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.224 Valkyrie

CFE223. If I remember right the book max is 27.6grs. I hovered right around 3000fps with decent ES and regular mag length seating depth. I’ll focus more on the accuracy of that load when I get the time, I was more concerned about the reliability of cycling at the time. I bought a box of 53gr VMAXs to see if I can get them close to 3400. This is my coyote gun wearing a thermal so I want it to be fast and flat out to 300ish.
 
Hi Guys! Will have my supplies in next week to load up my first reloads for .224 Valkarie.

Will have CFE powder(TAC, WC844, Winchester 748 as well but less suited?).
75gr ELD match
80gr ELD match
88gr ELD match

I have about 250 once fired Federal cases and bought 200 Starline cases to compare against.

Dies will be Hornday Custom dies to start off with.

Any tips/suggestions for first loads? I'll read along obviously and have seen some loads I will look into, but just feeling you all out on my first attempts.
 
I ordered some starline brass and more 88s this week. I see the rave reviews on starline which is why I picked it up (I also needed brass). Can anyone here with the valkyrie tell me what to look for or expect when comparing my federal reloads with the starline?
 
Just to see what the average shooter might be able to expect from a 224. I stabbed an 18" 1:7 twist, 416R, RL, button pulled barrel from DC Machine. Dropped an Athlon Aries BTR on it. Used box ammo. Ran the Hornady 88 gr ELD. Since the average shooter may/may not have a chrono, I did not chrono. Box Ammo performed very well. So well, I'm going to run this rig just like it is at the Absolute Zero Finale at Frontline Defense.
 
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I just loaded up about 85 rounds using virgin starline brass and I must say it is quite decent. I did run it through a Sinclair Carbide expander mandrel as some of the case necks were out of round. Passed case gauge otherwise though so I just ran the mandrel through them, primed, charged etc... Testing some Hornady 75gr, 80gr and 88gr ELD match bullets. CFE powder. Hopefully I find something my rifle likes.
 
224valk said:
Any chance you can share your load data for the 90s?
Click to expand...

Right around 26 grains of CFE 223 should give you good results with 88’s and 90’s. That seems like what most other guys I have talked to have found to work too. I believe 26 is the published max load but I needed to go .2 grains higher in my rifle with Federal brass. Obviously you would want to work up. I also had really good luck with 85’s and 25.5g of CFE 223. I was able to get a lot higher velocities going higher but the accuracy was so outstanding I stayed with the lighter load. This is 5 shots with the 85 grain load. I think the stars and everything else aligned when I shot this one but it is always under .5moa and a great performer out to 700 yards. When I first shot that during load development I thought something happened and I was off target. When I fired the last shot I realized that I had just sent several rounds through the same hole. Hopefully I will be able to stretch it’s legs out to 1000 yds soon.

9258D8E9-8C58-41D6-9C15-579E349D6AA3.jpeg
 
Thanks for that! I did some cfe223 loads with the 88s but nothing shot close to that. Started at 25.3 and went to 26.1. Sending them out of a 24" 1:7 twist. I'm going to redo those loads though with starline and see if I get any better.
 
I didn’t get anything that good with the 88’s or 90’s either. I got my best accuracy with 85gr RDF’s. With the 90SMK’s I can get right around .5 MOA but I haven’t had a chance to play much with the 88’s yet. I plan to switch from the 90’s to the 88’s once the big box I have is gone. I like the Sierra Bullets but they are just so much more expensive than the Hornady ELD’s.
 
Anyone try Winchester’s w748 and 75gr eld-m? I did by sorta accident. Thought I had cfe in powder drop and loaded some 75 and 88gr eld. The 88’s were a nightmare but the 85’s showed some promise. I may revisit this load. Chrono batt died during my creedmoor testing so I don’t have any velocities sorry. Tried up to 26gr with the 75’s and they were grouping decent. I was cold and in a hurry so I didn’t expect big holes.
 
Best group to date out at 100yds...73gr eld, 29.3 gr pp 2000mr at 3022 fps avg. (barrel sped up about 40fps since first 200rds) Seated about .015 off.
18" 7tw Rock creek.
 

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Anyone heard good or bad about the Larue 224v barrels?

I picked one up with matching bolt.. 20" 1/7

On the fence weather to handloads for it...
 
chavezz556 said:
Anyone heard good or bad about the Larue 224v barrels?

