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First Time Shooting Precision Semi-Auto Rifle Results

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I finally purchased, mounted and zero a scope (Leupold Mark4 3.5-10x40 M3 FFP) on my POF P308 14.5" last week. I got some time today to try and see if I could group some shots. To be clear, this is the first time I have ever done any precision shooting, bolt or semi-auto. I have only shot AK's, pistols and SIG 556R with Browe 4x32 BCO optic.

I guess shooting a gas gun isn't the best gun to learn precision shooting with. I didnt have the best results my first time out. I was shooting with a Caldwell Tack Driver Shooting bag rest at 100 yards. I shot one group with SA ball then shot the rest with Hornady #8097 308 168gr BTHP MATCH and Hornady 168gr TAP AMAX.

I just received today some FGMM 168gr and 175gr along with some XM118LR 175gr BTHP Match. Will test them out this weekend sometime and see if I do any better. I expected to get better groups then I did but I guess I had high expectations. Not sure if its totally me, the bag and should get a Atlas bipod or use FGMM or a combination of everything. I concentrated on my breathing and trigger control.

Here are my targets.



 
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Continue concentrating on breathing and trigger control and check to ensure your scope is securely attached. I prefer LaRue scope mounts for my AR's because they hold zero well, even when I share the scope between 2 AR's. At 100 yards, you should be able to keep the groups tighter and on the orange targets. Try to be consistant with your ammunition too, don't switch between different weights or brands or bullet types because your zero will not be consistant if you don't use the same bullet.
 
Thanks. Im going to use the FGMM 168g and see how it does without switching back and forth. The rings and scope are securely attached. I installed the NF rings and scope with a Wheeler Firearms Accurizing Torque Wrench to required inch lbs. I checked again and they are securely attached.
 
Consistency in every respect of your shooting, including but not limited to trigger manipulation/control, follow-through, position on the rifle/optic, etc. are all KEY with precision rifle shooting and that is PARTICULARLY true with a semi-auto, including your P-308, as any lapse in the above can cause you accuracy woes. Based on a LOT of stringing vertically with your groups, as well as the overall size of your groups, combined with your relative lack of experience on the platform thus far, I'd venture to say that the rifle is driving you at this point rather than you driving the rifle.

Given your shooting background and the firearms you have generally had experience with to date (not including your POF), you really owe it to yourself to get some quality training. In person, hands-on training is by far the best way to go, but as not everyone can afford the cost or the time involved in a multi-day, precision rifle course, then I'd suggest that you have a go at the Online Training offered here as there is a TON of quality material that you will find useful in furthering your abilities. Fundamentals, fundamentals, FUNDAMENTALS!! ;)

As for the above suggestion that you standardize on a load/ammo and not switch between ammos, etc., etc....don't sweat that right now. Running quality ammo, regardless of where it zeros on target, should still be capable of shooting well out of that rifle, including holding respectable groups. The FGMM and Hornady Match fodder out of that rifle and its brethren are proven performers in the P-308 rifles. My P-308 with FGMM of all varieties is easily sub-MOA capable when I'm not asleep at the trigger and the Hornady TAP/Match stuff is also very consistent/accurate.

Get some good quality training, focus on your fundamentals until they are like second nature, and keep shooting. You'll get there!!
 
Padon nice weapon. To add to the good advise Guilty had. Just a couple of things , with semi auto's you really need to try alot of different rounds sometimes before you find the one that works best. Also looking at your groups I would say work on your follow through, after the shot. Consistant trigger squeeze straight back, head down try to see the bullets wake and impact ( I doubt you will be able to with this short barreled weapon at 100m but maybe at 200m) just trying to relay that you need to stay on the gun after it goes off IMO the longer pulse of a semi makes this very important. Keep working at it and make it your own, it will be worth the effort.
 
Thank you for the feedback and suggestions everyone. I have taken many SI training classes this year but none of them were precision rifle class. Combat Rifle Marksmanship and Advanced Rifle Gunfighting were 2 of the classes I took which taught trigger control, trigger reset, breathing and a good cheek weld. I took those classes with my SIG 556R/Browe BCO setup and did very well but none were focused on precision shooting for small groups.

There are some Black Hat Precision rifle classes I can take 2 hours from my house on a range that goes to 1050 yards. I will look into taking some with them.
 
