Would you get into 6.5 Grendel in 2024?

[Tictacticaltimmy]

So other than target shooting at range, does the 6 ARC serve any other purpose? Just watched a video of some hogs being hunted with the 6 ARC and every hog that wasn't head shot had to be followed up twice and three times before they went down. Not sure how much better 6.5 Grendel would do but.

This is the line of thinking I seem to be converging on. When 6ARC came out it seemed like a substantial on paper improvement to the Grendel. However, with a little more experience shooting long range, my feeling is that if I really wanted to shoot longer than the max range of the Grendel, neither cartridge would be sufficient. If I'm shooting 700M+ I am investing a lot of time into planning and setup in finding a spot, setting up targets, driving down to check targets, packing everything up. If I'm going to do all that I want something that hits with authority at that distance and neither of these, or any other, intermediate cartridges seem to accomplish that.

For both of these cartridges that distance is well beyond their effective hunting distance, and the heavier bullets of the Grendel likely have about the same effective hunting range as the lighter faster bullets of the ARC.

That leaves the ARC with one big on paper advantage: flatter trajectory and less wind drift at moderate distances, including the longer end of potential hunting distances. That is certainly a good thing, but I don't think its that big a deal, and I actually really like how the Grendel holds match up pretty close to .308 for training crossover.

The big advantage I see to the Grendel is ammo selection and availability. Ammo is cheaper than 6ARC right now, though the difference with match ammo is pretty small. If the war in Ukraine ends I imagine we will see cheap Wolf again and PSA is supposed to be coming out with 6.5 Grendel ammo at some point. If PSA does that and it is priced similar to their other offerings, that will be a huge boon to the versatility of a Grendel compared to an ARC. I could see them coming out with 6ARC ammo as well but probably just match loads and not cheaper FMJ, and not until after they are producing Grendel.

 

[TwoRs]

Tag

 

[45-90]

The grindel matches up pretty close to the 308?
Not even close to the 308 with something other then anemic 70 yr old poor BC 168 SMK which everything seemed to beat, and most cite when they want to bost about the latest new cartridge. There are many new 308 bullets that have higher BCs with new powders.
My 16" AR 10 6lb 3 oz lbs 308 runs 168 eldm .523 BC to 2752 fps with excellent groups.
208 at 2442 fps .691 BC out of the mag
Various match 155 grs running velocities 2820 to 2900 fps. That is just a light weight AR 10, 308 Win with 16" barrel, just "modernized" up, with handloads, using the same bullets used in the 6.5 grendel and 6 mm ARC, in Hornadys ELDM category, and 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy for hunting, available in 16" 308 AR.
The 30" bolt 308 2856 fps with 200 gr SMK .715 BC 7.34 mils to 1000 yds. #1 rifle #1 load.
I have 2 big 300 mags, in 300 WM and 300 RUM, 6.5 CM, 6 ARC, and a host of others. So I'm familiar with what they will do, when handloaded.

 

[ARShooter91]

Yep can't compare the old bullets in the 308 to the best available to the Grendel case lol. My 20" Tikka with factory 185g GMM is a lot more forgiving than my 123g eld hand loads even at 7-800. The Grendel has more "ah just off the edge of the plate" than 308. Same with 308 to 6.5creed.

 

[KCode]

The grindel matches up pretty close to the 308?
Not even close to the 308 with something other then anemic 70 yr old poor BC 168 SMK which everything seemed to beat, and most cite when they want to bost about the latest new cartridge. There are many new 308 bullets that have higher BCs with new powders.
My 16" AR 10 6lb 3 oz lbs 308 runs 168 eldm .523 BC to 2752 fps with excellent groups.
208 at 2442 fps .691 BC out of the mag
Various match 155 grs running velocities 2820 to 2900 fps. That is just a light weight AR 10, 308 Win with 16" barrel, just "modernized" up, with handloads, using the same bullets used in the 6.5 grendel and 6 mm ARC, in Hornadys ELDM category, and 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy for hunting, available in 16" 308 AR.
The 30" bolt 308 2856 fps with 200 gr SMK .715 BC 7.34 mils to 1000 yds. #1 rifle #1 load.
I have 2 big 300 mags, in 300 WM and 300 RUM, 6.5 CM, 6 ARC, and a host of others. So I'm familiar with what they will do, when handloaded.

Kinda not worth talking about honestly seeing as how one is an AR15 and the other a large frame AR. Obviously 308 > 6.5G though I'd imagine.

Now 6.5CM seems closer to 308.

 

[ARShooter91]

Kinda not worth talking about honestly seeing as how one is an AR15 and the other a large frame AR. Obviously 308 > 6.5G though I'd imagine.

Now 6.5CM seems closer to 308.

Certainly. Plus it's harder to spot your own shots and the full size rounds heat up a barrel much faster than the 30g PPC cases.

My point is that it's touted that the Grendel matches 308 ballistics with less energy. That's only the case if cherry picking bullets. Use the best of both and the gap is still there. Now the 6arc does match the drift of the 308 and shoots flatter to boot.

