Unless he zero'd out his calipers on a bullet then he is fine.... That is how most of the guys on the shootout threads do it. Zero out on bullet and measure outside of the bullet hole.
- Thread starter bluto77
- Start date
Ah, makes sense. 
Yes, I zeroed the calipers at .224. Thanks for the compliments on my shooting. I agree, I do think it is improving. I'm going to start shooting prone soon. I'm sure there will be a small learning curve at first, but I'll get better results in the long run.
This is getting very interesting over on Barfcom:
Why am I seeing 3-shot groups on the test targets for OBR's? - AR15.COM
Why am I seeing 3-shot groups on the test targets for OBR's? - AR15.COM
Here you go my friend!!! I still haven't outshot the DPMS bull barrel with a trigger job, but I'm making progress. As you can see, the rifle shoots better than the average indicates. The flyer in group 2 and group 6 are both human error and not indicative of the rifles capabilities.
I'd like some opinions about anything I may be doing wrong with my form, based on the patterns of the groups. Even though this improvement was from using ammo the rifle likes more, I can still be getting better on my end. I"m going to have to be on my A-Game to ever catch the leader on the board.
I was wondering. If just at least for shits and giggles try shooting three shot groups and lets see what happens. I dont think that 3 shot groups ate a true measure but it would be sn interesting test.
Ask and ye shall receive.....
I shot a bunch of 3 shot groups while trying the different ammo yesterday. I had 4 types of ammo and shot 3, 3 shot groups with both the LaRue and the Colt. Three shot groups probably give a better idea of what the rifle is capable of, but as you can see...not the shooter!
Federal Gold Medal Match 77gr SMK
Federal Gold Medal Match 69gr SMK
Hornady 75gr BTHP
Copper Creek 60gr
I shot a bunch of 3 shot groups while trying the different ammo yesterday. I had 4 types of ammo and shot 3, 3 shot groups with both the LaRue and the Colt. Three shot groups probably give a better idea of what the rifle is capable of, but as you can see...not the shooter!
Federal Gold Medal Match 77gr SMK
Federal Gold Medal Match 69gr SMK
Hornady 75gr BTHP
Copper Creek 60gr
In an effort to further tighten groups, I've ordered a Magpul PRS and Geissele SSA-E for the larue. I'll have to get a different spring, buffer, and tube. Does someone have suggestions on any of those?
Hey Bluto, this may be a little late to suggest, but have you considered the SAPR? I have one on my OBR heavy, and it gives me a great cheekweld.
The Geissele SSA-E will work very well with your LaRue and I am should make a difference! It did on all my AR's, considerable!
I'd sell the larue to some arfcom fanboy, buy another one of those colts, and laugh all the way to the bank with the extra 1000 dollars.
Umm. Your larue should already have a ssa-e in it I believe?
This....
From your pictures and the moving POI's I'm not seeing statistical evidence that one is better than the other. I didn't read the whole thread... what are you using for a rest? Bipod & bag? Bags? Are you adjusting parallax properly and do you have a good round sight picture when you rest your cheek firmly on the stock?
There's something going on there with both rifles (so... leads me to believe it's the shooter) that I think can be fixed with proper breathing, pressure on the bipod, trigger pull, follow through or form.... once you start to see those groups fall in consistently the same POI, you'll know you're doing your job, the ammos on and the rifle is a shooter. Until then... you only know that every once in a while they both give you great 3 shot groups, but not always in the same place. You move out to 600 yds and some of those groups would be off the plate.
I'm not trying to bust your chops Bluto... I think you'll be a LOT happier when you really get to the bottom of this...
John
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Yes, the shooter is the main cause of issue here, but that's consistent with both rifles. I don't put much stock in 3 shot groups. I was only using those to get an idea about the various ammos. When comparing the 5 shot groups, the larue has shot consistently better. So the colt is the one I'm selling. Plus I'm a texas guy, so I want it to be a shooter. While the qualifying factors determining which one is a better shooter are debatable, the colt simply hasn't been able to produce average group sizes that are smaller than the larue, by me or by another guy that shoots with me. Both rifles have room for improvement, so I'm choosing one and moving forward.
I've used the PRS before and really liked it. The obr has a geissele 2 stage, but not the ssae. I'm adding both of these, and I was wondering if anyone had suggestions on the spring, buffer, or buffer tube.
John, I appreciate your input. Please check out the rest of the thread for more info. I'm interested in what else you may have to add by assessing my shooting ability.
I've used the PRS before and really liked it. The obr has a geissele 2 stage, but not the ssae. I'm adding both of these, and I was wondering if anyone had suggestions on the spring, buffer, or buffer tube.
John, I appreciate your input. Please check out the rest of the thread for more info. I'm interested in what else you may have to add by assessing my shooting ability.
Ha ha... I totally get that.
OK.. went back and read the whole thread, mostly to look at the other groups. If you want to keep the Larue, I understand... You shoot well, but I think if you know *what* to look for, you will be shooting better. Soon.
What I was just trying to point out above, and maybe I didn't make myself very clear... if your POI is shifting from group to group.... it's possible that it's shifting from shot to shot and the data you're collecting is not really telling you what you think it is... so I was concerned that you *might* be making the decision for the wrong (or at least inconclusive) reasons.
One of the first things I look for in groups, mine and others, when evaluating is not the size of the group, but is the center consistently in the same place... if is NOT, the system is not performing optimally.... ammo, rifle, scope, mount, float of barrel, shooter... something. Narrowing that down can be difficult, but in your case, you have two rifles with lots of different ammo that show wandering centers (POI). To shoot consistently centered (and small) groups, EVERYTHING has to be identical from shot-to-shot... parallax must be adjusted perfectly so as you move your head around behind the scope, the crosshairs stay perfectly centered, your cheek pressure and position and eye relief have to be the same, pressure against the buttstock (bipod loading), trigger pull and follow through, where in the breath cycle you break the trigger... the more consistent you can make all of those things the smaller you groups will get and you will see them fall in exactly the same "center" every time.
Another way to think about this... when we talk about a gun being 1 moa, we typically think of 1 moa groups. I don't. I think that rifle and I should be able to hit a 1" coin at 100 yds EVERY time. If I cannot, one of us is not 1 moa. This is where the dot drill comes in...