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PADOM, first off nice shooting. People don't realize just how different shooting a gas gun is, they try to shoot it like a bolt gun and find out very quickly that it is not as forgiving. From my experience three basic fundamentals really helped me. 1) BREATHING, this is so important. For me I take a few breaths then when I am ready I let out my air then I SQUEEZE the TRIGGER. 2) SIGHTS, learning your sights and or scope after you have it ZEROED in and make sure it is SECURED to your mount. I use BLUE LOCTITE to secure all my screws. 3) TRIGGER CONTROL, this might just be the most important aspect of shooting a gas gun. Make sure that you slowly squeeze the trigger and hold it until it resets then let it go forward. This is all my opinion but it works well for me. One last thing, in order to gauge your rifles true accuracy make sure you use MATCH GRADE AMMUNITION.
 
If you can get someone to shoot the gun who has a fair amount of experience with precision rifles, do it. It's worth ruling out the rifle as the source of error, that way you can focus on fixing your fundamentals instead of fixing the rifle. Also, never underestimate the value of dry fire. I've been helping a friend of mine get into the precision rifle game, and his groups went from inconsistent patterns to MOA sized groups in just a few range trips, largely thanks to him dry firing at home. On top of that, I'll emphasize what's already been said: focus on your fundamentals. Gas guns are very picky about trigger control and follow through. Much more so than bolt guns.
 
I want to wade in on the shallow end of the pool with the non swimmers.
Others have advised you on fundamentals and these are always worth keeping in mind and practicing.
What I do is to dry fire at the range. I set myself up and focus on a target 100 yards out. Then when dry firing I make sure that the cross hairs don't move. If they are moving when I pull the trigger then something is wrong and I am going to have larger than acceptable groups.
I refocus on my fundamentals like relaxing, breathing, trigger squeeze until I get it right.
Then I go ahead and shoot. Some days you can already figure out its going to be a long day.
Secondly my note on gas rifles -
Gas rifles need to settle in and like themselves before they will give it up. I don't worry about a gas rifle until it has 200 rounds down the pipe. Second off I roll my own so I can soon find out what the rifle likes.
If I am going to shoot factory I don't buy more than a box or any certain kind until I know the rifle likes them and usually I start at the bottom and work my way up. I used to have an M1a that just loved El Cheapo HRT loads and FMGM didn't work as well in that rifle.
 
Padom,

Looking at the targets/results, I am going to give my opinion.

It is the rifle, not you. Nothing in the bullet holes indicate any consistency whatsoever. All this discussion on fundamentals belay the point.

I would recommend shooting a quality bolt gun in the same caliber and then seeing if you get similar results. I doubt you will. With the method of using a bag and shooting at only 100 yards, your groups should be much smaller. There is a harsh reality regarding semi automatics. When comparing similar quality, the accuracy of a semi-automatic are no where near a bolt gun. The only exception would be possible a JP Rifle or a GA Precision (GAP-10) rifle.

The plus side is that you have a quality optic in Leupold and quality rings in Nightforce. I think you did a good job building the rifle. Just do not let the people on here blame you when really it is the rifle.

By way of example, here is a 4 shot group at 100 yards: <a href="http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/NeilGift/media/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b636/NeilGift/Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo Stillatackdriver_zps4c04b61f.jpg"/></a>

You will see that I have slight stringing up and down, my breathing, which I am still working on.
 
I am not using any rear support but do have a rear support shooting bag. I think its the front bag rest Im using. I am unable to get the correct height so I put blocks of wood under the bag which is not the most stable. I through my cheapo bipod on the rifle and practiced dry firing in the house. The setup feels much more stable with less movement using the bipod. Im going to try the bipod out this weekend and if that fixes the issue I will purchase a Atlas.

Thanks for the feedback. I hope its not the rifle and Im not going to start blaming the rifle until I get alot of practice as like I said, this is the first powered optic/rifle combo Ive shot in my life.
 
