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Why ITAR sucks

C

cobaltbomb

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 2, 2009
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austria europe
Many of you guys probably know the ITAR regulations.
ITAR stands for International Trafficking of Arms Regulation.
It was invented by Bush Jr.
What this law created in the last years in Europe was that anything firearms related made in the US has gone up in price, or was not available any more at all.
A very nice example of what happened is the market for AR15 rifles. Before ITAR there were no manufacturers of AR15 rifles in Europe, all the demand was satisfied by US manufacturers.
Since then at least 3 new companies have emerged alone in Germany, and older players in the Industry have developed their own AR models and are offering ARs now made in europe(links below).
This law killed export markets for the US Industry by heavy regulation, in turn created a strong momentum for European (german) producers.
I understand why this law prevents guns from beeing sold to civilians in non allied countries, but regulation of civilian weapons trade with allied nations was definitely a bad idea.

http://www.schmeisser-germany.de/en/products_civil.html
http://www.hera-arms.de/
http://www.oberlandarms.com/produkte-infos-rifles--de--Produkte+Products.html
http://www.dar-germany.com/de/produkte/waffen/
http://www.sigsauer.de/englisch/sport/sig-sauer-516.html
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

I don't know, I'm kind of fond of the sig 516.
smile.gif
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Just letting you know
I guess not many people have given this a thought in the US or knew what ITAR was.
While we in Europe had a hard time getting US components for Black rifles and especially ARs more and more is now made domestically.
That basically renders the law obsolete, an is bad for the US gun industry-> stupid law
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

The point is… we are so fucked; we now have Europeans criticizing us for overregulation. :-(
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

I don't think the US gun industry is feeling much of a squeeze at the moment.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

i really really hope you guys dont get all the stupid gun regulations shoved up your asses that we have to endure here...

psychological tests, central registration, limited number of owned guns, "valid reason" to be able to buy one, obligatory gun safes, police checking every 5 years on your guns etc..
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

ITAR is bullshit. It shouldn't be up to the government who small arms companies decide to do business with. Not only that, I tried buying a scope from Optics Planet at one point and the retarded ITAR compliance crap they make customers fill out is beyond retarded---I sent it to them at least half a dozen times before they would continue with the order. For a scope....
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

I had to do the same bullshit to get an optic sent to my house in the states, just because my IP address showed I was overseas.

Any accessories or optics you want DHL will ship, no questions asked.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

The way I see it, (as a Canadian) is that ITAR is damning on two fronts.

By ya'll not being allowed to sell unregulated items into our country, that sorta negates the patent laws, does it not?

Ya'll may have patents on things, but if you CAN'T sell them to us, and we are not prevented from having such items (by our laws) then what stops us from making our own?

I'd much rather deal with the individuals and/or companies whom did the developing and manufacturing. Screwing ones friends is not fun. Question is, how many stand on principles?

Us common-folk ARE the ones being screwed over.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITAR is bullshit. It shouldn't be up to the government who small arms companies decide to do business with. Not only that, I tried buying a scope from Optics Planet at one point and the retarded ITAR compliance crap they make customers fill out is beyond retarded---I sent it to them at least half a dozen times before they would continue with the order. For a scope.... </div></div>

You might think differently if you knew what ITAR kept from being exported, everyday. (I work criminal cases on these.)
Commo equipment, night vision technology, drone parts, missile technology, etc. This stuff is highly sought after by our enemies who use straw purchasers in "friendly" countries to aquire it and pass it on.
BTW, I've to do the ITAR paperwork myself. I agree, it is a pain. But if it keeps AQ, or other countries, from our technology, it is worth it.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Here’s my biggest gripe w/ ITAR; mandatory registration to manufacture items on the munitions lists. If the Feds say we can’t ship certain items overseas that could be used against our troops, then I guess I’m OK with that. I do not want to arm our enemies or harm our troops. If I wanted to manufacture a listed item, I would be required to register and pay the $2250 and worst IMO, ask permission to make an item to sell in the US. IM not at all humble O, that’s beyond the scope of the Gov.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Riflescopes, gun parts, ammunition and components, reloading equipment, custom stocks.....

These are the SIMPLE items to which I'm referring. I totally understand the 'higher level' equipment, and don't begrudge you limitations on such. Us lowly commonfolk don't really have a need for missile technology, drone parts, and night-vision technology is a massively controlled item even here.

