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✪ ✪ ✪ Counter-Narrative Thread - Truth and Better Ideas - Deprogramming the Left ✪ ✪ ✪

Yo, can we keep the insults and arguing amongst ourselves to a minimum, please? I know it's the Pit, but there's plenty of other threads to call each other shart-gargling fucksticks and challenge each other to a pistol duel on the front lawn at noon...
Not sure if serious...
 
when i fart, dust comes out.
basically this is what i am saying (that they will invent an enemy if they can't create one by killing innocents).
without an enemy to fight, they can't get funding and get away with all the shit they do "to protect us".
Good Whiskey will cure that dust problem.
 
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Debate the leftists?
LMAO

Is that even a thing ?
 
Look, I'm sorry but your grasp of money is tenuous at best. You are mixing a bunch of metaphors to try to make a point. I get the point, and I don't necessarily disagree that UBI is untenable given the political realities in which we find ourselves, but that has basically nothing to do with what you posted here about money. Since this is literally what I have done my entire career, I will try to help you out. I don't mean to be a dick, I am literally trying to help.

1. Yes, money is anything that can be exchanged for other goods. It is a bridge in the barter system. Without money if you wanted to turn your corn into my cows, you would have had to find people to make all of the various trades until you had turned your corn into what I wanted in exchange for my cows, now we use money.

2. Yes, fiat money is money we have all agreed to use as currency without any "intrinsic" value as a commodity itself. But it is a little more complicated than that. For example, in a gold economy, you would have to understand that only part of the value of gold qua gold would be in it's "intrinsic" value, and the rest in its suitability as a trading medium. So even hard currencies are not inextricably linked from their "intrinsic" value. That is a fine, but unimportant point.

3. But let's assume for a moment that we have a dual currency economy. Fiat dollars and gold. UBI payments could be in either, right? So UBI payments would not, by definition, be fiat currency. You are trying to use fiat currency first as a negative (it isn't) and then link it to UBI (it isn't) to make UBI a negative (it might be, but not because of that.)

4. The car argument is an interesting one to choose. It isn't necessarily true that the car dealer would be able to raise his prices simply because of the larger amount of currency in circulation. If the demand produced by that currency was dedicated to cars, sure, but there is no reason to think that would be the case, that the demand would go to cars or would go equally to all goods and services. There is theoretical reason to believe we would see inflation, but there is significant reason to think we should have seen inflation throughout at least the last two decades, but the majority of that inflation has been in asset values (stock prices rising) while consumer inflation has been tame. I still believe in the neoclassical understanding of inflation, but it gets harder to do so yearly.

5. Money is in no way related to sweat equity. Fiat or otherwise. Assume, again for argument, that all you did all day was sit on your porch and drink tea. Nice life, not much sweat. Now, assume you got your UBI delivered in cash, a pallet like Obama did for Iran. That is really no different than if you went down to the river and were washing your toes, and a big gold rock washed up and you picked it up. It is still money, still no sweat equity. The two are unrelated, and understanding that there is no moral value to money is something that is hard for people to take, on both sides. It simply is. In the real world, of course, neither happens, but there is still no correlation between sweat and wealth. There is a correlation between utility and wealth. Utility is far less of a moral issue than labor. It is the fundamental Marxist error.

6. There is no quesiton that welfare produces a disincentive to work. It creates a lot of perverse incentives. Any time the government barges into the markets you will get perverse incentives. The beauty of UBI, as understood by Friedman which is more like a universal tax credit, is that it doesn't have that disincentive. Never is marginal labor penalized.

So, again, I agree that UBI is probably untenable because of the political realities surrounding it. That is the truth when it comes to a lot of things. Social programs are much easier to pay for and justify without mass immigration as well, but there are issues there on both sides. In the long run I am not sure I can agree with Franklin there because I don't see it as a moral issue as much as an economic one. I would rather do what needs to be done with the least incursion into the market possible, because the true costs to society in disrupting economic signals through government intrusion is higher than the cost of marginally too many direct transfer payments.

Sorry this is going to be light on source reference but it is an example of why the post was made.

The OP wants a war chest of common sense ammunition to use when someone espouses an idea counter to conservative thought....

Im not saying @Choid is a full on Communist but his postings indicate that he has not yet aged beyond his idea of "Liberal heart" to gain "Conservative brains".


1. Seems we have both grasped the same understanding.

2. Ditto.

3. We dont have a currency system backed by a linked/defined commodity as when a note was expected to be backed by the gold reserve.

We print money. Its only value is based on faith in the stability of United States government and most importantly, the expectation its people are productive. Foreign nations give value to our money based on the idea we are a lawful, viable Republic and the creativity and capacity of our system in relation to their own or alternatives. We also benefit from Bretton Woods in that we made our money the reserve currency/petro dollar.

Locally though the value of our dollar is set by the exchange of what you get in goods and services. A plumber may set the value of his sweat equity at $100/hr. You can call the plumbers labor "utility". Jeremy Bentham had his points but he didnt really take into account the idea of the individual. He was about promoting the good for the greatest while not concerned with the pain it brought to the fewer....


Stick to Locke and Jefferson for philosophy.

After busting his balls installing a sink and toilet the plumber has imbued that printed cash the home owner hands him for his labors with value. The home owners dollars have value/utility based on the exchange made to get them. Maybe they sold a product or performed labor. The plumber can than take 4 hrs of his now valued paper and exchange it at Dicks for a Remington 700 valued at $395 for raw materials, labor and all costs getting it to the store.

What value does UBI impart to the money hot off the press?

If its just to get money in the economy I argue a tax cut is better at doing that. Let the plumber spend his money.

