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Advanced Marksmanship Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters

Sandman,

We're not even talking about the same things here; I'm not a benchrest shooter, never have been. I'm talking about shooting. The same shooting that used to be the standard (pre-1945 vintage) qualification course; 200 yards, standing offhand, 200 yards sitting rapid fire, 300 yards prone rapid fire, and 600 yards prone slow fire. Mag changes required on the rapids, and all done with the standard Service Rifles; M1s, M14s and M16s or their semi-auto configurations. No "tech" stuff involved in the vast majority of what we do.
 
I understand your intent of moving away/being able to shoot unaided. But I would ask, how many LRF's total are carried amongst a sniper team? Also, for all the equipment a sniper team carries...what's the amount of batteries you carry to keep equipment running?

Commercial LRF's that range out to 600yds-1000yds is getting cheaper all the time. A small backup LRF would be easy to carry. If you got batteries for comm gear, NVG's, weapon lights, and all the other toy's a sniper team can have....saying that using a LRF is bad because it runs on batteries is a weak argument coming from a military shooter.

I would assume then you regurlarly run the old Redfield aperture sights on the M24 since the M3alpha's have glass lenses that can break.

There's a difference between doing it smarter and doing it harder.

Within my four man team we carried exactly one Bushnell LRF, and it was only good for out to 600m. When we had time to set up an OP we would mil the old fashioned way and average out the difference because we would most likely be farther than 600m and it was simpler. We had one Kestrel as well, which we used more than the LRF (Afghan wind is ridiculous).

Making similarities between night vision devises which are REQUIRED to carry and use for night ops, and LRFs and wind meters which are NOT required (should not be) of a good sniper is silly. All those things are nice to have, but are just extra weight in your ruck, especially on top of all the spare batteries and water.

Smarter would be to not have to rely on and carry extra equipment.
 
Huh....?

WTF are you talking about? What situation?

Have you ever ran a Vector 21? The LRF's that some units carry make a typical "civilian" LRF look like tinker toy.

Explain to me how having the exact distance known to target makes a "Barrett or M200" useless.

1) If I was on one of them time situations. where speed mattered.

2)No I have'nt, I have never seen a Vector 21B

3) MY LRF would be Useless if I had to use a Barrett or the M200 because those Rifles will shoot 3 times the distance of a civilian LRF, you read what I wrote back to front,

john
 
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This post kind of went down hill/off topic.

I like "old style" shooting but it is silly not to take advantage of technology when we can. Yes commercial LRFs for the hunter lack a lot, but don't compare them with the stuff the military stuff.

I haven't use the new technology the military has, but I have compared the Terrapin to my Leopold 1200, different as night and day when it comes to ranging. I'm sure the military stuff out classes the Terrapin.

I retired in '92, we didn't have any of these new fangled gadgets, don't mean I wouldn't use them if I had them. Different situations require different equipment. Look at your Op Order plans, you figure you equipment based on the mission. Weight matters, sometimes, sometimes it doesn't.

Since I'm an old has been military wise, I'll relate this to hunting. Sure I take a LRF, but I may not always have it with me. My Leopold 1200 doesn't work that will on the prairie, (a terrapin would better I'm sure) but it still works a bit.

But one still needs to learn old style methods. Yesterday morning I was antelope hunting. Do to age I don't wonder too far from the truck, horse, atv. so most of the time weight isn't that big of a deal, but while waiting for my wife to get ready for our hunt, I took my rifle over the hill a short ways to see what's up. Luck would have it I spotted a goat and decided to shoot it.

Again all I had was the rifle, but it has a mil dot so I successfully ranged shot the critter. It doesn't take calculaters, slide rules, computers, etc. It just takes common since to use a Mil Dot.

We know Tgt in yards times 1000 / mils gives you range. I was hunting antelope, the average size from back to stomach is 14.5 inches or .403 of a yard. .403 X 1000 is 403. So 403 divided by mils gives you range.

So if antelope hunting post 400 (rounded) in your little brain, look through the scope and count the mils. Simple math that can be done in the head instantly. You can do that before any hunting trip, Deer are 18 inches (.5 X 1000 =500), Elk 25 inches (25/36= .694 X 1000 = 694 rounded to 700) etc etc. The rounding makes for quick math in your head and is close enough for all practical hunting situations.

You can do the same thing for any target you're going after. If doesn't have to be mil dots, if you know you redical size or front sight size in MOA you can do the same. Lets say you are using a M24 and your scope goes south so you have to put on your Redfield Olympic sights. Use the post insert for the front sight. An example lets say you .076. Your target is a man size target with the 19 inch shoulder width. 19 / .076 is 250, so if your sight is the same size as your target when you're looking through the scope, its 250 yard away.

Its really simple. Use Technology but it something happens, you loose your LRF or left the batteries home, your hunt isn't ruined. Just means you have to improvise. Learn both and THINK a bit. Its the difference between a successful hunt or a waste of time and money.

Calculators are all over the place, but one still need to learn to work a pencil and paper.
 
