Tired of going in circles trying to find an accuracy node

[Truth223]

I have around 500 rounds through my aac 700 .308. I feel like im running in circles with this rifle wasting components. Do any of these loads look promising? Should I try some LC brass? Or try to work up something with 175smk? Its a aac in a bell and Carlson a2, stock xmark crap trigger, pws prc brake, weaver rail and falcon menace 4x-14 scope. Im near my wits end with this rifle.

This is from today. I tried my hand at the moa challenge in GD. Im keeping this here and not embarrassing myself posting it in the GD thread.
43.3 gr Varget
168gr Sierra SMK
FC brass
Win primer



This is from today also. Worked up loads with IMR 4064.



Here are a few from a month or so ago

 

[seanh]

you need to do a ladder test...5 shot grouping isn't a ladder test.

 

[Truth223]

you need to do a ladder test...5 shot grouping isn't a ladder test.

I was reading about the ladder test method. I don't have the equipment to record every shot. Would the coloring every bullet method work, or does that kill accuracy?

 

[Hardmix]

The ladder test will definitely be the fastest way to find a good load. If you can not see the shots I would use colored pens and shoot at 300 yds.

Note your targets, for the most part, seem to have a fair amount horizontal stringing. This can be caused by jump, the gun or your input. I know when I am having a rough day I tend see lateral stringing. Anyway there are others here that are far more qualified than myself to give you more feedback.

My advise is go with the ladder test. Identify a charge your gun likes with this bullet then play with the jump.

One final note, if you can not get the 168's to cooperate I would try 43.0 gn of Varget with 175 Smk. This is a mild load that tends to shoot well in most 700's.

Hardmix

 

[seanh]

what equipment are you referring to? All that is needed is paper/pen. Maybe scope? You'll need a scope with enough power to resolve your caliber hole at 300 yards...you can do 200 but 300 gives you a better idea of node. If this is the case, get a set of bino's or inexpensive spotting scope...no need to go all out. I've got a set of 8-24x bino's...barska...cheap but they work

Don't know if coloring will help or not...I've never really done it. I have colored bullets to identify chambering issues but that's it...wasn't looking for any marking on the target. Will it hurt accuracy? If you're referring to coloring the bullet with different magic marker colors, no it won't.


Edit,...yea the 175's shot very well in my 700...but the 168's did as well. Was using 44.5grn Varget....got RL 15 to shoot well too...don't recall the load, I'd have to go back and check...43.4, I believe


I'll say that your 43.3 doesn't look bad. If you don't feel like screwing with it anymore, I'd look at that and just play with jump

 

[Truth223]

what equipment are you referring to? All that is needed is paper/pen. Maybe scope? You'll need a scope with enough power to resolve your caliber hole at 300 yards...you can do 200 but 300 gives you a better idea of node. If this is the case, get a set of bino's or inexpensive spotting scope...no need to go all out. I've got a set of 8-24x bino's...barska...cheap but they work

Don't know if coloring will help or not...I've never really done it. I have colored bullets to identify chambering issues but that's it...wasn't looking for any marking on the target. Will it hurt accuracy? If you're referring to coloring the bullet with different magic marker colors, no it won't.

My range only goes to 200 yards.

 

[seanh]

No problem...you'll just have to be more accurate with your shooting skills. You'll also have to analyze the stringing with a little more detail.

 

[bjay]

My range only goes to 200 yards.

I have milspec 5r 308 almost 90+% owner has a good luck using varget combo 168 175smk.so i started with 300bulets 175 200 168smks.i also try them ladder test out of that 500bullets i was having ecxect same result as you.then buy another lot 500 175 smk.i was going in circle back and fort.did try imr4064 theres only once on 4064 bughole once on varget.using all types of brass and primer switchin combination.i read few times 5r user great result rl15. I have those powder but i choosed to stick to varget.then the last 80 bullets i decided " ahh wut d hell! Gave ut a try straight to med load 43.5 and just played on OAL.first 5shot i was like "woa! One hole thats dog shit! Shot it again another one hole let friend try it another one hole! This was just the other day and im gonna tey tom again.
The 11oclock froup is from my fav varget load from all those load test its also good but nit as great as the rl15

The rifle.i also just received my bartlein 6mm barrel other day i was about to rebarel it to 6mm creedmoor... but now im like.... hmmmm later lol

 

[Truth223]

I do have 1lb of rl15, but ive been wanting to save it until I can find more. Looks like I should finally work up some loads with it and the 175smk. With LC brass and Win primers, what would be a good starting point to work up loads?