4. The car was chosen as a random example. UBI will do the same to milk as it does cars. It has been happening since Aug. 15, 1971.

Schemes like UBI will only accelerate it marginally. Sure UBI will provide more dollars but those valueless dollars mean nothing. Initially the market recognizes increased demand due the flood of UBI. Prices than rise. The UBI person finds themselves in the same place they were previously. Producers still fuel the market with their productivity and dollars that their efforts have imbued a value to. Going back to cars even without UBI what has happened to their value? Is an F150 really that complex that an average price is $40K?

5. You are making no sense.

The person getting UBI delivered on his porch is getting junk mail....its worth the recycle bin. Gold is a scarce commodity. I find a nugget it in the river there are many that desire it either for its scarcity or as a production material. Diamonds are plenty but control/monopoly has imbued them false value.

UBI dollars will neither be scarce or have other value other than that they are "counterfeits" of the dollars the plumber imbues with value. You actually devalue the plumbers dollars. He will now increase the value of his work to $120/hr and his Dicks Remington is $480 now - still 4 hours of his sweat, oh excuse me added utility, and eventually out of reach of Mr UBI unless the government increases his UBI.....nice cycle.

Inflation has been a fact over the last decade. From the perspective of Moms basement it may not be apparent but buying groceries, paying for energy, price of common goods it is apparent there is inflation.

Our govt inflation indexes don't count many of the things we actually use and they miss the rise.


Govt policy not anything to do with the market is causing the energy increase. Trump gave me a raise with $2.00 gas. Up $.40 in my area over the last month. I expect $5/gallon in three years. Thats money out of the consumer goods economy into the energy economy.

The inflation in stock values is because all other alternatives have been removed from us. Traditional safe investing which most Americans preferred, at their own financial crippling, left right after 2008 when the Fed killed the value of saving. People now invest in stocks because 5% savings interest and 7% CDs dont exist.

In 2008 with an ING account set up for my home improvement money those were typical rates. My loan sitting in the bank gained enough interest every month to buy better fixtures and appliances than planned. Granted my loan rate was also 6.25%. Now sitting in the bank at 1% it would be a daily net loss.

This was a kiss to Wall Street at the cost of putting seniors/fixed income people in jeopardy. There is a real bubble in 401Ks that will be milked by the Titans one of these days. I only hope that I am in a chair when the music stops.

The only other safe harbor investment has been housing. 3% rates have driven housing prices up beyond the market value controls of location and scarcity (supply/demand). The result of that is soon no young family will be able to afford a home. That's okay because we are supposed to live in the Titan idea of a beehive and own nothing.

6. In Finland instead of finding that UBI increased the labor pool as they had hoped it didn't.

People didn't use their UBI to improve themselves, get training for a better job, get childcare so they could enter the work force. I read reports some of them wrote poetry or took the money to allow them to hang out and paint. That was what people did in the Soviet Union and their economy suffered from shortage and stagnation while being considered a world super power.

Commies always base their claims on environments that don't exist and they deny human nature.

They say "Socialism/communism works if these factors are in place....." but those factors are not naturally in place and do not work in the real world.

Communism only works in a limited population of homogeneous people faced with an external existential threat. Remove any of that and it fails.

Too many people you likely create surplus and people become capitalist, labor specializes.

Get people with varied life goals than they want freedom to do as they please and the socialism machine suffers the lack of drones to keep it running. The drones become upset seeing others leaving more work for them, eventually the working drones stop working.

Without an existential threat people refuse to subvert their individual goals for the betterment of the community.

Its human nature.

Socialism/communism is counter to thousands of years of understanding basic human nature.

Fuck even commie Bernie failed the test....


The genius of our Declaration of Independence/Constitution is that they are completely built upon the bedrock of human nature and protecting against the worst aspects of it.

Closing....

UBI/socialism/communism is untenable because it is an affront to human nature. It tries to force the stream to flow uphill.

Capitalisms harnessing of human nature will lead to abuses but it ensures constant improvement, pressure to provide the most utility at the lowest cost to the greatest extent possible. A Republic of laws would hold those accountable that abuse the system. Political malfeasance interferes with the mechanisms of accountability.

The socialist/communist puts their policies to work making assumptions about the community that don't exist. It denies the basic needs/desires of a modern western society and your general human regardless of their culture. Aesops simple observations were astute and universal.

Only un-natural conditions, conditions of a dystopian nature, allow the ideas of the socialist/communist to work. I don't want to live in that world. I experienced a taste of it living in the Soviet Union. It is the last 11 months on steroids.

And really, you want to deny Ben Franklin? A man that amongst peers of high genius he stood out.......


If Franklin was wrong why these signs....Science!

1610971737467.png


1610971794966.png


1610971708540.png
 
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Resources to combat AntiGun BS:












Just a few to get you started. These are going to be needed over the next few years I believe. @HiDesertELR


My favorite 2A reference....


A leather bound pocket reference of gold.

The other books in the "Primer" series are equally full of source material.

They are like Gideon bibles of the Republic.


 
If you give someone something for nothing, say a guaranteed ' to

Prove me wrong..........
that's the brilliance from the left. they buy their votes and loyalty with taxpayer dollars. they always have another 'program' to offer the incapable or unwilling(free healthcare, education, minimum wage, guaranteed income). the right offers the chance for human dignity resulting from good, hard work. sadly, the choice is too easy for too many. we lose almost every time, and the odds are only getting longer.
 
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She is proof positive that an Ivy League education isn't worth the paper it's written on.

But its good indoctrination and marks you as "one of the chosen".

I wouldnt trade my early 90s (just prior to full on indoctrination) education for anything.