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1) If I was on one of them time situations. where speed mattered.

2)No I have'nt, I have never seen a Vector 21B

3) MY LRF would be Useless if I had to use a Barrett or the M200 because those Rifles will shoot 3 times the distance of a civilian LRF, you read what I wrote back to front,

john


hmmm... my bushnell will do 1800+
a civi tarpin will do 3k+
 
This is opening a huge can of worms because the term sniper is no longer easily placed into one solid group
You have police officers in urban settings who wont shoot past 200 yards
You have police officers in rural places who have potential for real long shots
You have military with urban settings
You have military with rural and recon settings where the potential for 1500-2000 yard shots is a possible

Every job is different and demands different skill set. If you are cop typically in urban setting field craft does not have to be great but military in urban will get RPG up but if they don't have very good hide and field craft
I went to sniper school for LE back in the early 1980s and learned enough to be dangerous. Then I became a comp shooter and started learning adjusting for conditions. Then in 1990s I learned some field craft. Now I shoot just comp and have done fairly well in comp. Am I now a better sniper than before? No freakin way. The old non broken half assed shooter Mike of 1990s would kill me, because field craft and physical fitness with some shooting ability will surpass great shooter who can not get to FFP without being seen.

The best way to describe this was back in the early 2000's I was teaching marksmanship for James Jarrett and made a few shoots, real long in some nasty assed New Mexico winds. Well it surprised me when James asked me "How the hell did you make that shot?" Knowing James had been a SF Sniper with more kills than I had bullets I said James if this was for real how would you have made the shot. His response was "Close to within no way I could miss distance or get wind to my back or face" He was dead serious and his field craft was so good he could do it in his sleep.

Right after that I tried teaching my cops field craft but most found it too much work. I ended up getting to go through the stalking phase of the 8541 school at 40 plus years of age. It kicked my but and I was ashamed when some other SWAT Sniper types who where there just did the shooting and would not try the stalking. I learned a lot but I am no 8541 for field craft.

So in short. Shooting is small part.

Lastly when I worked embedded in US Military and carried a weapon in Iraq I did not see any "Lazy" I saw guys with OP Tempos so high I worried they would just wear out. Its hard to train when your in a FFP in harms way everyday. Not much time for one way range time on a two way range. The military snipers have all my respect.
 
One of my ranger buddies shot himself in the thigh and it exited his knee. The distans was 6" and he made a perfect hit without even wetting his finger for a wind call or calculating the spin of the earth. I have yet to see a competitive shooter replicate his feat of marksmanship.
 
One of my ranger buddies shot himself in the thigh and it exited his knee. The distans was 6" and he made a perfect hit without even wetting his finger for a wind call or calculating the spin of the earth. I have yet to see a competitive shooter replicate his feat of marksmanship.

Is he the guy who posted it on YouTube because I saw a video of someone doing that 3 weeks ago,


john
 
Is he the guy who posted it on YouTube because I saw a video of someone doing that 3 weeks ago,


john


I doubt it, if someone posted a video of it they'd be dead. It was several years ago. He was reholstering during some transitions and it snagged on some gear and went off.
 
I doubt it, if someone posted a video of it they'd be dead. It was several years ago. He was reholstering during some transitions and it snagged on some gear and went off.

That sounds like the video I saw too. He later comes back and explains how it happened. Maybe just coincidence, but it sounds familiar.
 
That sounds like the video I saw too. He later comes back and explains how it happened. Maybe just coincidence, but it sounds familiar.

I cant imagine the shock the poor guy went through doing that, But the one I saw was a guy on a coarse/range and he tried to quick draw a Glock???? I think and it went off in the holster,

John
 
I posted this in another thread a year or so back (couldn't find it). It's an interesting read from a Marine sniper and shooting team member. Since the topic of the thread is "Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters," I thought this was especially relevant and worth reposting. Kind of a long read...but good.

A Sniper’s Confession: The Importance of Competitive Shooting to Sniping By Kent Gooch, CWO2, USMC (ret) Originally printed in Tactical Shooter magazine, April 2000 http://www.aspiringtech.net/nobull/confessions.html

Well before I became a sniper and sniper instructor – nearly 20 years ago -- there has been a rivalry, approaching an adversarial relationship, between the sniper community and High Power, NRA-type shooters in the military. I saw it when I was a Marine stationed at the USMC Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) in Quantico, Virginia in the 80’s and also at the National Guard Bureau MTU in Little Rock, Arkansas in the late 90’s. Often the rivalry was limited to good-humored ribbing; still a good portion of it was serious and said with malicious intent. Often, the banter turned into fisticuffs, with the resulting bad blood between the two communities. This is unfortunate, to say the least.