 

[bjay]

My range only goes to 200 yards.

I have milspec 5r 308 almost 90+% owner has a good luck using varget combo 168 175smk.so i started with 300bulets 175 200 168smks.i also try them ladder test out of that 500bullets i was having ecxect same result as you.then buy another lot 500 175 smk.i was going in circle back and fort.did try imr4064 theres only once on 4064 bughole once on varget.using all types of brass and primer switchin combination.i read few times 5r user great result rl15. I have those powder but i choosed to stick to varget.then the last 80 bullets i decided " ahh wut d hell! Gave ut a try straight to med load 43.5 and just played on OAL.first 5shot i was like "woa! One hole thats dog shit! Shot it again another one hole let friend try it another one hole! This was just the other day and im gonna tey tom again.
The 11oclock froup is from my fav varget load from all those load test its also good but nit as great as the rl15

The rifle.i also just received my bartlein 6mm barrel other day i was about to rebarel it to 6mm creedmoor... but now im like.... hmmmm later lol

 

[M40_A1]

Those advocating a ladder test, what good is a ladder test if a rifle isn't grouping well to begin with?

Truth223, are we to assume you were shooting those targets at 100 yards? Are the squares 1 inch?

 

[Pinecone]

OCW

OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

And Danhangs out here to help. Or you can hire him to consult directly.

 

[SPAK]

OP, not being an ass or anything, but how are you with your fundamentals? I learned the hard way that learning proper marksmanship and load development at the same time is counterproductive. How does the rifle shoot with another person shooting? Have you tried any factory match ammo?

 

[Dan Newberry]

It may be the Federal brass as much as anything. FC cases have gotten a lot better in recent years, but they still seem to want an annealing almost right away (after getting them from a once-fired source)... the necks are somewhat thicker, and a bit harder than Winchester necks. The FC case head, on the other hand, are softer. So it seems that while FC cases are good for very accurate factory stuff (the FGMM), they're not as good as they could be with an annealing and chamfering of the necks.

I don't get too fancy with annealing... here's a 2 minute video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlIjQ05aKzk

Your older groups look better, which may be because the brass wasn't as work hardened at that point.

Anneal the brass, be sure it's trimmed to spec, chamfer the case neck (at least do the inside)... and load 42 grains of either Varget or 4064 behind the 168's and see how it goes. Next higher node in the FC brass should be around 43.2 grains of either powder.

Lastly... it might be good to pick up a box of match grade factory ammo if you can find it, and see how it groups.

Dan

 

[melloyello]

Is your parallax set properly to the distance you are shooting? After you fire a round is your rifle still on target? Do you have a good repeatable cheek weld?
I would shoot some 168fgmm or 175fgmm in it and see if you get the same results. Or you could have someone that you know can put down some good groups to shoot it but use some proven rounds like fgmm. I had groups like yours when I first got my AAC-SD. My first problem was not having the butt properly shouldered and not squaring my shoulders. This was causing my muzzle to jump to the left sometimes. And on top of that I was having to hold my head up to get the same sight picture everytime. I fixed that by getting a stock pack and raising it up to fit me. Now, my 147fmj reloads are holding 1.5" or less at 100yds and my 175smk reloads are hanging around .6" at 100yds. Before I got my problems sorted out my 175smk load was showing me up to 1.25" at 100yds. Practice and setting the rifle up for me made a big difference.

 

[melloyello]

Back in March you posted this. "I shot my new aac build today for the first time. Took awhile to get sighted in but after a few rounds it was shooting .75 in groups at 100 yards and I'm a horrible shot."
This would lead me to believe that maybe you need more practice. I too considered myself a pretty horrible shot when I first got this rifle but I have put about 300rds down it in the last couple of months and have definitely gotten a lot better.

 

[Deadshot2]

Those advocating a ladder test, what good is a ladder test if a rifle isn't grouping well to begin with?

The idea of a ladder test is to eliminate all those loads that don't tend to group well to begin with.

As for color coding, I have found that a piece of "foam board" from Staples with a "Shoot N C" dot placed over to one side or the other works well as a target. Color code your bullets and crank some windage into the scope. You want the bullets to impact to the side of he aiming point (Dot). Fire ONE shot per charge weight from least to maximum. Color coding the bullet with colored sharpies (I bought a 24 piece Crayola Marker set and only use the dozen or so that have contrast with other colors).

