Was up at the range today, and they told me that they got back their first eForm, and it was NOT the first one they submitted. The very first one submitted still has not come back from January. But this one was from March 25, and it was approved May 17. So, that gives me hope that maybe my first eForm will come back fairly quickly.
Spent three hours on hold today with the shop attempting to certify and was told at the end of hour three that the system was down and we could try again tomorrow. Allegedly the guy ahead of me this morning went through no problem.
When I did it, the first time I called, the site wouldn't work right and wouldn't load. He said to call him back in an hour and we will try again. I called back, and it worked just fine.
That’s pretty common with the system…the shop isn’t just yanking your chain.
This whole "certification" shit is retarded. Honestly, who does it benefit? Nobody... And what does it actually prove that a DocuSign and all the other submitted information didn't? Not a goddamn thing.
It's just another stupid bureaucratic hoop to jump through that is causing massive train wrecks in the system and deterring people from getting their paperwork submitted so they can obtain their own personal property. The NFA shouldn't exist, the ATF shouldn't exist, and we shouldn't be having to do any of this shit for a chunk of metal that fits on the end of a gun, and is not a firearm. But, we don't live in a perfect society anymore.
I hope they eventually see how stupid this "certification" process actually is, and do away with it, and just allow us to DocuSign like we did before, but still submit the paperwork electronically for a much faster processing time.
Do you understand what DocuSign accomplishes? You sign the docs via email and all that did was get that information back to Silencer Shop and then they had to revert to the antiquated process of printing it off, then into an envelope with a stamp and mail to ATF. Then it takes 30 to 60 days for ”check cashed” to occur. That’s not because it takes the postal service up to 60 days to get it to ATF, it’s because it sets in piles of 1000’s of other envelopes waiting to be opened and that’s why it takes so long to show that the check has been cashed. So DocuSign information by paper submission is simply a data packet that via US Mail gets it into ATF possession.
Certification that you say is stupid and you think should be done away with; that Certification IS what get’s the data packet into ATF possession electronically and that 3 hour inconvenience, or having to call back a little later or maybe even the next day to get that Certification data packet into the ATF system is MUCH faster, than the 30 to 60 day snail mail/setting in the pile option.
If you use TurboTax because it’s faster, when you are at the “submit return” page when that‘s done a data packet is sent electronically to the IRS and until that‘s done that data packet does not get into IRS possession for processing. It’s the exact same thing with Certification - it’s an electronic submission of data. Don’t submit a tax return data packet - no refund; don’t do an electronic data packet for a can - no stamp, ever. What you are suggesting by doing away with the stupid (as you call it) certification shows you have no understanding what it accomplishes in saving up to 60 days off approval time by not mailing.
Certification = ELECTRONIC data packet submission; without that ”shit is retarded” (as you call it) step no one gets their stamp. Who does it benefit? Everyone.
You sound like a rube.
You can go back to the paper process that does not involve the overly confusing term of “Certification” and you won’t have to deal with electronic waiting for a few hours, just the slightly longer paper submission process. Maybe expand your knowledge there is a reason tens of millions of people use TurboTax and no longer mail their returns and it is the same reason people will prefer the electronic submission (certification) of cans.
A competent gun trust lawyer and trust accountant will tell you this is a grey area bordering on illegal.
Ok, so why can they not seem to streamline the certification process like Turbo Tax, instead of it requiring all 3 systems being online simultaneously, and jumping through a bunch of hoops, and doing a bunch of “Captcha” things, etc…?
I’ve already proven who I am with my fingerprints, my SSN, my demographic information, my picture, and my DL number, etc… and the FBI background check Yall perform confirms that I am who I say I am, and the DocuSigning of my Trust and paperwork is my electronic signature verifying to you, or certifying, that I am who I say I am. So why is there any need to extra “certify”?
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im not a lawyer, but i would say if the ATF/DOJ found out about it, they would take you to jail/court and throw whatever book they can find at you.
i dont want to try it, because you may beat the rap, but not the ride.