How many times have you heard these phrases uttered, "I don't care what those paper punchers do, this is sniping and it's an entirely different game!" Who needs to learn how to use a sling? That’s for those yellow glass shooters!" Or from team shooter "Hey sniper! When are you going to learn how to shoot?" and "I'm telling you it's easier to take a National Match Shooter and teach him infantry skills than it is to take a grunt and try to teach him how to shoot!" I have heard these and a lot more, and being familiar with both sides of the rivalry I have come to some conclusions. What I will do here is attempt to show, through my own experiences and historical examples, the importance of competitive shooting events to snipers and how the two shooting disciplines’ interrelate.
There used to be a sign in the classroom of the 3rd Marine Division Scout-Sniper School in Okinawa. It has been awhile, but I remember that it stated that a sniper was a hybrid of a poacher and a competitive shooter. At the time in 1980, the sign really didn't register; it was simply a phrase intended to motivate the students. I was a high expert M16 shooter and that, plus this sniper training I was about to undergo, was going to make me a steely-eyed killer. I graduated, kept training, shot the M16 annually, went on to graduate from the Quantico instructor course, and figured that I was one bad Marine who didn’t need any training in other rifle disciplines. I never really paid much attention to the USMC Competition in Arms program, which holds Division level competitions and culminates in the Marine Corps matches and results in the selection of that year’s "All Marine Corps" teams. I saw the funny looking leg medals and kinda wondered what those distinguished shooters badges were about.
Once I got stationed at the USMC MTU I cohabited with the Marine Corps shooting teams. I made a few friends on the teams and started getting curious about this "competitive shooting" thing. I started talking to the team shooters and some of the more senior ones even taught me some tricks. Unfortunately, during the eight years I was stationed at the MTU, I only shot one rifle match, the 1000-yard stage of the Virginia State Championships. I wanted to see what the deal was. It was a good experience, and it wetted my appetite for later down the road.
In 1989, I was promoted to Warrant Officer and made a Range Officer. USMC Range Officers supervise marksmanship training and are responsible for the training and management of small shooting teams throughout the Corps. Many of the top enlisted rifle and pistol shooters are put into this military occupational specialty. I was selected due to my training background and was expected to get up to speed on the competitive aspects of the USMC marksmanship program. So at my first duty station I was appointed to be team captain of the shooting team
at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo, CA. Mare Island is the original location of the West Coast Boot Camp and had a tradition of fine shooting teams back to the early 1900's. I was lucky to work with a Staff Sergeant who was an experienced competitive shooter and despite my best efforts to mess things up we put together a team, trained and went to shoot the 1st Marine Division matches in Camp Pendleton.
How did I – one bad sniper – do? You could say that in his first attempt at NRA style Service Rifle shooting this old sniper didn't do so well. In fact, I ended up about halfway down out of about 200 shooters. To understand why I did so poorly, you have to understand what I, a "tactical" shooter, thought about marksmanship and competition:
1. I thought I knew what precision marksmanship was about.
2. I thought I knew how to read wind.
3. I thought I knew what precision shooting under pressure was like.
I was wrong. On all three counts.
While I had a good idea of what was going on, I was only at about a sophomoric level, learned yet stupid. Most of the mistakes I made that first year were mental errors, not physical. I knew shooting positions, I knew wind formulas, and I knew how to press a trigger. The problem was in the application of these aspects, which had kept me at a mediocre level of competitive shooting. Let me explain.
Precision Marksmanship. When training snipers, many times instructors espouse the idea of precision being that as long as the students keep the bullet in the chest they are doing well. In competitive shooting, matches are won and lost in the X-ring. This elusive little sucker can ruin your day if you don't think center instead of a hit in the middle somewhere. What competitive shooting does is develop the mindset during training that if your weapons system is capable of holding .5 minute of angle (MOA), then you should be getting .5 MOA out of it when firing from the shoulder. I found as well that competitive shooting shows you the difference between a good position and a correct position. Not only that but it also shows you that through proper trigger control, position and mental management a shooter can regularly hit a man-sized target from the standing unsupported position at 200 yards and prone at the 600 yardline with iron sights and no support other than a correct position and a little leather strap.
Reading wind. As a sniper you learn how to read wind for your partner. You glue your eye into the scope and casually take a guess at the mirage, grass blowing, whatever. As the shot fires you watch the trace and impact and make required corrections. In competitive shooting you are your own wind caller. You must get the wind right or that little X-ring will elude you enough to put you right out of the competition. On rapid-fire strings you have to be fast, sure and accurate. You have to learn to watch flags, mirage, grass and any other indicators you can find. And when you make a mistake, it's your butt, your embarrassment, and your miss at 3 or 9 o'clock. The ultimate test of this, in my mind, is the 1000 yard match (relax you benchresters). It's in these matches where you are on the line with your peers playing a mental game. Here the X-ring is 10 inches and only the best will nail the sucker on a regular basis while reading their own wind.
Pressure. There are few stressors as evil as competition. When shooting a qualification course you may feel a little stress, when you are shooting for high shooter in a school you may feel even more. But show up to a firing line full of strangers, some of who look like they really know what they are doing. They have high speed looking guns and bright shiny reloads and their shooting jackets have patches from hell all over them. Each shot is spotted and scored and as your points accumulate the stress can start. Each firing line it gets worse and worse, unless you learn to handle it. That is when you will have to learn to deal with stress.
