260 rem with projectiles and I needed something better than my 300BO for deer at extended distance (2 to 400 yds). 129ABLR is very effective on deer. Yes not that fast out of a grendel, but great BC and expands down to 1300’/s.
If I wanted to go 1000 yds neither Grendel or 6ARC get me excited for that application.