That stuff I ain't talking about. Whereas my first sentence in this post, is. As I've said prior, Midway doesn't even answer phone-calls placed from Canadian numbers. The call is automatically dropped, without being answered. What does that tell you?

By all means, carpet bomb the countries that are causing these problems. But don't add to the 'gun control' (FIREARM LIMITATIONS UPON THE POPULACE) of so-called Friendly Countries.

As stated, it's us common-folk who're being crushed. Yeah, ITAR sucks for the bad-guys,,,, and rightly so. At the same time, whichever snapperheads designed it, also painted your 'friends' with the same brush as your enemies.

Now, I love my southern brethren. Simple as that. But we here are looked upon and treated as 'second-class citizens of a third-world country' by your leadership. Makes for tough fence-mending.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Sean, I didn't even notice where you posted from. I now completely understand your heartburn with ITAR!
Not a perfect system, by any means.
I admit, I only see the "big" stuff, and not what affects the day to day livelyhood of small manufacturers.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Long before the "new mfgs" in europe, there was this little county called China making "M16's", don't know if they can be called "true M16's as they those peskeee chinese make an Unlicensed copy, but nonetheless, my money is on the chinese to be able to out produce and out price any european company. Even Iran makes a "M16", but here in the US we make AK's. If china was allowed to export guns and ammo (again) into the US, we would see a huge price drop in most things shooting related.
I would like to add, missle parts, radar, nuclear secrets etc., yes these should be controlled, but, when those regulations filter down to sporting arms (I'm only talking about sporting arms not class III, not military heavy gear etc.) all it does is harm our mfgs. We can still buy SKS's made in Europe, and 7.62x39 made here or any where else but china, the only people we hurt with the chinese ban on Norico is the Chinese and the American consumer. The "bad guys" around the world have no trouble getting small arms, and it looks like they don't have much trouble getting RPG'S and heavier weapons. The ITARs only hurt the American small arms industry.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point is… we are so fucked; we now have Europeans criticizing us for overregulation. :-(
</div></div>

Hahaha yeah i guess globalization means reducing everything to lowest common denominator not taking best from all
smile.gif
smile.gif
...

Frankly if you really want something bad from the US one can relatively simple (and with $$) get the paperwork sorted out and item shipped. Most people who run business simply will not risk fines/jail time or study complex legislation and bother with exports since they have enough (at least good ones) business locally.

As to the ITAR itself it's a joke as big players will get their stolen knowhow anyway (done on the espionage level - industrial/military) all it does is employ some more bureaucrats feeds few power hungry officials and in the end hurts US as those interested in high tech will get it from elsewhere as most of what US have either Russia or China are able to produce. But considering everything is going down the drain over regulation is the name of the game so expect some more of the same crap in the future (especially if UN small arms treaty gets adopted).
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LanceS4803</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITAR is bullshit. It shouldn't be up to the government who small arms companies decide to do business with. Not only that, I tried buying a scope from Optics Planet at one point and the retarded ITAR compliance crap they make customers fill out is beyond retarded---I sent it to them at least half a dozen times before they would continue with the order. For a scope.... </div></div>

You might think differently if you knew what ITAR kept from being exported, everyday. (I work criminal cases on these.)
Commo equipment, night vision technology, drone parts, missile technology, etc. This stuff is highly sought after by our enemies who use straw purchasers in "friendly" countries to aquire it and pass it on.
BTW, I've to do the ITAR paperwork myself. I agree, it is a pain. But if it keeps AQ, or other countries, from our technology, it is worth it.

</div></div>

I know what all ITAR includes, and that shouldn't trump property rights. I cannot respect ITAR or that position simply because it gets exported on secondary markets anyway. We don't have a sealed border. Its private intellectual property and the owner of such property should be free to do as they see fit. And if that's not enough for you----our government is arming our enemies on our dime. What do you think the whole thing in Benghazi was all about?
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

One thing I've always wondered is why the S&B 5-25x56 is ITAR related according to Optics Planet when it is made in Germany? So it can be made in Germany, but if Sport Optics, Optics Planet, etc. want to SELL it to a German, they gotta fill out a shit ton of paperwork?
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halcyon612</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I've always wondered is why the S&B 5-25x56 is ITAR related according to Optics Planet when it is made in Germany? So it can be made in Germany, but if Sport Optics, Optics Planet, etc. want to SELL it to a German, they gotta fill out a shit ton of paperwork?
</div></div>

If you think that's goofy, think about this:

A robotics controller that has the capability to resolve 1 arc-sec or better (which is 1/60th MOA) requires ITAR approval to export because that can be easily used for a guidance system.