 

[45-90]

I didn't bring up the comparison the 6.5 Grendel vs the 308,...others do that.
As for the 6mm ARC my 16" 308 AR 10 shoots 168 ELDM 2756 fps .523 BC.
My 18" AR 15 shoots the 108 ELDM .536 BC at 2650 fps with 2" More barrel.
So the 308 would have a slight advantage with these two bullets from Hornady, in trajectory.
According to JBM Ballistics the actual figures are: 308 16" 1000yds 33.5 moa drop 88.5 drift
6 ARC 18" 1000yds 36.1 moa drop 90.7 drift.
So fact is the 308 beats the 6 ARC with 2" shorter barrel. With similar bullets and maximum effort handloads.
If I load the 18" AR 10 with 200 gr SMK .715 BC bobsled single load it runs 2673 fps, in AR 10 as shown...here my 6mm ARC is not even close in trajectory.
I am a fan of the 6 mm ARC and formed 1200 rds of brass before it became available, 250 were from grendel basic a .430" dia straight wall necked to 6 mm ARC, a lot of work, no head stamp.
The way I load both, the 308 has the advantage, and a big advantage in the heavier bullets and fast twist ...like a 16" AR shooting 225s .777 BC at 2442 fps.
But I also enjoy shooting both of my 6 mm ARCs in ARs its a great little round.
But I have no use for a 6.5 grendel...except for brass. But that doesn’t mean ya can't love yours. ..I always just skipped that one, and went straight to the 6.5 CM.
"Everything is better than the 308Win", that is standard line, but I have 8 rifles in 308 Win. and 30 yrs of experience, & experimenting with it. And it will shoot accurately way past 1000 yds if set up properly, before the big 300 mags are employed. I like those too....but for me...the Grendel, not so much...and I even have the discarded 224 Valkyrie.

 

[KCode]

AGAIN we are comparing a AR15 to a large frame AR. The point is about like comparing a 38 Special revolver to a 357 Magnum and bragging about the 357 Magnum doing better.

 

[Jsp556]

AGAIN we are comparing a AR15 to a large frame AR. The point is about like comparing a 38 Special revolver to a 357 Magnum and bragging about the 357 Magnum doing better.

Except both 38 special and 357 can be bought in small frame revolvers.

 

[KCode]

Except both 38 special and 357 can be bought in small frame revolvers.

Well then it's like comparing 9mm to 357 Magnu...YOUKNOWWHATIMEANT

 

[45-90]

AGAIN we are comparing a AR15 to a large frame AR. The point is about like comparing a 38 Special revolver to a 357 Magnum and bragging about the 357 Magnum doing better.

Nope comparing autoloading cartridge to autoloading cartridge, as so many have said everything beats the 308, I just pointed out that factually that's false when comparred to equal bullet styles from the same manufacturer. I did not start that argument...just pointed out the facts of the complaint. Cartridge to cartridge...it obviously already had the large frame 308 AR vs small frame cartridges 6 mm ARC & 6.5 Grendel in the argument as they insisted a better trajectory with the small frame calibers, usually against the outdated 168 SMK. Comparing one of the 308s worst bullets, to their new Hornady ELDM. An unfair comparison of a 70 yr old match bullet against the latest developments.
Comparing ELDM to ELDM a different trajectory emerges, showinf the 308 to be better.
So large frame vs small is a fallacy of thought and has nothing to do with the trajectory discussion, as everyone already knows the frame size difference, when they make the erroneous claims, as pointed out, equal bullet types and maximum effort from both cartridges changes the outcome. Just the facts...

 

[Tictacticaltimmy]

The reason I was comparing .308 175smk to 6.5G ELD-M is based on those two rounds being comparably priced right now. .308 ELDM is about $.5/rd more expensive than Grendel ELDM.

If you are a handloader this may be a moot point, but for me ammo cost is one of the biggest drivers of cartridge selection.

 

[JS8588]

Well then it's like comparing 9mm to 357 Magnu...YOUKNOWWHATIMEANT

Comparing 10mm to 41 Magnum. I think that's what you were going for.

Anyway, if you're just punching holes in paper, either will do. The ARC is probably a little better ballistically. The Grendel is a little less expensive and a little more available.

The Grendel is a bit more reliable and the better choice on Game.

If the Government were paying my Ammo bill, I might choose the ARC. Probably not, but maybe.

My love for the Grendel is kind of like my hatred of the 300 BO. A little irrational, but I have my reasons.

Hmm... These look interesting https://cuttingedgebullets.com/maximus-6-5-grendel-105gr-20ct

 

[KCode]

Against better judgement, I don't know...I'm going to be going 20" 6.5 Grendel. Will probably make it a rather heavy build.

So far the idea is:
- BCM thermal fit stripped upper
- This barrel https://www.sixfiveoutfitters.com/product/rexus-6-5-grendel-ar15-20-heavy-barrel/
- Probably a 13.2 Larue quad rail

Goal is to be able to shoot the rifle and spot my own shots while still holding the energy and power at target of a 308

 

[nn8734]

Against better judgement, I don't know...I'm going to be going 20" 6.5 Grendel. Will probably make it a rather heavy build.

Why are you going with the 6.5 Grendel if you also feel it's against your better judgement?

Spotting your own shots is a function of recoil management. If you do that well, you'll be able to self-spot regardless of caliber/cartridge so don't let that be a criterion for cartridge selection.

 

[KCode]

Why are you going with the 6.5 Grendel if you also feel it's against your better judgement?

Spotting your own shots is a function of recoil management. If you do that well, you'll be able to self-spot regardless of caliber/cartridge so don't let that be a criterion for cartridge selection.

