Zermatt TL3 to a muzzle loader (list on #162)

EN2722

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  • May 27, 2019
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    In a thread the other day there was a couple people posted that they know someone that converted a TL3 to a muzzle loader and it peaked interest.

    So I figured it would be worth starting a thread. I’ll tag the people in once I find it again. If you have info about it please post and pictures help!

    Edit: tagging in @Longshot284 for mentioning it. @mtnhunter22 and @Win223 showed interest and I’m sure there’s others.
     
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    bohem

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    I did it, I am sure several others have as well.

    I ordered 25 blanks from Lothar Walther, they are a month or two out. We are working on the details of a group buy for this forum.

    I took a deer at 484yd this year with one. They shoot.

    I am also working on developing solids for these rifles so that we aren't throwing 2800fps potatoes.
     

    JBoomhauer

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    I am also looking for info on this. It would be neat to try one on the origin.
     

    EN2722

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  • May 27, 2019
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    Agreed the concept is cool but how was it done? Lol

    Maybe I’m not entirely familiar with this new age bolt action muzzle loader.

    I assume @bohem you spun a barrel for the caliber and threads of a TL3 and then what bolt face did you use? What was the vehicle for ignition? Any concerns or beginning failures that can be shared?

    I think guys are interested due to the investment in which they have in CF rifles. If one can be converted or slightly modified to be a muzzle loader for a couple of weeks to a month a year inside of throwing more money at another setup.
     
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    bohem

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    Agreed the concept is cool but how was it done? Lol

    Maybe I’m not entirely familiar with this new age bolt action muzzle loader.

    I assume @bohem you spun a barrel for the caliber and threads of a TL3 and then what bolt face did you use? What was the vehicle for ignition? Any concerns or beginning failures that can be shared?

    I think guys are interested due to the investment in which they have in CF rifles. If one can be converted or slightly modified to be a muzzle loader for a couple of weeks to a month a year inside of throwing more money at another setup.

    It is a very simple conversion, basically the same as swapping calibers. Ignition is done via priming modules and a bespoke breech plug.

    The reasons it is a cool concept is not only the ease of conversion to maintain use of an already built platform but also the substantial increase in effective range.

    I have shot them to 1100yd, taken game at 500+ and seen someone else do it at over 700.
     

    EN2722

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  • May 27, 2019
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    It is a very simple conversion, basically the same as swapping calibers. Ignition is done via priming modules and a bespoke breech plug.

    The reasons it is a cool concept is not only the ease of conversion to maintain use of an already built platform but also the substantial increase in effective range.

    I have shot them to 1100yd, taken game at 500+ and seen someone else do it at over 700.

    Thanks for that bit of info. A couple questions, If you have time.

    Does that priming module fit onto the standard 308 bolt face or does it require another bolt face?

    My assumption is the breach plug is threaded into the chamber? Similar to the TC breech plug?

    Conversion time similar to a CF barrel change? Or any added steps?
     

    bohem

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    Thanks for that bit of info. A couple questions, If you have time.

    Does that priming module fit onto the standard 308 bolt face or does it require another bolt face?

    My assumption is the breach plug is threaded into the chamber? Similar to the TC breech plug?

    Conversion time similar to a CF barrel change? Or any added steps?
    The priming modules can be had in 308 and mag bolt faces.

    Changes are just as easy as swapping a regular barrel. If you leave the breech plug in the barrel you don't need to do anything.more than that.

    The breech plug swaps in and out with a socket and extension. You don't need to take it in or out for much of anything.
     
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    EN2722

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  • May 27, 2019
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    The priming modules can be had in 308 and mag bolt faces.

    Changes are just as easy as swapping a regular barrel. If you leave the breech plug in the barrel you don't need to do anything.more than that.

    The breech plug swaps in and out with a socket and extension. You don't need to take it in or out for much of anything.

    You’re the best. Thank you!

    Are you producing muzzle loading barrels for the TL3 at this time?
     

    SkyScrapin

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    @bohem

    If I'm understanding this correctly, you can take an existing fully setup TL3 rifle, convert barrel and bolt to accommodate blackpowder, and be on your way. It could be a purpose built rifle, or a conversion, correct?
     
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    b6graham

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    @bohem

    If I'm understanding this correctly, you can take an existing fully setup TL3 rifle, convert barrel and bolt to accommodate blackpowder, and be on your way. It could be a purpose built rifle, or a conversion, correct?
    guys i've seen run smokeless powder

    im in for a group buy 100%
     

    EN2722

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    Minuteman
  • May 27, 2019
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    @bohem

    If I'm understanding this correctly, you can take an existing fully setup TL3 rifle, convert barrel and bolt to accommodate blackpowder, and be on your way. It could be a purpose built rifle, or a conversion, correct?

    The way I understand it is you keep your current bolt face just add the priming module and breech plug that screws into the barrel. Just like any CF swap, in and out and now you’ve taken your TL3 from shooting CF to a muzzle loader.

