Is H&K G28 better than Knights SR-25?

[LilGucci]

The army went with the mr762a1/G28 to replace the Knights SR-25 for their M110 program.

This gun (or a version of this gun) is used by many advanced first world countries around the world.

It won mostly because of its size and weight. In your mind, is the G28 a top3 DMR ? Is it better than or equal to the Scar? SR-25? LMT MWS?

If you had $7,000 dollars to spend on only one military-proven DMR(that's still in use), would this be it?

Personally, I'd rather have a Knights or LMT, and this is a mostly proprietary design, but what are the advantages that this gun has that would make it the top choice for so many armies and elite forces around the world? Or is H&K just really effective in their lobbying efforts?

 

[Long Range 338]

By my own admission I'm a HK Fanboy so that prefaces my choice... However by all accounts and reviews that I have seen the G28 is reported to be a great platform, albeit heavy.

The other platforms mentioned are also well known and well loved. The processes by which militaries select their weapons are often bewildering but no doubt have given us many great choices as well as some losers. It seems the newer contracts also have much to do with adaptability and support after the sale. My $0.02 as an outside civilian observer with no insider knowledge at all.

 

[strike33]

We had issues with the M110s at USAMPS, mainly trigger issues. They were also inconsistent in regards to accuracy from platform to platform. They also had to be shipped directly back to Knights for any work.
Out of those currently available I would take the LMT. The barrel change alone makes it the best choice in my opinion.

 

[LilGucci]

We had issues with the M110s at USAMPS, mainly trigger issues. They were also inconsistent in regards to accuracy from platform to platform. They also had to be shipped directly back to Knights for any work.
Out of those currently available I would take the LMT. The barrel change alone makes it the best choice in my opinion.

I've heard about some complaints about the reliability of the M110, users giving Knights the benefit of the doubt, and assuming it was just a bad batch that they worked with.

Is the weight of the LMT an issue for you? I've heard that they are quite heavy.

 

[LilGucci]

By my own admission I'm a HK Fanboy so that prefaces my choice... However by all accounts and reviews that I have seen the G28 is reported to be a great platform, albeit heavy.

In my teens, the HK417 was my favorite semi-auto rifle from playing video games. It's great to see that this rifle has only gained in popularity.

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

 

[towerofpower93]

View attachment 7413424

Two words.

Shelter

Half

 

[Rancid Coolaid]

Two words.

Shelter

Half

Worst 2 words in the English language! Heavy as balls, heavier still when wet, keep in cold and heat while allowing every bug and crawly thing on the planet easy access.

Sorry to derail the thread; but one maybe useful point: military mission is often not the same as my (now civilian) mission, so "grain of salt" that "which military rifle" conversation. I looked at the LMT awhile back and went with a Sig 716 instead. It was cheaper, it was designed as a piston gun, it was set up a way I liked, and I don't see much personal benefit to swapping between 308 and 6.5CM/260. True, it lacked some of what the military wants, but after working out a few bugs, it is perfect for my needs. If it is mission-critical to have a modular platform, have at it. I thought that was a cool feature several years ago with a DTA and ended up getting rid of it because it ended up wearing the go to caliber all the time, since I don't always have time/opportunity to take a zero confirmation shot before taking the needed shot.

I do understand there are those that lack funds/space/spouses/ etc to have several options in a ready-to-use configuration; my "mission critical" might not be your "mission critical". Newton was right, frame of reference matters much!

 

[ShaoKahn]

I have a G28 clone from an MR762. Absolutely love it and wouldn’t trade it for anything. Hits steel out to 500 yrds ridiculous easy and is just a joy to shoot. It’s heavy, but when you’re behind it, it’s awesome. But it isn’t $7000 after it’s all said and done. More like $12,000 with all options, and let me tell you, you will have to hunt around for parts to build your G28. Took me like 2 years to get all the authentic HK parts together. I had to wait almost a year for the rail.

That being said, I plan to get an SR25 and Scar 20 as well, because, you know, variety.

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

I had a half converted MR762, G28 stock and rail. Heavy, super accurate, reliable enough for hunting and plinking. Never had a problem with it at all. Sold it to build a gucci Grendel AR-15 with night vision and a TBAC can. Much happier with the Grendel. The best thing about the G28 though is the stock, cheek weld is amazing, other than that I would never go back.