I really am thankful for the expansive set of ideas my professors exposed me to while for the most part leaving me unaware of what their personal positions were.

and the school back than was considered "liberal".

Today it is a commie gulag.
 
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Here are some more resources for this thread





http://www.repfrankryan.com/News/18754/Latest-News/PA-Lawmakers-Numbers-Don’t-Add-Up,-Certification-of-Presidential-Results-Premature-and-In-Error




And on, and on, and on......
 
Everything starts at the elementary school level. You must break the Teachers Union first and foremost. Bring back Civics classes, teach the REAL history of the USA and the world. Bring back shop classes and home economics.

For those kids that drop out of school after the age of 16, they must get a job with their local governments. I'd prefer to see them in a street cleaning job or some neighborhood beautification program. No free rides for these people.

If these drop outs can't get a job, they must enlist in the military for a minimum of 4 years.

These kids need to learn how to be a human who can be productive in his or hers adult life.

Remove all degrees at the university level that don't DIRECTLY instruct the student on a path to getting a job. No more stupid degrees. They ALL must pass their classes with at least a C level or above grade. We need to have graduates who know, not no.

Bring back the old hunter's and firearms safety course. Ideally, it should be taught in elementary school, but I'm okay at any grade level.

Automatic military service, at least boot camp and another 6 months, but I'd prefer 2 years.

I'm sure I left out other things but this would be a start.

PS Welfare should only be used to help folks out of a tough spot, it's not meant and should not be used as a career alternative. No 2nd and 3rd generations of welfare recipience.
 
that's the brilliance from the left. they buy their votes and loyalty with taxpayer dollars. they always have another 'program' to offer the incapable or unwilling(free healthcare, education, minimum wage, guaranteed income). the right offers the chance for human dignity resulting from good, hard work. sadly, the choice is too easy for too many. we lose almost every time, and the odds are only getting longer.

A related issue is that the tax payer always holds the bag.

Say a legislature makes an unConstitutional law.

In order to repeal it the tax payer has to pay for the trial.

If they win and there are damages the tax payer pays the damages.

Govt wants to strip LEO of qualified immunity but that of politicians is untouchable.

If we retain any semblance of a Republic long enough Gen Flynn and Carter Page will be awarded many millions.

Will their persecutors pay that from their personal account?

No. We the equally aggrieved will have our tax takings pay it.

How does CATO/The Atlantic write this shit and make the assumption QI only applies to LEO?



Lets see Congress repeal QI because the preamble of the legislation is going to include the words "......excepting elected politicians........." and they will be exposed.

It is not LEO that are the biggest benefactors of QI it is politicians.

In the case of LEO QI only applies to lawful activity.

For politicians QI seems to apply to all of their activity.
 
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I also believe that Congress should not receive any benefits that is superior to the average government employee. I also believe there should be NO retirement after they leave Congress. It was their choice to run for office as a volunteer to the country.
 
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Everything starts at the elementary school level. You must break the Teachers Union first and foremost. Bring back Civics classes, teach the REAL history of the USA and the world. Bring back shop classes and home economics.

For those kids that drop out of school after the age of 16, they must get a job with their local governments. I'd prefer to see them in a street cleaning job or some neighborhood beautification program. No free rides for these people.

If these drop outs can't get a job, they must enlist in the military for a minimum of 4 years.

These kids need to learn how to be a human who can be productive in his or hers adult life.

Remove all degrees at the university level that don't DIRECTLY instruct the student on a path to getting a job. No more stupid degrees. They ALL must pass their classes with at least a C level or above grade. We need to have graduates who know, not no.

Bring back the old hunter's and firearms safety course. Ideally, it should be taught in elementary school, but I'm okay at any grade level.

Automatic military service, at least boot camp and another 6 months, but I'd prefer 2 years.

I'm sure I left out other things but this would be a start.

PS Welfare should only be used to help folks out of a tough spot, it's not meant and should not be used as a career alternative. No 2nd and 3rd generations of welfare recipience.

Trumps 1775 Project would have been a good start.

Now we are going to get NY Times 1620 BS.
 
Europeans who immigrated to Texas in the early 1800's tried communism/socialism in communities in Hill Country. The settlers/founders of Fredericksburg, Boerne, Comfort, and some others in that area were an inspiration to Marx who obviously co-wrote the Communist Manifesto.

Spoiler: all the socialism experiments failed.

 
Here are some more resources for this thread





http://www.repfrankryan.com/News/18754/Latest-News/PA-Lawmakers-Numbers-Don’t-Add-Up,-Certification-of-Presidential-Results-Premature-and-In-Error




And on, and on, and on......
Anyone have access to "the Binder" that Congress got on Jan 6?
 
As some of you know from the Prayer thread, my mom was recently in the hospital. She grew up in Hitler pre - and WWII Germany and came here when she was 24, and was naturalized in the early 70's. As I was going through her wallet to get her insurance stuff for the hospital, I found her ORIGINAL copy of the Constitution she got with her naturalization that she has been carrying around all these years... I should also mentioned she fasted & prayer for 3 days in 2016 that HRC wouldn't win...
 
As some of you know from the Prayer thread, my mom was recently in the hospital. She grew up in Hitler pre - and WWII Germany and came here when she was 24, and was naturalized in the early 70's. As I was going through her wallet to get her insurance stuff for the hospital, I found her ORIGINAL copy of the Constitution she got with her naturalization that she has been carrying around all these years... I should also mentioned she fasted & prayer for 3 days in 2016 that HRC wouldn't win...
A lot of folks from that era knew of the threat and its' consequences if ignored. In my own family, there have been members who have escaped the commies and made it to this country. That's how I know what a viper this whole socialist/communist lie is and I'm always amazed at the useful idiots who drink this kool aid.