One last thought.... I have found gas guns to be especially finicky with regard to extreme accuracy. I have shot 1/4 MOA groups at 500 and 750 yds. with my bolt gun, so I have fairly high expectations of myself and my equipment... but when I first started shooting these damn rattle-trap things, I really struggled and that is because there IS a lot of movement going on in there before the bullet leaves the barrel. I have found that I need to drive my gasser harder than my bolt gun to achieve the accuracy I desire. YMMV.
I apologize if you know all these things (and remember, knowing and executing are two different things... practice, practice practice)... really just trying to help... and I like to see people achieve their goals...
Keep the Larue and work on those POI's and I think you'll find that very, very soon you (and it) will be shooting to your expectations.
John
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Took me a WHILE to work my way through this thread and see all the recommendations. I was kind of surprised that it wasn't until nearly the end that someone hit on scope parallax, which from your groups look like it could be a factor so definitely start there.
Positionally, your shooting-hand grip is also a HUGE factor on a gas gun. Some require you to torque the crap out of them, others require only finger tip pressure. LaRue rifles generally require a light shooting grip, similar to a bolt gun where only your finger tips are in contact with the front of the pistol grip and your thumb is NOT wrapped around the grip (for precision shooting). Keep in mind that there's a bigger variance in this between bolt guns and gas guns, so you may need to experiment with different grip pressure, rearward pressure into the shoulder, bipod load, etc. But only change ONE variable per grouping series so you can see what effect it has. Even if there's not an improvement, you're seeing the EFFECT each change has on how the rifle behaves. Their rifles generally prefer a heavier load on a bipod. If you're shooting front and rear bags you're not able to really load the rifle.
As another member also hit on, your follow through is MASSIVELY important on a gas gun so make sure you're hearing the reset "clunk" after each round.
As jrob said, whatever your rifle is doing, it should be doing it consistently. You may have tighter or looser groups but with the same ammo they should be high, low, right, left, whatever. If your groups are dancing around center then there's either a loose mechanical component, scope parallax, or an unintented shooter imput.
Many kudos on the effort you're putting into this bro. WAY too many people would just throw a fit, jump on the "fuck LaRue" bandwagon, and give up. You should be very proud of the effort and the results so far, and when it's all said and done and you're shooting that thing to its potential you are goign to KNOW that rifle front to back and exactly what it takes to make it run for you. Best of luck with it brother.
Positionally, your shooting-hand grip is also a HUGE factor on a gas gun. Some require you to torque the crap out of them, others require only finger tip pressure. LaRue rifles generally require a light shooting grip, similar to a bolt gun where only your finger tips are in contact with the front of the pistol grip and your thumb is NOT wrapped around the grip (for precision shooting). Keep in mind that there's a bigger variance in this between bolt guns and gas guns, so you may need to experiment with different grip pressure, rearward pressure into the shoulder, bipod load, etc. But only change ONE variable per grouping series so you can see what effect it has. Even if there's not an improvement, you're seeing the EFFECT each change has on how the rifle behaves. Their rifles generally prefer a heavier load on a bipod. If you're shooting front and rear bags you're not able to really load the rifle.
As another member also hit on, your follow through is MASSIVELY important on a gas gun so make sure you're hearing the reset "clunk" after each round.
As jrob said, whatever your rifle is doing, it should be doing it consistently. You may have tighter or looser groups but with the same ammo they should be high, low, right, left, whatever. If your groups are dancing around center then there's either a loose mechanical component, scope parallax, or an unintented shooter imput.
Many kudos on the effort you're putting into this bro. WAY too many people would just throw a fit, jump on the "fuck LaRue" bandwagon, and give up. You should be very proud of the effort and the results so far, and when it's all said and done and you're shooting that thing to its potential you are goign to KNOW that rifle front to back and exactly what it takes to make it run for you. Best of luck with it brother.
Great info guys! I'm posting from a pad right now, and its hard to type out long replies. I'm going to reply when I get back to my computer this evening.
What else besides POI shift should I be looking for in my groups? What do some of those things tell the shooter?
I have my scope parralx set at 100yds. What else goes into that?
I "load" the front bag somewhat, but I find it hard to apply the necessary amount. The larue will shoot all over the place if the bag ist loaded.
What else besides POI shift should I be looking for in my groups? What do some of those things tell the shooter?
I have my scope parralx set at 100yds. What else goes into that?
I "load" the front bag somewhat, but I find it hard to apply the necessary amount. The larue will shoot all over the place if the bag ist loaded.
As in you have the parralax dialed to the number 100 or you moved the dial till the image was clear? Most are not enough close to correct and it depends on the power used and the outside elements.
Like poison said, focus, the number on the dial and parallax can be three different things. What you're looking for is ZERO movement of the crosshairs on your target as you move your eye around behind the scope. Keep moving your eye and moving the parallax knob until this gets as close as possible. It may NOT be perfectly focused. This all presumes that you set your ocular focus up properly to begin with. This will help negate any positional error behind the scope. So many variables!
Have you tried the bipod and rear bag? A lot easier to load than a front bag, although I found the Harris to be more stable for me than the Atlas. Again, YMMV.
John
Have you tried the bipod and rear bag? A lot easier to load than a front bag, although I found the Harris to be more stable for me than the Atlas. Again, YMMV.
John
Yep! Start with your Ocular focus (the little ring at the "little" end of the scope, which will generally have numbers such as -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 etc), use THAT ring to focus the crosshairs themselves and make them as clear as possible. That basically "calibrates" the scope to your eyes and vision. After you have the crosshair as clear as you can, sight in on the target and move your head up and down, side to side, circles, whatever. If the point of aim of your crosshairs move relative to their position on the target then you have parallax, so use the parallax knob to focus and make the target as clear as possible and verify that you've eliminated parallax by moving your head around again, if you've eliminated parallax your point of aim should not move when you move the position of your head. Not all scopes/manufacturers are perfectly calibrated to the extent that "100" on the knob is the ACTUAL focus needed at 100yds, plus the variables of YOUR eyes and the power level of the scope etc.
It seems jrob and I are pretty much coming from the same place on our posts, so no disrespect to jrob or you for being repetitive: you can't really "load" a forward bag, and it's unlikely you can CONSISTENTLY load it because it's separate from your rifle and will move around, change shape from the last "loading" etc. so use the bipod and through the process of building your position apply the same forward pressure into the bipod each time. Every gas gun seems to have it's sweet-spot of how much load gives the best result, so experiment with different levels from a really aggressive load similar to how you'd shoot a machinegun all the way through a neutral load and even a negative load where you're sucking the thing BACK. Some of those loads are going to give you SHITTY results, but ONE of them is going to be "right" and you'll see it in your group.
