80gr ELDm are hit or miss with the Tikka 8 twists from researching various forums.

^ "Due to contracts."




At some point the AT-XC owners will realize that they just got a gen 4 AT-X, along with all of the promised support the previous generations of the AT-X got too. However, the didn't have to source a few of the niceties that most of us gen 1-3 guys had to hunt for. However it cost them ~$600 more for AI to do it.

Everywhere else you bundle and save. AI you bundle and spread cheeks.

beetroot said:

Does anyone have a 223 CTR or Varmint with a 24" barrel that can comment what velocity can be achieved with 70-90gr projectiles?
And can comment what the heaviest projectile they can run in the 8t barrel, I'm guessing 80.5gr Bergers are the best bet?

Was planning to rebarrel my Tikka but might just buy a 24" factory rifle.

Click to expand...

I have a Varmint that I had threaded for a suppressor. 75gr ELDM at 2.49" (AICS mags) with NAMMO 5.56 brass and H4895, 3025 fps.

Doom said:

@N_Turs, I wasn't familiar with the style of matches you were referring to but after looking them up they mirror some of our action shooting local matches. I am not sure exactly why you are so hung up on low recoil. It's one thing to look for low recoil due to physical impairment but if it's strictly for followup shot management I think you are looking at the wrong solution to a fundamental marksmanship issue. The AR by its very design is a light rifle and being a semi automatic has a fairly large amount of moving mass that contributes to the overall recoil. You can only reduce the recoil so much due to components as there are only limited choices and with your ammunition you have to maintain a safe load which will insure that the rifle functions properly. You must avoid any function issues or possible squib loads. Accuracy of the load is not critical if the distances are less than 50 yards.

I would try and find a varmint bullet in the 55 gr range to keep the cost low and have a good functioning bullet for the AR. I would use a varmint bullet instead of a FMJ because the have a lower tendency to ricochet. Open up your gas system to keep the ejection pattern in the 4 o'clock region. Load to the lowest charge that functions well in your rifle. I wouldn't go lower than 50 gr bullets.

Of the powders you mention I can't comment on how they will vary in terms of felt recoil since so much of the AR felt recoil is a function of the bolt movement. I think that you are worrying about something that won't be an issue with TAC. Temperature sensitivity isn't going to be an issue unless you are loading near maximum loads or leaving your ammunition in the sun. If that is an issue then I would look at single based powders. To minimize the powder/contribution to recoil I would consider my powder options by choosing the powders by looking at the powders that have the lowest charge weight at maximum (yes, max load) load. This is likely to give the lowest contribution to total recoil for your selected load.

Click to expand...

I understand that the gun still needs to function, Currently its set up with the lights carrier and buffer comp possible and the gas is turned way down. I don't think there's anything else to be done to reduce the mass any further. I currently have never had any issues with keeping it running using factor 55gr loads. I was just looking to possibly make a "gamer load" similar to what people do in steel challenge when power factor isn't an issue. Thank you for the recommendation on powder selection.

Dead Eye Dick said:

But Mke, the LS in our 2000 Corvette was one HECK of a Fine engine. Best engine I’ve ever owned.

Click to expand...

True, but even the Corvette guys are doing Coyote swaps now to outrun the Coyote guys.

MB

up

Dead Eye Dick said:

There’s three lesson’s in this statement.

First, though not really related, it’s never good to bring an old person into the conversation who lived the times when the event discussed was actually happening. You should be saying to ole Dead Eye, Shut up and sit down

Second, don’t sell what you like or you think is best, sell what the customer wants. In 1962 the perfect storm (for Remington) occurred. It’s the early 1960’s. Roy Weatherby has taken the world of firearms by storm. People wanted glitz, pretty, fancy. And here comes Winchester, plain wood, plain finish, simple action, construction that whether it occurred or not excluded Cheapness. They abandoned their core customers and went inexpensive but it looked cheap. Remington, put high gloss finish, butter smooth actions, really decent wood for the cost of the rifle and coated that wood for a 1960’s appreciative crowd with a finish that shined so brightly it blinded game. People flocked to the new 7mm with the shinny finish that emphasized nicely grained wood and actions whether inexpensive to make or not, flowed like melted butter. (Don’t belive me, come try Brenda’s 1975, old style BDL in 243. And that rifle can’t even compare to the first year XP100 we once owned.).