My experiences with High Power shooting impressed upon me the importance of NRA-style competition for a tactical shooter. That does not mean that I believe a High Power shooter in the tactical arena, when compared with the tactical shooter in the High Power arena, will outperform the tactical shooter. Quite the contrary. The proficient tactical shooter should be able to make that X-ring-accurate shot with monotonous regularity, but against live, moving targets whose comrades will shoot back upon successful interdiction. And this does not include the terribly strenuous infiltration and exfiltration necessary for a successful sniper engagement. In short, competitive shooting does not encompass the "poaching" skills referred to on the sign in Okinawa. What I mean is that the proficient sniper can, and should, learn from the High Power shooter, if he is to be a better sniper. This is important, for there is no second place in the sniper’s arena. Only death.
Since I left the USMC I began shooting in the Canadian Forces Small Arms Championships in Ottawa, Canada. These matches are open to civilians through the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association (www.dcra.ca) which is the Canadian equivalent of the NRA. CFSAC is an excellent example of how bulls-eye competition can be crossbred with combat style skills. Competitors in service rifle/pistol, sniper rifle and light machinegun categories are required to apply precision marksmanship skills in combat oriented courses of fire at extended ranges while under conditions of physical and mental stress. My favorite is the 300m "Agony Snaps". In this match you are assigned a sector of fire in which a "Hun head" sniper target is presented randomly for engagement. The hard part of this is that you don’t know when or where the target will appear only that you will have ten, 3-second exposures in around 10 minutes, plus you have about a 4 inch 5 ring you are hunting. Just when you close your eyes to relax, sure as hell, there it is. The US National Guard runs a similar competition (American Forces Skill at Arms Meeting) in Little Rock, Arkansas annually, however it is not open to civilians.
CFSAC has given me the opportunity to compete against international level shooters and has allowed me to see other countries weapons systems and operational techniques. The firing positions used by Canadian Forces service rifle shooters are a good example of things that can be learned by attending these competitions. These positions, which violate just about every rule in the NRA High Power manual, are very interesting and are worth an article by themselves.
Another type of international competition worth mentioning are the Super Sniper Shootouts put on by Autauqa Arms. These matches draw competitors from all over the world and are a sure way of testing yourself against the best the world has to offer.
Though my own experiences impressed upon me the importance of competitive shooting to sniping, a review of the history of military marksmanship would have led me to the same conclusion. Let’s look at the military side of the question, which, if we are honest, keeps a
good portion of the US competitive rifle-shooting program going. I'll focus on the USMC as it is the most active of the services, and I know it well.
The USMC did not have a competitive program prior to 1900. In a letter he wrote to he NRA in 1943, Lt. Gen. Thomas Holcomb, Commandant of the Marine Corps during W.W.II, and a Distinguished Rifle shooter, said the following:
I was introduced to the N.R.A. in 1901. It was a rude introduction because our team was soundly trounced, finishing sixth in both the Hilton Trophy Match and Interstate Team Match- events, which the following year, were combined into the National Rifle Team Match. Naturally, we did not relish such a poor showing so we set out to learn how to shoot. By 1910 the Inspector of Small Arms Practice, U.S.M.C., reported proudly that "over one-third of the men in the Marine Corps are now qualified as marksmen, sharpshooters or expert riflemen!" How many of the present generation of officers realize that in those days the Army, Navy and Marine Corps were actually learning how to shoot from the civilians and civilian-soldiers who formed the backbone of the National Rifle Association? In 1911 the Marines won their first National Rifle Team Match, and by 1917 we had progressed so far along the marksmanship trail that every Marine who sailed overseas was a trained marksman.
General Holcomb and his men were not the only Marines lacking in sufficient rifle technique at the turn of the century. In the Sept 1971 MARINE CORPS GAZETTE, USMC shooting legend LtCol. W.W. McMillan wrote, "In 1899, Commandant Heywood was appalled to learn that less than a hundred Marines, officers and men, could not meet qualification requirements with the then current Krag Jorgenson rifle. By direction of Major C.H. Lauchheimer, the Corps proceeded to take shooting seriously, both for combat purposes and competition. Marksmanship became a highly prized skill and valued adjunct to leadership."
Prior to World War I, Marines like Calvin A. Lloyd, D.C. McDougal and then-2ndLt Thomas Holcomb advanced the respectability of match shooting, while pioneering instructional techniques and training methods for a far flung expeditionary Corps. In 1906 Marines began getting the M1903 Springfield rifle. Those who could shoot expert with it were rewarded with marksmanship qualification pay of $3.00 per month.
The focus on rifle competition within the Corps reaped dividends in the coming years in Mexico, Cuba, Haiti and in the wheatfields of France. One of the better descriptions of the effects of improved marksmanship through competition is by CPT John Thomason, Jr. in his W.W.I USMC classic "FIX BAYONETS." "The Bosche wanted Hill 142; he came and the rifles broke him and he came again. All his artillery was in action and his machineguns scoured the place, but he could not make headway against the rifles. Guns he could understand; he knew all about bombs and auto-rifles and machine-guns and trench mortars, but aimed sustained rifle fire that comes from nowhere in particular and picks men off- it brought the war home to the individual and demoralized him". And "Already around Hautevesnes there had been a brush with advancing Germans, and the Germans were given a new experience: rifle fire that begins to kill at 800 yards; they found it very interesting!"
One need not take my word for it, or even the historical experiences of the USMC, to appreciate the importance of marksmanship competition to sniping, one need only looked at the life and experiences of Gunny Hathcock, himself a top-ranked competitive shooter and a very successful sniper. Through competition -- whether High Power, under the auspices of the
NRA, or the Super Sniper Shootout – you can hone your skills and become the shooter that the bad guys have to worry about.
 