It seems new cartridges are coming out weekly so no telling what there will be a year from now. I like the idea of 6ARC but want more weight and size for steel shooting at distances. Plus I think the 6ARC is closer to 5.56 performance terminally.

Honestly right now I'm really torn on a 20" 6.5G over a 18" 6.5G. Will have to look more into length I think.

 

[Shoots 700's]

spotting misses can be done with most calibers with proper recoil managment

 

[nn8734]

It seems new cartridges are coming out weekly so no telling what there will be a year from now. I like the idea of 6ARC but want more weight and size for steel shooting at distances. Plus I think the 6ARC is closer to 5.56 performance terminally.

Honestly right now I'm really torn on a 20" 6.5G over a 18" 6.5G. Will have to look more into length I think.

I def agree with the weight/size, will help with recoil...no rush, carefully consider your options...

Next time you go shooting, focus on self-spotting trace...It if helps, use your diopter to de-focus the image ever so slightly then shoot at targets beyond 500m so your bullets have a bit longer flight time...If you do everything right fundimentals wise (esp recoil mgmt) you'll literally be able to watch the bullet (specifically, its "swirl") fly towards the target against the backdrop of your reticle and either spot the hit before you hear/see it or see exactly how much you have to correct for your 2nd shot follow up).

I did that yesterday shooting my M14 and worked perfect...If mirage is thick enough, you wont need to defocus at all...

Like i mentioned, don't make a caliber/cartridge choice based on being able to spot shots as you can spot them w/ 556, 6mm, 6.5, 7mm, 308, 338, etc...just recoil mgmt, that's it.

As far as 6ARC vs 6.5G, weight all the merits ((external ballistics of available bullets, terminal ballistics (if hunting), supply chain risk (factory ammo) or availability of both rifle and ammo components (if building yourself / if reloading), etc) then make a decision based on your requirements.

Lastly, don't worry about what else comes out...I mean, if a phased plasma rifle becomes available, I'm dumping all my center fire rifles but beyond that, it's more important that you become really good with the systems you have. As long as components and supplies like replacement bolts/barrels are likely to remain available, you'll be fine.

 

[ARShooter91]

Do you reload?

 

[hlee]

2700+ fps from a 16” 308 win barrel in an AR-10 is exceptional velocity. Like, it’s the exception. Federal lists the muzzle velocity of their 168 gr gold medal match as 2650 fps. And, that is undoubtedly from a 24” test barrel. My 16” 308 win AR10 shoots this load at ~2500 fps. That’s about what I would expect, given the short barrel. Throwing an outlier mv out for a general comparison between cartridges is disingenuous at best.

My 18” Grendel shoots Hornady black 123 eld-m loads at ~ 2450 fps. My 22” rifles shoots these same loads at 2550 fps. The box lists the mv as 2580 fps.

Here are the values that I get from JBM Ballistics, at 59F and 1000 ft elevation, with a 5 mph full value wind. I used the bullet library provided, 10 twist barrel (8 twist for Grendel), with 1.5" sight height.

I have highlighted the "box values" in cream. Note that the Grendel and the 308win have "similar" trajectories, with a slight edge to the Grendel.

As far as real world velocities, the 16" 308 Win hangs with the 18" Grendel out to 500 yards, then the Grendel pulls ahead slightly.

Finally, the 308 win, build using mostly "bog standard" parts and an A1 stock measures 37" in length, and weighs 9.8 lbs wearing a Vortex crossfire 4-12 variable scope. The Grendel sports a 90's vintage Leupold Vari-xII 3-9 scope, and a magpul CTR stock. It measures 34" fully collapsed and just over 37" fully extended. It weighs 8.6 lbs as configured. Neither rifles were built with "exotic materials" (titanium, magnesium, carbon fiber, etc) but both were built to not be absolute pigs.

To wrap up, the 18" 6.5 Grendel is shorter, lighter, and has equal to slightly better ballistics than the 16" 308 win.

Would I do a Grendel today? I'm about to start a 12.5" Grendel build...

 

[KCode]

Do you reload?

Absolutely!

 

[KCode]

I'm sitting here wondering what I would give up by going 18" 6.5 Grendel barrel over the 20" barrel. I see Rainier Arms sells a 18" Ultra Match barrel and I've heard nothing but good things about them. I love the idea of a <$170 barrel that is a Green Mountain blank but I'm worried I would be leaving accuracy on the table over a more known track record barrel design. I could be wrong but with an AR build I think the barrel is where 75% of the budget should go.

 

[hlee]

I'm sitting here wondering what I would give up by going 18" 6.5 Grendel barrel over the 20" barrel.

About 50 fps...

 

[ARShooter91]

About 50 fps...

Could easily have a fast 18 and get 20" velocity or vice versa

 

[Shoots 700's]

nothing a .1 up couldn't fix

 

[KCode]

About 50 fps...

Seems like 18" might be the way to go in this situation. I'd like a 1000 yard capable rifle focused more around "terminal purpose" 300-400 yards if ever needed.

 

[ARShooter91]

Obviously 19" is correct here.

I'd say grab whichever is the better deal or available. My 18" Lilja is a midlength and was overgassed a lot when suppressed.