Third. This is my question. Despite its ease of manufacture, why has the 700 style action become the standard of accurate rifles? Why people shun the Mauser/Winchester CRF action when wanting a very accurate rifle? Yet I know that a CRF action can be accurate. My Ruger Model 77MKII in .35 Whelen can put all three shots in a cloverleaf with every shot touching. It’s nothing more than a hunting rifle. But still, throw out a question about using any of the big three CRF actions, (Mauser 98, Pre 64 Winchester, or late model Ruger) for Precision rifle or F Class and one will be kindly guided to a more common (R700 footprint) action.

So, for better or worse, despite its faults, the customer base is built on round bottom R700 style actions. Easy to make and as we all found out in the late 1990’s early 2000’s easy for the core company (remington) to muck up.

Call it cherry picked but who really wants to spend all day behind a full house .35 Whelen shooting ought-to-get-em powered loads trying to prove a point.

View attachment 8681343

So, it’s the easy button for R700 footprint. The Master, figures out how to make something really better that fits an established pattern. And at least one master has accomplished this, and I am proud to own one. (His initials MB)

Click to expand...

I'm aware of what all the marketing said (gun companies are really marketing companies that sell guns), but diving into the actual designs is a different story. And one can't deny, as has been demonstrated more than we can speak to, properly dealt with, a Rem700 will truly shoot.

MB

Pakistan says India has diverted the flow of Chenab River
While the river originates in India, it is one of three rivers under Pakistan’s control as per the Indus Water Treaty.


India begins 'reservoir flushing' on Kashmir dams after suspending water treaty with Pakistan

Modi vows to cut off river waters flowing to Pakistan
India's Prime Minister says water will be stopped for India's interests and utilised for India only.

Haha. yeah the devil is in the details, so we went off line to dive in ...

I'll let @CrazyDoc and @45cal4life describe their results, once they have results to report.

If @Gwood88 has a scenario to explore, I can add you to the PM ?

The thing is, each situation is different, no "one size fits all" solution ... there can be overlap between the solutions, but each solution needs to be looked at individually. Hence this thread would be a mess if we did it here and it was supposed to be an SOK product focus shift announcement
Different use cases, different hardware, etc.

Bump

RUN8 said:

I wonder if Frank can speak to the challenges of expanding the operation from a standpoint of getting a new employee trained?

Those are bare minimums, and some guys and gals never get good at it.

Click to expand...

Here is my take on it. For starters.... it really can come down to the person and how well they can grasp things and catch on. Some will get it faster than others. So it can be difficult to come up with a time frame and it can depend on the job they are doing as well.

Also it can come down to attitude. If a person comes in and they think they know everything and is not open to our way of doing things.... it's going to be a problem. There are no lone wolves here. If you have the lone wolf attitude... it's not going to be good.

Your last sentence really speaks to someone in rifling and I'll come back to this last.

We would prefer someone who can run manual machines as well as CNC. If all you know is CNC and that's what the schools are primarily teaching now a days... I'll say your no good to us. OK maybe I shouldn't say that but I maybe it should be.... we won't have as much as the warm fuzzy's with hiring someone like that. If all a person knows is CNC than more often than not... you don't have feel or working knowledge when a problem would hit you and how to solve it.

To teach someone in gun drilling the way we do it...I'd say 6 months at a minimum before they are somewhat comfortable but will still need help with things. Then I'd say your looking at about 1-2 years where they are really good and on they're own.