 

[dms416]

From various internet sources/podcasts/etc:

It has been implied that the CSASS M110A1 selection was largely due to the optics/accessory package more so than the gun.

Also, it's also been implied that the M110A1 is only going to be in the DMR flavor with the 1-6x optic and not with the 3-20 US package.

Regarding the the KAC M110 issues
- A bad batch was confirmed, but it should not be overlooked that some people experience doubling not do to mechanical trigger failure but improper technique.
- Accuracy problems aren't specific as we all know it's easy for shooter/technique error in large-frame gas guns
- Numerous people pointing to the suppressor and initial 3.5-10x optic sucking
- That idiotic A2 with extendable LOP stock on the M110

Used to be a huge HK guy and had a couple of SR25's and two SR15's. Frankly it's been a delight not to have to fuck with either with their prices, proprietary parts, and availability.

 

[LilGucci]

From various internet sources/podcasts/etc:

It has been implied that the CSASS M110A1 selection was largely due to the optics/accessory package more so than the gun.

Also, it's also been implied that the M110A1 is only going to be in the DMR flavor with the 1-6x optic and not with the 3-20 US package.

The CSASS does have some sweet accessories, and one has to wonder whether that $12,000 per gun pricepoint was largely due that package, especially that Schmidt&Bender optic + Aimpoint T1 combo.

 

[RyanScott]

In fairness a lot of the things people don’t like about the M110 were mandated by the Army, and current KAC offerings are two or more generations more mature than the M110.

 

[Sandhog308]

Another H&K fan here. Saving up to get a 417 to keep my Models 91 & 93 company.
Both are built like tanks , the Germans make some sweet weapons. That said , I wouldn’t want to hump either long , too heavy ...but doable !!

 

[Jsp556]

If you had $7,000 dollars to spend on only one military-proven DMR(that's still in use), would this be it?

No.

I looked into KAC, FN, HK, Colt, and LMT when I was getting into these type rifles. They are all quality guns with proven records. In the end, I went with LMT due to spare parts availability and the ablilty of the end user to maintain the system.

The HK you can buy will be a neutered version.

 

[GhostFace]

I went with LMT due to spare parts availability and the ablilty of the end user to maintain the system.

That's the big thing with me, being able to maintain my rifle.

 

[ShaoKahn]

If you had $7,000 dollars to spend on only one military-proven DMR(that's still in use), would this be it?

No.

I looked into KAC, FN, HK, Colt, and LMT when I was getting into these type rifles. They are all quality guns with proven records. In the end, I went with LMT due to spare parts availability and the ablilty of the end user to maintain the system.

The HK you can buy will be a neutered version.

Nope. The only difference between an HK MR762 and the G28 model is the upper receiver on the G28 is steel versus aluminum on the MR762. Outside of furniture, they are the same. Both the MR762 and G28 are semi-auto.

 

[DocRDS]

As a special ops potato I have never understood the premium on the KAC and HK products nor has anyone ever shown me their improved performance over an LMT (preparing for flames incoming)

 

[Jsp556]

Nope. The only difference between an HK MR762 and the G28 model is the upper receiver on the G28 is steel versus aluminum on the MR762. Outside of furniture, they are the same. Both the MR762 and G28 are semi-auto.

So you can buy the rifle with a chrome lined barrel?

 

[ShaoKahn]

So you can buy the rifle with a chrome lined barrel?

The G28 is a DMR and is not chrome lined. The HK417 is full auto and has the chrome lined barrel.

 

[Jsp556]

I

The G28 is a DMR and is not chrome lined. The HK417 is full auto and has the chrome lined barrel.

I stand corrected.

 

[LilGucci]

In fairness a lot of the things people don’t like about the M110 were mandated by the Army, and current KAC offerings are two or more generations more mature than the M110.

That is what SmallArmsSolutions was saying. There have been over 30 change orders that Knight's has tried to put through with the US military, and maybe only one of them have been approved, so the civilian SR-25 is far more up to date because it has all of those improvements that the US military M110 does not.

 

[LilGucci]

I went with LMT due to spare parts availability and the ablilty of the end user to maintain the system.

That is my biggest draw to doing an LMT build over a Knigbts build. But does the weight of the LMT concern you?

I don't know if these numbers are accurate, but from what I've been hearing from the community, the LMT is heavier then the alternatives.

