Rifle Scopes Zero Compromise Optic update
- Thread starter gebhardt02
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I think GR2ID reticle does not obviate a need for a more conventional tree reticle. To me GR2ID is more of a Horus-style grid done right.
With modern "conventional" tree reticles, my favorites are probably ZCO's MPCT2 and Tangent's Gen 3 XR.
I think GR2ID encourages somewhat different type of shooting than these two.
ILya
Nightforce has 2 excellent 1-8's in the NX8 and ATACR line and the MInox is superb as well, albeit a bit heavy.
You can definitely “see through” the reticle much better than the Horus reticles. Less the fluff at that.
I agree there. Those are excellent reticle designs. I do like the MR4 in the ZP5 (personally own).
More of a tactical, for lack of better terms, than PRS style?
Still a reasonable question nonetheless. Knocking it out of the park with the 4-20 and 5-27, it only makes sense that the 1-8 crowd would love to see another home run for them as well.
Probably not in the immediate plans but it looks like the future is bright for ZCO.
Unfortunately, each of those has problems for this particular use case. For Nightforce, FFP & the reticles are not too ideal... the outer ring is too large and distracting at 1x, and the inner dot is too large at 8x.
Minox seems very nice with the dual focal plane setup, but the SFP center dot disappears after 3x & the reticle illumination after that isn't bright enough vs the dot. It's a bit too pricey for that kind of compromise.
I think all 3 of these are more suited to short-to-mid range combat & general purpose use/hunting than 3 gun where you want a really bright center dot & fast target acquisition.
I do really like that Nightforce offers green reticles like the the ZCO though. I prefer green reticles now after using the Holosun 510C reflex optic. Very bright & easier to pickup vs red, IMO.
Would love to see something like a ZCO competitor to the Vortex HD Gen II 1-6 and Swarovski Z8i 1-8. Something with super nice glass, mil drops, & a green reticle option.
I'm just happy these Co's are getting away from mixing the .5 mil holdover hashes with .2's and going to the all .2 mil hashes instead! That was a big fail when Athlon went backwards to the .5 holdovers. The main reason I sold my Cronus BTR.
I use the H59 mostly but I could be plenty content with any of the 100% .2 mil reticles, though I have my own ideas to make them easier to use for holdovers/offs.
ZCO/MPCT2 is the only one so far I liked enough to maybe consider selling one of the PM2's/H59
ZCO, if you do a 1-8 please put adjustable side focus parallax on it.
I use the H59 mostly but I could be plenty content with any of the 100% .2 mil reticles, though I have my own ideas to make them easier to use for holdovers/offs.
ZCO/MPCT2 is the only one so far I liked enough to maybe consider selling one of the PM2's/H59
ZCO, if you do a 1-8 please put adjustable side focus parallax on it.
Not sure what size targets you are shooting at but I can easily make hits at 200 yards on a 6" plate with my NX8 on 8x. It's not great for precision shooting but neither is the 12.5 AR pistol it's mounted on. Gets the job done though.
On 1x I like the outer ring as its easy to pick up. I would like to see the center dot at .15-.20 mil though instead of .35 mil.
Just in case you're taking notes for any future endeavors ZCO.
I wonder what it would take a company with the name “Zero Compromise” to produce a 1-8x. I mean the 1-8x by design is chock full of compromise.
I assure you ZCO is considering other designs, but for now they have their hands full with the yep they've got.
ILya
ILya
@gebhardt02 and anyone else who cares: ZCO, you make an awesome product! I used my shiny new ZC420 with MPCT1 reticle at @Lowlight 's class last weekend and love it. Everything I want and nothing I don't need. Made consistent hits all the way to a mile and the zero held true. I'll be selling my Nightforce BEAST because of this thing now. Absolutely a home run!
2 more days before I see mine... 2 more days... having difficult deciding on slapping it on a gas gun or a bolt action.
Nice, would love to see an addendum to your TT - Minox - Schmidt - NF thread after you get some time with it.
Man I really want a 4-20 but I don't think I'm there yet.
@Wolfhunter Thank you very much!
Regarding a 1-8x option, this isn't in the works at this time. We are of course listening and taking notes though.
Regarding a 1-8x option, this isn't in the works at this time. We are of course listening and taking notes though.
Hope I'll find some time to do just that but I may end up doing a shorter comparison, between the ZCO 420, 527 and my TT.
Well....as long as we're adding to the wish list, I'll chime in. You gave us an alpha precision rifle/comp gun scope, an alpha ultra short, ....how about an alpha hunting scope? I'm thinking your exact scope--glass, turrets, MPCT1/MPCT2, etc. but in a 30mm tube with an anorexic goal (less than 25oz possible???). Maybe I'm asking too much, not a scope expert to know what's physically possible, but ya get my drift. Yeah, I'm beggin
Ergh. I need to stop opening random threads on this site. I now need to find a ZCO importer, have a 300PRC built and get another S&B to try out the new reticle. Is there a for sale section for selling organs?
I can typically get the ZC420 in a reasonable time frame, it's usually weeks instead of months
Why are 420s weeks out and 527s months?
I would guess the demand for the 5-27's is much higher and they are having a difficult time keeping up.