Gas guns are just MUCH more sensitive to shooter imput. It doesn't have to be shooter "error" for the rifle to respond negatively, there's just a certain collection of things coming from YOU that are going to make that particular rifle perform the best. And that's everything that's been thrown at you so far: grip, cheek weld, pressure of the cheek weld, bipod load, rear bag position (keep your rear hand from touching the rifle at all, ONLY touch the bag), your position relative to the rifle (square, canted, etc), trigger pressure and follow through, etc.
It seems jrob and I are pretty much coming from the same place on our posts, so no disrespect to jrob or you for being repetitive: you can't really "load" a forward bag, and it's unlikely you can CONSISTENTLY load it because it's separate from your rifle and will move around, change shape from the last "loading" etc. so use the bipod and through the process of building your position apply the same forward pressure into the bipod each time. Every gas gun seems to have it's sweet-spot of how much load gives the best result, so experiment with different levels from a really aggressive load similar to how you'd shoot a machinegun all the way through a neutral load and even a negative load where you're sucking the thing BACK. Some of those loads are going to give you SHITTY results, but ONE of them is going to be "right" and you'll see it in your group.
Gas guns are just MUCH more sensitive to shooter imput. It doesn't have to be shooter "error" for the rifle to respond negatively, there's just a certain collection of things coming from YOU that are going to make that particular rifle perform the best. And that's everything that's been thrown at you so far: grip, cheek weld, pressure of the cheek weld, bipod load, rear bag position (keep your rear hand from touching the rifle at all, ONLY touch the bag), your position relative to the rifle (square, canted, etc), trigger pressure and follow through, etc.
I will be using a bipod from here on out. I have an Atlas and a Harris, so I'll figure out which one seems to work best and do from there. That will be a very basic trial and error type of thing as I don't want to add too much of that variable to the equation. I'll probably just stick with the Atlas and run with it. I know what you're saying about not being able to consistently "load" a front bag. There's not consistency at all, and the lack of consistency with the loading that front bag is likely the biggest contributor to varying group POI. Through shooting all of these groups I have found "load" to be one of the largest factors. Ergo, once I get the bipod figured out, I can at least somewhat eliminate that variable.
Bogeybrown:
Will you please give me a step by step instruction on how YOU adjust the ocular focus on your scopes? I've followed the manufacturers instructions on mine, but that's not to say there isn't a better way to do it. It also seems like the instructions per manufacturer are somewhat differing. I have a new Bushnell XRS coming this week, so I may use that one, or I"ll be using another Vortex Razor. I'm going to send the one on the rifle in to vortex to be checked out to make sure it's working properly. I also have a mount coming that will put it directly above the action and not straddle the area where the action goes to the barrel....even though it theoretically shouldn't matter because of the extended rail. I will make sure optics remain a constant and are completely removed from this equation.
The next step will be putting the front rest at a constant, which will be achieved by adding a quality bipod, and making sure it is used properly. Enough can't be said about this. I've seen groups jump all over the board while trying different things with bipod, no bipod, and pressure added on different points. I already keep a pretty light touch on the rifle, but I'll be sure to continue that, and I'll also start trying keeping my thumb on the fore side of the grip and not wrapping it around the pistol grip. I can see how that is beneficial.
John, can you please elaborate on what I should be looking for on POI from group to group?
Thanks again for all the solid feedback guys. I really appreciate it. One thing I did not want to happen, in spite of some of the other recent threads, was for this one to spiral into a Snipershide hates LaRue thread. I can't tell you all how happy I am that you've respected my wishes, and we've moved past how most of you feel about Mark LaRue and/or his products. I'm just trying to get the damn rifle to shoot the way I think it's capable of shooting, and I'm humble to the fact that I'm no expert marksman. So if I can learn more about being a marksman in general, while also learning about how to get this rifle shooting to its capabilities, then I'm happier-n-shit!!!
Bogeybrown:
Will you please give me a step by step instruction on how YOU adjust the ocular focus on your scopes? I've followed the manufacturers instructions on mine, but that's not to say there isn't a better way to do it. It also seems like the instructions per manufacturer are somewhat differing. I have a new Bushnell XRS coming this week, so I may use that one, or I"ll be using another Vortex Razor. I'm going to send the one on the rifle in to vortex to be checked out to make sure it's working properly. I also have a mount coming that will put it directly above the action and not straddle the area where the action goes to the barrel....even though it theoretically shouldn't matter because of the extended rail. I will make sure optics remain a constant and are completely removed from this equation.
The next step will be putting the front rest at a constant, which will be achieved by adding a quality bipod, and making sure it is used properly. Enough can't be said about this. I've seen groups jump all over the board while trying different things with bipod, no bipod, and pressure added on different points. I already keep a pretty light touch on the rifle, but I'll be sure to continue that, and I'll also start trying keeping my thumb on the fore side of the grip and not wrapping it around the pistol grip. I can see how that is beneficial.
John, can you please elaborate on what I should be looking for on POI from group to group?
Thanks again for all the solid feedback guys. I really appreciate it. One thing I did not want to happen, in spite of some of the other recent threads, was for this one to spiral into a Snipershide hates LaRue thread. I can't tell you all how happy I am that you've respected my wishes, and we've moved past how most of you feel about Mark LaRue and/or his products. I'm just trying to get the damn rifle to shoot the way I think it's capable of shooting, and I'm humble to the fact that I'm no expert marksman. So if I can learn more about being a marksman in general, while also learning about how to get this rifle shooting to its capabilities, then I'm happier-n-shit!!!
Sure brother, no problem. This is an area that consistently kicks my ass because even at 40 I still have vision better than 20/20, so my eyes will adjust even when the crosshairs aren't right. The nice thing is that once your ocular focus is set, you don't mess with it again unless your vision changes so it's worth the effort in the beginning.