 

[LRRPF52]

The grindel matches up pretty close to the 308?
Not even close to the 308 with something other then anemic 70 yr old poor BC 168 SMK which everything seemed to beat, and most cite when they want to bost about the latest new cartridge. There are many new 308 bullets that have higher BCs with new powders.
My 16" AR 10 6lb 3 oz lbs 308 runs 168 eldm .523 BC to 2752 fps with excellent groups.
208 at 2442 fps .691 BC out of the mag
Various match 155 grs running velocities 2820 to 2900 fps. That is just a light weight AR 10, 308 Win with 16" barrel, just "modernized" up, with handloads, using the same bullets used in the 6.5 grendel and 6 mm ARC, in Hornadys ELDM category, and 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy for hunting, available in 16" 308 AR.
The 30" bolt 308 2856 fps with 200 gr SMK .715 BC 7.34 mils to 1000 yds. #1 rifle #1 load.
I have 2 big 300 mags, in 300 WM and 300 RUM, 6.5 CM, 6 ARC, and a host of others. So I'm familiar with what they will do, when handloaded.

I’ve owned 7 different AR-10s, currently have 3 of them, 1 of which is .260 Rem. I don’t shoot them anymore and haven’t for years.

Biggest reasons are:

* Sight picture loss during the shot, trying to spot my own impacts.
* Heavy/bulky
* Lose brass after 3 loads with the .260 Rem
* Have to trim often

I still think it might be fun to do a short 7mm-08, but it isn’t a priority. I used to compete with the 155gr Scenar going 2820fps. I’ve watched a lot of 175gr SMK go downrange through a spotting scope, after watching a lot of 173gr M118 in the 90s.

Nothing in .308 really moves my meter due to the internet challenges with the cartridge. There is a lot of torque generated that yanks the optic to the left when you’re trying to watch your own impacts.

The learning curve for LR shooting is night and day between 6.5 Grendel and .308 Win, though I do love hearing the impact of 175gr+ on steel.

 

[LRRPF52]

The grindel matches up pretty close to the 308?
Not even close to the 308 with something other then anemic 70 yr old poor BC 168 SMK which everything seemed to beat, and most cite when they want to bost about the latest new cartridge. There are many new 308 bullets that have higher BCs with new powders.
My 16" AR 10 6lb 3 oz lbs 308 runs 168 eldm .523 BC to 2752 fps with excellent groups.
208 at 2442 fps .691 BC out of the mag
Various match 155 grs running velocities 2820 to 2900 fps. That is just a light weight AR 10, 308 Win with 16" barrel, just "modernized" up, with handloads, using the same bullets used in the 6.5 grendel and 6 mm ARC, in Hornadys ELDM category, and 3000 ft lb of muzzle energy for hunting, available in 16" 308 AR.
The 30" bolt 308 2856 fps with 200 gr SMK .715 BC 7.34 mils to 1000 yds. #1 rifle #1 load.
I have 2 big 300 mags, in 300 WM and 300 RUM, 6.5 CM, 6 ARC, and a host of others. So I'm familiar with what they will do, when handloaded.

Dang. I’m looking at Hornady’s 22” Service Rifle data for .308 Win with 168gr ELD-M and they max out at 2600fps.

You’re beating them with 6” less barrel, same bullet, by 152fps.

Are you using Lapua Palma brass and Superformance?

Either way, I won’t even try to match those speeds in a gasser. Hornady’s data shows 2700fps max with a 22” bolt gun. You’ve exceeded that by 50fps from a 16” AR-10. All it takes is pressure I guess. How often do you bend Firing Pin Retaining Pins?

 

[LRRPF52]

Why are you going with the 6.5 Grendel if you also feel it's against your better judgement?

Spotting your own shots is a function of recoil management. If you do that well, you'll be able to self-spot regardless of caliber/cartridge so don't let that be a criterion for cartridge selection.

So I’ve been shooting .308 since the 1980s, shooting it in pretty high-volume when doing KD and UKD ranges in Scout Sniper Platoons in the mid-late 1990s, competing with it in the 2000s, and have put boat loads of M118, M118LR, 155gr Scenar hand loads, 178gr, etc. downrange or spotted others doing the same most of my life.

2nd Scout Platoon in Korea on the DMZ doing KD with M24:

FinnSniper 2008 with GAP-Built .308 Obermeyer Pipe shooting 155 Scenar (2nd Place Team. I would have done better with a 6.5 Grendel for that event for sure, though I didn’t do terrible. My partner was shooting .25-06 with Bergers screaming pretty fast.)

On my best day with a heavy rifle from a stable bench position shooting a .308 gasser, it’s still not as good as tracking my own shots from the lightweight Grendels, even the 12”. 6.5 Grendel recoil momentum is less than half of a .308, and the torque value is significantly less as well. Torque is the most overlooked aspect of losing a good sight picture, and there isn’t a lot you can do about it with technique.

One of my favorite .308s to shoot, a Finnish buddy’s SAKO 75 Featherweight bedded into McMillan A4, Reflex Suppressed with BR Tuote. I used this rifle for several FDF Sniper Instructor courses and training sessions they invited me to. You wouldn’t believe how well this rifle with its thin barrel groups all day, day-after-day, so easy to carry around. Pic from 2006:

I’ve had this conversation with instructors from SOTIC and USMC SS guys who are huge advocates of 6.5 Grendel for this reason and many others. I didn’t say anything to them about my experience with the cartridge, just let them speak excitedly about it hitting all the points I hear myself often telling others.