The white foam board will give a good color marking. I take a small scrap of the foam board, record my shot numbers, and then put a stripe from the same color marker next to it. Helps "decode" the shots when you go looking for those shots that naturally group VERTICALLY.

200 yards will work too. The idea is to use a distance that will get some natural spread rather than a deceptive stacking of rounds like even bad loads can do at 100 yards.

 

[Truth223]

I ordered a timney 510 last night. I wont solve all of my problems, but it should atleast help. Im also tossing all of my FC brass and switching to LC brass.

 

[Truth223]

Is your parallax set properly to the distance you are shooting? After you fire a round is your rifle still on target? Do you have a good repeatable cheek weld?
I would shoot some 168fgmm or 175fgmm in it and see if you get the same results. Or you could have someone that you know can put down some good groups to shoot it but use some proven rounds like fgmm. I had groups like yours when I first got my AAC-SD. My first problem was not having the butt properly shouldered and not squaring my shoulders. This was causing my muzzle to jump to the left sometimes. And on top of that I was having to hold my head up to get the same sight picture everytime. I fixed that by getting a stock pack and raising it up to fit me. Now, my 147fmj reloads are holding 1.5" or less at 100yds and my 175smk reloads are hanging around .6" at 100yds. Before I got my problems sorted out my 175smk load was showing me up to 1.25" at 100yds. Practice and setting the rifle up for me made a big difference.

I do have a little trouble getting the same cheek weld due to the rifle moving after every shot. I have a triad stock pack, but don't use. Il put it back on next time I go shoot.

 

[Truth223]

Here are 3 groups of 168 FGGM . They aren't stellar, but as you can see they are tighter than my reloads.



I called this flier as soon as I pulled the trigger. I knew the shot was off.

 

[M40_A1]

My range only goes to 200 yards.

Those groups are better. Even at 100 yards, they'd be O.K., but at 200 I'd say they are excellent!

 

[Truth223]

Those groups are better. Even at 100 yards, they'd be O.K., but at 200 I'd say they are excellent!

Everything was shot at 100 yards.

 

[M40_A1]

The idea of a ladder test is to eliminate all those loads that don't tend to group well to begin with.

This isn't logical to me.

Say a rifle is typically capable of 1 MOA, a little worse with some loads, a little better with the best loads. Doing a ladder test at, say, 400 yards, groups will run around 4 inches diameter, or 2 inches radius. If you shoot one powder charge and the shot goes to the top of the two inch radius, and the next higher test charge impacts at the bottom of the 2 inch radius, they will go into the same hole, even though the actual centers of the groups were really 4 inches apart! Is that a node?

What about the same rifle at the same range, with two powder charges that are truly in a compatible node, but one shot impacts at the top of the 2 inch radius, while the other shot impacts at the bottom of the 2 inch radius, for a 4 inch distance between shot holes when it is actually in a node and the actual group centers are in the same spot!

No, the more precise the rifle and loads to begin with, the more legitimate a ladder test will be. Otherwise, you don't really know where, in the capability of the rifle, the shots will end up. They will in essence tell you nothing. And, again, the op will be burning up ammo and running in circles.

I understand the ladder method is used to find a range of powder charges that place the centers of groups at the same general elevation, without regard to size. It is a way to expedite powder charging, reduce the degree of precision needed in weighing charges, and to allow some room for variations in temperature. If the rifle doesn't shoot close enough to actual center (tight dispersion), the test will not give useful results. That's how I understand it.

 

[seanh]

Go back and study the intent of a ladder test. You should also go and research the mechanics involved during the shot process (internal ballistics). Once you understand this, you'll "Get" ladder testing.

Your statement of ladder testing "groups" indicates you don't know how to do a ladder test. You don't shoot for groups in a ladder test, it's one shot per charge. What you're looking for, which you do seem to grasp, is the area where you get say, 3 different loads placed closest together with the narrowest load difference. This will give you a node that difference in velocity makes less of a difference in shot placement. Keep in mind that a change in velocity/pressure can place the impact horizontally not only vertically.

Do the ladder test first and you'll shoot less rounds to develop a load.

 

[damoncali]

I realize this is an unpopular opinion, but M40_A1 is right. One shot is one shot, no matter what you do. Unless the variation in POI is large relative to the accuracy of the rifle, it's highly possible that you're fooling yourself with one shot/charge. You're better off doing a ladder with groups.

Ever notice how many threads there are that start with "Ladder Test: Opinions Please! Here's my target, what is going on?". That's because nothing is going on.