Yep, you can make one heck of a stew by blending the two, as A Roo shooter first then a hunter and then being trained by a VN Vet and going on to comp shooting I think I have a good mix going but I never take it for granted but I do ok, I prefer a right handed gun but I shoot left handed but I taught my self to be just as good with either hand and half way trough One Target I will change hands no matter if Im in a comp or not and my whole mood or mind set changes when I get on the firing line and I feel very peaceful dispite whats going on around me. ive even hummed a tune or too to myself while shooting, But its the only thing that I do where I get lost in my head and nothing else matters,

John
 
I agree MilDot.

I started this pointing dealing with just the marksmanship aspect of sniper/competitor, but that didn't last long.

Sure snipers have other jobs, but then again so do competitors. Some are doctors, lawyers, shop keepers, etc.etc. and some or soldiers and cops, but they still shoot, and out shoot snipers who don't compete (on the average).

I agree that blinding the two is the best case scenario.

I don't know about Iraq/Afghan, but infantry in Vietnam was all about field craft. More so if you consider the recon platoons. LRRPs etc. You teach them to shoot, get them in competition and you'll have something that's hard to beat.
 
I agree MilDot.

I started this pointing dealing with just the marksmanship aspect of sniper/competitor, but that didn't last long.

Sure snipers have other jobs, but then again so do competitors. Some are doctors, lawyers, shop keepers, etc.etc. and some or soldiers and cops, but they still shoot, and out shoot snipers who don't compete (on the average).

I agree that blinding the two is the best case scenario.

I don't know about Iraq/Afghan, but infantry in Vietnam was all about field craft. More so if you consider the recon platoons. LRRPs etc. You teach them to shoot, get them in competition and you'll have something that's hard to beat.

The Guy who taught me could walk on gravel in work boots and not make a sound yet I was walking on cut grass wearing Sneakers trying to be quiet and I made more noise than he did, and its those field craft skills that Snipers have is what makes them incredible, To this day I still dont know how he did it.

Those Recon Guys Are a breed of their own because they work with their surroundings and become part of it, I have so much Respect for the Vets past and pressent and Nam and Korean Vets are Owed so much and not forgetting it is them who gave us what we have today knowledge wise.

John
 
That would depend on the size of the target.


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and thats the problem... real world targets you will never know the size down to the inch... and say you "could"...static targets "plates" you cant be 100% sure it is a perfect 90^ to you, and you still cant resolve .02 of a mil, or even .05

that will easily put you 100y+ off .. milling is good to know, knowing its limitations is better...
 
I'd rather spend $700-$2000+ on ammo or upgraded parts than on a LRF, especially when I can mil it or or do some RE.

Fact from the SOTIC school house I have in my notes:A laser range finder is necessary to properly dope range within the danger space of a human torso (12” wide by 20” high) beyond 600m. A .1 mil error subtends to a miss outside danger space of target.

While we all may have all been able to mil something beyond 600m at some point and gotten lucky, try mil'ing and shooting beyond 800- 1000+ meters and see how your 1st round hit average works out compared to someone using a LRF, especially when the target is not a 12" x 20" man sized E type. If you don't believe this to be true, set up a UKD course of targets from 600m and out and have one person mil and one use a LRF and compare how accurate their recorded distances are to the true distances between the two.

Work smart, not hard; why run when you can walk;why walk when you can ride;why stand when you can sit;why sit when you can laydown......The smart man stacks the odds in his favor when he can.

For the record, I don't own a LRF but it is on my list of toys to buy at some point.
 
how accurate do you think milling is past 1k?

Depends on why I would be shooting past 1k. Considering the M24 and M110 are rated for 800m, 1000m shooter dependent, I wouldn't confidently try to make that shot unless someone needed help that far away.

Fact from the SOTIC school house I have in my notes:A laser range finder is necessary to properly dope range within the danger space of a human torso (12” wide by 20” high) beyond 600m. A .1 mil error subtends to a miss outside danger space of target.

While we all may have all been able to mil something beyond 600m at some point and gotten lucky, try mil'ing and shooting beyond 800- 1000+ meters and see how your 1st round hit average works out compared to someone using a LRF, especially when the target is not a 12" x 20" man sized E type. If you don't believe this to be true, set up a UKD course of targets from 600m and out and have one person mil and one use a LRF and compare how accurate their recorded distances are to the true distances between the two.

