DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures

BigJimFish said:

I still can't believe how well my Vudoo .22 feeds. At this point it has seen many, many thousands of rounds in both a GrayBoe stock + bottom metal and an MDT XRS chassis. With the plastic Vudoo mags it continues to feed all the different ammo (lapua, eley, eley CMP, CCI, aguila) that I regularly use without shaving lead and with only the ocasional accidental rim lock on my part. This is increadibly impressive given the tiny margine for error involved. I remeber how much time you spent prototyping out different magazine designs with tiny changes. It is appreciated. I have a number of center fires that do not feed as consitently and reliably despite the huge margin of error they have to work with. I also have a number of other precision rimfires that feed reliably but shave lead on the regular. The Vudoo is downright impressive in it's performance. Perhaps if I shot up against barriers I would have some issues but I really don't and have had remarkably consistant performance. I plan on picking up one of your new mags in one of the higher capacities when they come out. I really wish other magazine designers spent the same time iterativly testing and improving their product before launch as Mike did. Half the .223rem mags on the market should not have trouble with half the rifles.

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Thank you, Jim, you've definitely been around for the long haul, and I always appreciate your in-depth and right-down-the middle contributions.

The legacy Nylon mags have been my all-time favorite and I'm working things back in that direction with the new stuff starting with the heart of the system; the magazines and components they have to interface to. The actions are designed around all of that.



MB

AndLovingIt said:

To continue the too soon but wondering questions, let’s ask about barrels and your new action. I was out shooting my KIDD supergrade yesterday. Doing some ammo and barrel and suppressor playing. Trying to understand the differences in POI between a 16 inch lightweight barrel and 20 inch bull barrel , with and without a can and using different ammo types. A fun day. The KIDD supergrade allows me to swap barrels in about a minute. Two screws and that’s it. The barrels return to the same indexing and poi if removed and then returned. Neat concept. So, first question, have you considered a similar system? Or any system with quick change barrels. While not always needed, it is nice to be able to quickly change from a lightweight squirrel/critter getter to a heavier, longer, benchrest type barrel.

Second is the breech. I also have a rifle with an ARC CDG action. It has a conical breech. Good/bad concept for a 22LR?

Third, while not the barrel, will the action have a trigger hanger? Pro/con?

Fourth: twist? I am reading of non 1/16 twists having good results.

Oh, and the bull barrel provided the best groups with the ammo I had ( surprise, surprise). The can actually did help the groups tighten up a bit. Precision and accuracy (once zeroed) was consistent with both but the POI shifted about an inch and a half vertically between the two barrels . So needed to adjust zero to keep accurate.

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Yo, Dude, not too soon at all, in fact, right on time.

The one action I'll speak to now has the conventional thread-and-torque interface as its driven specifically to the Rimfire PRS/NRL crowd where other interface types for the barrel could be troublesome. But from the face of the receiver and back shares no DNA with the V-22.

There's another action that has something other than the thread-and-torque interface, but I'm not speaking much of any of them at the moment, so I'm probably not doing a great job of answering your question.

But, as far as a cone breech and rimfire? I. Hate. Them. Although, they have their place. So, I'm working on something a little different....

MB

ma smith said:

The magazine shouldn't need to be setup like the valvetrain clearances on a 4 stroke KTM.
But if that's what'd needed to make these things work, please publish the factory spec and a proper manual.

View attachment 8731071

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Very true, but individual components have to be properly constrained within themselves and designed to be part of a functioning assembly as a whole. To design one thing and expect it to function properly across a wide variety of other things (without proper data) that make up an assembly is the exact source of the frustrations of others.

With what I'm about to release, no one will have to guess at what it means to effectively use what one spent hard earned money on, and without getting bogged down with specs and manuals that won't be available at the times and places it's most needed.

MB

FYI:


MB

Take a close look at the picture below and note the constraints for the assembly as a whole.

Many of you have made highly valid and very accurate points that describe the symptoms of failures to feed and cycle, such as rolling about the mag release, forward tilt of the magazine and a list of other things. All of these things relate to the greater issue.

Now, focus on the feed tower, at the front vertical surface. There's an engagement pad designed into my legacy magazine (that carries over to my new magazines) that interfaces with the magazine well to force the magazine to the rear, loading it more into the release. Now picture if the Limiting Piston was present and one will see there are three points of contact, on the datums.

All of this is achieved with a fixed length magazine release and fixed position magazine catch. No rolling, no tilting, no feeding/cycling issues. In a properly constrained system, pressure can be applied anywhere on the magazine and functionality will not be affected. Period.

Now, relate the slop we've been discussing to the above equation and consider the impact to the intended three points of contact. Look at other magazines and note whether there's an engagement surface for the mag well and/or an ability to load the magazine into the release (another reason forcing the magazine forward with a "width" adjustment is a bad idea).

I'm giving away details here that were hard earned, but the goal is to focus on the fact that feed/cycle issues have been manufactured by a departure from foundational information (sorry if it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse). It's not because of a vertical feed stack (rim-lock is easily avoided) or because there's always been a need for adjustability.

The two DBMs (transparent) are my DDG Standard M5 and the MDT Precision DBM. All-in-all, MDT did a pretty good job with their DBM, but there are a few things that, done in accordance with what I've been saying, would make things a lot easier for the end user.
If one looks at the MDT Adjustable Mag Release, one will think, or at least I did, that the reference line indicates a valid starting point.