Just to add to what everyone else said. In many cases I have helped fellow shooters at the range who were getting the same type of vertical stringing you are getting when transitioning to 308 semi's from bolt actions. I suggested letting me load the rifle mag without the shooter seeing if I put a cartridge in or not. You would be surprised at how many of the shooters pulled down hard on the rifle when there was no cartridge in the chamber. Most were suppressed that they were jerking the trigger so badly.I am not suggesting this is your problem but it could be. As others have said you could also let another shooter who you know to be proficient in shooting 308 semi's shoot your rifle and compare the results. That should tell you where the problem lies.
Good luck in getting your problem solved.
 
Was able to get to the range today and test some of the ammo I received this week. I shot prone on the concrete firing line with a cheap bipod and rear shooting bag. I also made my own circles at 1 1/4" inches with red marker which I believe helped. Much better results than my first go around. Shot FGMM 175gr, XM118LR and Hornady 168gr BTHP Match. I am getting a flyer on each group even though I load 6 rounds in the mag but shoot 5. I am pretty positive Im jerking the trigger to quickly causing that flyer. I am going to order an Atlas 4.75"-9" bipod for the gun. Also will be receiving a bunch of FGMM 168gr this upcoming week and will test that. I think a few more range sessions I could be shooting sub moa 5 shot groups with this setup.

 
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Tickled pink. Thanks for the feedback. The trigger is definitely getting replaced with an ssa-e along with an Atlas bipod.

I have to say the POF has run flawless. Not a single failure or malfunction. Recoil is minimal. I'm pretty sure my results are due to the fact that I have zero precision rifle training or practice. I probably have 250 rounds through the rifle.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk now Free
 
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Looking at your 2nd row of 5 shot groups on your target your POF appears to like 168 BTHP better than the other 2 types. I would concentrate on those and practice your trigger control. I have several 308's a POF among them and all of mine shoot best with 168 grain SMK's.
 
Looking at your 2nd row of 5 shot groups on your target your POF appears to like 168 BTHP better than the other 2 types. I would concentrate on those and practice your trigger control. I have several 308's a POF among them and all of mine shoot best with 168 grain SMK's.

You think so? My best group was top row last circle on right which was pretty good 4 shots with 5th being a flyer.

Anyway, we will see as I have a bunch of FGMM 168gr arriving today or tomorrow. I am also putting in an SSE-E, Magpul PRS stock and Atlas BT10LW17. I think the SSA-E will bring the biggest improvements as I just don't like the stock 4.5lb POF trigger.
 
You think so? My best group was top row last circle on right which was pretty good 4 shots with 5th being a flyer.

Anyway, we will see as I have a bunch of FGMM 168gr arriving today or tomorrow. I am also putting in an SSE-E, Magpul PRS stock and Atlas BT10LW17. I think the SSA-E will bring the biggest improvements as I just don't like the stock 4.5lb POF trigger.

I din't discount the flyer on your op right group but tried-to average all your groups. Yes the 4 shots were a nice group but that flyer shouldn't be discounted when averaging all the groups. What I do with my POF and other rifles when shooting for groups I over lay all targets I have shot with a particular load on a blank target and mark the holes. This gives me a much better picture of how the load is performing. I tried visually to do that with your groups. I could be wrong, only time will tell.
I like to know how you are doing with the 168 SMK's.
By the way I agree with you on the POF stock. I replaced mine with a PRS as well. My POF is a 16" not that it makes any difference, I would have replaced the stock with a PRS even if it was a 14.5' barrel.
Good luck with your rifle.
 
Thanks for the feedback and insight. I will be shooting an entire board (9 targets) with FGMM 168gr this week so we should see how the 168gr SMK do. And I just dont like the STR and will add the PRS as the 14.5" barrel has no bearing on my decision. I think the new trigger is going to yield the biggest improvement based off the feedback I have received.
 
Something is really fishy with these shots. I would do the following. Sometimes you just cant get a rifle to group.

1. If you are using a bipod on the front, get it as low as possible and try putting a sand bag in front and behind the bipod legs. With that short of a barrel and that high of a bipod, bipod jump is going to be a bitch. You have some serious vertical dispersal of your groups, but noticed you have no bullet holes an inch under your point of aim. Id almost bet money bipod jump with your non typical set up is half your battle. Maybe even try a group or two with a sandbag front with no bipod. The more level you can get your rifle when taking your shots the better. If your rifle doesnt flow straight back into your shoulder and jumps a little = half of your battle. The smallest amount of bipod jump will kill a group.