- LMT MWS - 9.98lbs
- HK MR762 - 9.84lbs
- Sig 716 Patrol - 9.5lbs
- LWRC REPR MK2 - 9lbs
- KAC SR25 PC - 9lbs
- DD DD5V1 - 8.3lbs

 

[RyanScott]

My MWS was 1.5 pounds heavier than my SR-25 and the balance point was extra thick and full of sharp edges. Guess which one was worth the extra money.

 

[craigos]

Had a Mr762 and it shot like shit - and i am a hk fanboy - sold it for a larue obr and it shoots lights out.

 

[scharfschutze762]

The G28 is a DMR and is not chrome lined. The HK417 is full auto and has the chrome lined barrel.

Negative..Its chrome lined as specified requirement by the Bund. As is the new compact version. The hammer forged steel is different material also as is the MR556 vs 416.

 

[ShaoKahn]

Negative..Its chrome lined as specified requirement by the Bund. As is the new compact version. The hammer forged steel is different material also as is the MR556 vs 416.

Ah, you’re right. The MR762 also doesn’t have an adjustable gas block either. For some reason I thought the G28 didn’t have the chrome lined barrel. Thanks for correction.

 

[Jsp556]

The weight doesn’t bother me. As RyanScott mentioned, the balance point has sharp edges and that is the only complaint I have.

Ah, you’re right. The MR762 also doesn’t have an adjustable gas block either. For some reason I thought the G28 didn’t have the chrome lined barrel. Thanks for correction.

I thought I was right about the barrel but it wasn’t worth arguing the point.

 

[Strykervet]

In fairness a lot of the things people don’t like about the M110 were mandated by the Army, and current KAC offerings are two or more generations more mature than the M110.

Yep, they always fuck it up.

They mandate reflex cans and shit, then when it doesn't work like they imagined in their offices, they bitch KAC fucked up and went with someone overseas.

Why they bought a several thousand dollar rifle and put a goddamn $500 Sig scope on it, I'll never understand. But that's how they roll.

FWIW, I was one of the OG SDM instructors back in the '00's. We had to make do with stock M4's and an ACOG with a Harris bipod. Nothing special. Now they get LESS training and they THROW money at the weapon systems. I had guys consistently making 2MOA hits with M855 at 600m (not all rifles were capable of that mind you, nor all shooters but some could drive it to the limit). Will this rifle extend that to 800m and 1MOA on average? I doubt it and if anything I bet it'll hamper 'em. An SDM still needs to be able to fight like any other 11B and at any moment.

IMO, they'd be best served with the MK20 and probably that 6x ACOG with an RMR for up close shit. Harris and PEQ and call it good.

How would I know? I got an SR25 and the MK20, fondled the MWS and wasn't that impressed, know enough about HK to know they're nowhere worth near what they charge for 'em.

But I think another feature of the HK is that it uses a piston and they wanted a cooler action with less shit blown back in to it. In that case, Mk20. They cost half as much too.

 

[Mj30wilson900]

The military tends to pick the best weapon at the time and run it into the ground without allowing significant improvements along the way. The sr-25 now is not the sr-25 when the army adopted it. I would pick the sr-25 hands down because it keeps up with the hk but does it with less weight. Hk probably is more accurate but knights continues to improve the platform while hk is relatively new to the game even though they came out swinging. Hk muzzle is metric threaded so you have to adapt or buy only their stuff. Still knights pedigree for me.

 

[db2000]

Ah, you’re right. The MR762 also doesn’t have an adjustable gas block either. For some reason I thought the G28 didn’t have the chrome lined barrel. Thanks for correction.

Did you build your clone wrong?

 

[db2000]

$7k I’d just buy 2 Seekins SP10’s

 

[RUTGERS95]

Lots of sr25 excuses here. Is what it is

This has proprietary mags, plastic port door and a prop nut. Deal killer to me

Do not see anything here that makes this better than kac or lmt.

Id choose the lmt again

 

[RUTGERS95]

As a special ops potato I have never understood the premium on the KAC and HK products nor has anyone ever shown me their improved performance over an LMT (preparing for flames incoming)

Price is proven to be a determinant of perceived value. All 3 are fine platforms however

 

[thehun]

I think the two best .308 semi options where you get reliability + accuracy right now is the HK417 and SCAR 20 platforms.

