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Accessories Swiss Sig stocks. Black/Green.
- By kb1
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 5 Replies
1-new green Swiss Sig folding stock. Compete with pin and spring washer. $350 shipped.
1-lightly used black Swiss Sig folding stock. No pin or spring washer. $325 shipped.
1-lightly used black Swiss Sig folding stock. No pin or spring washer. $325 shipped.
Flare / Glare / Backlit notes on 4 scopes (NX8 4-32, Razor Gen II 4.5-27, Razor LHT 4.5-22, S&B 5-25)
- By carbonbased
- Observation & Sighting Devices
- 22 Replies
Here is an unscientific (and flawed) BACKLIT flare resistance test of four scopes I own. I aimed them under a setting sun during one single session.
It’s flawed in the way that I didn’t have shades for two of the scopes. Plus dust, flare from improvised sunshades, and possible flare from a rifle support on the S&B (see next post on the latter).
But I’m still posting this for general interest and discussion…and I find I learn the most from stuff I did wrong.
Just so we’re clear, the flare I’m discussing isn’t headlights of a car coming at you or a white wall behind the subject.
Edit: rereading this word salad, I decided to just post the results up front in a table for clarity.
WHY?
I frequently shoot into the sun when out in the pdog fields (500-600yds max) or shooting smaller ground squirrels.
For me, after meeting some arbitrary level of sharpness and contrast, a scope’s flare resistance is the most important quality. Incidentally, as temps are usually scorching, on my scale mirage performance is next in importance.
Behold, the flare test cometh…from best to worst:
I only noticed a little bit of blowout/lightening occurring in the lower right of the image.
Clean objective lens.
With a shade, the image only slightly improved.
The shade for the NF was a hand-held Razor LHT’s shade up to the objective as I don’t own the NF shade (and I couldn’t screw the Vortex’s in). I made sure there were no light gaps.
Interestingly, a black-lined neoprene can cooler (aka can koozie) didn’t work and, in fact, made the image worse (i.e. more whitish, blown out).
Note the sparkle typical of black neoprene. Btw the light angle here is not unlike the angle of the sun during the test. Shown here on the S&B.
Extended as in the test, again on the S&B (btw, obv the AIAT’s barrel is out being cleaned).
NOTES:
I was very surprised by the NF’s superior flare resistance! But maybe I shouldn’t have been (my previous weird accidental flare/glare test link 1, link 2).
In this most recent test, the NX8 had the most contrast and what I’m calling sharpness. In other words, I could immediately tell what I was looking at (a deer, a rock) and I could see spots and colors on the subject.
With its long shade, as mentioned it roughly tied with a naked NX8.
★ HOWEVER, after the test I noticed that the objective lens was pretty dusty. @koshkin how much would that mess with this sort of test? Note that the eyepiece was clean, but I doubt that detail would matter here.
Closeup. Note I had a different, slightly less dusty Razor’s pics up before. I need to clean some scopes!
With its shade, it was maybe an half-step down compared to the naked NX8 and shaded dusty Razor G2. Tough call.
★ As noted, the LHT’s objective was equivalently as dusty as the Razor G2’s, but I neglected to snap a pic.
It was bought new in the last couple of years. Rubber mag ring, not the lastest mechanical revision but AFAIK uses the same glass & coatings.
Clean objective lens.
With a shade, well…here is a big flaw in my test. For some reason, I don’t think I held the G2 Razor’s shade up to the S&B.
However, I did try a very long improvised shade, but it was a piece of Cordura in Ranger Green and it barely improved anything and sometimes made it worse.
And, as with the NF, the black-lined neoprene can koozie sucked (didn’t do anything or made it worse).
I can only imagine a proper S&B dead flat black shade would’ve significantly improved the image.
NOTES:
Really quite surprising. I know it’s an older design, but if one takes just the shadeless comparison into account, the S&B is blown out of the water here. Just wow.
All the more surprising because in perfect conditions and at first glance, to my eye the S&B’s image is ROUGHLY tied with my NX8 sample.
Looking more carefully, I note that in great conditions I find the S&B is actually a little better than the NF ($$$ it should be too); it has more pleasing colors and no chromatic aberration (NX8 has a tiny bit, sometimes). But the NF seems to resolve a tiny bit better and has a much shallower DOF.
I’ve read that shallow DOF might help reading mirage, while deep DOF helps with seeing trace.
In perfect conditions, the NF and S&B are both sharper than the Vortexes.
Perhaps I got super lucky with my copy of the NX8 4-32? Or my 5-25 sucks? Or maybe the state of the art has just moved that far forward? Or NF simply prioritizes flare resistance? Or all four lol
The test was conducted at 20x, 25x, and also at whatever the scope’s max magnification was. This is important because when zoomed out to, say 5x, all of the scope‘s images cleaned up massively.