An earlier post showed a lot of stats that people should look at. With all due respect, I'm afraid that that just will not work in today's world. Unfortunately, people have become wired to video...............Remember the movie series Why We Fight with Frank Capra, and those awful concentration camp films that really shocked the WWII generation? ( St. Matthews Passion)...... I'm glad I got to see those in H.S., though at the time they were highly shocking to a virgin to the ways of the world.

I guess what we are looking at is the willful ignorance of too many in this country that have taken the wealth and bounty for granted. I'm just hoping will have a means of communicating to these dopes what exactly they can expect in the next few months and years. Lord knows they have seen it, or should have seen it as it has played out in other countries.

Man's inhumanity to Man has numerous examples for those willing to look.
 
FWIW, UBI is preferable to a lot of other social programs. Milton Friedman wrote a lot about this and why. It is problematic when it is in addition to other programs, but by itself it shouldn't be so quickly discarded.
Tyranny of The Status Quo...great read
 
Great idea for this thread.

I'll offer a bit of a different take, and say that we can win more of the national debate/discussion by HOW we argue vs what we are arguing with. Remembering that winning a debate isn't about crushing the person you are debating, it's about winning over people in the crowd who are on the fence.

Jordan Peterson highlights the value of "steel manning" someone's argument, i.e, when you are in a discussion and each side creates space for the other to summarize the opposing view point. When I am afforded this in daily conversations, I find myself winning over more people than not.

"...most people's arguments are unbelievably shallow, and they aren't arguments at all really, they are just perceptual biases.."

 
You can defeat the whole progressive leftist narrative and agenda with nothing but Malcom X and MLKjr life works.

I can see why they killed them.
 
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Great idea for this thread.

I'll offer a bit of a different take, and say that we can win more of the national debate/discussion by HOW we argue vs what we are arguing with. Remembering that winning a debate isn't about crushing the person you are debating, it's about winning over people in the crowd who are on the fence.

Jordan Peterson highlights the value of "steel manning" someone's argument, i.e, when you are in a discussion and each side creates space for the other to summarize the opposing view point. When I am afforded this in daily conversations, I find myself winning over more people than not.

"...most people's arguments are unbelievably shallow, and they aren't arguments at all really, they are just perceptual biases.."


EXACTLY! Thanks for that post, something we can use to win these discussions... words and ideas matter, but your delivery is what wins over the hearts and minds.
 
As some of you know from the Prayer thread, my mom was recently in the hospital. She grew up in Hitler pre - and WWII Germany and came here when she was 24, and was naturalized in the early 70's. As I was going through her wallet to get her insurance stuff for the hospital, I found her ORIGINAL copy of the Constitution she got with her naturalization that she has been carrying around all these years... I should also mentioned she fasted & prayer for 3 days in 2016 that HRC wouldn't win...
She seems like a tough woman. She's stronger than many here on this forum. I can't imagine what she went through while in Germany. God Bless and my prayers continue for her.
 
Sorry this is going to be light on source reference but it is an example of why the post was made.

The OP wants a war chest of common sense ammunition to use when someone espouses an idea counter to conservative thought....

Im not saying @Choid is a full on Communist but his postings indicate that he has not yet aged beyond his idea of "Liberal heart" to gain "Conservative brains".


1. Seems we have both grasped the same understanding.

2. Ditto.

3. We dont have a currency system backed by a linked/defined commodity as when a note was expected to be backed by the gold reserve.

We print money. Its only value is based on faith in the stability of United States government and most importantly, the expectation its people are productive. Foreign nations give value to our money based on the idea we are a lawful, viable Republic and the creativity and capacity of our system in relation to their own or alternatives. We also benefit from Bretton Woods in that we made our money the reserve currency/petro dollar.

Locally though the value of our dollar is set by the exchange of what you get in goods and services. A plumber may set the value of his sweat equity at $100/hr. You can call the plumbers labor "utility". Jeremy Bentham had his points but he didnt really take into account the idea of the individual. He was about promoting the good for the greatest while not concerned with the pain it brought to the fewer....


Stick to Locke and Jefferson for philosophy.

After busting his balls installing a sink and toilet the plumber has imbued that printed cash the home owner hands him for his labors with value. The home owners dollars have value/utility based on the exchange made to get them. Maybe they sold a product or performed labor. The plumber can than take 4 hrs of his now valued paper and exchange it at Dicks for a Remington 700 valued at $395 for raw materials, labor and all costs getting it to the store.

What value does UBI impart to the money hot off the press?

If its just to get money in the economy I argue a tax cut is better at doing that. Let the plumber spend his money.

4. The car was chosen as a random example. UBI will do the same to milk as it does cars. It has been happening since Aug. 15, 1971.

Schemes like UBI will only accelerate it marginally. Sure UBI will provide more dollars but those valueless dollars mean nothing. Initially the market recognizes increased demand due the flood of UBI. Prices than rise. The UBI person finds themselves in the same place they were previously. Producers still fuel the market with their productivity and dollars that their efforts have imbued a value to. Going back to cars even without UBI what has happened to their value? Is an F150 really that complex that an average price is $40K?

5. You are making no sense.

The person getting UBI delivered on his porch is getting junk mail....its worth the recycle bin. Gold is a scarce commodity. I find a nugget it in the river there are many that desire it either for its scarcity or as a production material. Diamonds are plenty but control/monopoly has imbued them false value.