**EDIT**It's preferable to conduct your scope setup on max power, and parallax has to be checked/adjusted for every distance**
There's a few schools of thought on the "easiest" way, for me and my eyes I have to sight on a blank target board or something so my eyes have nothing to focus on BUT the crosshairs. As soon as I look through the scope (before my eyes can correct) I make a judgement on whether the crosshairs are crisp and focused, if they're not I make an adjustment to the focus ring and then try again, I keep at this by trial and error until I find what looks to be the most focused, then look away then look back through the scope until I feel that the crosshairs are crisp and in focus. As I said, the ocular is completely individual to YOUR eyes, so depending on your vision it may be REALLY apparent that your crosshairs are fuzzy.
Once your ocular focus is set you then concentrate on your parallax knob (target focus). Use the parallax adjustment to focus on your target and make it as clear as possible. Place your crosshairs on a target grid line, or some other reference point and move your head up and down (without moving the rifle=just move your head) if the crosshairs move in reference to that line or reference mark then keep adjusting parallax until there is no movement of the crosshairs as you move your head.
A simple way to picture this effect is to hold one of your fingers up in front of you at arms length. Focus on your finger (one eye closed is easiest) and place it on a reference mark (light switch, door knob, whatever). With your finger in focus and on that reference mark nod your head up and down and you will see the "target" move in relation to your stationary finger::::::THAT is parallax, the relationship of two object in different focal planes (I'm not a scientist but I think that's a reasonable definition). NOW, walk forward and place your finger on the light switch or whatever. Now no matter what you do with your head, the "target" does not move in relation to your finger. This is what you're seeking to achieve by adjusting for parallax: you're seeking to place a clear crisp crosshair and a clear crisp target in the same focal plane of your vision so that as far as your eyes can tell the crosshairs are essentially ON that sheet of target paper.
I know earlier in the thread there was alot of attention focused on your scope mounting arrangement and you've elected to change mounts. When you mount the new scope I'd recommend having a friend, girlfriend, whoever help you so that you can get your natural shooting position and have the other person move the scope (loose in the mount) until you have proper eye-relief. Get your NATURAL shooting position and cheek weld, have them position the scope with the front lens cover CLOSED, when you're in your position have them open it. If you have to cheat your face forward or back----DON"T. Close the lens cover, have them move it forward or back either the whole mount or sliding the scope within the rings, keep your natural position and have them re-open the cover, keep doing this until you can lay completely comfortably in your position and look through the optic with zero shadow. Shadow will screw you, and forcing a position to eliminate it will wreck your positional consistency.
Before tightening down remember to go through your leveling procedure for the scope in it's new mount. It would be a shame to go through all this crap to end up with a crooked mounting.
Best of luck bro. Much respect for your approach to all this, and for demanding in the beginning that the post stay on topic. I generally avoid discussing my LaRue gear simply because it takes about ONE response for the sh*t to start.
**EDIT**It's preferable to conduct your scope setup on max power, and parallax has to be checked/adjusted for every distance**
There's a few schools of thought on the "easiest" way, for me and my eyes I have to sight on a blank target board or something so my eyes have nothing to focus on BUT the crosshairs. As soon as I look through the scope (before my eyes can correct) I make a judgement on whether the crosshairs are crisp and focused, if they're not I make an adjustment to the focus ring and then try again, I keep at this by trial and error until I find what looks to be the most focused, then look away then look back through the scope until I feel that the crosshairs are crisp and in focus. As I said, the ocular is completely individual to YOUR eyes, so depending on your vision it may be REALLY apparent that your crosshairs are fuzzy.
Once your ocular focus is set you then concentrate on your parallax knob (target focus). Use the parallax adjustment to focus on your target and make it as clear as possible. Place your crosshairs on a target grid line, or some other reference point and move your head up and down (without moving the rifle=just move your head) if the crosshairs move in reference to that line or reference mark then keep adjusting parallax until there is no movement of the crosshairs as you move your head.
A simple way to picture this effect is to hold one of your fingers up in front of you at arms length. Focus on your finger (one eye closed is easiest) and place it on a reference mark (light switch, door knob, whatever). With your finger in focus and on that reference mark nod your head up and down and you will see the "target" move in relation to your stationary finger::::::THAT is parallax, the relationship of two object in different focal planes (I'm not a scientist but I think that's a reasonable definition). NOW, walk forward and place your finger on the light switch or whatever. Now no matter what you do with your head, the "target" does not move in relation to your finger. This is what you're seeking to achieve by adjusting for parallax: you're seeking to place a clear crisp crosshair and a clear crisp target in the same focal plane of your vision so that as far as your eyes can tell the crosshairs are essentially ON that sheet of target paper.
I know earlier in the thread there was alot of attention focused on your scope mounting arrangement and you've elected to change mounts. When you mount the new scope I'd recommend having a friend, girlfriend, whoever help you so that you can get your natural shooting position and have the other person move the scope (loose in the mount) until you have proper eye-relief. Get your NATURAL shooting position and cheek weld, have them position the scope with the front lens cover CLOSED, when you're in your position have them open it. If you have to cheat your face forward or back----DON"T. Close the lens cover, have them move it forward or back either the whole mount or sliding the scope within the rings, keep your natural position and have them re-open the cover, keep doing this until you can lay completely comfortably in your position and look through the optic with zero shadow. Shadow will screw you, and forcing a position to eliminate it will wreck your positional consistency.
Before tightening down remember to go through your leveling procedure for the scope in it's new mount. It would be a shame to go through all this crap to end up with a crooked mounting.
Best of luck bro. Much respect for your approach to all this, and for demanding in the beginning that the post stay on topic. I generally avoid discussing my LaRue gear simply because it takes about ONE response for the sh*t to start.
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Excellent writeup on scope positioning, focus and parallax adjustment^^^... should be a sticky.
Bluto, not sure if you want more info on how to see/measure it or what to do about it. But let's first address understanding groups, accuracy, precision and measurement.
Before going any further, read this... an excellent treatise on aggregate group evaluation (I know you understand about 3 shot groups, but he addresses POI centers as well):
The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups
Practically speaking, the accuracy of your "system" is truly determined by overlaying all targets shot under same conditions (load, bullet weight, DA, distance, etc) and *then* measuring your largest spread. Even though your crosshairs were *exactly* in the center of the same orange dot (Point of Aim - POA) when you pulled the trigger, there are factors that may cause your "system" to send those rounds into a group with a center that is NOT centered on the orange dot (Point of Impact - POI). As you look at your targets, you'll notice that those "centers" are not always in the same place.