SUBJECT
I was looking at a very tame deer at 530yds and at a big rock at ~350yds. Both were in the shade. The deer hung around forever, like 15-20 minutes. Handy!
WHERE WAS THE SUN? HOW DARK?
Roughly at 10:30 (upper left), and positioned a bit above the treeline. I was aimed down at -3°.
Sun was not visible through the scope…or I’d be blind lol. It also wasn’t positioned just beyond the edge the image “disk” either. Meaning this test wasn’t some ultimate torture test or an edge case. It was a typical condition that I face.
Darkness: somewhere between 5-630pm CST local time in Wisconsin. It was bright, sun almost in your eyes (but not like driving into the sun), and it was not dusk or twilight. Below is what time the dusk(s) are in that area on the test day, which was Sunday Sept 15, 2024.
I needed a hand to block the sun just so I could see a decent image through the scopes. I knew this going in, of course, as it happens regularly in these conditions but nonetheless, it really wears your eye and brain out.
On binoculars I use a Bino Bandit for this problem and they are excellent!
Typically I pull my hat down for eye shade, but sometimes this simply doesn’t work. It’s like that fucking little gap that all car sun visors inevitably have…always a stray irritating ray of light hitting your pupil!
I know there are accordion-like rubber eyecups for scopes, typically seen on some older Russian optics (SVD lol video games) or on some NV or thermals.
If anyone has a link to a Bino Bandit-like device for scopes or to a rubber scope thingy, please post it below.
Finally, I’ll be buying some shades for my two scopes without them. And maybe some ARD’s to test as well…
FINALLY
Do let me know about your own S&B 5-25 flare experiences and note if you used a shade or ARD and try to say what magnification you were at. The last bit matters a lot!
And while you’re at it, also interested to hear about flare in other higher-end scopes.
It’s flawed in the way that I didn’t have shades for two of the scopes. Plus dust, flare from improvised sunshades, and possible flare from a rifle support on the S&B (see next post on the latter).
But I’m still posting this for general interest and discussion…and I find I learn the most from stuff I did wrong.
Just so we’re clear, the flare I’m discussing isn’t headlights of a car coming at you or a white wall behind the subject.
Edit: rereading this word salad, I decided to just post the results up front in a table for clarity.
RESULTS
No Hood, Naked Lens, 20x and above
Rank | Scope | Notes |
#1 | NF NX8 4-32 | extremely good, v. slight partial fading |
#2 (tie) | Razor 4.5-27 G2 | image very blown out, but dusty objective (effect?) |
#2 (tie) | Razor LHT 4.5-22 | image very blown out, but dusty objective (effect?) |
#3 | S&B 5-25 | Utterly and massively blown out. Bad. |
With Hood Installed, 20x and above
Rank | Scope | Notes |
#1 | NF NX8 4-32 | Used LHT Razor hood handheld. Slight improvement over no hood. |
#2 | Razor 4.5-27 G2 | v. slight partial fading, but dusty objective (effect?). Roughly tied with a naked NX8. |
#3 | Razor LHT 4.5-22 | tiny bit worse than Razor G2, but dusty objective (effect?) |
??? | S&B 5-25 | N/a, didn’t have a shade and forgot to handhold one in front…d’oh |
WHY?
I frequently shoot into the sun when out in the pdog fields (500-600yds max) or shooting smaller ground squirrels.
For me, after meeting some arbitrary level of sharpness and contrast, a scope’s flare resistance is the most important quality. Incidentally, as temps are usually scorching, on my scale mirage performance is next in importance.
Behold, the flare test cometh…from best to worst:
#1 NX8 4-32
No shade, the NF (very recent copy) was the no-shade winner by a loooong shot. Naked, it tied with the shaded (but dusty) Razor Gen2 4.5-27! See the G2 section about the dust.I only noticed a little bit of blowout/lightening occurring in the lower right of the image.
Clean objective lens.
With a shade, the image only slightly improved.
The shade for the NF was a hand-held Razor LHT’s shade up to the objective as I don’t own the NF shade (and I couldn’t screw the Vortex’s in). I made sure there were no light gaps.
Interestingly, a black-lined neoprene can cooler (aka can koozie) didn’t work and, in fact, made the image worse (i.e. more whitish, blown out).
Note the sparkle typical of black neoprene. Btw the light angle here is not unlike the angle of the sun during the test. Shown here on the S&B.
Extended as in the test, again on the S&B (btw, obv the AIAT’s barrel is out being cleaned).
NOTES:
I was very surprised by the NF’s superior flare resistance! But maybe I shouldn’t have been (my previous weird accidental flare/glare test link 1, link 2).