First of all, who is the larger government entity? ATF/NFA that is a part of DOJ, or IRS that is part of the Department of Treasury? IRS is charged with collecting and disbursing TRILLIONS of dollars each year that impacts every business, government entity, citizen and by extension the entire US economy. In contrast, NFA is tiny, tiny in comparison. The fact that the certification is going this smoothly is excellent, sure there have been issues. I had to call back to certify another can because of the “spinning wheel” and it went fine the next day. People have such an incredibly short memory from the year plus wait for paper submissions to “gee the certification didn’t work for me and I had to call back in.” If you had to call back in over several attempts over several days to get certified you‘re still a helluva lot better off than Docusign going back to SilencerShop and them mailing your packet to ATF and it setting for months at ATF until someone opens your packet.
”Captcha,” likely came as an additional requirement from ATF to use the ATF API and why was that? You commented in one of your recent posts you did your first eform submission on March 17th, so you may not have received the email from ATF, but it was sent to everyone I am guessing with an ATF.gov account on February 2nd restating each account holder is responsible to not share their User ID and PIN with anyone. I certified the first time in late January and Captcha was not part of that submission. However, when I certified again in early February for another can Captcha had been added. Why would Silencer Shop add the Captcha step when what they had before was working just fine in January especially since Captcha is buggy, you know the saying, “if ain’t broke don’t fix it?” My guess is people were letting their dealer have their User ID and PIN credentials to complete certification without the buyer present, that would be comparable to buying a firearm and letting the dealer sign your name on the 4473. That would be a great way for the dealer to lose their license and other consequences for the buyer since they didn’t actually sign their 4473 and walked out their lgs with a firearm. So Captcha is a way of making sure that both the dealer and the buyer are PRESENT in the certification process on the phone with the customer doing the certification remotely with both the dealer and customer looking at their devices and seeing the cursor move, it’s actually a great solution.
No your prints, SSN, demographic, picture, DL number just allows you in the door like going to a club and you show your ID that proves your 21 or older and the next time you go to that club you are going to have to show your ID again to get in. No one can do lethal harm with their tax return, but your can along with the firearm is able to inflict lethal harm on someone and thus the requirement to fill out a 4473 every time when buying a firearm and certifying every time when buying a can that is not relevant for your tax return that requires less hoops. Having all of your metrics in a digital file is easier for you and for Silencer Shop and you should be grateful for smart people at Silencer Shop for coming up with a faster and easier way to submit that information over and over again for you and everyone of their customers. Of course, it’s in the interest of Silencer Shop to have eforms in place as it helps them sell more cans.
The reason you have to certify each time is simple you are attesting you have not committed a crime since your last submission even if you did a submission just the day before.
I thought the background check was to prove you haven't committed a crime since your last submission?
You are correct. There are two different scenarios though. When buying a firearm at your LGS you fill out the 4473, when you sign you are attesting or swearing the information you provided and the questions you answered are correct. NICS is checking for any hits and if found to be authentic and if charged and convicted, then you lied on your 4473 which would be an additional charge for falsifying the 4473 in addition to whatever was found in the NICS check. So the 4473 is like going to the edge of a cliff and you decide if you are going to jump and by that I mean sign. If you sign and you’ve lied on the 4473 and the check is run then you‘ve jumped and there is no turning back.thought the background check was to prove you haven't committed a crime since your last submission?
In the second scenario when certifying your can via eform you are doing the same thing as the 4473, but the background check isn’t done that day like a conventional firearm; it is done later when assigned to an examiner.
So the honest Joe that obeys the law is going to think twice before he signs, if not being completely truthful, may decide to walk away from the signing and the purchase, but a criminal is much less likely to care because they have a pattern of breaking the law, for them the penalties are less of a deterrent.
The DocuSign for your trust also explicitly states that you hear-by swear that you are who you say you are, and that your answers are correct, and the FBI background check is to prove you have a clean background and haven't committed any crimes... So explain to me again why we still have to certify, and why it's not superfluous?