OnTarget makes some software that will calculate the statistical "center" of your group, and give you very precise group size measurement, if you're having a hard time visualizing it.
On Target Precision Calculator
Once you know what to look for... wandering centers, you'll be more aware of the consistency of your "system" and take steps to correct whatever is influencing the shift in centers. Ultimately you want a "system" that will put the bullet into the target you are shooting at, no matter the distance... small groups that miss the target are interesting, but not relevant.
Assuming that was the information you were looking for, if you're still not clear... perhaps someone else can chime in and clarify or expand on the concept.
Once you know "what" the system is doing, then you can address "how" to fix it...
Bluto, not sure if you want more info on how to see/measure it or what to do about it. But let's first address understanding groups, accuracy, precision and measurement.
Before going any further, read this... an excellent treatise on aggregate group evaluation (I know you understand about 3 shot groups, but he addresses POI centers as well):
The Trouble With 3-Shot Groups
Practically speaking, the accuracy of your "system" is truly determined by overlaying all targets shot under same conditions (load, bullet weight, DA, distance, etc) and *then* measuring your largest spread. Even though your crosshairs were *exactly* in the center of the same orange dot (Point of Aim - POA) when you pulled the trigger, there are factors that may cause your "system" to send those rounds into a group with a center that is NOT centered on the orange dot (Point of Impact - POI). As you look at your targets, you'll notice that those "centers" are not always in the same place.
OnTarget makes some software that will calculate the statistical "center" of your group, and give you very precise group size measurement, if you're having a hard time visualizing it.
On Target Precision Calculator
Once you know what to look for... wandering centers, you'll be more aware of the consistency of your "system" and take steps to correct whatever is influencing the shift in centers. Ultimately you want a "system" that will put the bullet into the target you are shooting at, no matter the distance... small groups that miss the target are interesting, but not relevant.
Assuming that was the information you were looking for, if you're still not clear... perhaps someone else can chime in and clarify or expand on the concept.
Once you know "what" the system is doing, then you can address "how" to fix it...
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jrob300,
Not exactly what I was asking, but extremely valuable information that I honestly didn't even know to ask about. I'm going to get the Target Precision Calculator and go back through my old targets. One thing to mention on the POI shift, especially on the Colt, when I was shooting the 3 shot groups trying out various ammos, I did make adjustments to the windage sometimes in order to be shooting right at the center of the orange dot. I have all of them written down though, so I'm sure I can account for them to a degree. Another thing I would do is if I had a "flyer" on the first shot of the group, then I would shoot at that hole on the other shots. In hindsight, not the best practice, but at the time my mindset was only focused on the smallest group size, and in my head, that shot was a flyer caused by me and not something the rifle or ammo was doing.
After reading "The trouble with 3 shot groups" I feel kind of like I've been missing out on a lot of knowledge. Why don't more people on this website talk about 10 shot groups? Maybe they do, and I just ignore it because I didn't understand the importance.
What I was looking for regarding POI shift is more information about what the various shifting is telling me. For example, I shoot 3 10 shot groups, and the statistical center seems to be migrating towards 7:00. Does that mean I'm pushing the shots? Of if the statistical center is moving upward towards 2:00, does that mean I'm jerking the trigger? Of if it goes up towards 12:00, then down to 6:00, then over to 3:00, it means there is an issue with parrallax? Etc, etc.... Basically, once I have the POI data, how do I use it identify and fix the issue at hand? To do that, I first need to know what the data is telling me.
Bogeybrown, after reading that, I do have a parallax issue. I'm guilty of kind of breezing over the initial ocular set up because I have 20/20 or better vision, and it seems to "correct" any issue I'm seeing with the reticle. I'll be sure to go through all of that when setting up the new scope.
Not exactly what I was asking, but extremely valuable information that I honestly didn't even know to ask about. I'm going to get the Target Precision Calculator and go back through my old targets. One thing to mention on the POI shift, especially on the Colt, when I was shooting the 3 shot groups trying out various ammos, I did make adjustments to the windage sometimes in order to be shooting right at the center of the orange dot. I have all of them written down though, so I'm sure I can account for them to a degree. Another thing I would do is if I had a "flyer" on the first shot of the group, then I would shoot at that hole on the other shots. In hindsight, not the best practice, but at the time my mindset was only focused on the smallest group size, and in my head, that shot was a flyer caused by me and not something the rifle or ammo was doing.
After reading "The trouble with 3 shot groups" I feel kind of like I've been missing out on a lot of knowledge. Why don't more people on this website talk about 10 shot groups? Maybe they do, and I just ignore it because I didn't understand the importance.
What I was looking for regarding POI shift is more information about what the various shifting is telling me. For example, I shoot 3 10 shot groups, and the statistical center seems to be migrating towards 7:00. Does that mean I'm pushing the shots? Of if the statistical center is moving upward towards 2:00, does that mean I'm jerking the trigger? Of if it goes up towards 12:00, then down to 6:00, then over to 3:00, it means there is an issue with parrallax? Etc, etc.... Basically, once I have the POI data, how do I use it identify and fix the issue at hand? To do that, I first need to know what the data is telling me.
Bogeybrown, after reading that, I do have a parallax issue. I'm guilty of kind of breezing over the initial ocular set up because I have 20/20 or better vision, and it seems to "correct" any issue I'm seeing with the reticle. I'll be sure to go through all of that when setting up the new scope.
I forgot to ask if you're establishing your natural point of aim for each group you're firing? Also, how do you feel about your follow-through on the trigger?
Aside from bipod load, scope shadow or parallax, and trigger hand imput, those two issues are worth addressing. The natural point of aim can move your groups, and the trigger follow through will widen them out and/or cause fliers.
Aside from bipod load, scope shadow or parallax, and trigger hand imput, those two issues are worth addressing. The natural point of aim can move your groups, and the trigger follow through will widen them out and/or cause fliers.
Follow through is great. I've always held the trigger down extra long after the shot, even when I didn't know I was supposed to be doing that. Now that I know, I make sure I watch the shot through the scope an check out where it landed prior to letting my finger off the trigger.
I've been working on making sure I'm using my natural point of aim and not forcing/muscling anything. I'm using the info I got from Lowlight in this thread, http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...se-explain-driving-gas-gun-loading-bipod.html to set up prior to the shot. One thing worth mentioning is I am shooting from a bench and not prone. I didn't want to add that change to the mix yet.