2. Iv noticed that when shooting sopmod type buttstocks that ill use an owlear rear sand bag but with the ears of the bag going front to back and not left to right, and cup the tip of the buttstock into the cup of the sandbag.

3. If youre not reloading, then you cant expect to get a reloaders results. Ammo makes such a huge diffence when it comes to good groups.

4. Try two groups of each. Loaded bipod. Not loaded bipod. Sandbag up front. Firm grip on rifle and grip. Loose grip on rifle and grip. Each one of my AR's like to be shot different. Once you find something that works its all about being consistant. Set parralax. Dont remove head from cheek weld during your shots. Once you have clear glass with no scope shadow then take your shots and hold that cheekweld and clear glass view.




Was able to get to the range today and test some of the ammo I received this week. I shot prone on the concrete firing line with a cheap bipod and rear shooting bag. I also made my own circles at 1 1/4" inches with red marker which I believe helped. Much better results than my first go around. Shot FGMM 175gr, XM118LR and Hornady 168gr BTHP Match. I am getting a flyer on each group even though I load 6 rounds in the mag but shoot 5. I am pretty positive Im jerking the trigger to quickly causing that flyer. I am going to order an Atlas 4.75"-9" bipod for the gun. Also will be receiving a bunch of FGMM 168gr this upcoming week and will test that. I think a few more range sessions I could be shooting sub moa 5 shot groups with this setup.

 
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I received a bunch of FGMM 168gr early this past week so I went to the range on Thursday. I shot 12 groups (60 rounds) and could not get any consistency going no matter what I did. From prone I heavily concentrated on my breathing, cheek weld, and trigger control but that did nothing.





At this point I feel there is something else going on. I checked all the NF ring screws and everything was solid and tight. I removed the scope and rings to start over again. Before I started the process of re-installing the rings I decided to check all the screws on the top of my rail. ALL THE SCREWS WERE NOT TIGHT AT ALL. I could spin the screws with my finger. I removed each screw, put blue loctite on them and resinstalled them to 25 in. lbs of torque.

I am now re-installing the NF rings and scope following my previous method shown in this Vortex how to video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiRwWlXf0Do

Hopefully my issue was those top rail screws being extremely loose. I guess shame on me for never checking them even though I assumed POF would have installed them with some type of loctite.
 
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I received a bunch of FGMM 168gr early this past week so I went to the range on Thursday. I shot 12 groups (60 rounds) and could not get any consistency going no matter what I did. From prone I heavily concentrated on my breathing, cheek weld, and trigger control but that did nothing.





At this point I feel there is something else going on. I checked all the NF ring screws and everything was solid and tight. I removed the scope and rings to start over again. Before I started the process of resinstalling the rings I decided to check all the screws on the top of my rail. ALL THE SCREWS WERE NOT TIGHT AT ALL. I could spin the screws with my finger. I removed each screw, put blue loctite on them and resinstalled them to 25 in. lbs of torque.

I am now re-installing the NF rings and scope following my previous method shown in this Vortex how to video.

How To Mount A Precision Riflescope - YouTube

Hopefully my issue was those top rail screws being extremely loose. I guess shame on me for never checking them even though I assumed POF would have installed them with some type of loctite.

You will get it!
 
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I can tell by your sloppy-ass handwriting that nothing you do is done with precision.
Doubt its the rifle at all.
The rifle according to your groups is 4.0moa at best.
In reality its probably a 1.5-2.0 moa rifle.
You need to go back to bolt guns, as there is no hope in the gas-gun arena for you.
Not try to cut you down personally, just saying how I see it.

In my line of work precision is required on a daily basis. How nice of you to stop in and provide non informative comments on your first post ever here at snipers hide. If you read my entire thread you would know I don't own or have never fired a bolt action gun so going back to bolts is out for me. And, I guess every screw that secures the top rail to the upper being so loose there at the point of falling out of the gun means I don't know what I'm doing, can't shoot and has no effect on accuracy......

How do you provide the asshole post you just did then end it with "Not try to cut you down personally, just saying how I see it?"

It appears to me you have no level of education and I will move on from wasting my time with such scum. This is a site that people help each other, not start their membership posting worthless crap as you have done.
 