I picked one up with matching bolt.. 20" 1/7

On the fence weather to handloads for it...
Click to expand...
Well, first see how it shoots factory loads, after you break in the barrel a bit. Then you can decide. I bought my .224 with the primary thought being that it would be a fun rifle to shoot with relatively inexpensive factory ammo. And it is.

That doesn’t mean that I won’t get the bug soon enough to want to tweak it for even tighter shooting loads at some point. It’s great to have options.
 
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Been playing with the 224 Valkyrie the last couple days.
Its a 18" Rock Creek Rainier Arms (7twist) barrel +1" gas system with a JP adjustable gas block. Attached to a Ascend armory receiver set with SSA-E trigger and PRI magazine.

All shots were taken with a bipod and rear bag at 180 meters. Using Varget and 90 grain sierra match kings and once fired Federal Brass and CCI #400 primers.
I did not have access to a chrono so i dont have any velocity data. But will be able to extrapolate later when I shoot out to distance with my kestrel.

The rifle seemed to like 23.2 grains of varget. Bullet seating for powder charge testing was .060 off the lans. Had a couple fliers but still within sub moa.
QIDI8313.jpg


After finding the powder charge I played with bullet depth seating. Just used the depths from the Berger reloading manual except for the .060 they use .050.
1) .010
2).060
3).090
4).130

IMG_2173.jpg


I shot the seating depth groups one after the other. Number 1 I shot 3 in the top then 3 more into the bottom 1inch target and so on. The target paper is a little messed up from bullet splash. I used a metal bar to hold the box up and some bullets hit it and splashed back breaking thru the paper.

Seems like the 224 Valk likes being really close to the lans .010 and also likes jumping at .130. I chose to just use the .130 jump, the .010 was almost touching the magazine walls.

This was my first time loading for the ar-15 platform and wasn't as hard as i thought it would be. I will probably just use this powder charge and seating depth for awhile. I typically run 5 shot groups but didn't have enough for bullet seating test. But 1/2 " at 180 meters for me is pretty awesome. Mainly using the rifle for coyotes and target shooting.
 
Looks nice. Will be interesting to see if you can chrono those loads and make sure the ES/SD's are good. Should make for an accurate long range load then :)
 
So haven't had a lot of time to shoot (let alone post) due to hunting, comps and work. But I decided to retune my 88ELD load specifically for suppressor use.

I was having some issues running same load suppressed and unsuppressed so I went back to drawing board and ran OCW from 25-26gr CFE at .2 intervals. Then picked best SD and ran seating depth test at .010 intervals from 2.250 to 2.310. target below is seating depth test, confirmation load and gas block tuning. Results are fantastic.

Ultimately, load testing brought me to this:
88ELDM, Federal brass,
25.4gr CFE223,
2.270" OAL,
2670 FPS at 30deg F
SD of 8-10 over multiple 5 shot groups.
Avg group of .6" (.4-.5" after tuning gas block).

20181123_142221.jpg


I still get an occasional flyer (more than .75" out of group center with good trigger break) but I think these may be either bad bullet or just combination of recoil/hold and bad bullet. Had 2 noticable flyers out of 50 rounds fired. I can live with that out of gas gun.

I find it much harder to shoot this 26" +2" gas gun than my 18-20" rifle length guns. And very picky to tune gas system due to the long dwell time. Hope this helps.

Planning to test H4350 with ELDs (due to long barrel) and maybe find new 69 TMK load for zippy fun coyote load.
 
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chavezz556 said:
Picked up some Varget... and some starline brass for 224 V

Anyone have recommendations on mags that will take longer OAL bullets ?
Click to expand...
PRI mags or ASC mags will both accept over 2.300. I believe ASC will run slightly longer (2.315-2.320 if I recall).

I'm using PRI's and they have been good but I did have a follower spring break a week ago. Called them and they've mailed out a new spring at no cost. YMMV overall very happy with them but they are more expensive than ASC mags.
 
Took the Val and 47L out today, had to go out to my other buddies pvt range so had to do a bit of walking. Wanted to test out a Radius I got my hands on against my Leica as well. Set two 12" plates out, one at 700yds for the Val and another at 1k for the 47L. Winds were a bit gusty and steady at 12mph and I only had 25rds with me so I did not try the 73gr eld out to 1k today.