I know how this works, I own quite a few suppressors... I'm not new to this game. I know how it works and why each thing does what it does, and what it means... But the 1 thing I can't figure out is the certification part, because it seems to just be an extra hoop of bullshit to jump through, since several other things already do the same thing you're stating the certification process does...
A criminal is not likely to purchase a suppressor through legal means anyway... Just like criminals aren't likely to try to buy guns from dealers because of the NICS check. Criminals, are still going to crime, whether it's buying a gun, or robbing a house. They don't care about laws...That's what makes them criminals. Only an idiot would be a prohibited person, and still try to buy an NFA item through legal means...That would just be idiotic.
Sure all the information on your Docusign is the same everytime you submit, but you sign each time because it is a legal instrument. The certification is just a required step to get the digital packet into ATF possession for your can submissions, the phone call with your dealer on the line, both of you seeing what is happening when you “join session” is similar to filling out a 4473 in person. When you sign a 4473 in person you are in fact “certifying” and when you do it on the phone with your dealer you are “certifying,” I am not sure what else I can offer for you to understand.
Buy a firearm in person you certify on a 4473. Buy a can via eform trust and you have the option to certify online or go to your dealer. It seems your hung up on the word “certification,” call it something else ”signing that all the information is still correct” because that is what you are doing.
As an FYI to you concerning your first eform on March 17th, if you would have been submitting five can submissions via eform trust that day for example, you would have been required to submit your User ID and PIN - five times. Why? I don’t know it may have to do with the higher level of scrutiny for cans, that each can is in a registry and thus each must be “signed that all the information is correct,” it’s a higher requirement than firearm purchases on a 4473, you can buy multiple firearms on the same form and only sign once.
If you owned your own company and you were doing a fleet lease of 30 vehicles and say the first group came in and there were seven vehicles it is likely you may have to sign seven times and again individually when the remaining 23 came in, why because posession is accomplished via a legal instrument such as a lease agreement for those 30 vehicles. It’s the same for cans.
You can be upset and desire for the ATF, NFA to be abolished along with the registry and $200 tax stamp and that is understandable and your right, but until Congress changes the laws in part or totality your wrapped around the axle with no benefit unless you just get something out of complaining. It is just the way it is accept it or take up another interest or hobby.
Buy a firearm in person you certify on a 4473. Buy a can via eform trust and you have the option to certify online or go to your dealer. It seems your hung up on the word “certification,” call it something else ”signing that all the information is still correct” because that is what you are doing.
As an FYI to you concerning your first eform on March 17th, if you would have been submitting five can submissions via eform trust that day for example, you would have been required to submit your User ID and PIN - five times. Why? I don’t know it may have to do with the higher level of scrutiny for cans, that each can is in a registry and thus each must be “signed that all the information is correct,” it’s a higher requirement than firearm purchases on a 4473, you can buy multiple firearms on the same form and only sign once.
If you owned your own company and you were doing a fleet lease of 30 vehicles and say the first group came in and there were seven vehicles it is likely you may have to sign seven times and again individually when the remaining 23 came in, why because posession is accomplished via a legal instrument such as a lease agreement for those 30 vehicles. It’s the same for cans.
You can be upset and desire for the ATF, NFA to be abolished along with the registry and $200 tax stamp and that is understandable and your right, but until Congress changes the laws in part or totality your wrapped around the axle with no benefit unless you just get something out of complaining. It is just the way it is accept it or take up another interest or hobby.
Confirmed eform submission date 2/04/22
waiting through day 109 today.
we are officially back on topic.
waiting through day 109 today.
we are officially back on topic.
Took two minutes to certify today. Email to join session at 10:11 and email for “submitted/in process” at 10:13. The guy from yesterday was off so he wasn’t the one I dealt with today.