Work smart, not hard; why run when you can walk;why walk when you can ride;why stand when you can sit;why sit when you can laydown......The smart man stacks the odds in his favor when he can.

For the record, I don't own a LRF but it is on my list of toys to buy at some point.

Another reason why both the shooter and spotter should mil the target and average the two. I get what you are saying, and of course a LRF is going to be more accurate than milling, but you should know and practice more doing it manually than with a LRF.

We trained to mil on 29.5"x40" silhouettes with both mil dots and TMRs. For patrols or quick engagements (i.e. any time other than sitting in an OP) we relied on hold-offs using the 12" drill we learned at school house. Very quick and effective when there was no time for detailed milling or LRF.
 
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Fact from the SOTIC school house I have in my notes:A laser range finder is necessary to properly dope range within the danger space of a human torso (12” wide by 20” high) beyond 600m. A .1 mil error subtends to a miss outside danger space of target.

While we all may have all been able to mil something beyond 600m at some point and gotten lucky, try mil'ing and shooting beyond 800- 1000+ meters and see how your 1st round hit average works out compared to someone using a LRF, especially when the target is not a 12" x 20" man sized E type. If you don't believe this to be true, set up a UKD course of targets from 600m and out and have one person mil and one use a LRF and compare how accurate their recorded distances are to the true distances between the two.

Work smart, not hard; why run when you can walk;why walk when you can ride;why stand when you can sit;why sit when you can laydown......The smart man stacks the odds in his favor when he can.

For the record, I don't own a LRF but it is on my list of toys to buy at some point.

See now you your talking about where the real real craft comes into play, and its those unknown targets that catch you out, since I started using mil dot scopes I always notice uncommon targets and note their size in my head,
But the Sniper has many ways of Ranging so he can cross check using his other methods where the Average shooter will swag it,

John
 
See now you your talking about where the real real craft comes into play, and its those unknown targets that catch you out, since I started using mil dot scopes I always notice uncommon targets and note their size in my head,
But the Sniper has many ways of Ranging so he can cross check using his other methods where the Average shooter will swag it,

John

We had a list of random common things written down and measured so we could mil properly, like the bumper width of the popular cars or the jingle trucks in the AO, even military vehicles, etc. That way we could accurately mil those TOI. Other soldiers thought we were weird for carrying around a tape measure and randomly taking notes, but it paid off in the long run.
 
We had a list of random common things written down and measured so we could mil properly, like the bumper width of the popular cars or the jingle trucks in the AO, even military vehicles, etc. That way we could accurately mil those TOI. Other soldiers thought we were weird for carrying around a tape measure and randomly taking notes, but it paid off in the long run.

Yeah, thats why nothing holds you back because you are always thinking ahead and alot would'nt even bother like you said, just something so simple just might save a mans life, So folks treat ya like a fool when you do such things, Even the Mrs has given me some strange looks at time But she soon changed her mind when a useless piece of knowledge come in to play and makes things right with the world,

Recon teams and Snipers and LRRP's are good at making mentle notes along with writing stuff down But others just fill their minds with facts and figures and not leaving much room for all the important stuff,

John
 
Some still do, and many of us did at one time. Not a choice of one or the other, but how one compliments the other.

Yeah thats right Back in the Day I had to hump all my gear 40 miles in one day and the night, 14hrs 35 mins later I was ****** I got so P'off I ran the last mile, and I slept in a Barn, Did'nt Hay felt SOOO GOOOD

That was My first Lesson in BS, GO It'LL make a Man of YA, Yeah Right ??? That Dog Don't Hunt,

Still would'nt change it for the world.

John
 
Shooting Skills: Sniper vs Competition Shooters

and thats the problem... real world targets you will never know the size down to the inch... and say you "could"...static targets "plates" you cant be 100% sure it is a perfect 90^ to you, and you still cant resolve .02 of a mil, or even .05

that will easily put you 100y+ off .. milling is good to know, knowing its limitations is better...
Speaking of which, the real problem with 'real world' targets is that it's almost impossible to Mil a moving target, or to accurately flash-Mil a target that is moving unpredictably.

And yes, the problem with static targets is that one cannot immediately tell whether or not they are at an angle.
 
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We had a list of random common things written down and measured so we could mil properly, like the bumper width of the popular cars or the jingle trucks in the AO, even military vehicles, etc. That way we could accurately mil those TOI. Other soldiers thought we were weird for carrying around a tape measure and randomly taking notes, but it paid off in the long run.


I consider that one of the basic skills and good info to have on hand, if you've been any where you've probably used that kind of info at one time or another. But it only works when you have those references available in your environment. So using a real world situation, dude standing out in the middle of BFE at a distance greater than 600m, lets say 1000m with nothing to reference off of, no door frames, no vehicles, etc, just a dude. Well we know what part of the world we are in and what the "average" height of a man from that part of the world is so we mil him, your spotter mils him, do the math and have a distance answer. The issue is that dude might not be average height, maybe he is shorter/taller than the average booger snatcher in that part of the world. At that distance the variance that you are off combined with the caliber weapon your using may be enough for a miss even when you consider the danger space.