700yd steel thru the 47L..prior to breaking out the Val. Tried to capture it thru the 10x max on the Val but the higher mag on the bolt gun paints a prettier pic.
20181123_144547.jpg


The 73 eld exceeded my expectations, considering the gusts with consistent hits on steel, am very pleased. Strelok was spot on and there was no need for walk in sighters. Held off a mil steady for wind and did drop 3 rds during heavy gust but I think I'll just stick with the 73 eld-m, it is doing all and then some of what I need it to do for my needs. I have to say I am very, very pleased with the Valkyries performance. My only regret is that I didn't attempt 1k today, maybe tomorrow after cooking up some more loads.

20181123_120351.jpg
 
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I have been shooting the 75’s in my Valkyrie and really like them. I honestly would have bought the 80’s but it looks like availability is spotty. I hate running out of a bullet I like and not being able to find them.
 
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chavezz556 said:
I also ordered Tubbs Final Finish.. will report back how that works out
Click to expand...


Final finish or Throat maintenance system?...without going off topic too much.. but the two are different. I use Tms as a quick break in and every few hundred rds, but the Final Finish lapping rounds are aggressive and I would be very hesitant to use the heavy grit lapping rounds on a new bbl. Ultimately its your gig but just wanted to give ya a heads up.

Is your barrel giving you issues in the fouling dept?
 
I'm using the hornady 2 die set with micro adjuster addon. Seems food so far.
 
Has anyone tried the new Lee Dies yet?

Always had good luck with them in common calibers, but not sure how well they do in the more precision calibers.
 
I ended up purchasing the Redding premium deluxe 3 die set, I guess I will be trying these out.....I may have to order a vld seating stem for the 88gr eld-m’s but idk we will see.
 
VSP968
I was looking through this thread again and noticed that you have the redding 68387 set.... how do you like them? Do I need to get a different seating stem to reload for the 88gr or any other vld?
 
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Shifty6BR said:
Final finish or Throat maintenance system?...without going off topic too much.. but the two are different. I use Tms as a quick break in and every few hundred rds, but the Final Finish lapping rounds are aggressive and I would be very hesitant to use the heavy grit lapping rounds on a new bbl. Ultimately its your gig but just wanted to give ya a heads up.

Is your barrel giving you issues in the fouling dept?
Click to expand...
Nope .. maybe I ordered the wrong stuff.. I wanted the break in bullets..

Barrel is brand new
 
Shifty6BR said:
Final finish or Throat maintenance system?...without going off topic too much.. but the two are different. I use Tms as a quick break in and every few hundred rds, but the Final Finish lapping rounds are aggressive and I would be very hesitant to use the heavy grit lapping rounds on a new bbl. Ultimately its your gig but just wanted to give ya a heads up.

Is your barrel giving you issues in the fouling dept?
Click to expand...
I just looked.. I ordered the final finish+tms..

Maybe I'll use the FF on my 223 and the TMs on the valk
 
chavezz556 said:
I just looked.. I ordered the final finish+tms..

Maybe I'll use the FF on my 223 and the TMs on the valk
Click to expand...
FWIW, I've used the Final Finish Lapping system and TMS on several rifles. I am solidly sold that it is a good product that can help precision with a few caveats:

Edited: added link to thread: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tubbs-fire-lapping-system.6868834/#post-6892467
  • I the Final Finish system (all 50 bullets/grits) used it on factory barrels that averaged anywhere between .75MOA and 2MOA.
  • ALL of them improved precision between 25% and 50%. SD's improved about 10-20%. No velocity loss that I could attribute to the system.
  • You will need to tweak loads slightly (.1-.2 grains and/or seating depth) to maximize results.
  • Lands moved forward about .005-.010 on most rifles. Not an issue for most rifles but something to consider.
  • Both of the AR barrels I used the system reduced flyers and improved precision significantly (1moa down to .6moa and .9moa to .6moa); the gas ports also look VERY CLEAN after using and one looks nearly perfect even after 1500 rounds.
I can't say 100% that FF helped keep the ports clean and burr free but other rifles that I have not used it on have knarly looking erosion after 500-1000 rounds.

If your rifle is shooting .75-1.25moa on average, I the the FF system will help it quite a bit, especially if it's random flyers opening groups.

YMMV. I will try to dig up the link to my post (and one other member here) that talks about it.
 