So, on 18 May 2021 my Form 4 was submitted. Still not approved. Called the AFT, and their recorded message preparatory to describing the menu options say "if you are in a pending status this means it has not yet been assigned to an examiner". I was told its in a "pending" status.
Well, after waiting a year with what appeared to be zero action, I contacted my Senator's office to see if they could break the log jam for me.
The reply that they got back from the ATF was that I'm in a delayed status with NICS since 31 Mar 2022.
Now, I have no criminal record and have never been arrested. I have never had any issue with NICS since my first check in about '96-97' time frame.
And, on 16 Mar 0f 2022, my FFL received a BA of mine from Altus and we did the NICS thing. We got back "Delayed" which shocked me. My FFL said to not worry, they are totally in the weeds and if they can't do the "instant" part, then they reply Delayed until they can get to it. In fact, NICS approved the transfer with a Proceed 3 hours after giving us a Delayed response. Clearly, this Delay was due to staffing/work load as if there was anything substantive involved then it wouldn't have cleared that fast.
AND, it would have to have been something entered into my FBI records between the 16 Mar "Proceed" on the BA and this Delay supposedly in place since 31 Mar.
The AFT just said "talk to the FBI". The FBI (yes, I actually got someone from NICS on the phone...not easy) said "oh, we know nothing about Form 4 and you need to talk to the ATF". Typical government circle jerk.
I called the ATF again today and was told "pending". I asked if that meant that it had not yet been assigned to an examiner, as described by the AFT's menus system greeting. She told me no, that a Form 4 is in pending status for the entire period of their processing and will only change when either approved or denied. Doesn't match what they are saying on their phone message but WTF knows.
So, I tossed this back to my Senator's office and I'm waiting to hear back.
This process...both the ATF and FBI/NICS is so opaque that a citizen actually has no way to find out what's going on and if there is an issue to find out what it is and get it resolved.
By the by, NICS appeals are only for Denied. NICS VIF (UPIN) is only for future purchases and will do nothing for this can....and, I don't have any record of being frequently denied or delayed which is why you would go thru the hassle of getting a UPIN.
And yes, you can ask for your FBI records. Go get fingerprinted again, write a check, mail it in, and I guess you will get it sometime. But what if there is nothing in there to justify the Delayed? Because, they won't actually tell you if you are being Delayed and if so, why.
Now, I'm closing in on 70 this year, was a former USAF officer, have had mil and civ security clearances throughout much of my career, have passed numerous NICS checks incl on 16 Mar of this year, and have no criminal background.
What a fucking quagmire and a perfect example of why I hold government in general contempt on the issue of competency and efficiency.
I hate the AFT.
Well, after waiting a year with what appeared to be zero action, I contacted my Senator's office to see if they could break the log jam for me.
The reply that they got back from the ATF was that I'm in a delayed status with NICS since 31 Mar 2022.
Now, I have no criminal record and have never been arrested. I have never had any issue with NICS since my first check in about '96-97' time frame.
And, on 16 Mar 0f 2022, my FFL received a BA of mine from Altus and we did the NICS thing. We got back "Delayed" which shocked me. My FFL said to not worry, they are totally in the weeds and if they can't do the "instant" part, then they reply Delayed until they can get to it. In fact, NICS approved the transfer with a Proceed 3 hours after giving us a Delayed response. Clearly, this Delay was due to staffing/work load as if there was anything substantive involved then it wouldn't have cleared that fast.
AND, it would have to have been something entered into my FBI records between the 16 Mar "Proceed" on the BA and this Delay supposedly in place since 31 Mar.
The AFT just said "talk to the FBI". The FBI (yes, I actually got someone from NICS on the phone...not easy) said "oh, we know nothing about Form 4 and you need to talk to the ATF". Typical government circle jerk.
I called the ATF again today and was told "pending". I asked if that meant that it had not yet been assigned to an examiner, as described by the AFT's menus system greeting. She told me no, that a Form 4 is in pending status for the entire period of their processing and will only change when either approved or denied. Doesn't match what they are saying on their phone message but WTF knows.