For a 308 using M118LR on a 12"x20" human target/20" kill zone you have a 20m dangerspace/kill zone for a 1000m shot. If your target is shorter/taller and your mil number is more than .1 off from actual you have missed the target.

For Mk13 300 Mag you have a 34m danger space.

For 338 you have 32-38 m danger space depending on the MV of the weapon


So having known environmental reference objects works great as a poor mans range finder in some circumstances, it isn't the end all be all solution. It is a tool, just like a LRF is a tool. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything in your world looks like a nail. A LRF is a tool and like any tool there are times when you are better off using the better tool for the job if you have it available to you. Also keep in mind this isn't factoring in wind errors or realistic situations where you have a limited amount of time to precisely mil and do math/look at cheat sheets because the tgt is moving or you are receiving fire, etc. To think you are going to mil consistently from 700 out past 1000m and that your GTG because you have your obj size ref cheat sheet and you "don't need no stinking LRF" is going to result in a lot more misses than hits.
 
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To think you are going to mil consistently from 700 out past 1000m and that your GTG because you have your obj size ref cheat sheet and you "don't need no stinking LRF" is going to result in a lot more misses than hits.

I get what you are saying, and a LRF IS more accurate than any manual method, but in reality a sniper isn't going to make a 1000m shot to begin with. So in the realm of realistic sniper shots, 800m is the max for most. It sure is for me. 1000m is tough for anyone, even using a BC.

My point was that you shouldn't have to rely on a LRF to shoot. It's nice, but not required. I'm not saying don't ever use one. I'm saying EVERYONE should be able to do it manually, and should practice it while at the range.
 
I get what you are saying, and a LRF IS more accurate than any manual method, but in reality a sniper isn't going to make a 1000m shot to begin with. So in the realm of realistic sniper shots, 800m is the max for most. It sure is for me. 1000m is tough for anyone, even using a BC.

My point was that you shouldn't have to rely on a LRF to shoot. It's nice, but not required. I'm not saying don't ever use one. I'm saying EVERYONE should be able to do it manually, and should practice it while at the range.

Not only that But using a Laser can get you Pinged or worse, They are good for use in low risk areas but bad news at other times,

John
 
This debate reminds me of a problem I had with the Marine Corps. We called ourselves rifleman but if you weren't an 03' you didn't see the range but once every year or every two years if you shot expert. 5 day a year or less practicing does not a rifleman make. For me I wanted to practice on my own but I was a single guy in the Barracks living in so-cal. I had no idea they had matches every weekend at edson range. I had no idea I could buy AR and keep it in the armory. hell I went to the range exactly two times once in recruit training and once in the fleet. The other times I was deployed and exempt because I shot expert. As far I was concerned I should have been issue at least 2K rounds a year outside of qualification for practice. Of course that was before I knew about places like this forum. I really wish I had known there was a group of people online I could go to for advice. Everyone in my unit thought of the range has one of those things you Have to do and doing well meant more points for promotion. Really doesn't sound like an organization of riflemen to me.
 
Just read this entire thread. Some very good posts byt lowlight and a few others who hit the nail right on the head.
A few months ago I visited a new long range that opened up in my state and was making some nice shots on targets out at 600, 700, and 800. I only shot prone that day varying from bipod to bag support. There was a few other shooters there at that time and a couple were competition shooters. some how during small talk they found out that I am a former military sniper (USMC/8541 '96-'04) so one of them asked me if it was true and when I told him it was they were all like "really?" evidently they we not too impressed with my shooting and all though I was making what would be considered a kill shot on silhouette tagets, these fellas were really threading the needle. The inner jarhead in me wanted to break their jaws but I simply explained to them that there was a big difference between what I did and their competition shooting. After I explained that I highly doubted they've ever had to don a ghillie and face crawl over a few hundred yards while a bunch of seasoned vets glassed the area witout being seen, or the fact that allthough shooting a paper "X" at long range is very impressive, it's a lot different when you look through your glass at a human being and have to pull the trigger. It's a whole different animal. Not to mention the getting in and out, here and there with out being seen. I think they finaly realized it's not all glamerous like Hollywood portrays it to be. They ended up being some really nice guys and we exchanged a few things....I picked up a few tricks about mechanics.

There's a lot of people like that out there though that really don't have any idea about one or the other.
 
