Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
yeah... but with a electronic milligram scale.
yeah... but with a electronic milligram scale.
- Thread starter tolnep
- Start date
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah... but with a electronic milligram scale.</div></div>
Ahh! - The quest for the Holy Grail goes on.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yeah... but with a electronic milligram scale.</div></div>
Ahh! - The quest for the Holy Grail goes on.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">On and off for 35 years, this has been my experience as well.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several "kernels" of wisdom in this thread
.
1. Chrono's are not single digit accurate. CED touts theirs (or did) at being .005% accurate. .005 X 2700fps = 13.5 fps so if your measurements are less than 13.5 ES you are less than the tolerance and therefor nice, but questionable.
2. Consistency at the bench = Consistency on paper.
3. Speed is disproportional to accuracy.
4. Case fill is at least as important as powder choice. A full case or even a slight crush on a freshly dropped powder charge will net you better ES than air under the boolet.
5. OCW and OBT loading concepts and application will negate not only small variances in powder weight but also temperature.
6. Leaving a round chambered in a hot gun for any appreciable length of time WILL change your POI and you can never guess correctly how much with any reliability.
7. A spoon and a beam scale will give you equally as accurate results in weight as a multi $$$$ sooper whiz bang machine if the eyeball in front of the scale is willing to take the time to get each measurement the same (See note 2).
and FINALLY:
SHOOTER, Platform and ammo form the triad. The weakest link will determine the final accuracy output of the system.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
<span style="font-family: 'Arial Black'">On and off for 35 years, this has been my experience as well.</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Several "kernels" of wisdom in this thread
1. Chrono's are not single digit accurate. CED touts theirs (or did) at being .005% accurate. .005 X 2700fps = 13.5 fps so if your measurements are less than 13.5 ES you are less than the tolerance and therefor nice, but questionable.
2. Consistency at the bench = Consistency on paper.
3. Speed is disproportional to accuracy.
4. Case fill is at least as important as powder choice. A full case or even a slight crush on a freshly dropped powder charge will net you better ES than air under the boolet.
5. OCW and OBT loading concepts and application will negate not only small variances in powder weight but also temperature.
6. Leaving a round chambered in a hot gun for any appreciable length of time WILL change your POI and you can never guess correctly how much with any reliability.
7. A spoon and a beam scale will give you equally as accurate results in weight as a multi $$$$ sooper whiz bang machine if the eyeball in front of the scale is willing to take the time to get each measurement the same (See note 2).
and FINALLY:
SHOOTER, Platform and ammo form the triad. The weakest link will determine the final accuracy output of the system.
Cheers,
Doc </div></div>
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
i find it ironic that the prometheus is a time saving device, which would probably appeal to me as much as the precise weighing, yet it takes 3 years for one to arrive, if not longer.
now.. what is wanted is some sort of sonic or x-ray 3d measuring device capable of determining the volume of a given case, coupled with a computerized pico-gram powder dispensing apparatus coupled with a sorting mechanism to sort finished ammunition into n groups, where n is a setting on the machine. and of course it weighs and measures the bullets and probably the primers as part of the process....
i love technology and over engineered toys..
i find it ironic that the prometheus is a time saving device, which would probably appeal to me as much as the precise weighing, yet it takes 3 years for one to arrive, if not longer.
now.. what is wanted is some sort of sonic or x-ray 3d measuring device capable of determining the volume of a given case, coupled with a computerized pico-gram powder dispensing apparatus coupled with a sorting mechanism to sort finished ammunition into n groups, where n is a setting on the machine. and of course it weighs and measures the bullets and probably the primers as part of the process....
i love technology and over engineered toys..
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No it is probably just that they are very good with there rifles. All the names I mentioned are very good shots, and I believe John Whidden loads his ammo on a Dillon 550 or 650. People get to caught up in equipment and the highest laser like BC bullet, etc. Still boils down to basic fundamentals. </div></div>
I have loaded for nearly 20 years on a Dillon 550 using Lee FL dies and the Dillon volumetric powder measure. My ammunition has consistently shot as well or better than FGMM in my service rifles, and has generally given about 1/2 MOA in my tuned hunting rifles. Based on my experience, I think that practice is much more conducive to shooting success than seeking the utmost precision in powder charges.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No it is probably just that they are very good with there rifles. All the names I mentioned are very good shots, and I believe John Whidden loads his ammo on a Dillon 550 or 650. People get to caught up in equipment and the highest laser like BC bullet, etc. Still boils down to basic fundamentals. </div></div>
I have loaded for nearly 20 years on a Dillon 550 using Lee FL dies and the Dillon volumetric powder measure. My ammunition has consistently shot as well or better than FGMM in my service rifles, and has generally given about 1/2 MOA in my tuned hunting rifles. Based on my experience, I think that practice is much more conducive to shooting success than seeking the utmost precision in powder charges.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No it is probably just that they are very good with there rifles. All the names I mentioned are very good shots, and I believe John Whidden loads his ammo on a Dillon 550 or 650. People get to caught up in equipment and the highest laser like BC bullet, etc. Still boils down to basic fundamentals. </div></div>
I have loaded for nearly 20 years on a Dillon 550 using Lee FL dies and the Dillon volumetric powder measure. My ammunition has consistently shot as well or better than FGMM in my service rifles, and has generally given about 1/2 MOA in my tuned hunting rifles. Based on my experience, I think that practice is much more conducive to shooting success than seeking the utmost precision in powder charges. </div></div>
I believe alot of people use dillon press`s to reload accurate ammo. I Do Not Believe they use the dillon powder slide dump assy.LR ammo (600-1200+ yds.) has to be loaded with identical powder charges.