Contouring the barrels in a CNC lathe... probably the easiest for someone to catch on. Still knowing manual lathe skills will help you. Time wise for someone to be comfortable that really never did it and we have to teach them... I'll say... a good month for the mechanics if they are the type of person that can catch on fast and good at taking notes for doing the basics. Then it's a matter of time for learning more complicated things in regards to turning.

Bore reaming and prelapping with the hone... fairly easy to learn.... it's paying attention to sizes and finishes is the key here.

Rifling.... This is more complicated. Making and sharpening tools will be the longest to learn. I can't even put a time frame on it. It's one of those things.... you have to do it a lot and do it often to get really good at it. A person could run the rifling machine and help out do rifling but might not be able to make a tool or sharpen a tool. Paying attention to sizes and finish are important but that can be learned pretty quickly. Finish lapping a barrel..... this is good one.. if you don't have feel... the person will never get it and than it cannot be taught. Either you have it or you don't. Years ago Tracy hired a tool and die maker when we were at Krieger to do rifling. Tracy was teaching him. After two and half days... the guy grabbed his lunch box at first break... shook Tracy's hand and told him... " I'll never get this and I'm wasting your time. Thanks for giving me a try." He turned and walked out the door.

With all that being said... I'm back to the lone wolf person. No lone wolves! Everyone here regardless of time and or experience... If you question anything... you bring it up to someone else and say hey.... take a look at this.... what do you think? You don't just push something along. Sometimes one person might see something and someone else might not see it. There are times there might be three or four of us looking at something. Everyone can double check someone else without anyone getting they're feathers ruffled. I've been walking thru the shop... see ammunition test barrels that are pretty much done and I'll take a look at the inspection report. If I question anything I'll grab gauges and double check them or throw it on the bore scope, look down the bore etc...and will even go back to the guy that rifled it or them... and say let's double check this. No one takes offense to it.

That reminds me of another skilled that is learned over time... just what a guy learns by looking down the bore of the barrel. Guys here can pick things up with they're naked eye where as the average person looks down the bore and says... looks good but they have no clue what they are looking at or even seeing. Even using a bore scope might not show you things that your naked eye can pick up. This simple visual thing of looking down the bore of the barrel.. it's not learned in a week or a month or a year... it's learned over an extended period of time.

Former Cav said:

you know, when you get involved in various "matches" where you are using LIGHT loads, you are setting yourself up for failure.
What is the purpose of the matches? training? bragging rights?
The lightest load I'd shoot in that 100 yard match is the cheap factory loads that are 55 grain ball unless they have "requirements" that specify something else.
You aren't going to use "those target loads" for DEFENSE I hope.
That 55 grain load from 1968 left a LOT TO BE DESIRED when it came to putting down the enemy!! I was there and experienced it first hand.

Click to expand...

Where did I say I wanted to use them for self defense? And yes bragging rights, Im not a door kicker and any "Training" is just to get better at the shooting that I do. Unlike some I do not pretend to be an operator or have imaginary thoughts of how I will be using my rifle in a defensive situation. Clearly you don't shoot the run and gun matches. You know alot of people down load 9mm for steel challenge, kinda was just looking to see if others have done the same in 223/556.

I’ll take this.

joe777 said:

A light buffer will make a difference too

Click to expand...

Guns built about as light as it can get in regards to the buffer.

samb300 said:

I can guarantee that if you get rid of the AI there will be a point that you wish you had kept it

Click to expand...

I agree. I've been there myself multiple times now because I like punishment, LOL.

Firestarter123 said:

I’d doubt it as there have never been any spare bolts available for the AT-XC that I’ve ever seen.

You’d have to be really, really committed to make your rifle magnum only at this point I’d think.

Click to expand...

Definitely no XC bolts, and from the sound of it, none expected in the next year either, due to contracts.

SPF

Hgrubbs22 said:

Cheaper, meaning it was easier to manufacture is quantity?

Click to expand...