You can take a new shooter with Grendel and have them repeatedly hitting 2 MOA targets with ease at various distances, able to see their own hits without much training, whereas with .308, you start off relying on someone else to provide you feedback because you didn’t see squat.

When I run rapid hits on steel at distance, and transition TGT-to-TGT really fast with multiple hits on each steel, I have to know something about managing recoil. I’m always willing to learn though. Would love a magic button I haven’t come across yet that would help tame AR-10 reciprocating mass effects on sight picture for the rare times I shoot them.

I can run the .260 Rem gasser better than I expected moving and shooting in a CQM-type scenario, but the sight picture when static is still much harder to manage than with Grendel. .260 Rem smokes it ballistically, but the pros don’t outweigh the cons for me enough to continue to shoot it in volume.

 

[LRRPF52]

Seems like 18" might be the way to go in this situation. I'd like a 1000 yard capable rifle focused more around "terminal purpose" 300-400 yards if ever needed.

What altitudes are the ranges where you shoot?

 

[nn8734]

So I’ve been shooting .308 since the 1980s, shooting it in pretty high-volume when doing KD and UKD ranges in Scout Sniper Platoons in the mid-late 1990s, competing with it in the 2000s, and have put boat loads of M118, M118LR, 155gr Scenar hand loads, 178gr, etc. downrange or spotted others doing the same most of my life.

On my best day with a heavy rifle from a stable bench position shooting a .308 gasser, it’s still not as good as tracking my own shots from the lightweight Grendels, even the 12”. 6.5 Grendel recoil momentum is less than half of a .308, and the torque value is significantly less as well. Torque is the most overlooked aspect of losing a good sight picture, and there isn’t a lot you can do about it with technique.

I’ve had this conversation with instructors from SOTIC and USMC SS guys who are huge advocates of 6.5 Grendel for this reason and many others. I didn’t say anything to them about my experience with the cartridge, just let them speak excitedly about it hitting all the points I hear myself often telling others.

You can take a new shooter and have them repeatedly hitting 2 MOA targets with ease at various distances, able to see their own hits without much training, whereas with .308, you start off relying on someone else to provide you feedback because you didn’t see squat.

When I run rapid hits on steel at distance, and transition TGT-to-TGT really fast with multiple hits on each steel, I have to know something about managing recoil. I’m always willing to learn though. Would love a magic button I haven’t come across yet that would help tame AR-10 reciprocating mass effects on sight picture for the rare times I shoot them.

I can run the .260 Rem gasser better than I expected moving and shooting in a CQM-type scenario, but the sight picture when static is still much harder to manage than with Grendel. .260 Rem smokes it ballistically, but the pros don’t outweigh the cons for me enough to continue to shoot it in volume.

Is there something in my post that you quoted that you are disputing or taking issue with?

 

[LRRPF52]

Is there something in my post that you quoted that you are disputing or taking issue with?

Recoil management isn’t as easy to do with the .308-based cartridges and larger in my experience. The BR-based cartridges seem to be the limit where once you cross over, your ability to spot your impacts with a meaningful reticle correction is pretty hard to do.

.308 especially has a lot of torque that once you recover from it, your projectile has already impacted and your reticle wasn’t at the place it was when you broke the shot. This is even worse with a gas gun because of the large reciprocating mass that adds other impact forces to the rifle as you’re trying to maintain a stable sight picture. You might have the TGT still in the FOV, but didn’t get to see exactly what happened.

I find that I can mitigate it somewhat with a .308 if I have a variable power optic that allows me to dial down and still has exceptional glass that allows clear resolution of the target, with useful reticle increments, but I do have to sacrifice the magnification I might have wanted to use. I’m not a high magnification guy either. If the .308 is suppressed, this helps too.

With 6.5 Grendel, I can rapid-fire into the head area of 2/3 IPSCs at 500-600yds, even have video of it. That’s with a really lightweight 17.6” Grendel with a Lilja Wasp profile barrel. Feels like an old-school M4 with no SOPMOD accessories. That ain’t happening with any of my .308 gassers that weigh 14lb+ even. It’s easier with the 14lb .260 Remington shooting 123gr or 130s, but still not as easy as with a lightweight Grendel.

107gr-110gr 6.5 grendel and 6mm are very easy to do this with, even more so than 123gr Grendel. They feel like shooting .223 Rem for me/shooter’s perspective. 90gr Grendel feels almost recoilless.

 

[nn8734]

Recoil management isn’t as easy to do with the .308-based cartridges and larger in my experience. The BR-based cartridges seem to be the limit where once you cross over, your ability to spot your impacts with a meaningful reticle correction is pretty hard to do.

.308 especially has a lot of torque that once you recover from it, your projectile has already impacted and your reticle wasn’t at the place it was when you broke the shot. This is even worse with a gas gun because of the large reciprocating mass that adds other impact forces to the rifle as you’re trying to maintain a stable sight picture. You might have the TGT still in the FOV, but didn’t get to see exactly what happened.

I find that I can mitigate it somewhat with a .308 if I have a variable power optic that allows me to dial down and still has exceptional glass that allows clear resolution of the target, with useful reticle increments, but I do have to sacrifice the magnification I might have wanted to use. I’m not a high magnification guy either. If the .308 is suppressed, this helps too.

