DeLane Development Group Rimfire Ventures

[RAVAGE88]

I still can't believe how well my Vudoo .22 feeds. At this point it has seen many, many thousands of rounds in both a GrayBoe stock + bottom metal and an MDT XRS chassis. With the plastic Vudoo mags it continues to feed all the different ammo (lapua, eley, eley CMP, CCI, aguila) that I regularly use without shaving lead and with only the ocasional accidental rim lock on my part. This is increadibly impressive given the tiny margine for error involved. I remeber how much time you spent prototyping out different magazine designs with tiny changes. It is appreciated. I have a number of center fires that do not feed as consitently and reliably despite the huge margin of error they have to work with. I also have a number of other precision rimfires that feed reliably but shave lead on the regular. The Vudoo is downright impressive in it's performance. Perhaps if I shot up against barriers I would have some issues but I really don't and have had remarkably consistant performance. I plan on picking up one of your new mags in one of the higher capacities when they come out. I really wish other magazine designers spent the same time iterativly testing and improving their product before launch as Mike did. Half the .223rem mags on the market should not have trouble with half the rifles.

Thank you, Jim, you've definitely been around for the long haul, and I always appreciate your in-depth and right-down-the middle contributions.

The legacy Nylon mags have been my all-time favorite and I'm working things back in that direction with the new stuff starting with the heart of the system; the magazines and components they have to interface to. The actions then get design around all of that.



MB

 

[Emerson0311]

Thank you, Sir, your words are very humbling.

I've not openly shared as much or in the way I have of late, but I've felt it has been important to bring down a level of noted frustrations. This community is dear to me, so I've been compelled to share at a higher technical level and approach it differently, although at the risk of unsettling some, which isn't the intent at all. But the data is the data, and the community appears to enjoy contributing and wants to learn and understand.

MB

The Rimfire users that have spent the $$$ and time on the range already know about the common issues. It’s nice to see a builder being straightforward about them.

 

[ma smith]

The magazine shouldn't need to be setup like the valvetrain clearances on a 4 stroke KTM.
But if that's what'd needed to make these things work, please publish the factory spec and a proper manual.

 

[RAVAGE88]

To continue the too soon but wondering questions, let’s ask about barrels and your new action. I was out shooting my KIDD supergrade yesterday. Doing some ammo and barrel and suppressor playing. Trying to understand the differences in POI between a 16 inch lightweight barrel and 20 inch bull barrel , with and without a can and using different ammo types. A fun day. The KIDD supergrade allows me to swap barrels in about a minute. Two screws and that’s it. The barrels return to the same indexing and poi if removed and then returned. Neat concept. So, first question, have you considered a similar system? Or any system with quick change barrels. While not always needed, it is nice to be able to quickly change from a lightweight squirrel/critter getter to a heavier, longer, benchrest type barrel.

Second is the breech. I also have a rifle with an ARC CDG action. It has a conical breech. Good/bad concept for a 22LR?

Third, while not the barrel, will the action have a trigger hanger? Pro/con?

Fourth: twist? I am reading of non 1/16 twists having good results.

Oh, and the bull barrel provided the best groups with the ammo I had ( surprise, surprise). The can actually did help the groups tighten up a bit. Precision and accuracy (once zeroed) was consistent with both but the POI shifted about an inch and a half vertically between the two barrels . So needed to adjust zero to keep accurate.

Yo, Dude, not too soon at all, in fact, right on time.

The one action I'll speak to now has the conventional thread-and-torque interface as its driven specifically to the Rimfire PRS/NRL crowd where other interface types for the barrel could be troublesome. But from the face of the receiver and back shares no DNA with the V-22.

There's another action that has something other than the thread-and-torque interface, but I'm not speaking much of any of them at the moment, so I'm probably not doing a great job of answering your question.

But, as far as a cone breech and rimfire? I. Hate. Them. Although, they have their place. So, I'm working on something a little different....