However, looking at the transparent overlay of the DDG Fixed Release and the MDT Adjustable with the reference lines coinciding, one actually won't be able to click the magazine in place, so only a small portion of the travel is useful.
So, start with the adjustment all the way down, not with the reference lines in alignment.

MB

Shootin25 said:

Another mag question.
Whats this lil feature pointed out in the photo? Only mag that has it, although of the mags I own, they all feed flawless now in the MDT DBM. View attachment 8731724

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That lil feature is someone's highly misguided guess and applied by hand with a belt sander and it was done at VGW by people that had never built a rifle before. The reason for it was in response to a complaint that Eley wouldn't feed, so of course, the issue had to be the magazine.

I also see in the magazine on the left that someone took a round file to what has been touted as a "feed ramp," but there is purposely no feed ramp in that magazine. Another highly misguided guess to improperly deal with a feeding issue.

MB

A quick update:

The V-Series, DDG V2210, 10 round magazine is in Phase 2 of prototyping and validation.
Once it's through Phase 2, it's eligible for pre-order (if I elect to do one based on level of interest) and officially in production phase, starting with an LRIP, aka, Low-Rate Initial Production.

The LRIP is when I could be looking for a few testers, but typically the testers aren't necessary, but I've not had a shortage of folks eagerly reaching out to help. Following the LRIP for the V2210, it goes to full scale production and prototyping will begin for the V2212, V2215 and tentatively, the V2217.

This process has and will continue to systematically unfold the same way with the DDG X-Series Magazines (RimX compatible) in the same capacities (X2210, X2212, X2215, and tentatively, X2217).

The X-Series magazine will be aesthetically and feature-set identical to the V-Series but with the obvious RimX style feed tower and no need for an extension to increase capacity.

The Adjustable Catch Block in the V-Series and X-Series Magazines is adjusted while the magazine is inserted and there will be a published process that guides one through proper adjustment.

The DDG Standard M5 and M5x DBMs are through Phase 1 prototyping and proceeding to Phase 2 when the V2210 goes to LRIP phase. The DBMs will also be eligible for pre-order when they go to LRIP, if I elect to accept pre-orders. Again, pre-orders are interest driven.

I've held off putting the DDG Test Fixture into the LRIP phase due to the seemingly lower-level interest, which I believe to be associated with the industry slow season (June, July, August). If one is interested in a Test Fixture, shoot me an email at [email protected] and I'll add you to that database, which is what I use to gauge interest and create priorities.

For those that haven't received their Receiver Wrench yet, yours will ship by Thursday this week. There were a few back-to-back unforeseen delays, but those things are now in check and that project is running very smoothly. I appreciate everyone's patience while I dealt with getting them back on track.

The Comprehensive Parts Kits are still rocking along, and as I've stated in the recent past, this project is a huge lift, but it's running well and gets the required daily attention.

If anyone has any questions or needs anything, I'm easily found in this thread, my FB group and/or email and generally respond very quickly. If you don't see a response very quickly, just know I'm either in SolidWorks or working with a vendor and will get back to you asap.


MB

drewh said:

Hi Mike,

With regards to your new action designs, any thoughts of offering a Smaller barrel tenon. I know in the BR world a .750-16 is pretty common, so that barrels in the .850-.900 diameter range can be used. I myself have a 1.20 straight version , and sent it off for testing at Whidden. in a discussion on another forum there was a comment From Whidden that got me curious what your take might be.

"One other piece of info I meant to add- So far, we haven't seen any of the really big barrel contours (like 1.200" straight) shoot super tight groups. I know PRS guys like them for balance and such, and we've tested a handful but not a huge number. This isn't tuner related because we've shot them with and without tuners. It could be just a run of luck, but nobody's averaged a 12.something with a big fat barrel."

Thanks,
Drew

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Yo, Dude,
I've been asked about this before, and I have nothing against the smaller tenon one-way-or-another, but to speak directly to the above statement I'd need to know how "super tight groups" is defined. I know in the BR world, there's at least one guy that argued that the smaller tenon meant that the receiver was stronger, but that's simply not mathematically correct.

But related to the, "regards to your new action designs" part of the question, there is one of the four actions that has a smaller tenon diameter.

MB

LR1845 said:

What do you consider super tight groups and at what distance's?

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Below pics are five and 20 shot groups, 50 yards, from one of my first Gen 1 V-22s with Center X. All rounds are mag fed. The two thrown shots were on me.

These weren't from a 1.2" diameter barrel, so not relevant to Drew's question, but it's what I expect from what I build with the contours I've used over the years without a tuner.

MB

Dead Eye Dick said:

Gosh, Mike, you mean folks actually shoot magazine fed Mike Bush designs and don’t feed them from the magazine.

View attachment 8733379View attachment 8733380

101 yards and 117 yards respectively from the magazine, first shots from a prop, second mod prone.

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Some like to shoot groups with a single shot adapter, so I find myself needing to be specific.

MB

LR1845 said:

@RAVAGE88

First is 10 at 100yds in a 5 to 7 right to left
55 rounds at 100yds
15 rounds at 100yds low round is not part of this groups

These were all shot off a bipod and rear bag.

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Very nice. With a V-22 or something else?

MB

LR1845 said:

@Shootin25 is lead still legal in Cali? LOL!!

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I'd be careful posting pictures of shooting the CA state rock, I'm sure it's a protected species out that way, but really nice group.

MB