Just read this entire thread. Some very good posts byt lowlight and a few others who hit the nail right on the head.
A few months ago I visited a new long range that opened up in my state and was making some nice shots on targets out at 600, 700, and 800. I only shot prone that day varying from bipod to bag support. There was a few other shooters there at that time and a couple were competition shooters. some how during small talk they found out that I am a former military sniper (USMC/8541 '96-'04) so one of them asked me if it was true and when I told him it was they were all like "really?" evidently they we not too impressed with my shooting and all though I was making what would be considered a kill shot on silhouette tagets, these fellas were really threading the needle. The inner jarhead in me wanted to break their jaws but I simply explained to them that there was a big difference between what I did and their competition shooting. After I explained that I highly doubted they've ever had to don a ghillie and face crawl over a few hundred yards while a bunch of seasoned vets glassed the area witout being seen, or the fact that allthough shooting a paper "X" at long range is very impressive, it's a lot different when you look through your glass at a human being and have to pull the trigger. It's a whole different animal. Not to mention the getting in and out, here and there with out being seen. I think they finaly realized it's not all glamerous like Hollywood portrays it to be. They ended up being some really nice guys and we exchanged a few things....I picked up a few tricks about mechanics.

There's a lot of people like that out there though that really don't have any idea about one or the other.

Thank you for joining this forum, posting and posting this awesome reply D6. You really struck at the heart of the question in my mind. The study by the military was simply a study of long range rifle competition results and not of real world dynamics. I completely agree with you. I would just love to see some of the people at my competition tomorrow crawl (much less hike) a mile undetected. We can all dream we are snipers, but until we actually are being hunted and shot at, we never will be. Thanks again for this insight.
 
To do this test they took snipers and put them in a competition shooter's environment and shot against competition shooters. But they could never flip it around and make a test that goes the other way. Enough said.
 
Smoke the report deals with the MARKSMANSHIP aspect of sniping. If you can't shoot, then might as well be in a recon platoon.
 
Smoke the report deals with the MARKSMANSHIP aspect of sniping. If you can't shoot, then might as well be in a recon platoon.

Thats right mate, I dont have an issue with Accuracy, and if I had to do the things these Guys are asked then I'm not to comfortable with that, where It goes Tits up with me is I think too much, Could I do it Yes! ,,,,But it would eat me up???

John
 
My comments aren't replying to anyone in particular or meant to insult anybody. Just what I've observed.

I know a few across the course shooters that are very good shots which of course has to do their many years of practice and matches in that discipline.

Only problem is they are lost when it comes to shooting a field course. They are used to getting on paper at the normal fixed distances they shoot and correcting once they see the spotter disc. They don't know about DA, inclination angle, if their scopes track, what FPS their rounds are going, what the actual BC of their bullet is, how to use a ballistic program, that the reticle values change on their SFP scopes and the list goes on and on.

One of those guys, the better shooter, came out to our local field course match and only hit a few steels. He never came back.

So as has been mentioned, the enemy better stay hid if he comes up against a top level competition shooter who also happens to be a military Sniper...Skills/Knowledge/Craft
 
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Smoke the report deals with the MARKSMANSHIP aspect of sniping. If you can't shoot, then might as well be in a recon platoon.

True, but a snipers margin of error is a lot greater than a bench/competition shooter. A competition shooter has to hit 3" target, a sniper typicaly has to hit 10-12" target. As a sniper, I may not be able to hit an apple at a half mile, but then again I don't need to. I only need to land a kill shot on a man sized target. :)
 
Lots of excuses, but I expected as much.

How do you figure?

You stated in your origional post that you have a bit of experience with both (competition & sniping) may I ask to what extent? I am in no way trying to call you out on anything, just trying to get an understanding of where you're coming from.

I myself have zero experience as a competition shooter. Never in my 35 years have I fired in any type of organized match. I do however have extensive experience as a military sniper. In my opinion you are trying to compare apples to oranges. Comparing a competiton shooter and a sniper.... but only on shooting abilities is like taking two boxers and seeing which one hits harder. All though one may hit harder than the other, that weighs very little on their over all abilities for what they need to do.

I'm also curious as to what type of sniper schools you have run?

You made a comment in you OP about many people quitting after they attend a school. That depends on the situation. If you're talking about civilians attending some type of school then yes, most of them probably won't keep up on things and they more than likely just attended for the sake of fun. As far as military and law enforcement....well, i'm not sure how LEO's handle that but from my experience in the Corps after you complete SSBC you either attach to a sniper platton, a STA platoon, or back with your home unit. If you end up back with your home unit then you won't have time to practice for shit usually. If you get sent to the other two then a majority of you time is spent running obersvation and recon drills as well as land nav and very little shooting. You don't have 4 hours every day to practice Shooting.

Again, I'm in no way trying to call you out, I just feel under these circumstances it is entirely two different thing.
 
Jesus, you guys keep beating a fucking dead horse. We all know that pactice is good, more practice is better. Shooting comps would benefit us mil guys. That's why most of us shoot comps, or shoot on our own time and dime. On a flat square range, with no physical stimulis, the comp shooter will usually out shoot the mil guy. Put that same comp shooter in the mountains of Astan and most will get evaced out 1k into the movement to the OBJ, never getting a chance to take that shot. Will the mil guys ever get to shoot as much as comp guys, no. Do we wish we could, yes. Do we realize that we would be better if we did, yes.

Bunch of kids on the playground trying to measure dicks, all over who is the "better shooter."

It must be getting cold out.