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

The magazine shouldn't need to be setup like the valvetrain clearances on a 4 stroke KTM.
But if that's what'd needed to make these things work, please publish the factory spec and a proper manual.

View attachment 8731071

Very true, but individual components have to be properly constrained within themselves and designed to be part of a functioning assembly as a whole. To design one thing and expect it to function properly across a wide variety of other things (without proper data) that make up an assembly is the exact source of the frustrations of others.

With what I'm about to release, no one will have to guess at what it means to effectively use what one spent hard earned money on, and without getting bogged down with specs and manuals that won't be available at the times and places it's most needed.

MB

 

[RAVAGE88]

FYI:

Vudoo 360 in Acc Elite Mag Latch Position Pic Request

For the past 2 years, I ran my Vudoo in an XLR Envy Pro, and it ran like a sewing machine. I have shot two matches recently after putting it into an ACC Elite and have had feeding issues. on about 40% of my stages. I have a barricade stop, so it is not pressure on the mag. Can someone that...

www.snipershide.com

MB

 

[AndLovingIt]

But, as far as a cone breech and rimfire? I. Hate. Them.

Don’t hold back, be blunt. lol.

So I guess we probably won’t see a cdg rimfire version.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Take a close look at the picture below and note the constraints for the assembly as a whole.

Many of you have made highly valid and very accurate points that describe the symptoms of failures to feed and cycle, such as rolling about the mag release, forward tilt of the magazine and a list of other things. All of these things relate to the greater issue.

Now, focus on the feed tower, at the front vertical surface. There's an engagement pad designed into my legacy magazine (that carries over to my new magazines) that interfaces with the magazine well to force the magazine to the rear, loading it more into the release. Now picture if the Limiting Piston was present and one will see there are three points of contact, on the datums.

All of this is achieved with a fixed length magazine release and fixed position magazine catch. No rolling, no tilting, no feeding/cycling issues. In a properly constrained system, pressure can be applied anywhere on the magazine and functionality will not be affected. Period.

Now, relate the slop we've been discussing to the above equation and consider the impact to the intended three points of contact. Look at other magazines and note whether there's an engagement surface for the mag well and/or an ability to load the magazine into the release (another reason forcing the magazine forward with a "width" adjustment is a bad idea).

I'm giving away details here that were hard earned, but the goal is to focus on the fact that feed/cycle issues have been manufactured by a departure from foundational information (sorry if it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse). It's not because of a vertical feed stack (rim-lock is easily avoided) or because there's always been a need for adjustability.

The two DBMs (transparent) are my DDG Standard M5 and the MDT Precision DBM. All-in-all, MDT did a pretty good job with their DBM, but there are a few things that, done in accordance with what I've been saying, would make things a lot easier for the end user.
If one looks at the MDT Adjustable Mag Release, one will think, or at least I did, that the reference line indicates a valid starting point.

However, looking at the transparent overlay of the DDG Fixed Release and the MDT Adjustable with the reference lines coinciding, one actually won't be able to click the magazine in place, so only a small portion of the travel is useful.
So, start with the adjustment all the way down, not with the reference lines in alignment.

MB

 

[Shootin25]

Another mag question.
Whats this lil feature pointed out in the photo? Only mag that has it, although of the mags I own, they all feed flawless now in the MDT DBM.

 

[RAVAGE88]

Another mag question.
Whats this lil feature pointed out in the photo? Only mag that has it, although of the mags I own, they all feed flawless now in the MDT DBM. View attachment 8731724

That lil feature is someone's highly misguided guess and applied by hand with a belt sander and it was done at VGW by people that had never built a rifle before. The reason for it was in response to a complaint that Eley wouldn't feed, so of course, the issue had to be the magazine.

I also see in the magazine on the left that someone took a round file to what has been touted as a "feed ramp," but there is purposely no feed ramp in that magazine. Another highly misguided guess to improperly deal with a feeding issue.

MB