 

[jephthai]

I understand the ladder method is used to find a range of powder charges that place the centers of groups at the same general elevation, without regard to size. It is a way to expedite powder charging, reduce the degree of precision needed in weighing charges, and to allow some room for variations in temperature. If the rifle doesn't shoot close enough to actual center (tight dispersion), the test will not give useful results. That's how I understand it.

I believe Dan Newberry makes exactly the same point in his OCW materials. Namely, that deceptive anomalies can undermine the value of a ladder test, and lead the shooter to a false conclusion. I will be trying the OCW method for my next load. It is based on measuring the poa/poi metrics for groups to find the node instead of single shots for each powder charge.

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300T using Tapatalk 2

 

[M40_A1]

Go back and study the intent of a ladder test. You should also go and research the mechanics involved during the shot process (internal ballistics). Once you understand this, you'll "Get" ladder testing.

Your statement of ladder testing "groups" indicates you don't know how to do a ladder test. You don't shoot for groups in a ladder test, it's one shot per charge. What you're looking for, which you do seem to grasp, is the area where you get say, 3 different loads placed closest together with the narrowest load difference. This will give you a node that difference in velocity makes less of a difference in shot placement. Keep in mind that a change in velocity/pressure can place the impact horizontally not only vertically.

Do the ladder test first and you'll shoot less rounds to develop a load.

I'm pretty sure I understand what a ladder test is. I am fairly well versed in internal ballistics. I understand that "groups" are not fired during a ladder test, but that is where the problem lies with a rifle having a relatively wide dispersion pattern, which is my point.

I will grant two things.
One: Shot patterns consist of an extreme radius for any given range in which all shots can be expected to impact. Within that circle, the shot pattern will be more dense the closer to the center of the circle (natural "potential" group center).
Two: Given the geometry of a circle, of all points within a circle, there will be more toward the center elevation wise, as a circle is widest across the diameter and narrows the further up or down from the diameter one measures. (I think this may be what you are saying when you said, "Keep in mind that a change in velocity/pressure can place the impact horizontally not only vertically."


So, any given shot will more likely impact closer to the center of the rifle's natural pattern elevation wise, and a ladder test will weed out most shots that would otherwise impact in the top or bottom of the periphery of the natural pattern. But, the larger the natural pattern the rifle is capable of (larger "group", or dispersion) versus any change in elevation due to the load itself, the more likely the ladder test's results will be irrelevant.

Again, I'm not talking about shooting actual groups while doing a ladder test, but it's a falacy to ignore that a single shot is part of a theoretical group, or a point within the natural dispersion of a rifle for any given load. That's why I question why one would do a ladder test if the loads are grouping wider than any expected increase of elevation between test loads.

To say, "The idea of a ladder test is to eliminate all those loads that don't tend to group well to begin with." just doesn't make sense to me, especially as it is implied that the worse loads with the most natural dispersion will be the ones that are not in a node, and it seems to me those are the very ones most likely to muddy the results. Unless I'm reading it wrong, and he means that you weed out the loads that don't group well before you do a ladder test with the remaining loads that do group well(?).

(I get a feeling this has been hashed out before, and I'm just late to the party. Sorry if this is old banter.)

 

[melloyello]

This isn't logical to me.

Say a rifle is typically capable of 1 MOA, a little worse with some loads, a little better with the best loads. Doing a ladder test at, say, 400 yards, groups will run around 4 inches diameter, or 2 inches radius. If you shoot one powder charge and the shot goes to the top of the two inch radius, and the next higher test charge impacts at the bottom of the 2 inch radius, they will go into the same hole, even though the actual centers of the groups were really 4 inches apart! Is that a node?

What about the same rifle at the same range, with two powder charges that are truly in a compatible node, but one shot impacts at the top of the 2 inch radius, while the other shot impacts at the bottom of the 2 inch radius, for a 4 inch distance between shot holes when it is actually in a node and the actual group centers are in the same spot!

No, the more precise the rifle and loads to begin with, the more legitimate a ladder test will be. Otherwise, you don't really know where, in the capability of the rifle, the shots will end up. They will in essence tell you nothing. And, again, the op will be burning up ammo and running in circles.

I understand the ladder method is used to find a range of powder charges that place the centers of groups at the same general elevation, without regard to size. It is a way to expedite powder charging, reduce the degree of precision needed in weighing charges, and to allow some room for variations in temperature. If the rifle doesn't shoot close enough to actual center (tight dispersion), the test will not give useful results. That's how I understand it.