I’d throw the LMT in there too if it was so darn gassy for a lefty.

I think the most pleasant .308s to shot weigh in between 9-10lbs bare...anything lighter (except the SCAR 17) gets a bit snappy.

I wanted to say that before the weight chasing ninjas and PSA/Aero range ninjas come to play in this thread and be bearish about high end platforms.

 

[Mj30wilson900]

I think the two best .308 semi options where you get reliability + accuracy right now is the HK417 and SCAR 20 platforms.

I’d throw the LMT in there too if it was so darn gassy for a lefty.

I think the most pleasant .308s to shot weigh in between 9-10lbs bare...anything lighter (except the SCAR 17) gets a bit snappy.

I wanted to say that before the weight chasing ninjas and PSA/Aero range ninjas come to play in this thread and be bearish about high end platforms.

If the scar wasn’t so hard on optics or they came out with optics that was not affected by its recoil impulse I would be all over it. If it keeps killing my scopes it won’t be around my house long.

 

[thehun]

For SCARs:

NF, Elcan, SB etc are all good to go. Your high end offers should be good to go and from what gather...many get tested on the SCARs.

Biggest thing you need is a quality mount that is 0 MOA with no cantilever unless that cantilever has a backbone like Geissele or Leupold Mk6 IMS...non-QD...mounted as rearward as possible.

Why I recommend Elcans on SCARs...the backlash springs that are built in to their mounts soak up the negative harmonics from the SCAR.

 

[Mj30wilson900]

For SCARs:

NF, Elcan, SB etc are all good to go. Your high end offers should be good to go and from what gather...many get tested on the SCARs.

Biggest thing you need is a quality mount that is 0 MOA with no cantilever unless that cantilever has a backbone like Geissele or Leupold Mk6 IMS...non-QD...mounted as rearward as possible.

Why I recommend Elcans on SCARs...the backlash springs that are built in to their mounts soak up the negative harmonics from the SCAR.

Has anyone done Independent testing of the backbone mounts to test strength?

 

[thehun]

Has anyone done Independent testing of the backbone mounts to test strength?

Well...SOCOM uses the Mk6 DAGR with good results...as well as Geissele...not sure what independent tests you seek...they are quite expensive.

 

[TheGerman]

Its a replacement for the full size, original M110 in mind, while completely ignoring the M110K1. The M110 had growing pains because the .mil got what it asked for ontop of a bad run of barrels and someone's monkey welding some of the original suppressors. if you compare those two, sure, the H&K is ahead. They somehow just don't want to talk about the K1.

It's kind of like basing your new girlfriend off of your ex wife, yet in the meantime youre already dating a much better girlfriend.

It's heaver, has a weird bolt (or recoil system? forget which), even weirder center of gravity/balance, a giant rail you mount the bipod 10 inches from the barrel on and does absolutely nothing better than the K1 which already has parts in inventory as well as an available 6.5CM upper. The plastic parts for 'weight savings' is also completely hilarious.

I would absolutely LOVE for someone to show me how this was a better idea, and especially cheaper, than the CSASS going to the K1. There's just no fucking way unless H&K put up some total bullshit lowball number that they then plan to 'oops' about when it comes to budget vs actuals on repair and maintenance costs.

But hey, they made that rail so fucking big, that at least it (probably) wont have the barrel start slamming into it after 30 rounds like with the G36.

The only thing they got right is the rear grip.

And for those freaking out about what gun kills scopes; its not indicitive of a certain large frame, its a 'feature' due to the dual recoil impulse a large frame semi auto puts out; it's all of them. I think somehow people just really focused on the SCAR in regards to this.

 

[TheGerman]

Yep, they always fuck it up.

They mandate reflex cans and shit, then when it doesn't work like they imagined in their offices, they bitch KAC fucked up and went with someone overseas.

Why they bought a several thousand dollar rifle and put a goddamn $500 Sig scope on it, I'll never understand. But that's how they roll.

FWIW, I was one of the OG SDM instructors back in the '00's. We had to make do with stock M4's and an ACOG with a Harris bipod. Nothing special. Now they get LESS training and they THROW money at the weapon systems. I had guys consistently making 2MOA hits with M855 at 600m (not all rifles were capable of that mind you, nor all shooters but some could drive it to the limit). Will this rifle extend that to 800m and 1MOA on average? I doubt it and if anything I bet it'll hamper 'em. An SDM still needs to be able to fight like any other 11B and at any moment.