FANUC Controllers for CNC machines are IMPORTED from Germany without any issue whatsoever. If one goes down on your machine in the US and they need to refurb it, the cheapest way to do it involves flying a factory support rep. to the US as opposed to sending the box back to the manufacturer because the time and money required for that ITAR review is more expensive.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

I'm sorry but with things like legislation, government, regulation, army, corporate environment logic is not something which is very useful. Its best left at home since it will result in nothing but frustrations (trying to understand how before mentioned operate or what makes them tick).

Actually its pretty simple for ITAR listed items (and not prohibited like night/thermal sensors, nuke components or other "interesting" stuff) you need to get export permit (was ~200 i think and is not per item but per permit which allows for multiple items) but most businesses simply won't bother with it. There are some specialized exporters which for a "small" fee will handle export paperwork so if someone really wants something (tacops cough cough
smile.gif
)one can get it with some additional expenses. But for most things which are commonly made and not custom it's waste of money and time.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobaltbomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It was invented by Bush Jr. </div></div> You lost me when you don't even know who created the legislation. It was passed in 1976 as part of a Cold War measure with the Arms Export Control Act. But, as usual, it's all Bush's fault...

Feel free to immigrate, get the licenses, or buy from HK. We have enough trouble getting parts as it is.

And Austria can call itself a real ally when it puts up more than three whole troops to Afghanistan, what is a full NATO mission. Even little ol' Luxembourg has 10 here!
http://www.isaf.nato.int/troop-numbers-and-contributions/austria/index.php

ETA... I hate ITAR too. Try going 6+ months without ammunition because the US State Department, that you work for and protect, drag their feet approving your licenses for USG goods you're buying on their behalf.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

I've heard that about W before. I think where that's coming from is, I believe during his Presidency, operation of ITAR was changed to make it 'self-funding'. That's when they jacked up the registration rate. And I'll add, registration doesn't grant permission to export anything, just permission from your benevolent government to manufacture an item that will be sold in the Freakin US of A. Are we Citizens or Subjects???
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Halcyon612</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I've always wondered is why the S&B 5-25x56 is ITAR related according to Optics Planet when it is made in Germany? So it can be made in Germany, but if Sport Optics, Optics Planet, etc. want to SELL it to a German, they gotta fill out a shit ton of paperwork?
</div></div>

Its NOT a shit ton of paperwork,...in fact just one A4 letter sized form and a fee to the State Dept.

Simple fact is nearly all US Manufacturers and retailers cannot be arsed to assist.

If they did then the fees would be justified by the business they would get via export.

ITAR is an arse but it is workable if you are willing.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobaltbomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many of you guys probably know the ITAR regulations.
ITAR stands for International Trafficking of Arms Regulation.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">It was invented by Bush Jr.</span>
What this law created in the last years in Europe was that anything firearms related made in the US has gone up in price, or was not available any more at all.
A very nice example of what happened is the market for AR15 rifles. Before ITAR there were no manufacturers of AR15 rifles in Europe, all the demand was satisfied by US manufacturers.
Since then at least 3 new companies have emerged alone in Germany, and older players in the Industry have developed their own AR models and are offering ARs now made in europe(links below).
<span style="color: #FFFF00">Someone must be smoking crack!! The ITAR regs go back to 1976, Bush Jr. was president in 2001, the ITAR regs, were a continuation/of regulations between the US and many other countries regarding defence related equipment etc. JIMMY Carter was pres in the 1976!!! </span>
This law killed export markets for the US Industry by heavy regulation, in turn created a strong momentum for European (german) producers.
I understand why this law prevents guns from beeing sold to civilians in non allied countries, but regulation of civilian weapons trade with allied nations was definitely a bad idea.