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I can tell by your sloppy-ass handwriting that nothing you do is done with precision.
Doubt its the rifle at all.
The rifle according to your groups is 4.0moa at best.
In reality its probably a 1.5-2.0 moa rifle.
You need to go back to bolt guns, as there is no hope in the gas-gun arena for you.
Not try to cut you down personally, just saying how I see it.

Go back to Arfcom....

There is most definite hope for him and his great rife. Just need to get the kinks worked out and some more practice. I'm still guessing something was loose, as the rail screws seemed to be.
 
Go back to Arfcom....

There is most definite hope for him and his great rife. Just need to get the kinks worked out and some more practice. I'm still guessing something was loose, as the rail screws seemed to be.

I will get back to the range this week to test again and confirm if it was the loose screws on top of the rail. Every one was literally falling out they were so loose. All have been tightened to 25 in. lbs. and blue loctite has been applied to every screw.
 
Padom, don't pay mind to the trolls, you are working hard at this, good on you. The PRS might really help you out, being comfortable on the gun will make a big difference. Also making sure your optic is screwed down tight will hopefully help. Even if you can get it shaved down to a consistantly 1 MOA gun, you will get hits on steel out pretty far once you learn your ballistics and fundamentals. It's a lot of fun, don't give up!
 
Padom, don't pay mind to the trolls, you are working hard at this, good on you. The PRS might really help you out, being comfortable on the gun will make a big difference. Also making sure your optic is screwed down tight will hopefully help. Even if you can get it shaved down to a consistantly 1 MOA gun, you will get hits on steel out pretty far once you learn your ballistics and fundamentals. It's a lot of fun, don't give up!

Thanks. Im not giving up at this point, too much time and money invested. POF states 1 MOA accuracy in the owners manual so that's my goal. I then want to take a few Black Hat precision rifle classes they hold at a range about 2 hours from me out to 1050 yds once I get this gun dialed in. I will report back later on this week with my results.
 
pdom - in looking at the groups you are consistently inconsistent. Personally my money is that it is you that is inconsistent and not the rifle / load / optic / mount. The dispersion could be explained by inconsistent head position. A PRS could help. A trigger could help. Both are $$. Before you spend a lot of money why don't you get a hold of Chuck here on the board and have him send you an Indoor Training Aid http://www.snipershide.com/shooting.../66789-i-o-t-indoor-optical-training-aid.html.

Take a piece of paper make a single pencil mark on it, move back @ 15 feet, go prone, if the reticle moved, jumped, wiggles - it is on you. Do that 10 minutes a day for a week and if it never moves - box that blaster up and send it back knowing that the problem is in the system not the shooter. If not, you'll be able to teach yourself how to be consistent with what you have for very little money and just your time.
 
I know the 14.5" barrel isn't ideal for precision shooting. I am not looking for .25" groups. I would be happy with 1-1.5 MOA and have seen it done with my same P308 14.5". I may purchase a 20" upper down the road or may just buy a bolt gun. Gap or something along those lines.
 
A 14.5" barrel won't necessarily be any less accurate than a 16" or longer. An argument can be made that there is slight more inherent accuracy potential with all things being equal, as shorter barrel of same the diameter is more rigid. Velocity is the only factor, theoretically anyway. I've seen impressive groups from quality SBR's. Noveske 7.5" and 10.5" AR's for instance.

When he gets this POF dialed in and everything tight and working correctly (and maybe a Geissele trigger), I know he will be printing some sub moa groups, especially if handloads are ever worked up. If not, POF should take care of him.
 
There is no reason that rifle can't be tack driver. The AR platform, piston or DI, is capable of great things. Your groupings show both vertical and horizonal dispersion. As as a matter of ruling out the human element I would suggest locking the rifle down in a vise and seeing what happens. Beyond that vertical dispersion can be a symptom inconsistant ammunition, a bad scope or mounting, or poor techique. horizonal dispersion can be result of enviromental variations, poor rifle construction, bad scope or mounting, or poor techique. All of that is overly simplifed. But the good news is that all of those things are things that can be fixed.

Like I said before the Ar platform is capable of great things. So don't underestimate your equipment. Hell even with me pulling 4 shots my DPMS put out this group the other day:

So don't get discouraged. Give it time and you will find and correct the problem(s). Then I bet you will be amazed at what you and your rifle can accomplish.
 