IMO, they'd be best served with the MK20 and probably that 6x ACOG with an RMR for up close shit. Harris and PEQ and call it good.

How would I know? I got an SR25 and the MK20, fondled the MWS and wasn't that impressed, know enough about HK to know they're nowhere worth near what they charge for 'em.

But I think another feature of the HK is that it uses a piston and they wanted a cooler action with less shit blown back in to it. In that case, Mk20. They cost half as much too.

3-10x optic plus RMR 12o clock piggyback thats high enough to use with a PVS14 on is all this needs.

 

[AMGtuned]

Its a replacement for the full size, original M110 in mind, while completely ignoring the M110K1. The M110 had growing pains because the .mil got what it asked for ontop of a bad run of barrels and someone's monkey welding some of the original suppressors. if you compare those two, sure, the H&K is ahead. They somehow just don't want to talk about the K1.

It's kind of like basing your new girlfriend off of your ex wife, yet in the meantime youre already dating a much better girlfriend.

It's heaver, has a weird bolt (or recoil system? forget which), even weirder center of gravity/balance, a giant rail you mount the bipod 10 inches from the barrel on and does absolutely nothing better than the K1 which already has parts in inventory as well as an available 6.5CM upper. The plastic parts for 'weight savings' is also completely hilarious.

I would absolutely LOVE for someone to show me how this was a better idea, and especially cheaper, than the CSASS going to the K1. There's just no fucking way unless H&K put up some total bullshit lowball number that they then plan to 'oops' about when it comes to budget vs actuals on repair and maintenance costs.

But hey, they made that rail so fucking big, that at least it (probably) wont have the barrel start slamming into it after 30 rounds like with the G36.

The only thing they got right is the rear grip.

And for those freaking out about what gun kills scopes; its not indicitive of a certain large frame, its a 'feature' due to the dual recoil impulse a large frame semi auto puts out; it's all of them. I think somehow people just really focused on the SCAR in regards to this.

Always appreciate your input on upper echelon weapon systems. My question is in regards to your recoil impulse comment.

Could it be that the SCAR is more notorious because of its self contained recoil system?

Meaning (for lack of terminology in my previous Q); most other large frame weapon systems have a standard type buffer/buffer spring (albeit different weights), whereas the FN is internal so the weapon can be fired folded.

I wonder if the energy transfer into the buffer tube, takes that shock away from the upper and scope mount. Maybe I'm overthinking it. I run an Aero set that I built personally, with a 20" tube and a Toolkraft NiB BCG. A gen 1 Viper PST lived on it for quite some time with no issues. It is currently parked waiting for some load development and an Athlon. Point is; never had a problem with so much as a zero shift, and my recoil pulse at the shoulder is very minimal.

 

[GUNNER10]

We tested them and before we could finished phase 3, Picatinny made the call and selected the HK over the Scar and MWS based on user feedback from Benning. Forget what happened with the KAC but it didnt make it out of down select. At that point I think I recall them being pretty much even.

Of the Big 4, 308 gas gun companies, I really don't think any one rifle is any better than the others, they all preform and bring certain characteristics to the table.

The KAC was the lightest and smoothest shooting,
The FN is weird, and runs great.
The LMT is just so flexible
The HK is brown

While I do have a scar 17, for my money, I would call it a coin toss between the MWS and SR25

 

[GUNNER10]

Worst 2 words in the English language! Heavy as balls, heavier still when wet, keep in cold and heat while allowing every bug and crawly thing on the planet easy access.

Sorry to derail the thread; but one maybe useful point: military mission is often not the same as my (now civilian) mission, so "grain of salt" that "which military rifle" conversation. I looked at the LMT awhile back and went with a Sig 716 instead. It was cheaper, it was designed as a piston gun, it was set up a way I liked, and I don't see much personal benefit to swapping between 308 and 6.5CM/260. True, it lacked some of what the military wants, but after working out a few bugs, it is perfect for my needs. If it is mission-critical to have a modular platform, have at it. I thought that was a cool feature several years ago with a DTA and ended up getting rid of it because it ended up wearing the go to caliber all the time, since I don't always have time/opportunity to take a zero confirmation shot before taking the needed shot.