http://www.schmeisser-germany.de/en/products_civil.html
http://www.hera-arms.de/
http://www.oberlandarms.com/produkte-infos-rifles--de--Produkte+Products.html
http://www.dar-germany.com/de/produkte/waffen/
http://www.sigsauer.de/englisch/sport/sig-sauer-516.html </div></div>
Things have really gotten bad, when a poster, posting from Europe, can give Amerians History Lessons-the type of lesson Joseph Goebbels use to spout for the NAZI party-"when you tell a lie tell a BIG lie", thing haven't changed much.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: pawprint2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cobaltbomb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many of you guys probably know the ITAR regulations.
ITAR stands for International Trafficking of Arms Regulation.
<span style="text-decoration: underline">It was invented by Bush Jr.</span>
What this law created in the last years in Europe was that anything firearms related made in the US has gone up in price, or was not available any more at all.
A very nice example of what happened is the market for AR15 rifles. Before ITAR there were no manufacturers of AR15 rifles in Europe, all the demand was satisfied by US manufacturers.
Since then at least 3 new companies have emerged alone in Germany, and older players in the Industry have developed their own AR models and are offering ARs now made in europe(links below).
<span style="color: #FFFF00">Someone must be smoking crack!! The ITAR regs go back to 1976, Bush Jr. was president in 2001, the ITAR regs, were a continuation/of regulations between the US and many other countries regarding defence related equipment etc. JIMMY Carter was pres in the 1976!!! </span>
This law killed export markets for the US Industry by heavy regulation, in turn created a strong momentum for European (german) producers.
I understand why this law prevents guns from beeing sold to civilians in non allied countries, but regulation of civilian weapons trade with allied nations was definitely a bad idea.

http://www.schmeisser-germany.de/en/products_civil.html
http://www.hera-arms.de/
http://www.oberlandarms.com/produkte-infos-rifles--de--Produkte+Products.html
http://www.dar-germany.com/de/produkte/waffen/
http://www.sigsauer.de/englisch/sport/sig-sauer-516.html </div></div>
Things have really gotten bad, when a poster, posting from Europe, can give Amerians History Lessons-the type of lesson Joseph Goebbels use to spout for the NAZI party-"when you tell a lie tell a BIG lie", thing haven't changed much.</div></div> Gerald Ford was President in 1976. Carter was elected in 1976 and took the oath of office in January, 1977.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

i am not even going in on the nazi part.
If itard was implemented in 1976 i stand corrected, but the common shooter in europe got to feel it under bush when they put sporting arms related stuff on the list.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Just as a clarification
Austria is not in the Nato, we are neutral just like Switzerland, and thats why there were only 3 soldiers.
Itar does hit NATO allies just as it does hit others.


 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

redmanss, you are 100% correct, Jimmy Carter was elected in 1976, I just did some quick numbers in my head, but nonetheless-to blame George Bush Jr. for ITAR, which became law in 1976 is crazy!! Why not blame him for killing Kennedy? There would be as much truth to it. As I stated in an earlier post, the ITAR regulations were not a revolutionary piece of work, but rather, "putting in one place" many regs that had been "on the books" for years. There is no question that the ITAR regs, as they are now hurt the small arms mfgs (sporting arms) here in the US. I would not expect any relief for the admin.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LanceS4803</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You might think differently if you knew what ITAR kept from being exported, everyday. (I work criminal cases on these.)
Commo equipment, night vision technology, drone parts, missile technology, etc. This stuff is highly sought after by our enemies who use straw purchasers in "friendly" countries to aquire it and pass it on.
BTW, I've to do the ITAR paperwork myself. I agree, it is a pain. But if it keeps AQ, or other countries, from our technology, it is worth it.

</div></div>

You forgot those super high tech WWI era revolver halfmoon clips!
Talked to a rep at KAC some years ago (regarding the possible export of a suppressor) and some poor bloke got hammered for having had the audacity to export moon clips from WWI without an export permit. Apparently moon clips are "Significant military equipment".

Now, I have no problem with getting a export permit for a rifle (or other items like suppressors, NV etc), but you have the super-stupid rules on what can be exported to non-Mil/LE. Example, want an AR15 with threaded barrel and a 5.56 NATO chamber? No can do. That would represent too big a threat to American troops. No threads and a .223 Wylde chamber (which also can fire NATO), NO PROBLEM. Want an bolt action Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle? Nope. Threaded barrel with a flash hider, much to dangerous. So those rifles are sold here with the barrel cut just in front front sight.
Now, I've heard an unconfirmed rumor that this might change but it at least used to be the way US State dept operated....