In this most recent test, the NX8 had the most contrast and what I’m calling sharpness. In other words, I could immediately tell what I was looking at (a deer, a rock) and I could see spots and colors on the subject.
#2 (tie) dusty Razor Gen II 4.5-27
No shade, the image blew out significantly, making it quite hard to tell what I was looking at. I could still make out the deer if I bobbed my head around a little. As with the other scopes, blow-out was worse on the lower right. It tied with its (also dusty) LHT cousin for 2nd best.With its long shade, as mentioned it roughly tied with a naked NX8.
★ HOWEVER, after the test I noticed that the objective lens was pretty dusty. @koshkin how much would that mess with this sort of test? Note that the eyepiece was clean, but I doubt that detail would matter here.
Closeup. Note I had a different, slightly less dusty Razor’s pics up before. I need to clean some scopes!
#2 (tie) dusty Razor LHT 4.5-22
No shade, same as the dusty G2 Razor, tied for 2nd best.With its shade, it was maybe an half-step down compared to the naked NX8 and shaded dusty Razor G2. Tough call.
★ As noted, the LHT’s objective was equivalently as dusty as the Razor G2’s, but I neglected to snap a pic.
#3 S&B 5-25
No shade, wow…couldn’t see a damn thing! Whole image was a very bright sparkling dance party! Bad. (Edit: see next post for possible mitigating factor)It was bought new in the last couple of years. Rubber mag ring, not the lastest mechanical revision but AFAIK uses the same glass & coatings.
Clean objective lens.
With a shade, well…here is a big flaw in my test. For some reason, I don’t think I held the G2 Razor’s shade up to the S&B.
However, I did try a very long improvised shade, but it was a piece of Cordura in Ranger Green and it barely improved anything and sometimes made it worse.
And, as with the NF, the black-lined neoprene can koozie sucked (didn’t do anything or made it worse).
I can only imagine a proper S&B dead flat black shade would’ve significantly improved the image.
NOTES:
Really quite surprising. I know it’s an older design, but if one takes just the shadeless comparison into account, the S&B is blown out of the water here. Just wow.
All the more surprising because in perfect conditions and at first glance, to my eye the S&B’s image is ROUGHLY tied with my NX8 sample.
Looking more carefully, I note that in great conditions I find the S&B is actually a little better than the NF ($$$ it should be too); it has more pleasing colors and no chromatic aberration (NX8 has a tiny bit, sometimes). But the NF seems to resolve a tiny bit better and has a much shallower DOF.
I’ve read that shallow DOF might help reading mirage, while deep DOF helps with seeing trace.
In perfect conditions, the NF and S&B are both sharper than the Vortexes.
Perhaps I got super lucky with my copy of the NX8 4-32? Or my 5-25 sucks? Or maybe the state of the art has just moved that far forward? Or NF simply prioritizes flare resistance? Or all four lol
TEST DESCRIPTION
MAGNIFICATION (impt!)The test was conducted at 20x, 25x, and also at whatever the scope’s max magnification was. This is important because when zoomed out to, say 5x, all of the scope‘s images cleaned up massively.
SUBJECT
I was looking at a very tame deer at 530yds and at a big rock at ~350yds. Both were in the shade. The deer hung around forever, like 15-20 minutes. Handy!
WHERE WAS THE SUN? HOW DARK?
Roughly at 10:30 (upper left), and positioned a bit above the treeline. I was aimed down at -3°.
Sun was not visible through the scope…or I’d be blind lol. It also wasn’t positioned just beyond the edge the image “disk” either. Meaning this test wasn’t some ultimate torture test or an edge case. It was a typical condition that I face.
Darkness: somewhere between 5-630pm CST local time in Wisconsin. It was bright, sun almost in your eyes (but not like driving into the sun), and it was not dusk or twilight. Below is what time the dusk(s) are in that area on the test day, which was Sunday Sept 15, 2024.
Findings
- Black neoprene (internally) can koozies might actually make flare worse! My sample did, anyway.
- Ditto for a Ranger Green tube of Cordura.
- 3 of 4 scopes improved with manufacturer metal shades attached. One scope is inconclusive (S&B 5-25) due to a testing error.
- One scope (NF NX8 4-32) barely improved, But it had the best flare resistance to start with.
- Fairly significant amounts of dust on the objective might have more impact than I first thought. Maybe.
- Higher magnification really accentuates the problem. At 20x+ a hood is critical for many scopes.
Questions
- How much does dust on the objective contribute to flare? (I know this is an imprecise question, but work with me)
- Does light bounce around enough in a Ranger Green Cordura tube or a can koozie to render them basically useless for a riflescope shade (at best)? Sure seems like it.
- (Added later) Did a light-colored rifle support contribute to a poor S&B test result? See next post for explanation.