Just curious, what would ZCO give you that Swarovski, Leica, Zeiss, etc. don't already offer for good hunting scopes?
Decent elevation with proportioned turrets. Mil/mil FFP etc.
example: Swaro X5 has skyscrapers as turrets.
When I spoke with Mile High Mike last week he said they can't keep the 5-27's in stock. They're a great optic for PRS style shooters or anyone wanting that level of scope.
That's a good question, and to be honest with you I don't have a good answer specifically due to my lack of familiarity with the product lines you stated.
Once I find something I like, ideally that's all that I want to run. I feel the more uniform I keep my equipment the better things go in the field. For example for me the majority of my scopes are Nightforce with MOAR. I hated Mil-R, H59 and Tremor 3 were okay, was gonna go Mil-C until I seen MPCT2. Now when ZCO's came out with MPCT2 I started sweating bullets cause I knew I was going to be broke doing some changes.
So getting back to your question the best I can answer is that "they don't give me" MPCT2. Now ZCO also gives me top tier glass, locking turrets, locking diopter, full illuminated reticle with tree, forgiving parallax, etc., etc. These are all the features I would like in a hunting scope.... But without the weight of my tactical/ELR/comp rigs. Hence, I ask for a minny, skinny ZCO, to keep uniformity across my rigs. I guess this notion would be along the same lines as TT315M or this new TT315H.
Otherwise, if you could give me specific models that you feel are good from the stated product lines, I'd like to look at your suggestions. From there I could answer your question better.
If you want the same reticle in a lighter package you'll be hard pressed to find that with any manufacturer, especially if you want the scope in SFP (to help keep weight down). It's not an issue of whether or not they can do it rather it's more an issue of whether or not they'll get a return on investment. The market is "flooded" shall we say with quality "hunting" scopes that fit the criteria of having top tier glass; however, as you mentioned most are lacking good reticles, turrets, etc., but I think that is more driven by the ineptness of the hunting community and their reliance on "my grandpappy used this scope so it's good enough for me". Just look how popular the silly BDC reticles are still with SFP scopes, you see it everywhere and from everyone - the hunting community has bought into this idea that all ammunition performs the same and at all altitudes and atmospherics and in all rifles with different barrel lengths, etc. I am baffled at how many don't understand ballistics in this day and age. Vortex is one of the few companies who decided to tackle this issue with their AMG 6-24x50 which has received quite a bit of praise both within the community and without; however, go into most big box stores like Cabela's to their scope section, and ask someone looking for a new high end scope if they know what first focal plane is and I'd venture to say they will stare at your blankly, and those who do know what it is will clear their throats and tell you why FFP reticles are useless for hunting and how grandpappy used his Redfield for years and harvested thousands of deer with it. Obviously hunters have been successful long before any scopes were invented, the question falls more along the lines of how can new or different designs benefit the sportsman. For the hunter it has been drilled into so many heads that SFP is the way to go and duplex or sometimes BDC can be helpful, but these are usually individuals who have ignored the industry or don't understand the industry. Then you have to deal with point blank range, or the notion that flatter shooting cartridges give you a little more distance to stay within that kill zone of your game after you zero - while it's generally true that flatter shooting cartridges can offer a bit better point blank range it has nothing to do with the actual ballistics of that cartridge. Enter the 21st century and we now have ballistic calculators on our phones and other "more hardy" devices where you input your DOPE (another concept many hunters have no clue about) and a solution is presented based on your current atmospheric's, wind, etc. This is technology allowing you to shoot further with more confidence, but to take advantage of this technology you have to have a scope that is compatible with it and that's where having mil/mil or moa/moa turrets and reticle really come into play. For most manufacturer's they want to make the quick buck and they can usually do that by staying within the status quo, but who's really interested in changing the perception among a given community - how do you train or re-train thousands of shooters who don't even understand the benefits. Well, I think competitions like those promoted by PRS/NRL are helping for certain, as more and more shooters get interested in long range shooting and realize they can actually hit a target 1000 yards (and further) away, well they start getting interested in knowing how to do that, and do it consistently. This ultimately leads to being more educated about ballistics and of course FFP riflescopes with mil/mil or moa/moa turrets and reticles.
Okay, I'll get off my soapbox and get back to the subject. Swarovski, Zeiss, Leica, Schmidt & Bender all make phenomenal hunting scopes with Swarovski X5 and S&B leading the charge with better turrets than most. Premier even had their own "hunting" line for a while, and I'd be curious to learn how successful that was. But this is the competition that ZCO faces when it comes to high end "hunting" oriented scopes. That said, if ZCO were to come out with something similar to the Vortex AMG, keep it FFP, keep it mil/mil but drop the weight by about 10oz, well that would be something to write home about. There is a reason the AMG has such popularity and that is because it ticks all the boxes but keeps the weight under 30oz and that has a big appeal for a lot of us who like to use our FFP scopes on our hunting/long range rigs. I've been a huge proponent of this concept for many years and sometimes feel like I'm swimming upstream, but the more tier one FFP mil/mil optics we get that are lightweight the better IMO.