Other items.... US made suppressors can only be exported to Mil/LE.
Gen 3 NV as well. But does this stop the bad guys getting NV? No.
 
Re: Why ITAR sucks

Thinking inside the box... You'll get many div/0 errors trying to figure out what some bureaucrat developed. When it comes to weapons and bureaucrats you'll get stuff written on paper that will severely damage your eyes not to mention what it will do to your brain if you actually take time to think about it.

Italians for example have written all military calibers as off limit to civilians and since 9x19 is used by military civvies must have 9x21mm and there are some other "brilliant" stuff in every country which has any kind of weapon limit. Since we don't have borders anymore if i go with my perfectly legal 9x19 into Italy to shoot some IPSC and get stopped by police i'm pretty much fucked and it doesn't matter what is written in my EU documents. Also in Austria i can freely buy any rifle ammo and since there is no border i simply drive home and have it but the official way would be to get a fucking import permit regardless whether or not i have ability to freely purchase the same ammo locally not to mention i can buy ANY type of rifle ammo (by definition one can legally buy only calibers he owns).

So when it comes to "sensitive equipment" and governments i think regulations and the way they are written/enforced is universal and IF there is ANY global language understood by all its bureaucratic language.
 
So you really think The USA is the only place with "state of the art" night vision/suppressors/war fighter kit?

ITAR just stops trade dead for the sake of in theory protecting US business (sic).

If you want the best then its readily and legally available outside of the USA.

End result is the buyer shops elsewhere and US maunfacturers and retailers loose out.
 
You might think differently if you knew what ITAR kept from being exported, everyday. (I work criminal cases on these.)
Commo equipment, night vision technology, drone parts, missile technology, etc. This stuff is highly sought after by our enemies who use straw purchasers in "friendly" countries to aquire it and pass it on.

This is what ITAR was originally designed for. (Statement above)

But it has got a little bit out of hand at the moment. One of the chaps at my club wanted to get a borescope from Sinclaires, turns out it's ITAR regulated and won't ship to Australia.
 
Same goes for the Giraud Case Annealer. Them too can't be shipped "out of country". Something about "ammunition manufacturing" or whatever. This is a GRINDING topic for me, and many other Canucks up here. (and so very many more parts/components/items that are just ridiculous)

I don't have anything good to say about this topic, especially since it is the (unmentionables) who are giving away this apparatus and technology to (them) right in front of us, let alone behind our backs.
 
Yes we can have semis.

Some of us can also walk into a dealer and buy a suppressor off the shelf with no bullshit regulation or extortionate fees. We just can't buy any US made ones !

The point about ITAR is that it doesn't make it impossible to get your hands on these products, it just makes it a bit more expensive.
 
Flyingbullseye said:
Irony at its finest.
Learned something new everyday, Europeans can have semi's?
Click to expand...
Don't worry about any criticizing: you can bet that we have enough smart lawmakers here to think about, ( any euro-country has his own special- bunch of them) so that we can be quite busy with them, without the need of evaluating other's initiatives_
The perceived ITAR side effects, here, are mainly about an utter price's growth on the related U.S. items and the stop of any free/legal buy&sale between the average enthusiasts from both the sides of the ocean_ (I talk mainly about my country,of course)_
What once someone could have buyed straight from the U.S., now must be buyed from a local retailer,after the mandatory wholesaler import transit, with the ever pleasurable growing of the selling price_
That because, here or elsewhere, the main ending goal of all the safety regulations is about MAKIN'PROFIT, or better: the ending result of all those tricks is MAKIN'PROFIT,and the higher and the bigger the level of those who will MAKE this PROFIT, the better will be,of course_
By the way: yes,here we can have semiautos_
nein fullauto,nein suppressors,nein 9mm.luger,nein.50BMG,nein MG's,nein .500 Smith&Wesson_
" " " : no, we can't lawfully ventilate the bad guys without goin' Condemned_
Must be said that, notwithstanding the euro-trick, any country in EU has is own different regulations with the related inner and outer euro-hassles and euro-legal-confusions_Said that here isn't worse that other EUcountries, (and I well remember even when here it was worse)_
I don't know If have explained himself cleary enough but, if needed, I'm here to answer better again_
Regards!
(psst:....the same EU, euro currency included, it's only another BIGGER profit-trick !)
 