    IMHO, this is a huge win
     

    wadebrown

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    Are you going to sell blanks in the group buy? I ask because I have a Howa 1500 action sitting on the shelf waiting for this conversion.
     

    Ledzep

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    @bohem

    If I'm understanding this correctly, you can take an existing fully setup TL3 rifle, convert barrel and bolt to accommodate blackpowder, and be on your way. It could be a purpose built rifle, or a conversion, correct?

    Yes, but no bolt modifications necessary. The variants I've seen use what essentially replicates the ass-end of a .308 cartridge and holds a standard large rifle primer. That primer module rides on the bolt face (guys with M700's usually ditch the ejector plunger) and 'chambers' into the breech plug. As someone else mentioned, most guys are using smokeless powder and getting 2500-2800+fps with bullets that are plenty capable to 400-500yd or more.

    If it will work in a TL3, will it also work in the Origin?

    Yes. There's a company out there that makes Savage prefits for this style conversion that will fit any 1.063x20tpi action. If PVA is going to get on board, all the better.
     
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    M_R_Woodard

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    I had mine built by Meredith rifles on a single shot 700 action using Jeff Hankin's breech plug and modules. Looking back I should have had Tooter thread the barrel for my Origin since our muzzleloader season is only two weeks long. Shooting a Pittman 278 grain bullet with H4198 at 2610 fps. It will go faster but it's more recoil than I care for.
     

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    KYAggie

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    Shooting a Pittman 278 grain bullet with H4198 at 2610 fps. It will go faster but it's more recoil than I care for.

    Wow, that puts the M in modern muzzleloading! I had no idea running smokeless powder was even an option. I love how the regulators create muzzle loading seasons for hunting and we rise to the occasion and create muzzle loaders with performance close to a centerfire.
     
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    b6graham

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    Wow, that puts the M in modern muzzleloading! I had no idea running smokeless powder was even an option. I love how the regulators create muzzle loading seasons for hunting and we rise to the occasion and create muzzle loaders with performance close to a centerfire.
    i know a guy that shoots the 328s at 2800. quite impressive. submoa groups at 500 and thats even with eh BC bullets
     

    EN2722

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    Here’s the company that the guy referenced from the previous thread.


    They sell a Savage (both small and large shank) thread cut Brux barrels

    With that in mind, it requires a barrel nut (Remage/Howage style) and how does one set head space? My assumption is the use of the priming module will get you within the appropriate tolerances? Or is there a specific Go/No Go or field gauge for them?

    I’ll send them an email to inquire, unless someone can provide some wisdom.
     
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    Ledzep

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    Here’s the company that the guy referenced from the previous thread.


    They sell a Savage (both small and large shank) thread cut Brux barrels

    With that in mind, it requires a barrel nut (Remage/Howage style) and how does one set head space? My assumption is the use of the priming module will get you within the appropriate tolerances? Or is there a specific Go/No Go or field gauge for them?

    I’ll send them an email to inquire, unless someone can provide some wisdom.

    Those are the ones I've seen used. I can't remember if they sell a GO gauge or not, but you can screw the breech plug into the barrel then use a module as a gage.
     
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    EN2722

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    Those are the ones I've seen used. I can't remember if they sell a GO gauge or not, but you can screw the breech plug into the barrel then use a module as a gage.

    That’s what I figured as headspace probably not as concerning as with a CF cartridge.

    I’ll reach out to them and get some more specifics and update accordingly
     

    bohem

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    I had mine built by Meredith rifles on a single shot 700 action using Jeff Hankin's breech plug and modules. Looking back I should have had Tooter thread the barrel for my Origin since our muzzleloader season is only two weeks long. Shooting a Pittman 278 grain bullet with H4198 at 2610 fps. It will go faster but it's more recoil than I care for.
    I've got Shockwave brakes that will tame that girl for you. I wouldn't dream of lighting these elephant guns off without a muzzle device.

    Yes, but no bolt modifications necessary. The variants I've seen use what essentially replicates the ass-end of a .308 cartridge and holds a standard large rifle primer. That primer module rides on the bolt face (guys with M700's usually ditch the ejector plunger) and 'chambers' into the breech plug. As someone else mentioned, most guys are using smokeless powder and getting 2500-2800+fps with bullets that are plenty capable to 400-500yd or more.



    Yes. There's a company out there that makes Savage prefits for this style conversion that will fit any 1.063x20tpi action. If PVA is going to get on board, all the better.
    BAM, nailed it.

    Though I'm not sure if I'm going to do Savage and Remage prefits. Not becuase I don't want to but I am concerned about the safety of a small shank like that. I need to do some testing before I jump into it. If Luke's doing them then we will probably get into it as well since he's not typically laissez faire about safety with products.

    Are you going to sell blanks in the group buy? I ask because I have a Howa 1500 action sitting on the shelf waiting for this conversion.
    I need your action to do it but I can do that no problem.