UBI dollars will neither be scarce or have other value other than that they are "counterfeits" of the dollars the plumber imbues with value. You actually devalue the plumbers dollars. He will now increase the value of his work to $120/hr and his Dicks Remington is $480 now - still 4 hours of his sweat, oh excuse me added utility, and eventually out of reach of Mr UBI unless the government increases his UBI.....nice cycle.

Inflation has been a fact over the last decade. From the perspective of Moms basement it may not be apparent but buying groceries, paying for energy, price of common goods it is apparent there is inflation.

Our govt inflation indexes don't count many of the things we actually use and they miss the rise.


Govt policy not anything to do with the market is causing the energy increase. Trump gave me a raise with $2.00 gas. Up $.40 in my area over the last month. I expect $5/gallon in three years. Thats money out of the consumer goods economy into the energy economy.

The inflation in stock values is because all other alternatives have been removed from us. Traditional safe investing which most Americans preferred, at their own financial crippling, left right after 2008 when the Fed killed the value of saving. People now invest in stocks because 5% savings interest and 7% CDs dont exist.

In 2008 with an ING account set up for my home improvement money those were typical rates. My loan sitting in the bank gained enough interest every month to buy better fixtures and appliances than planned. Granted my loan rate was also 6.25%. Now sitting in the bank at 1% it would be a daily net loss.

This was a kiss to Wall Street at the cost of putting seniors/fixed income people in jeopardy. There is a real bubble in 401Ks that will be milked by the Titans one of these days. I only hope that I am in a chair when the music stops.

The only other safe harbor investment has been housing. 3% rates have driven housing prices up beyond the market value controls of location and scarcity (supply/demand). The result of that is soon no young family will be able to afford a home. That's okay because we are supposed to live in the Titan idea of a beehive and own nothing.

6. In Finland instead of finding that UBI increased the labor pool as they had hoped it didn't.

People didn't use their UBI to improve themselves, get training for a better job, get childcare so they could enter the work force. I read reports some of them wrote poetry or took the money to allow them to hang out and paint. That was what people did in the Soviet Union and their economy suffered from shortage and stagnation while being considered a world super power.

Commies always base their claims on environments that don't exist and they deny human nature.

They say "Socialism/communism works if these factors are in place....." but those factors are not naturally in place and do not work in the real world.

Communism only works in a limited population of homogeneous people faced with an external existential threat. Remove any of that and it fails.

Too many people you likely create surplus and people become capitalist, labor specializes.

Get people with varied life goals than they want freedom to do as they please and the socialism machine suffers the lack of drones to keep it running. The drones become upset seeing others leaving more work for them, eventually the working drones stop working.

Without an existential threat people refuse to subvert their individual goals for the betterment of the community.

Its human nature.

Socialism/communism is counter to thousands of years of understanding basic human nature.

Fuck even commie Bernie failed the test....


The genius of our Declaration of Independence/Constitution is that they are completely built upon the bedrock of human nature and protecting against the worst aspects of it.

Closing....

UBI/socialism/communism is untenable because it is an affront to human nature. It tries to force the stream to flow uphill.

Capitalisms harnessing of human nature will lead to abuses but it ensures constant improvement, pressure to provide the most utility at the lowest cost to the greatest extent possible. A Republic of laws would hold those accountable that abuse the system. Political malfeasance interferes with the mechanisms of accountability.

The socialist/communist puts their policies to work making assumptions about the community that don't exist. It denies the basic needs/desires of a modern western society and your general human regardless of their culture. Aesops simple observations were astute and universal.

Only un-natural conditions, conditions of a dystopian nature, allow the ideas of the socialist/communist to work. I don't want to live in that world. I experienced a taste of it living in the Soviet Union. It is the last 11 months on steroids.

And really, you want to deny Ben Franklin? A man that amongst peers of high genius he stood out.......


If Franklin was wrong why these signs....Science!

View attachment 7530912

View attachment 7530913

View attachment 7530911
This argument is outside of the point of the thread, so I will refrain from a detailed response, but literally everything in your post evinces either a lack of familiarity with basic concepts in economics or a terrible deficit in reading comprehension. Carry on.
 
Europeans who immigrated to Texas in the early 1800's tried communism/socialism in communities in Hill Country. The settlers/founders of Fredericksburg, Boerne, Comfort, and some others in that area were an inspiration to Marx who obviously co-wrote the Communist Manifesto.

Spoiler: all the socialism experiments failed.



Utopian Movement in Massachusetts...


I often drive by the bones of these failed movements....neat history now preserved by capitalism.

Shakers probably could have made it 'cept for that celibacy clause.
 
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This argument is outside of the point of the thread, so I will refrain from a detailed response, but literally everything in your post evinces either a lack of familiarity with basic concepts in economics or a terrible deficit in reading comprehension. Carry on.
Please stop with the snark.
 
...but its easier than a response.
Do you really want me to respond to you? I am happy to, but he had asked not to have an argument. I guess you do, so here goes....
 
Sorry this is going to be light on source reference but it is an example of why the post was made.

The OP wants a war chest of common sense ammunition to use when someone espouses an idea counter to conservative thought....

Im not saying @Choid is a full on Communist but his postings indicate that he has not yet aged beyond his idea of "Liberal heart" to gain "Conservative brains".


1. Seems we have both grasped the same understanding.

2. Ditto.

3. We dont have a currency system backed by a linked/defined commodity as when a note was expected to be backed by the gold reserve.

We print money. Its only value is based on faith in the stability of United States government and most importantly, the expectation its people are productive. Foreign nations give value to our money based on the idea we are a lawful, viable Republic and the creativity and capacity of our system in relation to their own or alternatives. We also benefit from Bretton Woods in that we made our money the reserve currency/petro dollar.