Yes, the Rem700 has always been a price point rifle, meaning that cost to manufacture was really low. I used to buy stripped short action receivers for $53 and bolt bodies for slightly more; all in to start a build on the action was around $120 or so.

The retail price of rifles from Remington was considerably lower than all the competition, which is what led to the popularity, not the quality, features, and so on. Based on shear numbers out there, just like the Rem 870, Ruger 10/22, AR15's, Glock's, is what has led to mass adoption by consumers. They're cheap, parts are cheap and plentiful and one can buy the stuff anywhere.

Editing to add, the Rem700 is also easy to copy .

And, @carbonbased, so help me, if you bring up the LS vs Coyote debate....don't even....Coyote all the way.

MB

@N_Turs, I wasn't familiar with the style of matches you were referring to but after looking them up they mirror some of our action shooting local matches. I am not sure exactly why you are so hung up on low recoil. It's one thing to look for low recoil due to physical impairment but if it's strictly for followup shot management I think you are looking at the wrong solution to a fundamental marksmanship issue. The AR by its very design is a light rifle and being a semi automatic has a fairly large amount of moving mass that contributes to the overall recoil. You can only reduce the recoil so much due to components as there are only limited choices and with your ammunition you have to maintain a safe load which will insure that the rifle functions properly. You must avoid any function issues or possible squib loads. Accuracy of the load is not critical if the distances are less than 50 yards.

I would try and find a varmint bullet in the 55 gr range to keep the cost low and have a good functioning bullet for the AR. I would use a varmint bullet instead of a FMJ because the have a lower tendency to ricochet. Open up your gas system to keep the ejection pattern in the 4 o'clock region. Load to the lowest charge that functions well in your rifle. I wouldn't go lower than 50 gr bullets.

Of the powders you mention I can't comment on how they will vary in terms of felt recoil since so much of the AR felt recoil is a function of the bolt movement. I think that you are worrying about something that won't be an issue with TAC. Temperature sensitivity isn't going to be an issue unless you are loading near maximum loads or leaving your ammunition in the sun. If that is an issue then I would look at single based powders. To minimize the powder/contribution to recoil I would consider my powder options by choosing the powders by looking at the powders that have the lowest charge weight at maximum (yes, max load) load. This is likely to give the lowest contribution to total recoil for your selected load.