So, I tossed this back to my Senator's office and I'm waiting to hear back.
This process...both the ATF and FBI/NICS is so opaque that a citizen actually has no way to find out what's going on and if there is an issue to find out what it is and get it resolved.
By the by, NICS appeals are only for Denied. NICS VIF (UPIN) is only for future purchases and will do nothing for this can....and, I don't have any record of being frequently denied or delayed which is why you would go thru the hassle of getting a UPIN.
And yes, you can ask for your FBI records. Go get fingerprinted again, write a check, mail it in, and I guess you will get it sometime. But what if there is nothing in there to justify the Delayed? Because, they won't actually tell you if you are being Delayed and if so, why.
Now, I'm closing in on 70 this year, was a former USAF officer, have had mil and civ security clearances throughout much of my career, have passed numerous NICS checks incl on 16 Mar of this year, and have no criminal background.
What a fucking quagmire and a perfect example of why I hold government in general contempt on the issue of competency and efficiency.
I hate the AFT.
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Unfortunately, I think they hate us too
You think? I thought that was obvious…
I still think they’re getting slow-down orders from the top to keep cans out of hands.
Just because it’s a conspiracy, doesn’t mean it’s a theory…
It doesn't even have to be a slow down order, all it takes is a pee-on wanting to impress his libtard boss by delaying the unwashed ....You think? I thought that was obvious…
I still think they’re getting slow-down orders from the top to keep cans out of hands.
Just because it’s a conspiracy, doesn’t mean it’s a theory…
I have a simple solution to this whole dilemma. Disband the ATF!
I find this to be highly doubtful. We are just dealing with normal government inefficiency. Approvals could be taking 10 years if your assumption was correct.I still think they’re getting slow-down orders from the top to keep cans out of hands.
It’s not likely, but would you really be surprised given the anti-gun lapdogs they have in charge there, and keep trying to put more in place?
I believe it was on the Vortex Nation podcast that it was stated that eForm 4 approvals are being handled by some of the staff that used to be assigned to paper Form 4s. Since the 12-month-old backlog of those paper forms did not magically disappear when eForm 4s opened, we're presumably now feeling the effects of that reassigned staff.
I'm afraid that mine is going to be the bottom of the pile. Mine was sent in the end of November and check cashed 12/8/21. I barely missed the new system. I'm assuming more people will be assigned to the new system and so submissions like mine through silencershop that were the last of that process will therefore even be slower than normal. Sigh
Well, my final paper form was cashed on 5/21/21, and still pending... So we're over a year now just since cash date... I wouldn't be holding my breath for anytime soon.
So, in my somewhat hyper anxiety yesterday after my Senator's office forwarded a reply from ATF that the FBI/NICS has had my suppressor on "Delay" since Mar 31 when I just cleared a NICS check on a BA on 16 Mar???
Anyway, while you can appeal a Denial....you can't do shit or get really any info on a Delay (well, not without perhaps an attorney). You can get your FBI file, that really doesn't indicate wtf is the reason for the Delayed status.
I did take a bit of a desperate action yesterday and emailed the VAF (UPIN guys) as they were the only people in NICS I could find to reach out to directly. I did acknowledge that my situation doesn't seem to be in their portfolio but asked if perhaps they could direct me to the proper person that I could contact.
That was yesterday....the same day that ATF came back to my Senator's office saying I'm on Delay since Mar and that's that. Assholes.
So today (!!) the VAF office replied to me that they reached out to the supervisor of the department that handles ATF background checks (part of NICS) and was informed that:
"your transaction with the FBI has recently been completed and sent back to the ATF. The ATF should be in contact with you upon completion of your application."