Locally though the value of our dollar is set by the exchange of what you get in goods and services. A plumber may set the value of his sweat equity at $100/hr. You can call the plumbers labor "utility". Jeremy Bentham had his points but he didnt really take into account the idea of the individual. He was about promoting the good for the greatest while not concerned with the pain it brought to the fewer....


Stick to Locke and Jefferson for philosophy.

After busting his balls installing a sink and toilet the plumber has imbued that printed cash the home owner hands him for his labors with value. The home owners dollars have value/utility based on the exchange made to get them. Maybe they sold a product or performed labor. The plumber can than take 4 hrs of his now valued paper and exchange it at Dicks for a Remington 700 valued at $395 for raw materials, labor and all costs getting it to the store.

What value does UBI impart to the money hot off the press?

If its just to get money in the economy I argue a tax cut is better at doing that. Let the plumber spend his money.

4. The car was chosen as a random example. UBI will do the same to milk as it does cars. It has been happening since Aug. 15, 1971.

Schemes like UBI will only accelerate it marginally. Sure UBI will provide more dollars but those valueless dollars mean nothing. Initially the market recognizes increased demand due the flood of UBI. Prices than rise. The UBI person finds themselves in the same place they were previously. Producers still fuel the market with their productivity and dollars that their efforts have imbued a value to. Going back to cars even without UBI what has happened to their value? Is an F150 really that complex that an average price is $40K?

5. You are making no sense.

The person getting UBI delivered on his porch is getting junk mail....its worth the recycle bin. Gold is a scarce commodity. I find a nugget it in the river there are many that desire it either for its scarcity or as a production material. Diamonds are plenty but control/monopoly has imbued them false value.

UBI dollars will neither be scarce or have other value other than that they are "counterfeits" of the dollars the plumber imbues with value. You actually devalue the plumbers dollars. He will now increase the value of his work to $120/hr and his Dicks Remington is $480 now - still 4 hours of his sweat, oh excuse me added utility, and eventually out of reach of Mr UBI unless the government increases his UBI.....nice cycle.

Inflation has been a fact over the last decade. From the perspective of Moms basement it may not be apparent but buying groceries, paying for energy, price of common goods it is apparent there is inflation.

Our govt inflation indexes don't count many of the things we actually use and they miss the rise.


Govt policy not anything to do with the market is causing the energy increase. Trump gave me a raise with $2.00 gas. Up $.40 in my area over the last month. I expect $5/gallon in three years. Thats money out of the consumer goods economy into the energy economy.

The inflation in stock values is because all other alternatives have been removed from us. Traditional safe investing which most Americans preferred, at their own financial crippling, left right after 2008 when the Fed killed the value of saving. People now invest in stocks because 5% savings interest and 7% CDs dont exist.

In 2008 with an ING account set up for my home improvement money those were typical rates. My loan sitting in the bank gained enough interest every month to buy better fixtures and appliances than planned. Granted my loan rate was also 6.25%. Now sitting in the bank at 1% it would be a daily net loss.

This was a kiss to Wall Street at the cost of putting seniors/fixed income people in jeopardy. There is a real bubble in 401Ks that will be milked by the Titans one of these days. I only hope that I am in a chair when the music stops.

The only other safe harbor investment has been housing. 3% rates have driven housing prices up beyond the market value controls of location and scarcity (supply/demand). The result of that is soon no young family will be able to afford a home. That's okay because we are supposed to live in the Titan idea of a beehive and own nothing.

6. In Finland instead of finding that UBI increased the labor pool as they had hoped it didn't.

People didn't use their UBI to improve themselves, get training for a better job, get childcare so they could enter the work force. I read reports some of them wrote poetry or took the money to allow them to hang out and paint. That was what people did in the Soviet Union and their economy suffered from shortage and stagnation while being considered a world super power.

Commies always base their claims on environments that don't exist and they deny human nature.

They say "Socialism/communism works if these factors are in place....." but those factors are not naturally in place and do not work in the real world.

Communism only works in a limited population of homogeneous people faced with an external existential threat. Remove any of that and it fails.

Too many people you likely create surplus and people become capitalist, labor specializes.

Get people with varied life goals than they want freedom to do as they please and the socialism machine suffers the lack of drones to keep it running. The drones become upset seeing others leaving more work for them, eventually the working drones stop working.

Without an existential threat people refuse to subvert their individual goals for the betterment of the community.

Its human nature.

Socialism/communism is counter to thousands of years of understanding basic human nature.

Fuck even commie Bernie failed the test....


The genius of our Declaration of Independence/Constitution is that they are completely built upon the bedrock of human nature and protecting against the worst aspects of it.

Closing....

UBI/socialism/communism is untenable because it is an affront to human nature. It tries to force the stream to flow uphill.

Capitalisms harnessing of human nature will lead to abuses but it ensures constant improvement, pressure to provide the most utility at the lowest cost to the greatest extent possible. A Republic of laws would hold those accountable that abuse the system. Political malfeasance interferes with the mechanisms of accountability.

The socialist/communist puts their policies to work making assumptions about the community that don't exist. It denies the basic needs/desires of a modern western society and your general human regardless of their culture. Aesops simple observations were astute and universal.

Only un-natural conditions, conditions of a dystopian nature, allow the ideas of the socialist/communist to work. I don't want to live in that world. I experienced a taste of it living in the Soviet Union. It is the last 11 months on steroids.

And really, you want to deny Ben Franklin? A man that amongst peers of high genius he stood out.......


If Franklin was wrong why these signs....Science!

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View attachment 7530913

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#3 I didn't say we had a mixed money economy. I said "suppose" we do. It is a typical form of academic argument used to elucidate a point. The point was that "UBI money" is not necessarily fiat money or hard money. It isn't even a kind of money at all. It is a policy that transfers money from one person to another. You are trying to use a hard money argument to argue against policy, mixing metaphors.