You hit the nail on the head. I said the same thing and I don't think a lot of people understand what you are saying. I tried explaining this to John Mcquay and he covered it on Mail Call Monday not too long ago. I don't think he understood my question either. You and I both understand that we aren't shooting groups at 400yds in a ladder test but for some reason or another others can't understand this. What is so hard to understand that if a charge of 43gr could be in a 4" window at 400yds and the same goes for 43.3gr and 43.6gr that you can't base anything on them landing close together or far apart. The more I think about ladder testing the dumber it sounds. This probably will piss a lot of people off but go out shoot 5 ladder tests of the same charges and put them side by side and see if you get the same results everytime. You won't and if you could somehow overlap those results you will see what I am talking about when I say 4" window. On a benchrest rig that holds ridiculous groups at distance I can see where this testing MIGHT work but when I watch videos like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QEdZ7k_6-cE it's pretty obvious that this guy is looking for GROUPS in a ladder test. People tell me I don't understand but he clearly says GROUPS with least amount of vertical. "You may see overlapping at shorter distances or guns that don't shoot as small groups."
I tried ladder testing. I like OCW better.(it's really easy to see a POI shift)

 

[jsthntn247]

I'd say you have a bad barrel. If you keep blowing components, you could have bought a good barrel.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-sucker-remington-aac-sd-just-wont-shoot.html

 

[Truth223]

Something else I just thought of, Ive switched optics also. The groups fired a few months ago were with a Swfa ss 10x, and then I bought a falcon menace 4x-14. Im not sure if that would have any effect on anything.

 

[M40_A1]

Retry it. If your loads still are not up to the standard of 168FGMM, then try loading some loads equivalent to 168FGMM to compare the results. If your equivalent loads shoot wider than factory 168FGMM, then review your loading methods.

 

[M40_A1]

The more I think about ladder testing the dumber it sounds.

IF a rifle is already a tack driver, I can see a decided advange in using the ladder method. Otherwise, and this seems to pertain to the op's situation, use another method. JMO until I'm convinced otherwise.

 

[bjay]

I'd say you have a bad barrel. If you keep blowing components, you could have bought a good barrel.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-sucker-remington-aac-sd-just-wont-shoot.html

Funny me beeper n truth havve the same problem me n beeb already solve problem by switchin powder..like what i posted above..this just tells me ...truth try them too..switch powder

 

[bjay]

Here are 3 groups of 168 FGGM . They aren't stellar, but as you can see they are tighter than my reloads.



I called this flier as soon as I pulled the trigger. I knew the shot was off.

This result telling me that gun csn stable/shoot good!! Your problem is at the LOAD..try diff combination. If you have to clone this factory with a litle tweak make it little more precise go for it..good luck mate

 

[seanh]

one thing that I started doing in load development was to adjust the scope so I don't aim at my group. For example, have your x-hairs aiming at 9 o'clock and the impact being at 12, 1, 3 etc. What this does is allow the impact to not distract you...your aiming point is the same regardless. When we shoot for groups, often we try to "push" the shot unintentionally...this helps keep that from happening.

What was mentioned earlier "have someone else shoot" also helps to remove the shooter from the equation.

 

[QuickNDirty]

one thing that I started doing in load development was to adjust the scope so I don't aim at my group. For example, have your x-hairs aiming at 9 o'clock and the impact being at 12, 1, 3 etc. What this does is allow the impact to not distract you...your aiming point is the same regardless. When we shoot for groups, often we try to "push" the shot unintentionally...this helps keep that from happening.

What was mentioned earlier "have someone else shoot" also helps to remove the shooter from the equation.

My strategy was to aim at the base of the black circle with equal portions on either side of the vertical line __EVERY__ time, and I dialed my scope in so the POI of the slowest rounds would be at the bottom of the target so I had plenty of room to work my way up.










Range ~700 yards, rifle: Remington 700 AAC-SD

the shots 7, 8, 9, and A were from 39.9-40.8 grains grains of N140 and using 180 grain sierra game king bullets.

the circled group was 5 rounds of 38.0 grains of N140 with 180 grain sierra game kings. It was < 4 inches wide =)

Birchwood target was @ 100 yards.
The bottom dot on the birchwood target was 10 rounds of 38.0 grains of N140 with 180 grain sierra match kings.
The top one was 10 rounds of 37.5 grains of N140 with 200 grain sierra match kings.