    Guys,

    Right now I don't have any blanks. I bought 5 and ran out. When I ordered more I was told it would be about 3 months so we're waiting on getting in 25 barrel blanks. They're 18 twist 45 caliber rifle barrels that will finish at 26" long and it's going to be a little while til I have them here. I'm not going to launch a group buy until I have the blanks inbound at least.

    If you're interested in one then put your name up that you're interested in this thread and I'll start tabulating a list to get a count. Price is probably going to be about $550 for the barrel and a breech plug, we might throw together some more shockwave brakes setup for large caliber to go with them if I can come up with the machine time to run them. I only have a couple left right now.
     
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    JBoomhauer

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    Put me down as interested in one. Do these typically shoot a sabot and undersized bullet or one that fits the bore?
     
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    JBoomhauer

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    So much to learn, is there a website that specializes or has good info on a modern rig like this?
     
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    Longshot284

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    Sorry for the late reply OP - actually out hunting with my muzzleloader haha. I’m sorry I didn’t read all the posts above me so forgive me if this is redundant.

    super easy. I went to Luke at Arrowhead Rifles and ordered a Savage prefit barrel, his breach plug system and his projectiles. Quite literally the easiest accuracy I can explain. I screwed the components together, loaded the recommended powder and immediately shot well below MOA at 2625fps from a 22” barrel. It was that simple. Give the shop a call and they will get you setup. I believe it was about $1k total for the MZ setup but worth it. 500yds is a chip shot. Almost identical exterior ballistics as my 175 SMK load in a 308
     

    EN2722

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    So much to learn, is there a website that specializes or has good info on a modern rig like this?

    A specific website that has all the information? Not that I’ve found.

    There’s a lot of information in this thread. I first learned it existed from watching Precision Hunting on Prime TV where McWhorter Custom Rifles builds one and it blew my mind 🤯




    @bohem thank you for this as this is reason number 1,000 this forum is the best around.

    I’m interested and please put me down for one.
     
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    M_R_Woodard

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    I've got Shockwave brakes that will tame that girl for you. I wouldn't dream of lighting these elephant guns off without a muzzle device.
    He threaded it 3/4 24 for me, I just dont like hunting with a brake. I did put a limbsaver recoil pad on it that made a huge difference. This is strictly a light weight hunting rifle not something I'm going to target shoot with. Which breech plug are you planning to use?
     

    Bfish22

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    So much to learn, is there a website that specializes or has good info on a modern rig like this?

    Check out Doug’s message board, there’s a smokeless muzzleloader forum on there.

    Also hanks message boards has a lot of info.

    Lots of info on those sites if you take the time to comb through the threads...guys have been converting savage and Remington rifles for quite a few years. Been interesting watching the evolution of these muzzleloaders
     

    M_R_Woodard

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    I have never liked muzzleloaders, but Tennessee's rut usually starts during our two week muzzleloader season. I have shot several deer and coyotes over the last 15 years with my Traditions break action using blackhorn 209, but was never 100% confident that it would go off or hit where I was aiming. Now it feels like I'm hunting with a single shot high power rifle with no delay between pulling the trigger and the gun going off. I figure I have 30 more years of hunting so I made the investment and dont regret it.
     
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    Slim Reaper

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    I would be interested. I use the origin with the hunts long range recoil lug. So I can use TL3 prefits. Off to find info on YouTube...
     
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    EN2722

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    If there’s a few more people that show interest I’ll go back and collect all the names up and compile them on one post. Hopefully that will make it easier when everything happens.
     
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    Codiekfx400

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    I also would like to second that if Bohem does a group buy that everything but the components for ammo and the action are included in the package to make my life easier.
     
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    bohem

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    Good call, Matt. Thanks!

    Doesn't need to be only for TL3s and Origins. We can do a lot of others too. My biggest concern is buying enough blanks to run a group buy and then getting stuck with a pile of stuff that doesn't move. If we have 10 here already I am feeling pretty good about it. I will see what we might be able to arrange with ASG to cut some others costs involved.
     

    EN2722

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  • May 27, 2019
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    Good call, Matt. Thanks!

    Doesn't need to be only for TL3s and Origins. We can do a lot of others too. My biggest concern is buying enough blanks to run a group buy and then getting stuck with a pile of stuff that doesn't move. If we have 10 here already I am feeling pretty good about it. I will see what we might be able to arrange with ASG to cut some others costs involved.

    You're welcome.

    I'll keep updating as others locate the post and become interested with the last date it was updated so we do not lose track.

    For use noobs in this modern muzzleloading rifle world, it would be worth it to package as best you can.

    If there's anything else you need, please let us know! Thanks again!
     

    Earnhardt

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    You guys been living under a rock for the last 8-10 years?...
    1000 yard smokeless muzzle loaders have been around a long time...
    get your velocities above 3000 FPS with those bullets and now you’re having fun!