Subwrx300 said:
FWIW, I've used the Final Finish Lapping system and TMS on several rifles. I am solidly sold that it is a good product that can help precision with a few caveats:

Edited: added link to thread: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/tubbs-fire-lapping-system.6868834/#post-6892467
  • I the Final Finish system (all 50 bullets/grits) used it on factory barrels that averaged anywhere between .75MOA and 2MOA.
  • ALL of them improved precision between 25% and 50%. SD's improved about 10-20%. No velocity loss that I could attribute to the system.
  • You will need to tweak loads slightly (.1-.2 grains and/or seating depth) to maximize results.
  • Lands moved forward about .005-.010 on most rifles. Not an issue for most rifles but something to consider.
  • Both of the AR barrels I used the system reduced flyers and improved precision significantly (1moa down to .6moa and .9moa to .6moa); the gas ports also look VERY CLEAN after using and one looks nearly perfect even after 1500 rounds.
I can't say 100% that FF helped keep the ports clean and burr free but other rifles that I have not used it on have knarly looking erosion after 500-1000 rounds.

If your rifle is shooting .75-1.25moa on average, I the the FF system will help it quite a bit, especially if it's random flyers opening groups.

YMMV. I will try to dig up the link to my post (and one other member here) that talks about it.
Click to expand...
I have a new Larue 20" barrel .. my 223 is a 16" green mountain with 4500 count..

Which one should I use on each?


Edit... After watching an interview with Tubb.. he actually says that Larue runs the FF thru the barrels before the ship.. I will probably call just to be sure.. he also says to run the FF at 60-80% load on a new barrel
 
Last edited:
chavezz556 said:
I have a new Larue 20" barrel .. my 223 is a 16" green mountain with 4500 count..

Which one should I use on each?
Click to expand...
Well, it depends. If the Green Mountain is shooting well (for your purpose) then maybe only the TMS system. If you want to use it as an experiment, shoot it before for a few 5 round groups then use the Final finish system and see how it does after. The Larue could shoot well out of the box and need nothing, but might benefit from the last 2-3 grits in the final finish system.

It's always a gamble either way but I doubt very much anything will be hurt by either system. Note: you are supposed to clean the barrel after using either system before switching back to normal ammo. I'd read through instructions and see which way you want to go.

Personally, I'd shoot 50 rounds through the Larue before using Final Finish just as a baseline, then use the FF system if needed. The TMS is more for maintenance, not to improve barrel performance and reduce copper fouling (which is what the Final Finish system does).
 
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Subwrx300 said:
Well, it depends. If the Green Mountain is shooting well (for your purpose) then maybe only the TMS system. If you want to use it as an experiment, shoot it before for a few 5 round groups then use the Final finish system and see how it does after. The Larue could shoot well out of the box and need nothing, but might benefit from the last 2-3 grits in the final finish system.

It's always a gamble either way but I doubt very much anything will be hurt by either system. Note: you are supposed to clean the barrel after using either system before switching back to normal ammo. I'd read through instructions and see which way you want to go.

Personally, I'd shoot 50 rounds through the Larue before using Final Finish just as a baseline, then use the FF system if needed. The TMS is more for maintenance, not to improve barrel performance and reduce copper fouling (which is what the Final Finish system does).
Click to expand...


I just watched an interview with Tubb.. he actually says that Larue runs the FF thru their new barrels before they ship
 
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I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the only barrels the final finish may actually damage are lined barrels. in the Chrome or Nitride lined barrels, they can be abrasive enough to actually strip away the lining, this eliminating the advantage of those linings.

Never used it though, so that's just what I've heard.
 
Good stuff...I'm not condoning Tubbs system, I used it and am still using it. I have used the Final finish on a couple factory chambers and am an avid user of the Tms in every centerfire caliber I have.

I can see why Larue uses the FF on their chambers it is a form of chamber lapping.
A smooth chamber is nice.

Knowing this now, it should be hopefully likely that you would not need the FF on your Larue barrel.
 
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More load testing just for fun. Retested 80 SMK and 80 Berger VLD using CFE223. Control load is 88 ELDM with 25.4 CFE223; it's been averaging. 6-.7 for 5 shots suppressed over 20+ five shot groups on multiple days and conditions.

I'm almost ignoring group size because there was ZERO wind and mirage was HORRIBLE times 10! Even just firing a two shots, the muzzle gas would create a ball of mirage that hung for 10-15 seconds. After 10-12 shots it was looking through Vaseline that wouldn't go away. Groups are still pretty good considering but I would expect them to tighten up with better conditions.

Both series are running the same charges because I thought it would interesting to see velocity differences and SDs. If you forget the charge and simply look at velocity, the SDs move up and down and virtually identical velocities.

Good SD Nodes for the 80s seem to be at 2820-2850 and another node starts around 2900+. Started to get a little pressure at the top of each load but could likely be tuned out with gas block (it was overgassed and likely unlock a bit early for most charges).