Padom, where are you located in PA. You may find you are very close to another SH member that could help get you sorted out and run through some basic checks and exercises with you to help figure these things out.
 
Flounderv2, I live 10 min off the Downingtown exit of the PA Turnpike. I take SI Training classes pretty often (have one this weekend) at Palmyra Sportsmans Club in Hershey.

Would be willing to meet up with another SH member if my groups don't get any better at the range this week. Hoping it was just all the top rail screws being so loose.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk
 
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The #1 accuracy losing error I see on gas guns is the cheekweld/eye relief difference from shot to shot from the recoil since most gas guns that are AR patterned do not have a stock that is set up for it.

Let's say you get your eye box and relief and everything set for shot 1. You pull the trigger. Multiple things happen, recoil, internal moving parts, the buffer thrashing backwards, etc. Unless you have something like an adjustable MagPul stock or some form of precision stock with an adjustable cheek piece, chances are your head/face/eyes are moving in relation to your stock and optic shot to shot.

It may not be a huge difference initially, but it adds up. For a gas gun with everything else squared away, I am leaning towards ammo and this.
 
I was able to get out to the range today for an hour. Was dying to know if it was me or the top rail screws causing these crazy inconsistent groups. Well I think we can stop wondering and say for sure it was the screws. I shot 2 (5) shot groups of FGMM 168gr at 100 yards and first group was 1.53". Second group I had one flyer but if you cancel the flyer it was 1.38". I was shooting with a cheap bipod and rear bag from prone position off concrete firing line. If your wondering why my groups arent anywhere near the pink dots, its because my zero was off from remounting my scope and adjusting for eye relief. Didnt have the small allen wrench with me to remove knob cops to bring elevation down so i just aimed at the same spot every time to achieve these groups. Will re-adjust zero on Thursday when I get back to the range.

At this point I can now agree the rest is me to get the groups any smaller. I plan to install a PRS stock and SSA-E trigger in the next few weeks which I believe will help me shrink my groups. I have a Magpul STR stock that came with my P308 and I'm not 100% comfortable with the cheek weld but I've used worse. Thank you to all the people that didnt doubt me and encouraged me to keep working at it. I plan to shoot a bunch of groups on Thursday and will post back my results. Hoping for a few 1" groups or smaller.



 
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Nice! Looks way better. Your groups will continue to shrink as you get more comfortable with it. The new trigger and stock will shave them smaller yet. Makes a huge difference to have everything tight and Loctited!
 
Really nice improvement Padom! I have a feeling that a new trigger & stock will help immensely. I know, personally, trigger & cheek weld are two of the biggest factors when squeezing base level accuracy out of a rifle.
 
OK, I read the whole thing and am glad you've eliminated most of the variation.

One thing a couple guys brought up but wasn't thoroughly covered was how to properly use a variable power magnified optic that has a parallax adjustment. Given your experience up to now doesn't seem to have included these types of optics, here are a couple things to think about before you go spending more money to improve your result.

First, at each magnification the distance your eye needs to be from the occular end varies. To find the correct distance, move your eye closer and further away. What you will see is when you are too close, you will begin to see a dark edge/distortion of the image appear around the outside of the image as you back away this will disappear. You will know when you have moved your eye too far away when you notice that the image appears to be reducing in size/your field of view begins to deminish. The proper eye relief for that magnification is somewhere between these 2 points. Once you've got the correct distance you need to insure your eye is centered in the "eye box". I think it's more like an eye circle but whatever. With the proper eye relief for that magnification, move your head around side to side and up and down. You will see the edges of the image degrade as your eye travels outside the optimal position. Find a spot where the image clarity is even all the way around the image and now you have an appropriate cheek weld which addresses relief and eye box.

Now the removal of parallax from the system at that particular range is accomplished by remaining in your previous cheek weld position and turning the parallax adjustment until you see a nice crisp image. To verify that the parallax has been removed, gently move your head in small circles while maintaining your cheek weld and holding the rifle secure. If the reticle does NOT stay on the target, further adjustment will be required to eliminate parallax. When properly adjusted, the reticle should stay ON target when your moving your head with the proper eye relief and eye box placement(cheek weld).

The best part of this is when you finally observe for yourself how it works and the result demonstrates that.
 
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