I've been working on making sure I'm using my natural point of aim and not forcing/muscling anything. I'm using the info I got from Lowlight in this thread, http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...se-explain-driving-gas-gun-loading-bipod.html to set up prior to the shot. One thing worth mentioning is I am shooting from a bench and not prone. I didn't want to add that change to the mix yet.
Oh wow. I didn't realize you were shooting from bench. I'm not sure I could think of the last time I tried shooting from a bench so I hope nothing I've mentioned screwed you up. I was visualizing prone and some of the issues there.
On a side note, I have a new 5.56 gas gun waiting for me at home that I'll be trying to get worked out when I'm in the States for a few weeks this Fall. If you end up deciding that some of the various ammo you've bought just isn't worth hanging on to let me know and I'll buy all the odd quantities from you to run the same tests in mine.
On a side note, I have a new 5.56 gas gun waiting for me at home that I'll be trying to get worked out when I'm in the States for a few weeks this Fall. If you end up deciding that some of the various ammo you've bought just isn't worth hanging on to let me know and I'll buy all the odd quantities from you to run the same tests in mine.
Hah! Now you've asked the $64 million question. Not sure we have room here to go into all the variables, but ultimately it comes down to this. If the ammo is good and the sighting system is solid and set up properly for you and the rifle fits you, when you have moving POI, it is because you are doing something different from shot-to-shot or group-to-group. *WHAT* is something only you can identify. But I'll bet that with the amount that has been discussed in this thread that you're already much more sensitive to what you're doing behind the rifle. Study good form. One of the reasons we talk about bone-on-bone, and no muscle support is because bones are solid and don't move and any muscles you're introducing into the system, shoulder shrug, hand squeeze, neck pressure on the stock... will all vary from shot to shot.
I would ditch the bench and start work immediately on field practical positions. Bipod and bag are the most stable and the best place to start. Once you have your confidence there, and have proven your "system" you can graduate to other, more challenging, but perhaps more practical positions.
One thing you should begin to look for immediately though... what happens to the crosshairs when you pull the trigger? A perfectly executed shot will have the crosshairs either not move at all (straight back) or some movement (ideally up/down) with a return to perfectly centered (this depends to some extent what cartridge you're shooting). If you're getting any L-R movement there is something wrong with your body position.
I think you'll find that between setting your scope up properly and having your awareness on high alert now for some of these things... you're going to see pretty rapid improvement. If you can find somebody who really knows shooting and have them watch you, that is worth a ton, too. Or self video and review....
Best of luck on this and update us after your next few range sessions so we can see how it's coming...
John
Anyone have any suggestions on this? I"m looking for an A2 tube/buffer/spring combo that is comparable in quality to the LaRue set up. The LaRue reps can't seem to give me a recommendation and/or tell me what kind of buffer tube they use on the OBR.
Standard confg on the 7.62 OBR is the A2 stock, so I'm pretty surprised LaRue couldn't just sell you the receiver extension, etc. Every time I've called them they have been incredibly helpful. Last call was to order the B.E.A.S.T. and wanted a mount lower than the one that comes with it, the guy helping me pulled the mount that I wanted and put a
56mm scope in it on an OBR to verify I could get away with the lower mount and switched it out on my order with no fuss and no charge.
Sorry, unintended derail. (but you didn't forbid NICE comments about Larue).
56mm scope in it on an OBR to verify I could get away with the lower mount and switched it out on my order with no fuss and no charge.
Sorry, unintended derail. (but you didn't forbid NICE comments about Larue).
bluto,
not sure if you have covered this, but do or any of your friends reload? you might be able to eek a little more out of it if you can get a little closer to the lands. while there has been alot of good advice here, i really think what you are experiencing is the limits of system, what you are seing is on par with the majority rifles in that configuration are capable of.
a medium countour barrel and match trigger is a big part of the accuracy equation in AR's but its a button rifled medium contour barrel is only going to get you so far. thats not say that it cant be an incredible rifle as long you are realistically looking at what the platform is capable of. a consistant 2 MOA rifle should be able to bang man size steel out to 800 pretty easy
what i am doing right now, is ordering another Krieger barrel(26 inch .260) for my MWS i for longer range target shooting, and keeping the 16 inch cl for plinking or just having fun.
good on you for getting out and shooting,
not sure if you have covered this, but do or any of your friends reload? you might be able to eek a little more out of it if you can get a little closer to the lands. while there has been alot of good advice here, i really think what you are experiencing is the limits of system, what you are seing is on par with the majority rifles in that configuration are capable of.
a medium countour barrel and match trigger is a big part of the accuracy equation in AR's but its a button rifled medium contour barrel is only going to get you so far. thats not say that it cant be an incredible rifle as long you are realistically looking at what the platform is capable of. a consistant 2 MOA rifle should be able to bang man size steel out to 800 pretty easy
what i am doing right now, is ordering another Krieger barrel(26 inch .260) for my MWS i for longer range target shooting, and keeping the 16 inch cl for plinking or just having fun.
good on you for getting out and shooting,
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The debate over the accuracy, or lack thereof, from LaRue rifles will always be a hot button topic on snipershide. I'd really prefer to keep this thread focused on just the one rifle in question, and not a general discussion of all LaRue products and/or various barrel types. I apologize if I'm coming across as an a-hole, but I know how these conversations can get heated or sticky pretty fast.
Gunner 10, I am actually set up to reload, but haven't started yet. Any day now though! I'm hoping to squeeze a bit more accuracy out of the rifle by doing so. I'm not sure that I've quite reached the limitations of the rifle just yet. I know I'm not expert marksman by any means, and more consistency and better form on my part will get me a little further. With all things considered, I expect to be able to shoot in the .5 to .75 MOA range consistently, with some groups getting down in the .25'ish range on a good day. So I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. At least I hope you're wrong about it. Besides....you didn't think anyone could get their OBR to out-shoot the target from LaRue...and I was able to get six 5-shot groups to average less than the one that came with my rifle!! Hopefully i can get them even tighter!