 

[seanh]

Quick...
I'd probably be looking at developing a load around 7. 8/9 don't seem to be too far out...if you go to 9, 8/10 are too far out...6 5/7 are too far out. 4?...too bad 5 is so far out.


Not bad grouping...not to be critical but I think you rushed your shots. As a penalty, you are now required to go back to the range...50-100 slow fire shots. You are also required to go shoot in high winds and or raining conditions. Upon completion of the day at the range, you need to finish it with a 6-pack or your favorite mixed drink.

 

[QuickNDirty]

Quick...
I'd probably be looking at developing a load around 7. 8/9 don't seem to be too far out...if you go to 9, 8/10 are too far out...6 5/7 are too far out. 4?...too bad 5 is so far out.


Not bad grouping...not to be critical but I think you rushed your shots. As a penalty, you are now required to go back to the range...50-100 slow fire shots. You are also required to go shoot in high winds and or raining conditions. Upon completion of the day at the range, you need to finish it with a 6-pack or your favorite mixed drink.

Sounds like you're volunteering to be my instructor. We can definitely use my range, but the one I had set up was right after the land owners logged it. Things have grown up since then, and visibility is a bit of a challenge =)

I'm in H-town, too.

 

[seanh]

I'd be glad to help out any way I can. Just PM me and we'll work out a time and hit the range.


where can you shoot at 700 around H-town? Even on private lands it seems that's a bit of a stretch.

 

[TwoGun]

The most important part of your reloading isn't listed and that's the dies. It's tough to approach decent factory loads with crap dies.

So what dies are you using?

 

[QuickNDirty]

I'd be glad to help out any way I can. Just PM me and we'll work out a time and hit the range.


where can you shoot at 700 around H-town? Even on private lands it seems that's a bit of a stretch.

American Shooting Center has a 600yard line IIRC, never shot there, but bought a cz 75 in the parking lot once.

I have a lease a little North of Nacogdoches and the property owner is a paper company, so they log it every now and then.

There's a couple of mountains on the property, and if I were capable, I could shoot 1500+ yards (mountain top to mountain top). Mostly just a fun idea to think about. People do live around there.

The big one on the left has a portion of the top of it clear cut, and behind the camera is another one. Otherwise, the "range" is out front.

 

[Truth223]

The most important part of your reloading isn't listed and that's the dies. It's tough to approach decent factory loads with crap dies.

So what dies are you using?

Lee single stage press and rcbs dies

 

[TwoGun]

The most important die is the seater. If your seater die does not completely support the case, your bullet will not be straight in the neck. Instead, it'll have a little cant or tilt to it. I would suggest you get a decent bullet seating die like this one:

Forster Bench Rest Seater Die 308 Winchester

Bullet concentricity or run-out is very important. If you can't afford a decent seater die, there is a technique by which you rotate the case incrementally while seating to try an average out the slop of your die. Try getting on youtube and watch the videos on bullet run out or concentricity.

 

[TwoGun]

I tried to post some information but it appears that due to my low post count, it needs to be approved by a moderator. It's great to be a newbie again! (since 2006)

 

[Deadshot2]

The most important part of your reloading isn't listed and that's the dies. It's tough to approach decent factory loads with crap dies.

So what dies are you using?

Dies aren't always the answer. I've shot sub .200" groups with ammo loaded using Lee Dies and then posted groups that looked more like "shotgun patterns" using Match Grade Dies.

The biggest issue where dies come into play is the basic brass quality. You can't size a case straight if you're working with poor quality brass.

In short, it starts with quality components and the rest of the "total package".

And in the end, when you're using all the best, and still not getting the desired results, maybe some "shooter analysis" is in order.

 

[TwoGun]

Dies aren't always the answer. I've shot sub .200" groups with ammo loaded using Lee Dies and then posted groups that looked more like "shotgun patterns" using Match Grade Dies.

The biggest issue where dies come into play is the basic brass quality. You can't size a case straight if you're working with poor quality brass.

In short, it starts with quality components and the rest of the "total package".

And in the end, when you're using all the best, and still not getting the desired results, maybe some "shooter analysis" is in order.

A decent seating die is the start. You can get a lucky group anytime. You are not going to get consistent concentricity without a fully supported seating die.

David Tubb has an excellent video on DVD called High Power Rifle Reloading which was produced by Sierra. That video has 90% of the information you'll need to get consistent decent groups. It's not the end all but you'll learn a lot by watching it. It's worth buying.