20181130_184524.jpg


Seating depth test to follow next week to see if one of the good SD nodes can be tighten up.
 
Does these measurements seem right to you all? Is this the "good" saami spec on the chamber, all I can find measurements on the www is for smk's? Just getting into reloading and trying to learn, I took a 3/16" wooden dowl rod and put it through the muzzle to the bolt face, marked the rod at the muzzle, then stuck a 88gr into the chamber and kind of played with the bullet to find the lands and once I did I marked that. I then measured with a caliper and came up with these measurements.

base to ogive on 88gr eld-m's: ~1.766"
COAL with the base to ogive measurement: ~2.320"
 
Last edited:
IHFarmer07 said:
Does these measurements seem right to you all? Is this the "good" saami spec on the chamber, all I can find measurements on the www is for smk's? Just getting into reloading and trying to learn, I took a 3/16" wooden dowl rod and put it through the muzzle to the bolt face, marked the rod at the muzzle, then stuck a 88gr into the chamber and kind of played with the bullet to find the lands and once I did I marked that. I then measured with a caliper and came up with these measurements.

base to ogive on 88gr eld-m's: ~1.766"
COAL with the base to ogive measurement: ~1.766"
Click to expand...
I think you've transposed a number... or gotten the definitions of the two measurements youre descibing mixed up a bit. Your first measurement makes sense; the second does not. See below for description and pictures of measurement.

Base to Ogive:
20181202_000633.jpg


COAL
20181202_000808.jpg


Base to ogive refers to base of cartridge to ogive of bullet. For that, while your measurement of 1.766 seems close, no two measurements with different tools will necessarily be the same because the diameter of the ogive measurement tools may be different. Also each lot of bullets can have slightly different variations that cause COAL to be longer or shorter even for same base to Ogive measurement.

COAL is "Cartridge OverAll Length" which is the entire length of round (base to tip of bullet) and the word "ogive" should not be referenced as that would be "base to ogive" (your first measurement.).

For reference, 88 ELDM's are touching lands in my chamber as follows:
Base to Ogive (Touching lands): 1.784"
Corresponding COAL loaded to touch lands: 2.337"
My loaded rounds are B2O: 1.718" and COAL 2.271"; -.066" from lands a.k.a "jump".

Note: my barrel has 1500+ rounds through it and has grown forward about .010" since new.
 
Last edited:
Subwrx300 said:
I think you've transposed a number... or gotten the definitions of the two measurements youre descibing mixed up a bit. Your first measurement makes sense; the second does not. See below for description and pictures of measurement.

Base to Ogive:
View attachment 6979349

COAL
View attachment 6979350

Base to ogive refers to base of cartridge to ogive of bullet. For that, while your measurement of 1.766 seems close, no two measurements with different tools will necessarily be the same because the diameter of the ogive measurement tools may be different. Also each lot of bullets can have slightly different variations that cause COAL to be longer or shorter even for same base to Ogive measurement.

COAL is "Cartridge OverAll Length" which is the entire length of round (base to tip of bullet) and the word "ogive" should not be referenced as that would be "base to ogive" (your first measurement.).

For reference, 88 ELDM's in my chamber is touching lands measure as follows:
Base to Ogive (Touching lands): 1.784"
Corresponding COAL loaded to touch lands: 2.337"
My loaded rounds are B2O: 1.718" and COAL 2.271"; -.066" from lands a.k.a "jump".

Note: my barrel has 1500+ rounds through it and has grown forward about .010" since new.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I had made a mistake...I fixed it now


Ok, so based on your measurements and my corrected measurements, those are very close, awesome! Are you shooting a bolt gun or AR?
 
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IHFarmer07 said:
I figured since the COAL that you was loading was a .066 jump load, that is a FINE looking rifle though! Mines a bolt action so in one mag the 2.320" is all I can run, but other than that I could take and adjust the freebore length and load longer yet.
Click to expand...
I actually ran mine at 2.305" for the first 1000 rounds but the seating depth to hit best accuracy from my rifle was about .020" from lands. Unfortunately, I can't Chase lands any deeper so I worked backwards and found that 2.270 is nearly as good.

When I rebarrel or build bolt gun, I'll probably have freebore and throat cut for the 88s to be seated touching at 2.280" so that I can stay seated closer to lands for most of barrels useful life and stay well under mag length. I loaded a few for single feeding at -.005 and -.010 both of which shot great.
 
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