Gunner 10, I am actually set up to reload, but haven't started yet. Any day now though! I'm hoping to squeeze a bit more accuracy out of the rifle by doing so. I'm not sure that I've quite reached the limitations of the rifle just yet. I know I'm not expert marksman by any means, and more consistency and better form on my part will get me a little further. With all things considered, I expect to be able to shoot in the .5 to .75 MOA range consistently, with some groups getting down in the .25'ish range on a good day. So I have to respectfully disagree with your assessment. At least I hope you're wrong about it. Besides....you didn't think anyone could get their OBR to out-shoot the target from LaRue...and I was able to get six 5-shot groups to average less than the one that came with my rifle!! Hopefully i can get them even tighter!
it is nice to see sombody giving their OBR a work out, its pretty cool that you were able to out shoot your test target on average. im sure with handloading you wil be able to improve on your groups. if i may make a observation/comment. i really think one needs to look objectivly about the platform. .9 form a semi is about is good as its going to get with with out single loading long rounds from a heavy barrel, consistantly as in 5 .9 groups, not half the groups being .5 and the other half being 1.2 with a .85 avg.
.25-50 is surgeon/gap/tac ops/ bench rest terrotory with a ton of brass prep involved placing rounds right on the lands. Semi's are awesom as long as one doesnt has reasonable expectations out of them
.25-50 is surgeon/gap/tac ops/ bench rest terrotory with a ton of brass prep involved placing rounds right on the lands. Semi's are awesom as long as one doesnt has reasonable expectations out of them
I'd like to get all 6 of the groups at sub MOA. Then I can say, "my rifle shoots MOA all day long"! I don't expect to be able to get 6 groups to fall in the .25 to .5 range though. That's not going to happen.
Also, I'm just bustin' your balls a little....all in good fun.
I went to the range on Saturday, but I had mounted a different scope on the Larue and also brought the Colt's replacement (the colt was sold), a 264 LBC. Also wanted to shoot the bolt guns as they've been on the sidelines for awhile, so nothing really to report on the Larue. Ok...that's a lie. I did the 6 group shoot-out at 300 yards and I"m not posting the results. I shot prone for the first time when I did that, so I need to watch Lowlight's DVD again and brush up on the fundamentals. It wasn't pretty.
However, I did end up putting the same scope that I used to have on the Colt, on to my .308 bolt gun. This is the one that I think most people have pointed out the parallax on. Here is one 5 shot group at 300 yards with the .308. Does this look indicative of parallax issues? I realize it's only one group, the first one shown from this particular rifle, and it's at 300 yards, so there are a ton of other variables that can come into play. But, it did remind me of many of the groups I shot with the Colt. That's .462 MOA. Wind was around 5 mph.
However, I did end up putting the same scope that I used to have on the Colt, on to my .308 bolt gun. This is the one that I think most people have pointed out the parallax on. Here is one 5 shot group at 300 yards with the .308. Does this look indicative of parallax issues? I realize it's only one group, the first one shown from this particular rifle, and it's at 300 yards, so there are a ton of other variables that can come into play. But, it did remind me of many of the groups I shot with the Colt. That's .462 MOA. Wind was around 5 mph.
Nice group.
New rifle. New cheek weld. New eye relief. Because you moved the scope, we may never know if parallax was the issue on the Larue.
1st rule of troubleshooting closed systems: "Change one variable at a time". Unless you are fully trained in Design of Experiments and have access to some awesome software.... then you can introduce multiple variables, but in a tightly controlled environment. You changed too many things for us to have useful data.
But... nice group.
John
The only thing that changed on the Larue was the scope and the mount. Still has the same stock, trigger, and everything else. I didn't want to change those things out yet so I wouldn't be changing too many things at once.
The group I posted was from a bolt rifle .308 that I've had for a few months. I routinely shoots sub MOA. The picture below is from a 6 group 100 yard target from the same .308, but using a different scope than the one I used Saturday. The one I used on Saturday is the same scope that I had on the Colt CRP-18. The Colt targets in this thread show quite a bit of the "POA dancing around the center". I noticed that, even though the .308 group from Saturday is decent, it also shows the POA dancing around the center.....much like the Colt. The picture below shows that the same rifle shoots groups that do not have a POA dancing around the center. I found it interesting that once I moved the scope from the Colt to the .308 I had the same results.
The group I posted was from a bolt rifle .308 that I've had for a few months. I routinely shoots sub MOA. The picture below is from a 6 group 100 yard target from the same .308, but using a different scope than the one I used Saturday. The one I used on Saturday is the same scope that I had on the Colt CRP-18. The Colt targets in this thread show quite a bit of the "POA dancing around the center". I noticed that, even though the .308 group from Saturday is decent, it also shows the POA dancing around the center.....much like the Colt. The picture below shows that the same rifle shoots groups that do not have a POA dancing around the center. I found it interesting that once I moved the scope from the Colt to the .308 I had the same results.
Here's a pic of the 300 yard groups. I should be posting all of my results and not cherry picking them if I'm here asking for information on how to improve. There are also pics of the rifle as it was set up when shooting those exact groups. That is a different Vortex Razor than was on there before and a different mount. Everything else is the same. I didn't change the trigger yet either (adding a SSA-E in future). You'll notice the bubble in the level was out of balance. I leveled the rifle after taking the pic and before shooting and tightened the Atlas back up so it remained level.
There are a couple of holes missing on the target on the top and bottom right groups. The top right group was the last one I shot and I was more dialed in at that point, but the last shot is about .5" off to the right of the edge of where the poster was stapled to the target. The bottom right group....who knows where they were. I'm calling it 6.00" group.
There are a couple of holes missing on the target on the top and bottom right groups. The top right group was the last one I shot and I was more dialed in at that point, but the last shot is about .5" off to the right of the edge of where the poster was stapled to the target. The bottom right group....who knows where they were. I'm calling it 6.00" group.
hmmm. i was going to ask how the wind was but looking at your pics, it seems that wind should of not been a factor. semi's can be frustrating, i really think that once you get set up for reloading your should try out single loading some 80 or 90 grain VLD/amax type bullets to see what you can eek out of it.
how do you have your 700 set up?
how do you have your 700 set up?
Wind was blowing left to right about 3 to 6. I couldn't see where I was hitting the target, so I didn't make the the necessary adjustments. Again, that was my first time to shoot from prone, ever. I have Lowlight's Day One instructional DVD, and I know he goes into detail about shooting prone in it. I didn't pay all that much attention to that part since I was shooting from a bench at the time. I'm going to watch it again to make sure I have the fundamentals down correctly. I also ordered a mat from Midway to shoot from, and it has a place at the front of it where you can put the feet of your bipod to make loading it easier. I was having trouble maintaining my position after each shot because the bipod was slipping and moving forward, so I would have to inch forward. I was also using inconsistent amounts of pressure when loading the bipod. I ordered a better rear bag as well. I should've tried this out from 100 yards first, but I was a little tired of just shooting 100 yards, so I moved over the 300 yard range.