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Well put... If i shoot IPSC 10m from the "border" with 9x19 i'm perfectly ok but if i go to Italy with 9x19 instead of 9x21 i'm braking law in a major way (with emphasis there is no border between our two countries you simply drive/walk 11m further). Not to mention .308 or .223...
 
sharac said:
Well put... If i shoot IPSC 10m from the "border" with 9x19 i'm perfectly ok but if i go to Italy with 9x19 instead of 9x21 i'm braking law in a major way (with emphasis there is no border between our two countries you simply drive/walk 11m further). Not to mention .308 or .223...
Click to expand...

_ Italy has different inner gun laws, as different are the inner laws of each euro nation, notwithstanding the Bruxelles diktats_

nothing wrong,here, about .308 or .223, bolt action or semiauto_( fullautos are prohibited now,of course)_

if/when interested to go deeper about that for sporting purposes travels here, feel free to PM/e-mail me_
 
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Sean the Nailer said:
Same goes for the Giraud Case Annealer. Them too can't be shipped "out of country". Something about "ammunition manufacturing" or whatever. This is a GRINDING topic for me, and many other Canucks up here. (and so very many more parts/components/items that are just ridiculous)

I don't have anything good to say about this topic, especially since it is the (unmentionables) who are giving away this apparatus and technology to (them) right in front of us, let alone behind our backs.
Click to expand...


Yeah what he said...


I don't want a Giraud but this ITAR shit really grinds my gears.
 
LanceS4803 said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">ITAR is bullshit. It shouldn't be up to the government who small arms companies decide to do business with. Not only that, I tried buying a scope from Optics Planet at one point and the retarded ITAR compliance crap they make customers fill out is beyond retarded---I sent it to them at least half a dozen times before they would continue with the order. For a scope.... </div></div>

You might think differently if you knew what ITAR kept from being exported, everyday. (I work criminal cases on these.)
Commo equipment, night vision technology, drone parts, missile technology, etc. This stuff is highly sought after by our enemies who use straw purchasers in "friendly" countries to aquire it and pass it on.
BTW, I've to do the ITAR paperwork myself. I agree, it is a pain. But if it keeps AQ, or other countries, from our technology, it is worth it.
Click to expand...

As I reside in the country that is America's closest Alie, I find this A ****ing insult and the Fact is I am Extremely PRO AMERICAN and I buy ONLY US Products with the Few Canadian Items too, I have tried to buy either M19 or the M22 Steiner Binoculars and because that Prick Bush I have to buy inferiour product branded or the standatd models so I had to buy the Steiner Navigator 7x30s, and then one Day (2 and a 1/2 years Later) I found some company over here selling the Leupold Mark 4 Tactical 10x50 Bino's which are better than the steiners and I now have the ones with the Mildot Retical, and yes I know they are made in China but they are still made By Leupold and the Quality is as good as Swaros EL range etc, But they are an American Company and My Money has gone to a good Home and I'm good with that. Even Steiner in Germany would not supply me with the M19/M22s.

I always buy US/US Military Items Because if it Is Grunt Proof (No Disrespect) then it has to be the most Useful/Functional A Product can Be,,, I am So Proud that Leupold had the Balls to Market these things here and the next Items on my List are the Leupold MK4 spotting Scope and Their Mark 4 Rifle scopes,

When stuff gets sold in the UK the price is a Killer EG:- Swarovski EL 10x42 Rangerfinder Binos $3393.00,, Terrapin Range finder $3336.00 and the reason is all they do is change the Dollar sign to A Pound Sign, In the US the Mildot Master is $25.00 In the UK It is $68.00 Or £45.00, But anyway going back to ITAR what the hell is a pair of Bino's being sold to a Guy in the UK got to do with National Security, Theres hardly a chance of me Invading the US from 4000 miles away and the Odds of success are 260,000,000 To 1

(Are You Boys gettin Scared Yet),,,,LOL'