With 6.5 Grendel, I can rapid-fire into the head area of 2/3 IPSCs at 500-600yds, even have video of it. That’s with a really lightweight 17.6” Grendel with a Lilja Wasp profile barrel. Feels like an old-school M4 with no SOPMOD accessories. That ain’t happening with any of my .308 gassers that weigh 14lb+ even. It’s easier with the 14lb .260 Remington shooting 123gr or 130s, but still not as easy as with a lightweight Grendel.

107gr-110gr 6.5 grendel and 6mm are very easy to do this with, even more so than 123gr Grendel. They feel like shooting .223 Rem for me/shooter’s perspective. 90gr Grendel feels almost recoilless.

Are you interpreting my post to him as me recommending that he go with a .308?

If so, you completely mis-read it. I said or implied no such thing. If not, what/how exactly are you seeing it?

 

[LRRPF52]

I really need to do a video showing several different chambered gas guns with different shooters to illustrate what I’m talking about.

Each configuration has its pros and cons:

* .308 hits the steel nice and hard, but rifles weigh a lot more, recoil and sight picture are not conducive to self-spotting. Lots of ammo selection, though not all is designed for gas guns. Mil-Std for the 7.62 NATO and M118LR includes chamber and gas port pressure ranges that have to be met. Long accuracy and barrel life due to lack of overbore. Tons of data available. Magazines are hit and miss depending on who made them and for which receiver, carrier, bolt, and extension.

* .223 has very easy sight picture management and can be free-recoiled even for many people, but is anemic on-target, limited in ogive length/projectile selection weights. Tons of magazine selection that work after 67 years of continued magazine development.

* 6.5 Grendel hits the steel about like a 168gr SMK when shooting 123gr, has less than half the recoil of .308 Win, fits in the small frame with ease, gas system is like 5.56 with port dims and positions, sight picture and recoil are easy to manage though you do benefit from gas gun fundamentals, magazines have 20 years of continued development. Low chamber pressure and no overbore equal ridiculously-long accuracy and barrel life. Does exceptionally-well from short, medium, and long barrels. 124 factory loads

* 6mm ARC is great for recoil management (doesn’t have much, like .223 rem), easy to hit TGTs with, fits in small frame, has some nuances with gas system due to smaller bore volume so ports need to be adjusted to work well, shares mags with Grendel but smaller diameter projectiles ride up and through the extension feed ramps differently with VLDs. 3-4 factory loads?

 

[LRRPF52]

Are you interpreting my post to him as me recommending that he go with a .308?

If so, you completely mis-read it. I said or implied no such thing. If not, what/how exactly are you seeing it?

Didn’t think that at all. It seemed pretty clear that you said you can spot your own hits with good technique, which I agree with to a point.

It is far easier to spot you own hits with a lightweight Grendel than it is with a heavy .308, especially gas guns. The same shooter with a set experience/skill level will always be able to see their impacts without much effort with 6.5 Grendel, whereas they will have to work really hard to get marginal improvements in self-spotting with the larger cartridges.

This has very practical benefits for both target work and hunting. I wish something like it had been available long ago.

 

[carbonbased]

Spotting your own shots is a function of recoil management. If you do that well, you'll be able to self-spot regardless of caliber/cartridge so don't let that be a criterion for cartridge selection.

Are you interpreting my post to him as me recommending that he go with a .308?

If so, you completely mis-read it. I said or implied no such thing. If not, what/how exactly are you seeing it?

In the top quote, you are saying, literally, that regardless of caliber/cartridge, one should be able to self-spot if one can manage recoil well.

You go on to say to ignore caliber when you choose a rifle (if you can manage recoil well).

You do not suggest there is a sliding scale of “easiness” re:recoil management in relationship to caliber (even if one can manage recoil well).

You don’t see that in your writing?

 

[ARShooter91]

Didn’t think that at all. It seemed pretty clear that you said you can spot your own hits with good technique, which I agree with to a point.

It is far easier to spot you own hits with a lightweight Grendel than it is with a heavy .308, especially gas guns. The same shooter with a set experience/skill level will always be able to see their impacts without much effort with 6.5 Grendel, whereas they will have to work really hard to get marginal improvements in self-spotting with the larger cartridges.

This has very practical benefits for both target work and hunting. I wish something like it had been available long ago.

I get what you're saying. It's really obvious when you get off a bench or prone and in awkward field positions or even a tripod. I still like my 6.5creed bolt if I'm going past 800 and especially past 1k. No problems spotting for myself but it is 5lbs heavier than my Grendel.

Also agree on full size cartridge in a semi. Like the fella above getting that velocity out of a 6lb gun lol 2700ft lbs muzzle energy in that gun would have horrendous movement after the shot.

 

[nn8734]

In the top quote, you are saying, literally, that regardless of caliber/cartridge, one should be able to self-spot if one can manage recoil well.

I never mentioned any sliding scale, one way or another.

My statement applies to the shooter who already has the requisite skill; I mention nothing about how long it takes to get there because it's not necessary since I wasn't trying to push the OP to a larger, more powerful cartridge like a .308...just merely using it as an example to make my point, in the context of this discussion and intermediate cartridges under consideration.

I originally suggested a 6ARC much earlier in this thread but 6.5 Grendel is an excellent round also and would be a great choice if that is what he elected to go with, given what he's looking for.