I would think a 1.5 if your running caps. In mediums on my bolt rifle with proof Sendero shown a few posts back, the cap will hit the barrel unless mounted sideways. If you run Tenebraex caps, you need the 1.5 for sure. No idea on the 1.26 on AR10 with mono rail though without caps..
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A couple of comments:
TT is making a Hunter scope.
Ballistic turret on Leica Magnus is very good.
S&B makes some excellent FFP hunting scopes. More importantly, they have a PM 2 version of the 3-12x54 Ultra Bright which could make a superb crossover scope with the right reticle. It use their low profile turret.
ILya
I heard that about TT, but when will this scope actually make it to market?
The ballistic drop is crap as far as I am concerned. It low brow marketing.
It ensures those of us that shoot thousands of rounds of year, have to have a “mental” shift. And those of us that know, it probably comes under the most exciting time there is.. Wouldn’t it be great just to have something that we practice with if not weekly, monthly?
Mil or Moa, but a third compromise??
It ensures those of us that shoot thousands of rounds of year, have to have a “mental” shift. And those of us that know, it probably comes under the most exciting time there is.. Wouldn’t it be great just to have something that we practice with if not weekly, monthly?
Mil or Moa, but a third compromise??
I agree with you 110%
"That said, if ZCO were to come out with something similar to the Vortex AMG, keep it FFP, keep it mil/mil but drop the weight by about 10oz, well that would be something to write home about. " ----This is exactly what I'm talking about!
How bout a "goal" spec sheet. I'll start....
Magnification: 3-18, 4-20, 2.5-15, 3-21, ???
Focal Plane: FFP
Objective outer diameter: 44-50mm
Field of view @100 yards: 40ft at low end mag
Internal adjustment range: 30 mil or more
Click value: .1 Mil-rad
Parallax adjustment: approx 10m
Tube diameter: 30mm
Weight: less than 25oz.
Reticles: MPCT1/MPCT2
Glass: ZCO'S
Turret: micro ZCO's (locking with reduced mass and 5 mils/rev)
Diopter: locking
Illumination: ZCO's
Please add/subtract/and or correct (I'm not an optical engineer).... I'm just talking out loud and wishful thinking
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Great list.
Finally my dream scope for hunting..
But Honestly most people are not going to pay the money.
3.6k a few happy people
2.5 a lot more
2k lots of people
Aadmount covers will just clear on a monolithic rail and 1.26” high RRS Mount (20 MOA cant). I really like the RRS Mount so far.
Is that touching? If not, wow that's close. Good looking rig!
Thanks. I just slid the objective on this evening. It’s touching the rail, but slides on/off nicely
I've been patching the idea of this scope to manufacturers for years. Some are more receptive than others. I think we will see something like this within a year or so.
Meopta Optika6 3-18x50 will get in the ballpark, but I hope to see others address this niche as well.
ILya
Meopta Optika6 3-18x50 will get in the ballpark, but I hope to see others address this niche as well.
ILya
I like it Squib, unfortunately to go to a 30mm tube they would have to re-design the optical formula, but would love to see a 4-20 for the hunting scope in 30mm. And I guess to clarify this is more of a crossover rather than a pure hunting scope, as I mentioned the "hunting scope" category is adequately covered by plenty of top tier manufacturers, but build a crossover in the 4-20 range with 30mm tube but keep it FFP with the current reticles and drop the weight below 30oz and you have a serious winner. To Diver's point, at $3500ish this would not have as much appear, but hopefully a 30mm version would cut down on cost of materials so maybe it could be priced below the $3k point and if so would have much more appeal as a crossover type of scope. TT is coming out with their "Hunter" but they essentially kept the 3-15 design, well 3-15 and 4-16 does not have much appeal to me, but a 4-20 range "lightweight" crossover style would have huge appeal, especially with the locking turrets, FFP and current ZCO reticles.
Well dangit Squib, now you've got me all excited about a scope that doesn't even exist. Tell us Nick, do you think this is even a possibility for ZCO to consider? We've been hoping the Vortex AMG group would come out with similar, but would love to see ZCO come out with this scope.
You will be okay to clear.
Guys, let them be for now. I assure you that they are looking at other future designs, but they are smart enough to first be focusing on getting the two they have moving smoothly.
ILya
^^^ Everytime I see a DTA covert I drool, but then I see the magazine and realize that until they get a better magazine I don't think I'll own one, sure would be nice if they could engineer a way to make AICS mags work with their bolt. Looks great and even better with the ZCO on top!
What's wing with DTA magazine other than the cost?
ILya
ILya
They are single stack and don’t work with my other rifles, the short action ones are huge, I understand why just wish they could figure out AICS compatibility
I Know it’s not a ZCO, but Nightforce has the nx8 2.5-20 that fits this bill.
I can see the bubble, although it is not 100% unobstructed. The optic sits a bit low; however, the bigger hindrance is the DT’s skins. You can see in the photos that the skins come together back behind the Picatinny rail and are raised a bit. This blocks my inline view. I can glance at the bubble from the side or with my non-dominant eye.
I’m going to be looking a a 4x20 mpct1 and then a 527 mpct2,
We still have crazy wait times?
We still have crazy wait times?
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