I do understand there are those that lack funds/space/spouses/ etc to have several options in a ready-to-use configuration; my "mission critical" might not be your "mission critical". Newton was right, frame of reference matters much!

The sig is solid enough to be in service with India FWIW

 

[GUNNER10]

Its a replacement for the full size, original M110 in mind, while completely ignoring the M110K1. The M110 had growing pains because the .mil got what it asked for ontop of a bad run of barrels and someone's monkey welding some of the original suppressors. if you compare those two, sure, the H&K is ahead. They somehow just don't want to talk about the K1.

It's kind of like basing your new girlfriend off of your ex wife, yet in the meantime youre already dating a much better girlfriend.

It's heaver, has a weird bolt (or recoil system? forget which), even weirder center of gravity/balance, a giant rail you mount the bipod 10 inches from the barrel on and does absolutely nothing better than the K1 which already has parts in inventory as well as an available 6.5CM upper. The plastic parts for 'weight savings' is also completely hilarious.

I would absolutely LOVE for someone to show me how this was a better idea, and especially cheaper, than the CSASS going to the K1. There's just no fucking way unless H&K put up some total bullshit lowball number that they then plan to 'oops' about when it comes to budget vs actuals on repair and maintenance costs.

But hey, they made that rail so fucking big, that at least it (probably) wont have the barrel start slamming into it after 30 rounds like with the G36.

The only thing they got right is the rear grip.

And for those freaking out about what gun kills scopes; its not indicitive of a certain large frame, its a 'feature' due to the dual recoil impulse a large frame semi auto puts out; it's all of them. I think somehow people just really focused on the SCAR in regards to this.

The rifles were performing fairly close, and based of user feedback from Benning, Picitany decided it was not worth the money to complete the final phase of testing thus the HK was selected, and the reason that it has almost taken 4 years to get the rifles down range. The same thing sort of happened with the MHS/P320.

Stuff gets really weird sometimes

 

[LRRPF52]

Any time I see “DMR" and “heavy" in the same sentence, I know whoever is setting the specs is far detached from reality.

Like Strykervet pointed out, DMs needs to be able to shoot/move/communicate like a rifleman, then provide accurate fires and observation/TGT detection when applicable. They are riflemen in the Infantry Squad first, DM’s second. They are organic to the Rifle Squad, which is supposed to be a maneuverable element.

The last thing he needs is a fat beast pig of a rifle. These are all Semi Automatic Sniper Systems, not DMRs, no matter how many come-and-go contract officers label them such. And SASS rifles are mainly good for flat ranges, not carrying and building hasty positions with in the field.

There’s a reason why a “DoD entity” specified a Lightweight Semi Auto Sniper System after decades of trying to make SR-25s fit, and went with the AR-15 frame and a high performance intermediate rifle cartridge in the 6mm ARC.

The original 1950s-early 1960s AR-10s are very Joe-friendly, lightweight rifles. The ammo and mags make for a very heavy basic load due to the penalties of 7.62x51. Clearing rooms and tight spaces with any of the 20” barreled rifles is not ideal and presents risks to the soldiers laden with such rifles. This is also why “The DoD entity” went with 18” guns for 6mm ARC, and still has better ballistics than any of these AR-10/Hk/SCAR SSRs.

In the case of an actual DMR for big Army, they need an Arms Room approach if they’re not going to adopt a new cartridge.

If the NGSW becomes a reality, the new cartridge/rifle/electro-optics will make the current 7.62x51 rifles obsolete in every way. They’re a lot lighter, and have .270 Weatherby ballistics.

 

[JeffLebowski]

The sig is solid enough to be in service with India FWIW

India, huh?

 

[GUNNER10]

India, huh?

Hometown discount

Thank you. Come again

 

[JeffLebowski]

Hometown discount

Thank you. Come again

Please to be kindly doing the needful.

 

[dms416]

And for those freaking out about what gun kills scopes; its not indicitive of a certain large frame, its a 'feature' due to the dual recoil impulse a large frame semi auto puts out; it's all of them. I think somehow people just really focused on the SCAR in regards to this.

But...but....but....SCAR "G forces" and stuff.

I always just assumed part of the equation to the "scope killah" mystique was partially due to some of these optics being shit-ass EoTechs that happened to die on the SCAR. Kinda like if some dude in 2020 gets gunned down committing an armed robbery...he'll be added to the Covid-related deaths stats.