I have no idea why you bring Jeremy Bentham into the equation other than that you have never studied economics (I have an advanced degree in it.) Utilitarianism was Bentham's philosophical school. It was basically garbage IMO. The concept of utility, and particularly marginal utility, is THE central concept in economics. It refers to the value of one additional unit of a good or service. It explains almost all pricing, including why some jobs make more when they seem really easy. It isn't the blood, sweat and tears, it is the marginal utility. In fact, while you bloviate about communism everywhere, you seem not to understand that the labor unit theory of value, to which you seem to subscribe, is the central means of analysis for Marx.

#4 While there is little doubt in the real world that having a UBI policy is going to increase the money supply, that in itself hasn't shown to absolutely lead to an increase in inflation, and it certainly doesn't lead to an increase in inflation across the board. Arguably, trucks would be low on the list of inflationary items because there is really no demand for excess capacity in trucks, while there is for many consumer goods. To wit, there is more marginal utility to another television for most people than a second vehicle.

#5 You can hardly find an economist who believes that fiat money is worthless because it is not backed by hard assets. In fact, that would basically be saying that it is not money at all, as it would violate there areas where you say we have agreement, that the thing in question is money because it can be exchanged for goods. In other words, if the money is worth its exchange value, how can it at the same time be worth nothing at all? As for inflation, I never said it has been nonexistent, I said it has been mild. It has. That's a fact. I understand that low interest rates drive asset values, and that is something I certainly do not like, but that is a known function of the market risk premium equation. It is not stealth inflation.

#6 This is just a jumbled mess. I think communism sucks, I think socialism sucks, I think you shouldn't feed the animals, and I think Ben Franklin was great. I believe you that something nasty happened in Finland.

The problem with all of this is that what we understand now about why communism doesn't work, and why capitalism does has very little to do with what you wrote. I happen to agree with you that capitalism is a morally superior system, but most of what you write about human nature etc is pretty much garbage, since we have no idea what human nature really is having lived in societies so long. In fact, to get back to your suggestion of Locke, the concept of man without society coming into society not only almost certainly never happened, but in all likelihood, Locke knew that and was using it as a methaphor. Man and society were birthed together, not one before the other. Anyway, what we now understand to be the failing of a planned society as opposed to an unplanned (capitalist) society is that the latter, through the mechanism of marginal utility (see above) allows for better signals of demand to be sent to the market because, as you note, different people have different preferences from those "planners" might assume them to have, and they solve their problems differently. Thus, a planned economy is never able to create the same supply and demand signals as a market economy can.

Also, nice yard signs but people aren't squirrels.
 
I fall back to what was said by an early founder. The Republic will be lost, once the politicians learn they can Bribe the People with their own money. The Stimulus check vote, just prior to the Georgia Senate elections was a key point in our history. The Democrats knew to load the bill with pork, so it would be rejected by the Republican-held Senate. To the public, they saw themselves being "deprived" of $2000 because those Republicans blocked it. The voters there did not care what the underlying cause for the NO vote was. The voters knew if they voted in Democrats, they would say YES, no matter how much pork was added to the bill. This strongly resembles the early stages of Venezuela and Cuba.
 
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What determines pay for a job? Location, Scarcity of the skill craft, demand.

If there are a hundred million people who could do the job with hours, or a few days of training.. the job pays little. This level of job, is commonly advertised, and almost constantly available. (example: Fast Food, hospitality industries)

If there are a limited number of people who can do the job in a city/region, and a ground up training of someone from high school would take years. These jobs pays well. (Example: Skill Crafts, such as electrician, plumber, automotive repair, AC repair)

If the number of people who can do the job is scarce, and it requires a nation-wide search to find a capable candidate, the job earns them top pay. This is especially true where the knowledge required to perform the job takes Decades of Experience and training to adequately perform it. However, jobs in this latter category have openings less frequently than the previous two groups. (Example: Senior Design Engineering, Heads of Hospitals, Software Project managers, top investment portfolio managers)

When I lived in Oklahoma, the bottom fell out on the entire Machining business in the early 80s. Up until then, Machinist jobs paid well. There was a local glut of people who had the skill, but no jobs. As such, the wages for Machinists plummeted locally. Those machinist who relocated to other markets, discovered they still had value in those other areas (location). There was a local glut, which depressed wages (Scarcity of the skill craft). Locally, Demand was low for that skill craft.

Summary: your pay is proportional to the Difficulty your employer will have replacing you (or your function via automation).
 
Last edited:
What determines pay for a job? Location, Scarcity of the skill craft, demand.

If there are a hundred million people who could do the job with hours, or a few days of training.. the job pays little. This level of job, is commonly advertised, and almost constantly available. (example: Fast Food, hospitality industries)

If there are a limited number of people who can do the job in a city/region, and a ground up training of someone from high school would take years. These jobs pays well. (Example: Skill Crafts, such as electrician, plumber, automotive repair, AC repair)

If the number of people who can do the job is scarce, and it requires a nation-wide search to find a capable candidate, the job earns them top pay. This is especially true where the knowledge required to perform the job takes Decades of Experience and training to adequately perform it. However, jobs in this latter category have openings less frequently than the previous two groups. (Example: Senior Design Engineering, Heads of Hospitals, Software Project managers, top investment portfolio managers)

When I lived in Oklahoma, the bottom fell out on the entire Machining business in the early 80s. Up until then, Machinist jobs paid well. There was a local glut of people who had the skill, but no jobs. As such, the wages for Machinists plummeted locally. Those machinist who relocated to other markets, discovered they still had value in those other areas (location). There was a local glut, which depressed wages (Scarcity of the skill craft). Locally, Demand was low for that skill craft.