Next steps
- Retest all with manufacturer hoods
- Try lower magnifications too
- Test with clean objective lenses on the two dirty scopes
- Use tripods for ALL rifles (vs having just one on a x-shaped sandbag and the others on tripods) to eliminate extraneous rifle support flare. Again, see next post.
I needed a hand to block the sun just so I could see a decent image through the scopes. I knew this going in, of course, as it happens regularly in these conditions but nonetheless, it really wears your eye and brain out.
On binoculars I use a Bino Bandit for this problem and they are excellent!
Typically I pull my hat down for eye shade, but sometimes this simply doesn’t work. It’s like that fucking little gap that all car sun visors inevitably have…always a stray irritating ray of light hitting your pupil!
I know there are accordion-like rubber eyecups for scopes, typically seen on some older Russian optics (SVD lol video games) or on some NV or thermals.
If anyone has a link to a Bino Bandit-like device for scopes or to a rubber scope thingy, please post it below.
Finally, I’ll be buying some shades for my two scopes without them. And maybe some ARD’s to test as well…
FINALLY
Do let me know about your own S&B 5-25 flare experiences and note if you used a shade or ARD and try to say what magnification you were at. The last bit matters a lot!
And while you’re at it, also interested to hear about flare in other higher-end scopes.
SOLD Area 419 Master Funnel Kit and Billet block
- By Walker TR
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 1 Replies
Attachments
Accessories WTS- KRG Bravo Rem700S/A stock w/Alpha forend
- By Sam19kilo
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 6 Replies
Attachments
SOLD MDT ACC premium chassis one with full weight kit
- By Spd37
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 7 Replies
Attachments
SOLD ***SOLD***Demko AD20.5 S35VN Shark Foot Carbon Fiber
- By JBSTRD
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 0 Replies
I have a brand new in package Demko AD20.5 with S35VN Shark Foot blade and Carbon Fiber scales. Comes as new from Demko with plastic tube and extra lefty pocket clip. Never cut/carried and factory sharp.
Asking $155 shipped
Only trade would be for a Protech Malibu
PayPal FF, Venmo or Zelle for payment
Asking $155 shipped
Only trade would be for a Protech Malibu
PayPal FF, Venmo or Zelle for payment
SOLD CMC flat single stage
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 1 Replies
$80 shipped. Will ship with standard trigger pins
Accessories Knights Armament USMC Micro Rear Folding Sight and Forward
- By Grand
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 3 Replies
1. Used USMC Marked Knights Micro Folding BUIS: $125
2. Used Knights Vertical Grip - still has some krylon on it but works fine. $45
2. Used Knights Vertical Grip - still has some krylon on it but works fine. $45
Attachments
Accessories Hill People & Eagle Industries Stock Pack/ Eagle Active Shooter Carrier
- By Grand
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 4 Replies
Attachments
Night Vision New Refurb NVD Binos Gen 3 GP $3900
- By kmc0929
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 1 Replies
Attachments
Accessories Garmin Xero C1 Pro + Kestrel 5700 - Foam Insert - Apache 550 Case
- By geeoff
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 29 Replies
Attachments
SOLD Ace Brake 30 Cal fits 6.5mm and 6mm Stainless New
- By Walker TR
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 6 Replies
Attachments
SOLD Manners SA Pro Hunters w/ MICRO CHASSIS **UPDATED 10/31**
- By Redvanes
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 25 Replies
Manners Pro Hunters
Short Action Rem 700 & Clones
Proof Sendero Barrel Contour
*NEW* M5 Micro Chassis
2 flush Cups Left Side
$1100 FIRM SHIPPED
1 - SOLD
2 - SWAMP - 13.5" - LOP - 1/2" PAD
3 - SOLD
4 - SOLD
5 - SOLD
Short Action Rem 700 & Clones
Proof Sendero Barrel Contour
*NEW* M5 Micro Chassis
2 flush Cups Left Side
$1100 FIRM SHIPPED
1 - SOLD
2 - SWAMP - 13.5" - LOP - 1/2" PAD
3 - SOLD
4 - SOLD
5 - SOLD
SOLD Vector IV Viper II Bluetooth LRF
- By Randall3rd
- Buy - Sell - Trade
- 5 Replies
Looking to sell my Vector IV Viper II LRF. Excellent condition. Awesome range finder, have used it out to 2k+ yards.
360 degree compass
Class 1 100% Eye Safe
7x magnification
6km max range
1550 laser
Includes everything in the picture (Bag, ARD, cable, field firing solutions SD card, extra battery, instructions)
***SOLD***
**SOLD***
360 degree compass
Class 1 100% Eye Safe
7x magnification
6km max range
1550 laser
Includes everything in the picture (Bag, ARD, cable, field firing solutions SD card, extra battery, instructions)
***SOLD***
**SOLD***