I also had finally gotten my hands on some FGMM 175gr SMK's for the .308 that I wanted to try at 300. That is the only group I shot. It obviously likes them. It is set up as follows:
This is the description I got from the guy I bought it from on snipershide:
- Remington 700 action trued .308 bolt face
- Bolt has lugs lapped and has been fluted vortex fluted by PPR (AKA Boltfluter.)
- vortex bolt knob.
- 35MOA scope rail
- I sent the barreled action to chad Dixon and had a side bolt release done.
- Barrel: Krieger SS 26” in length 1-12 twist 5/8-24 threads with protector.
- Krieger contour # 17
I got the barreled action in a trade. I put it into a Manners T5 mini chassis and installed a Jewell trigger set at 1 lb. It shoots much better than I do, and I'm sure it'll be lights out once I work up a load for it.
I also had finally gotten my hands on some FGMM 175gr SMK's for the .308 that I wanted to try at 300. That is the only group I shot. It obviously likes them. It is set up as follows:
This is the description I got from the guy I bought it from on snipershide:
- Remington 700 action trued .308 bolt face
- Bolt has lugs lapped and has been fluted vortex fluted by PPR (AKA Boltfluter.)
- vortex bolt knob.
- 35MOA scope rail
- I sent the barreled action to chad Dixon and had a side bolt release done.
- Barrel: Krieger SS 26” in length 1-12 twist 5/8-24 threads with protector.
- Krieger contour # 17
I got the barreled action in a trade. I put it into a Manners T5 mini chassis and installed a Jewell trigger set at 1 lb. It shoots much better than I do, and I'm sure it'll be lights out once I work up a load for it.
there is alot of little to to shooting a gas gun well. you really have to earn every shot. while alot of work and dedication can get you there, it really reminds one of how nice to shoot a nice bolt gun. everything just come so much more naturaly when you get behind a bolt gun.
This thread makes me wonder what my OBR 5.56 will do. I never really tried for groups outside of sighting it in, but I did manage a few half way decent groups.
I shot all my FGMM 79, but I still have a ton of Hornady 75. I will have to go back and try with them looks like you had decent results with it.
I shot all my FGMM 79, but I still have a ton of Hornady 75. I will have to go back and try with them looks like you had decent results with it.
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Hell yeah. That was the first time I've even fired that rifle since before I started this thread. I actually stole the scope off the Rem 700 and put it on the LaRue. Then, last thing I do on Friday night around midnight, take the SWFA 5-20 that I had on the Colt (the one people were saying must've had parallax issues), throw that on the Rem 700 .308 right before I go to sleep, take it to the range on Saturday and pull it out in between groups with my gas guns, toss 3 rounds down range dialing the scope in, take her over to the 300 yard range and do the same which is fire off one 5 round group in between groups 3 and 4 in my 300 yard 6 group challenge, and presto! Sub .5 MOA 300 yard group! First time I used that ammo, first time I used that scope. Yes, it was very nice.
Actually, if I'm shooting at 100 yards, I shoot 10 shot groups when doing load development. I actually have a rifle for sale and one of the pics I included was of ten shot groups with the rifle. Usually there will always be one shot out, usually its my fault. But that's how you get better, I suppose. These days I mostly shoot KYL drills or dot drills.
Turns out I had ordered the Magpul PRS for the AR-10 so I returned it to exchange for the AR-15 version. Just got an email saying my order was being put together. I figured I'd take the opportunity to try one more time to get a buffer tube from them. I called LaRue to ask again if they could sell me an A2/fixed buffer tube, even though they don't sell them on their website. I explained that I have a LaRue OBR that I want to put it on, I ordered the Magpul PRS from LaRue, and I wanted to use a LaRue part to install the product I ordered from LaRue on my LaRue rifle. Also told them I bought a LaRue rifle because I think they're the best on the market, I feel that the buffer tube is one of the most important parts on the rifle, and I really wanted to have the same one they use as not to diminish the quality of the rifle. I talked to 3 different people. None of them would sell me the part, none of them could tell which manufacturer LaRue gets their A2 buffer tubes from, and none of them could/would even so much as recommend a place where I should buy one and/or a manufacturer to buy one from. They said, "Mark is very adamant about us not selling parts that aren't listed on the website...." and all 3 referenced the BCG's. I told them I understood why he wouldn't want his BCG's being sold, but we're talking about a simple part that probably costs them less than $20. I guess if that's my biggest complaint with them, then it's not really that bad. It does get under my skin a little though.
I changed the scope and the mount. Went with the Bushnell XRS 4.5-30x50 with a LaRue LT 101 Riser and American Rifle Co rings. Left everything else the same. Used FGMM 69's. Also have the better rear bag, but I did not shoot this target from prone. I need to learn that again, because I just couldn't get comfortable for a shot, so I resorted back to the bench. Here's some more improvement. It'll put me on the top 10 board. One less flier and I could go in the "I shoot MOA all day" category. I'll be chaning out the trigger for the SSA-E next.
Bluto,
I do not know if this has been discussed. I have a KAC rifle I bought used. When I first shot the rifle it would not group very well. I tried cleaning it with Hoppes, Birchwood Casey, Butch's and a few other copper removers. It still would not group very well. A friend had some Sweet's that I used to clean the rifle and presto the rifle shoots lights out now and for the last 500 or so rounds. It may not work for you but I would give it a try. I would suggest you follow the directions of the Sweet's Solvent however.
I do not know if this has been discussed. I have a KAC rifle I bought used. When I first shot the rifle it would not group very well. I tried cleaning it with Hoppes, Birchwood Casey, Butch's and a few other copper removers. It still would not group very well. A friend had some Sweet's that I used to clean the rifle and presto the rifle shoots lights out now and for the last 500 or so rounds. It may not work for you but I would give it a try. I would suggest you follow the directions of the Sweet's Solvent however.
Forgot to mention just to clarify I am talking about the Barrel.
this... i have plenty of guns the ammo in 1 shoots great, move it to the other gun and it blows... thats y u reload
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