Now, they didn't say what "recently been completed" means but I suspect that perhaps it was yesterday! haha The very same day that the ATF insisted that the FBI said I'm on Delay. I THINK (not caps...I don't know, but I think) that the NICS office puts all ATF NICS requests on Delay as the Brady law says they have 3 days to complete a check on a Delay or the item can be released by the FFL. This does NOT apply to NFA Form 4 stuff. But we know that all of these orgs are totally in the weeds, have a big backlog, and I suspect that the "Delay" put on my Form 4 on 31 Mar is the date the NICS folks got the ATF request for background check and given that they were not going to be "instant" (as in the I in NICS) they routinely put all such background requests on Delay status until they can get to it. I do NOT know that....but I think it may be the case.
Anyway, next week we (Senator's office) is going to ping the ATF about this...if those assholes come back and say I'm still on FBI/NICS Delay, then we will go to war. But I suspect (again, don't know) that we may have broken the log jam and got things moving again. Aside from the background check, I don't think (that word again) there is much else to process.
Anyway, that's were we are.
Damn, this stressed me out terribly yesterday. In 1998 I ran into an issue with NICS (first gun bought under NICS req) with them having absolutely erroneous and incomplete data in my record and it took about 2 years and $$ to a lawyer to get it cleaned up. I feared I was about to be dropped into that quagmire again but thankfully not.
The NICS regs need to be amended, IMO, to include some sort of admin law court for "Delayed" where a citizen can find out WHY they have been put on Delay and defend/appeal/rebut the NICS position.
Cheers
Balls...I'm afraid mine is going to be a year plus as well. I hope it works out soon for you.
CGS Hyperion QD on E-Form 4
12/1/21 Purchased through LGS, applied via SS Kiosk, then spent several weeks clearing up issues/corrections with application
1/28/22 Ready to certify, SS
2/2/22 E Form4 Submitted/In Process, email from ATF
5/27/22 Approved, email from ATF
Total 113 days
12/1/21 Purchased through LGS, applied via SS Kiosk, then spent several weeks clearing up issues/corrections with application
1/28/22 Ready to certify, SS
2/2/22 E Form4 Submitted/In Process, email from ATF
5/27/22 Approved, email from ATF
Total 113 days
7 months and counting......smh! I'm almost tempted to buy another CGS Hyperion via e-forms to see what happens.
May 16, 2021 submitted, approved 5/15/22, picked up 5/26/22.
So bleak as it seems, there is some hope for pre-Eform approval.
-Richard
So bleak as it seems, there is some hope for pre-Eform approval.
-Richard
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Day 1 for my first one and call back and try again tomorrow for my second. If I get these by October I’ll be surprised.
How picky is the AFT on photos? The one submitted is not the same as the one I sent to SS for the application. Had issues getting any accepted and then there it is miraculously except it wasn’t the one I wanted. IOS must not work the best with the application process. And SS is probably swamped and doesn’t get to emails for several days.
How picky is the AFT on photos? The one submitted is not the same as the one I sent to SS for the application. Had issues getting any accepted and then there it is miraculously except it wasn’t the one I wanted. IOS must not work the best with the application process. And SS is probably swamped and doesn’t get to emails for several days.
So, I asked my friendly NICS UPON guy, who told me that my background check was returned to the ATF “recently” if he could tell me what “recently” meant.
It meant 26 May. The very day he reached across the organization to see where my NICS check was.
“Oh, you mean this one sitting under my coffee cup? Tell him it’s sent back to the ATF and I’ll do that as soon as I finish my donut”
Fucking clowns. If I didn’t sic my Senator’s office on them it would prob be sitting there until the second coming. FFS
Mine went from Pending to Queued… guess I need to call SS tomorrow to see what that means. Tried the ATF today and was on hold for over 30mins and gave it up. Over 400 days so far…
it appears the initial honeymoon period of e-files getting 65-78 days approval is gone by the wayside. i expect they are all going to be something like 180 days very soon.
i wonder, out loud, if there will be a time long after they get through the current backlog of paper submissions, where the vast majority will be efile and if a person could get back to the olden days of 60-90 days on a paper submission?
I think it was a glitch in the system. I did a paper file and mine said the same thing yesterday and went away this morning.
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