In the post you're referring to, I questioned his word choices, wondering why he'd make a selection that was "against his better judgement" as that doesn't make sense to me...Seemed as though he was rushing the selection for whatever reason (otherwise why say something like that)?

If you manage recoil well, regardless of what cartridge you're shooting (here I'm referring to braked or suppressed .338 or smaller), you should be able to effectively self spot most of the time, which is which most will be shooting with. What folks seem to be getting hung up on (and perhaps assuming) is that my statement is also addressing the amount of time, practice and work it takes to get there is all the same, regardless of cartridge and I said no such thing...

It's not going to take someone nearly as long to become proficient managing recoil with a small-frame AR cartridge like 5.56, 6ARC or 6.5 Grendel as it would take to get to that same point in your skill development as .308 or larger. That is common sense.

I self spot out of necessity, often shooting by myself so I focus and pay particular attention to how I manage recoil so that I can see / spot misses and make corrections shooting everything from 5.56 (Mk12/carbines) to .300 win mag. I still haven't gotten to the point to where I can consistently self-spot with the Win Mag but can with all my 308s (bolt/gassers) and everything else. I also shoot weekly, mostly with .308 so that helps.

Once you acquire the skill, you can reliably self spot. I never mentioned anything about how long it would take to get there as that is shooter-dependent, as I'm sure you know.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[carbonbased]

I never mentioned any sliding scale, one way or another.

My statement applies to the shooter who already has the requisite skill; I mention nothing about how long it takes to get there because it's not necessary since I wasn't trying to push the OP to a larger, more powerful cartridge like a .308...just merely using it as an example to make my point, in the context of this discussion.

I originally suggested a 6ARC much earlier in this thread but 6.5 Grendel is an excellent round also and would be a great choice if that is what he elected to go with, given what he's looking for.

In the post you're referring to, I questioned his word choices, wondering why he'd make a selection that was "against his better judgement" as that doesn't make sense to me...Seemed as though he was rushing the selection for whatever reason (otherwise why say something like that)?

If you manage recoil well, regardless of what cartridge you're shooting (here I'm referring to braked or suppressed .338 or smaller), you should be able to effectively self spot most of the time, which is which most will be shooting with. What folks seem to be getting hung up on (and perhaps assuming) is that my statement is also addressing the amount of time, practice and work it takes to get there is all the same, regardless of cartridge and I said no such thing...

It's not going to take someone nearly as long to become proficient managing recoil with a small-frame AR cartridge like 5.56, 6ARC or 6.5 Grendel as it would take to get to that same point in your skill development as .308 or larger. That is common sense.

I self spot out of necessity, often shooting by myself so I focus and pay particular attention to how I manage recoil so that I can see / spot misses and make corrections shooting everything from 5.56 (Mk12/carbines) to .300 win mag. I still haven't gotten to the point to where I can consistently self-spot with the Win Mag but can with all my 308s (bolt/gassers) and everything else. I also shoot weekly, mostly with .308 so that helps.

Once you acquire the skill, you can reliably self spot. I never mentioned anything about how long it would take to get there as that is shooter-dependent, as I'm sure you know.

Hope that makes sense.

Not mentioning the sliding scale is the primary weakness of your argument. Smaller calibers are easier and maybe more enjoyable even for many experts. That is the point me and @LRRPF52 are making.

Sure, using pure logic, yeah:
- person has perfect recoil management
- therefore caliber should not factor in purchase

That purely logical argument is not helpful to anyone in the real world?

If someone believes that (even an expert), they might buy a rifle in too large a caliber. Get it?

Edit: I think we (you, @LRRPF52, and me all basically agree, but have different ways of saying it, place different emphasis upon certain things, and assume different knowledge in the mind of who we’re talking to. Ease-of-use vs. pure recoil management skill, etc.

 

[nn8734]

Not mentioning the sliding scale is the primary weakness of your argument. That is the point me and @LRRPF52 are making.

Sure, using pure logic, yeah:
- person has perfect recoil management
- therefore caliber should not factor in purchase

That purely logical argument is not helpful to anyone in the real world?

If someone believes that, they might buy a rifle in too large a caliber. Get it?

So, if i understand you correctly, im at fault for using pure logic?

There is literally zero chance anyone buys a rifle in "too large a caliber" if they have already clearly defined their requirements and are simply trying to decide/down-select between two or three chamberings that broadly meet their needs, which is the case here. OP will likely go with the 6.5G which is an excellent cartridge and he'll be very happy with it.

If you manage recoil, you'll be able to self spot. Simple as that. You want to get hung up not mentioning "sliding scales" and such, that's up to you. Sure, I could have mentioned it, but wasnt necessary since I was not suggesting he go bigger than what he was already considering so need. I definitely would have, if i was, in fact, suggesting he go .308. Not mentioning the steeper learning curve for the larger cartridge to a newer shooter would have been an omission on my part.

You/LRRFP can have the last word, I'm over it.. I am glad it hasnt devolved into the usual ad hominems and bullshit, so there's that.

 

[carbonbased]

So, if i understand you correctly, im at fault for using pure logic?

There is literally zero chance anyone buys a rifle in "too large a caliber" if they have already clearly defined their requirements and are simply trying to decide/down-select between two or three chamberings that broadly meet their needs, which is the case here. OP will likely go with the 6.5G which is an excellent cartridge and he'll be very happy with it.