No Matter where TSHF, the UK is there along side the US so I think that it is stupid that the UK dose not use the same gear as the US, IE 7.62/5,56 hence why I perfer to buy US Mil/Tac equipment because in such times it pays to equip ones self with the most common issue items, Alot of you Guys hate Airsoft users, I do too, But they are as close to the real thing that most EU people can see or Use, In the US you can own shoot nearly just about anything,
This ITAR thing angers me Almost as much as Sex offender and Child Molesters and when I say almost I'm talking about 99.7% It pisses me off that much, you Guys hate the thought of not being allowed to Own AR's even though you can Own M24's, Yet I have found this ITAR thing covers alot more than Firearms, One of Leupold's Scopes are on the List (Thank God its not one I want) and as I said Steiners are on it yet Vortex Mildot is'nt nor is bushnell stuff S&B, Vectronix ETC,
Shot Guns are Limited to 3 Rounds in the UK, But Here Is the worst LAW EVER, In Australia It is Illegal to Own A Bullet Proof Vest because the Government wants to be able to shoot a Person, and dont forget that they rounded up all the Combat style Weapons,

So as I have been on the recieving end of all these Stupid Laws I see ITAR as another Government Theft and this crap has covered Guns Knives Bino's Molle Packs Scope/Bino Flash covers and the List goes on, and the Fact I watched all the programs about US Snipers and they only Optics they found in Iraq/Afganistan was a Pair of cheap Broken Made in Chine with one Lens missing Binos, I see ITAR as a Very restricted Friendship between the UK and the US and A big Advert for Mistrust, In the same way you Guys feel about your AR's, also even Broad head Arrows are illegal in the the UK, WHY??? because they can go through Bullet Proof Vests and Target Arrows are the Only Arrows that are Allowed, Hunting with Bows and CrossBows Is illegal in the UK, I wonder how that would go down in the US???.

Anyway, I have strayed a bit But that was only to show you that We the Aust/Anglo Right hand Of America have enough restrictions to Live with without ITAR Bending us over without even Giving us a ReachaRound.

Blessin's to all, John
 
As all things, there are always ways around stupid fucking regulations.

This is true for ITAR just as it is for lasers that civilians shouldn't own; ironic because most of us have one anyways.
 
Heres a funny one for ya, Over here I wanted to buy a .22 suppressor So I went to the Gun store and asked to look at some and the guy told me that if I was buying it for a .22LR then it would have to go on my Firearms Licence, BUT? If I was buying it for A .22 Air Rifle I can Buy it just like I was buying a News Paper So I bought 2 of them and the fact is anyone can buy them and say they want one for an Air Rifle and there good to go, and at 20 to $30 each makes me wonder why we have these crazy Laws,

The ITAR Issue only hurts the innocent folks, When you consider the pressent Syrian problem and the fact that that they have Russian made Rocket launchers mounted on Trucks and Chinesse made weapons and Optic along with much much more That in its self is a Proven Fact that ITAR does not work because as we all know China can build just about anything the rest of the world can, So ITAR Does Not Effect Terrorist type countries because China and Russia will sell them the Gear they want anyway, Back when Russia was in Afganistan the US tried to help the Afghans and at one time The UK Supported Saddam Hussain and now we are paying the price,
Along with the latest problem in Syria The Russian PM/Prez is once again not backing the UN Why because they are suppling their weapons and that Prick Putin always does this and Has done since the first Gulf War, So where in hell does these Law Makers think ITAR is a Working safety net against Terrorism,

John
 
TheGerman said:
As all things, there are always ways around stupid fucking regulations....
Click to expand...
yes,German
but those ways are ending with more cash about inflated prices thanks to those "stupid (?) "regulations_
everywhere_
the prices will progressively grow until unbearable from the most people_
the marked will be strangled from the pursuit of the immediate profit of the "public safety" lawmakers and their next associates_
when the commerce of the targeted items will be shrinked, the utterly shrinked incoming profit will lose appeal_
and the last few owners of the targeted items will be endangered species , and really they will be that_
no need to confiscate anything : the ending goal will be at the hand_
in the same way you can negotiate about payin'protection to the mobsters: you will pay progressively ever more, until the last step will be sell the full restaurant_ at the lower price_ to "them"_
Payin'the mobs could appear more "civilized" than be assaulted&robbed from them, but is my understanding that their goal is the same: to steal your money_and when you're down, put you out of business_ "civilization" ?: maybe_...but mobs are mobs,in my book_
I'ts not about one Country or another, or a Nation or another : that's plainly transnational,or whichever way could be better said_
BUT: even on the more "civilized" countries, (in my opinion "MORE", the more "civilized" the nations are) a flip of the wrist ,thanks to the "public safety" Holy Cause, and we could be all well worse and "more"restrictively f'ed up_ until the next and stricter flip _ dèja vu _
I sincerely wish my rant could be wrong _
 
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