bill larson
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lachoneus</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Heman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No it is probably just that they are very good with there rifles. All the names I mentioned are very good shots, and I believe John Whidden loads his ammo on a Dillon 550 or 650. People get to caught up in equipment and the highest laser like BC bullet, etc. Still boils down to basic fundamentals. </div></div>
I have loaded for nearly 20 years on a Dillon 550 using Lee FL dies and the Dillon volumetric powder measure. My ammunition has consistently shot as well or better than FGMM in my service rifles, and has generally given about 1/2 MOA in my tuned hunting rifles. Based on my experience, I think that practice is much more conducive to shooting success than seeking the utmost precision in powder charges. </div></div>
I believe alot of people use dillon press`s to reload accurate ammo. I Do Not Believe they use the dillon powder slide dump assy.LR ammo (600-1200+ yds.) has to be loaded with identical powder charges.
bill larson
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
My point for the OP is that accurate ammunition can be loaded without spending beaucoup bucks on extremely sensitive equipment for weighing charges. I think a better approach is to practice shooting decent, safe ammunition until the ammunition becomes a limiting factor before dedicating great time and expense to produce "perfect" loads. If you cannot hold the 9-ring with FGMM or another proven performer, it does little good to waste time making loads that produce smaller groups than what that ammunition is capable of.
For what it's worth, I only spot check loads from my Dillon, but with ball powders the charge stays within the +/- .1 grain of the nominal load.
My point for the OP is that accurate ammunition can be loaded without spending beaucoup bucks on extremely sensitive equipment for weighing charges. I think a better approach is to practice shooting decent, safe ammunition until the ammunition becomes a limiting factor before dedicating great time and expense to produce "perfect" loads. If you cannot hold the 9-ring with FGMM or another proven performer, it does little good to waste time making loads that produce smaller groups than what that ammunition is capable of.
For what it's worth, I only spot check loads from my Dillon, but with ball powders the charge stays within the +/- .1 grain of the nominal load.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
One of our local shooters (JtP) does probably 99% of his loading on a Dillon of one flavor or another... often using an APM. He's skunked me enough times in 'practical/tactical' field-type events that I won't say good groups can't be loaded full-progressive... but I will say that I don't personally know of anyone loading for serious F-Class competition that way. I *do* do a lot of my loading on my 550... but as someone else mentioned, it's been upgraded/neutered to where its closer to a 'turret' press than a progressive.
One of our local shooters (JtP) does probably 99% of his loading on a Dillon of one flavor or another... often using an APM. He's skunked me enough times in 'practical/tactical' field-type events that I won't say good groups can't be loaded full-progressive... but I will say that I don't personally know of anyone loading for serious F-Class competition that way. I *do* do a lot of my loading on my 550... but as someone else mentioned, it's been upgraded/neutered to where its closer to a 'turret' press than a progressive.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
I have not shot in F-Class competition, and I am sure that those who do are using techniques that work. I note that John Whidden has loaded his Palma ammunition using the progressive system except for weighing his powder charges:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek059/
A friend and I shot together in service rifle competition over several years using tuned M1As and AR-15s. He loaded all his cartridges one at a time, and hand-weighed every charge. I was too busy with work and family to do that, so I just loaded everything progressive-style on the Dillon, including my 600 yard cartridges. We both typically shot scores in the 90s and I never felt my ammunition put me at a disadvantage, at least vis a vis my friend. I did try some of his loads one time, but did not do any better with them than with mine. At least in our competitions, with our rifles and abilities, the progressive Dillon loads seemed to work as well as the hand loads.
I have not shot in F-Class competition, and I am sure that those who do are using techniques that work. I note that John Whidden has loaded his Palma ammunition using the progressive system except for weighing his powder charges:
http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/gunweek059/
A friend and I shot together in service rifle competition over several years using tuned M1As and AR-15s. He loaded all his cartridges one at a time, and hand-weighed every charge. I was too busy with work and family to do that, so I just loaded everything progressive-style on the Dillon, including my 600 yard cartridges. We both typically shot scores in the 90s and I never felt my ammunition put me at a disadvantage, at least vis a vis my friend. I did try some of his loads one time, but did not do any better with them than with mine. At least in our competitions, with our rifles and abilities, the progressive Dillon loads seemed to work as well as the hand loads.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
Yeah... John's press ain't running exactly 'stock' tool heads... nor is mine. I have most of his 'upgrades' on my 550 but my approach is somewhat different.
Yeah... John's press ain't running exactly 'stock' tool heads... nor is mine. I have most of his 'upgrades' on my 550 but my approach is somewhat different.
Re: extreme precise powder measurement worth the cost?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of our local shooters (JtP) does probably 99% of his loading on a Dillon of one flavor or another... often using an APM. He's skunked me enough times in 'practical/tactical' field-type events that I won't say good groups can't be loaded full-progressive... but I will say that I don't personally know of anyone loading for serious F-Class competition that way. I *do* do a lot of my loading on my 550... but as someone else mentioned, it's been upgraded/neutered to where its closer to a 'turret' press than a progressive. </div></div>
Thanks Monte,
Appreciate the complement!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One of our local shooters (JtP) does probably 99% of his loading on a Dillon of one flavor or another... often using an APM. He's skunked me enough times in 'practical/tactical' field-type events that I won't say good groups can't be loaded full-progressive... but I will say that I don't personally know of anyone loading for serious F-Class competition that way. I *do* do a lot of my loading on my 550... but as someone else mentioned, it's been upgraded/neutered to where its closer to a 'turret' press than a progressive. </div></div>
Thanks Monte,
Appreciate the complement!