If you manage recoil, you'll be able to self spot. Simple as that. You want to get hung up not mentioning "sliding scales" and such, that's up to you. Sure, I could have mentioned it, but wasnt necessary since I was not suggesting he go bigger than what he was already considering so need. I definitely would have, if i was, in fact, suggesting he go .308. Not mentioning the steeper learning curve for the larger cartridge to a newer shooter would have been an omission on my part.

You/LRRFP can have the last word, I'm over it.. I am glad it hasnt devolved into the usual ad hominems and bullshit, so there's that.

I just edited my post as you posted. Here’s what I wrote:

I think we (you, @LRRPF52, and me all basically agree, but have different ways of saying it, place different emphasis upon certain things, and assume different knowledge in the mind of who we’re talking to. Ease-of-use vs. pure recoil management skill, etc.​

I too am glad there’s no shitposting.

 

[nn8734]

I just edited my post as you posted. Here’s what I wrote:

I think we (you, @LRRPF52, and me all basically agree, but have different ways of saying it and place different emphasis upon certain things. Ease-of-use vs. pure recoil management skill, etc.​

I too am glad there’s no shitposting.

Yep, most def and all good...a@LRRPF52 is an immense wealth of info so always glad when he posts. Just wanted to be certain he didnt think i was recommending a 308.....because i really think the op should go with a Noreen Bad News .338 Lapua

(Just kidding, OP)

Cheers!

 

[carbonbased]

Yep, most def and all good...a@LRRPF52 is an immense wealth of info so always glad when he posts. Just wanted to be certain he didnt think i was recommending a 308.....because i really think the op should go with a Noreen Bad News .338 Lapua

(Just kidding, OP)

Cheers!

And here I was rooting for .22 Short. lol

 

[nn8734]

And here I was rooting for .22 Short. lol

How about 22-50 bmg? Gasser, of course...the recoil should be....interesting.

 

[KCode]

What altitudes are the ranges where you shoot?

676' elevation

 

[hlee]

How about 22-50 bmg? Gasser, of course...the recoil should be....interesting.
View attachment 8324246

What’s up with that 22-50? FFS, the designer should have blown the shoulder forward. And, everyone knows a 40 deg shoulder is more efficient.

 

[45-90]

What's all the whining about recoil of 308 cartridges...
Being an old geezer, with 5 shoulder surgeries, 12 mm bolts holding it together, on my 70th birthday, I fired 70 rounds of 50BMG, in the prone from a 30 lb rifle, the heavier 750 & 800 gr bullets have more recoil than the 650 grain.
Its hard to get back on target when only 8 or 9 hundred yds out, with 50BMG recoil. ...so increase the distance and use a 10X scope with the 50BMG or the 308. Plus throw in a tracer in the 50BMG and see.
But a 308 is a piece of cake, in recoil and being your own spotter, after 17,000 match 308 rds you adjust so it can be accomplished. For me, max range was a mere 1400yds at the time, and a 26" & 27" replacement 308 barrels. A Mark 4 3-10X was all I needed..and sometimes turn the power down to 8X at 1400yds to see the impact. Shooting in high mountain wind currents across deep canyons. During the hey day of a 308 win pop cans were easy at 1000yds. Today we have better bullets and more powders to choose from.
Or shoot a 45-90 with 500 gr bullets going 1800 fps in an 1886 Win with a steel butt plate...or the 50-120 750 gr...before recoil pads were invented. And in 1879 the 45-70 was declared accurate for the average trooper to 1900 yds open sights. But tested to 3500 yds in 1879 by the US War Department.
Or break out the 10 lb 22 short, with an extra thick recoil pad, and muzzle brake, for today's manly types.

 

[45-90]

Dang. I’m looking at Hornady’s 22” Service Rifle data for .308 Win with 168gr ELD-M and they max out at 2600fps.

You’re beating them with 6” less barrel, same bullet, by 152fps.

Are you using Lapua Palma brass and Superformance?

Either way, I won’t even try to match those speeds in a gasser. Hornady’s data shows 2700fps max with a 22” bolt gun. You’ve exceeded that by 50fps from a 16” AR-10. All it takes is pressure I guess. How often do you bend Firing Pin Retaining Pins?

Yeah, but it ain't a service rifle...its a light 16", 6 lb AR 10, running 168 ELDM at 2756 fps with excellent accuracy. Also the new 169 and 177 SMK are higher BC and excellent shooter. Or 208 gr at 2442 Ave fps for heavy bullet.

Or go to the heavier 18" 308 AR 10 with 200 gr SMK .715 BC at 2673 fps for your 1500 yd encounters.
9 twist 22" barrel bolt gun 7.5 lbs 200 gr SMK 2740 fps, 230 gr SMK .8 BC 2550 fps.
Also shoot the 230 and 250 Atips in 308
Long action 30" heavy palma 8 twist.
Then there are military 6.8× 51 hybrid cases fromed to 308 for added performance, used only in bolt guns. Like 3256fps for 168 gr bullet, as a maximum effort in 30" 8 twist.
As a retired machinist and 30 years firing many thousands of 308s, and still experimenting with them, to change and improve on this caliber. Changing everything and anything, so many rifles are not standard, just the 308 case is standard...but some are, like the light 16" AR 10 308, and the 18" & 24" are all standard, but their performance is not...the rest not so much.

 

[GIXXER2000]

NO