When the Fire Base was about to be over run by the enemy, he met them with a Bayonet & an Assault Rifle!
When asked to conjure in one’s imagination the image of a fearless soldier, fighting with fervent ferocity in hand-to-hand combat and battling relentlessly against wave after wave of attacks despite suffering multiple wounds, one would not usually associate the image of such a warrior with the stereotype of a college mathematics major or an aspiring priest.
Yet in the heat of a close quarters battle, in the thick of a furious firefight in which life and death hang by the most fragile and tenuous of threads, stereotypes often fall to pieces, and indeed can be blown completely apart.
The math major and aspiring priest in question was Major General (then Lieutenant Colonel) Charles Calvin Rogers, and the battle in which he earned a Medal of Honor for his tremendous valor, fortitude, and courage occurred in the Vietnam War, on November 1, 1968.
Rogers had joined the United States Army in 1952. By the time of his tour of duty in Vietnam, he was serving as the commanding officer of 1st Battalion, 5th Artillery, 1st Infantry Division.
In 1968 he was thirty-nine years old, and while he had served in the army for some years, front line combat was not something he had seen very much of, at least not up until the fateful evening of October 31.
That, however, was something that would change very drastically when the clock ticked past midnight that night. Stationed at Fire Base Rita, a forward fire base in the jungle near the Cambodian border, Charles Rogers’ main duty was to provide artillery support to infantry.
Little did he know that he and the artillery troops under his command would end up involved in as ferocious and savage a bout of fighting as any jungle patrol was likely to see.
Shortly after midnight, the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) launched an all-out assault on Fire Base Rita, determined to overrun it and take control of the artillery weapons stationed there.
If this objective proved unattainable, then their secondary goal was chillingly simple: obliterate the fire base entirely, along with all American troops there.
In the dead of night, Fire Base Rita was subjected to a sudden and vicious bombardment of mortars, rockets and RPGs, launched from the surrounding jungle.
As if the mortar and rocket assault wasn’t terrifying enough, the surreal red glow of hundreds of flares revealed an even more horrifying spectacle: a full frontal infantry assault was being launched.
Hundreds of battle-hardened North Vietnamese troops poured out of the jungle in waves in a near-suicidal frenzy, utterly determined to overrun the base, whatever the cost.
Lieutenant-Colonel Rogers, however, displayed unflappable calm in the face of this madness, and set about directing and positioning his howitzer batteries to counter the ground assault with anti-personnel fire and return mortar fire at the NVA positions.
Despite his best efforts, however, NVA combat engineers made it to a section of the American barricade, and managed to blow open that section of the outer defenses with explosives. Now that the perimeter had been breached, there was an imminent danger that the fire base would indeed be completely overrun.
Rogers, however, was determined to prevent this from happening. Picking up his helmet and his M-16, he charged straight across to the front line position, rallying the troops who had been dazed by the force of the explosions and personally redirecting howitzer fire to the appropriate positions.
An enemy mortar round exploded near him, knocking him off his feet and wounding him with shrapnel, but he got up immediately and led a charge against the NVA troops pouring into the base.
Despite being wounded, Rogers got into the thick of the fighting, personally killing a number of the enemy and helping drive the others out of the base.
Once this first wave of attackers had been repelled, he and his men set about patching the breached defenses. Owing to the urgent nature of this task, Rogers refused medical assistance for his wounds–keeping his men alive and keeping the base in American hands was his only concern.
Sure enough, as expected, the NVA launched another furious assault on the base. Again Rogers led from the front, engaging in ferocious close range firefights with the enemy while moving along the line and providing encouragement to his beleaguered troops. Again, against all odds, he and his men were able to repel the assault.
The NVA were still not ready to admit defeat, however. They launched a third assault at dawn.
Yet again Fire Base Rita was subjected to a hail of mortar, rocket and RPG fire, and as before, this was accompanied by a wave of infantry pouring out of the jungle. Again, under heavy fire, Rogers directed his howitzer counter-fire with collected precision.
Even when a Vietnamese heavy mortar round burst on his gun parapet, riddling his body with shrapnel and rendering him unable to continue fighting, he kept on yelling out support and encouragement to his troops, who ultimately managed to hold the line.
Thanks to Rogers’ courageous leadership and refusal to yield even in the face of near-certain destruction, Fire Base Rita remained in American hands.
In 1970, Rogers was awarded the Medal of Honor for his valor during this battle. Having this highest honor bestowed on him was undoubtedly one of the highlights of a long and proud military career–a path he had been inspired to take by his father, who had served in the First World War.
In addition to relentlessly battling whatever enemies he encountered on the battlefield, Rogers also fought tirelessly for other noble causes.
Despite initially facing discrimination, which Rogers described as “overt,” from both his fellow soldiers and commanding officers, he kept his chin up and served with pride, retaining his unflagging determination to be the best he could be.
In the process, Charles Calvin Rogers proved the critics – those who were opposed to desegregation of the military, claiming it would decrease fighting effectiveness – wrong.
Not only did Rogers lead by proud example, but as his career advanced and he gained more clout in the Armed Forces, he also made it a personal priority to ensure there were equal opportunities in career development and promotions for both minorities and women in the US Army.
Rogers retired from the Army in 1984, after having attained the rank of Major General. During his career he was decorated with the Purple Heart, the Bronze Star (with three oak leaf clusters), the Distinguished Flying Cross, the Legion of Merit, and the Medal of Honor, among other medals.
This hero passed away in 1990.

Gonna be some FALs coming out of the back of the safe.

Bump

Bump