Summary: your pay is proportional to the Difficulty your employer will have replacing you (or your function via automation).
This is basically correct, but easier stated that somebody will continue to pay for additional inputs of something up until the point at which the cost of a marginal input is equal to the marginal utility of the input. It doesn't matter whether it is machinist hours or marshmallows, the mechanism is the same, and it is this mechanism that is most pure in a market economy and least pure in a planned economy. There are only points for backbreaking labor in Marxism.
 
#3 I didn't say we had a mixed money economy. I said "suppose" we do. It is a typical form of academic argument used to elucidate a point. The point was that "UBI money" is not necessarily fiat money or hard money. It isn't even a kind of money at all. It is a policy that transfers money from one person to another. You are trying to use a hard money argument to argue against policy, mixing metaphors.

I have no idea why you bring Jeremy Bentham into the equation other than that you have never studied economics (I have an advanced degree in it.) Utilitarianism was Bentham's philosophical school. It was basically garbage IMO. The concept of utility, and particularly marginal utility, is THE central concept in economics. It refers to the value of one additional unit of a good or service. It explains almost all pricing, including why some jobs make more when they seem really easy. It isn't the blood, sweat and tears, it is the marginal utility. In fact, while you bloviate about communism everywhere, you seem not to understand that the labor unit theory of value, to which you seem to subscribe, is the central means of analysis for Marx.

#4 While there is little doubt in the real world that having a UBI policy is going to increase the money supply, that in itself hasn't shown to absolutely lead to an increase in inflation, and it certainly doesn't lead to an increase in inflation across the board. Arguably, trucks would be low on the list of inflationary items because there is really no demand for excess capacity in trucks, while there is for many consumer goods. To wit, there is more marginal utility to another television for most people than a second vehicle.

#5 You can hardly find an economist who believes that fiat money is worthless because it is not backed by hard assets. In fact, that would basically be saying that it is not money at all, as it would violate there areas where you say we have agreement, that the thing in question is money because it can be exchanged for goods. In other words, if the money is worth its exchange value, how can it at the same time be worth nothing at all? As for inflation, I never said it has been nonexistent, I said it has been mild. It has. That's a fact. I understand that low interest rates drive asset values, and that is something I certainly do not like, but that is a known function of the market risk premium equation. It is not stealth inflation.

#6 This is just a jumbled mess. I think communism sucks, I think socialism sucks, I think you shouldn't feed the animals, and I think Ben Franklin was great. I believe you that something nasty happened in Finland.

The problem with all of this is that what we understand now about why communism doesn't work, and why capitalism does has very little to do with what you wrote. I happen to agree with you that capitalism is a morally superior system, but most of what you write about human nature etc is pretty much garbage, since we have no idea what human nature really is having lived in societies so long. In fact, to get back to your suggestion of Locke, the concept of man without society coming into society not only almost certainly never happened, but in all likelihood, Locke knew that and was using it as a methaphor. Man and society were birthed together, not one before the other. Anyway, what we now understand to be the failing of a planned society as opposed to an unplanned (capitalist) society is that the latter, through the mechanism of marginal utility (see above) allows for better signals of demand to be sent to the market because, as you note, different people have different preferences from those "planners" might assume them to have, and they solve their problems differently. Thus, a planned economy is never able to create the same supply and demand signals as a market economy can.

Also, nice yard signs but people aren't squirrels.

3. So wealth redistribution is okay? The plumber should appreciate that every half hour of his work goes to someone else? Jeremy Bentham certainly applies in economics. He and Adam Smith were correspondents. Adam Smith kind of applies to economics - No? Political philosophy applies directly to an economic outlook.

When it comes to "utility" and the human commies see nothing but interchangeable parts. Most, other than Pol Pot, are not stupid enough to put it in full practice but certainly the first step in Communism is to eliminate the "intelligentsia".

And it is the blood sweat and tears. Entrepreneurs, Doctors and skilled people not only have natural ability and talent but they work their asses off. That sweat equity comes at a cost to those that desire their services.

4. You are repeating yourself. You stating there has not been inflation does not make it so. Under Trump we experienced some declining costs due to favorable policies.

Gas is currently up $.40/gallon in my AO over the last two months. Stand by because you are soon going to be experiencing an ass raping unlike that which we have known before.

5. Right now our money only has value based on investors belief our Republics viability is long term. Investors put aside politics when it is their own cash. They will advocate for you to invest your shit in pipe dreams publicly but when you look at their portfolio you will find they do the opposite. Elizabeth Warren types "Crusading for the little guy" made millions buying homes the bank took from that guy than flipping them for profit. We will see the next regime transferring that "trust and confidence" in the US as a safe investment to China.....watch and see what it does to our money based on "faith and hope". Our Intellectual Property and ability as innovators make us the "Republic of IPO" but with weakening of IP protections, something Trump championed, China will be the innovator.

Further weakening our place is our education system. Its failing. The future does not look to be a good investment with a country of citizens that hate themselves and their country because that was what they were taught at their public school via the 1620 Project.

Other western countries suffer the same injury. The enemies promoting are laughing at how acceptable people are to this lie.

I hope Im wrong but i have been way more right about shit than you have.

Your last paragraph I sum up here.....



When it comes to human nature I give you one mans observation of universal truth made millenia ago.....


This is the "new lie" kids are being taught....



Id suggest you read "The Last stand of Fox Company" to get an idea of what we are facing and what it takes to defeat our enemies.....they are dedicated, they give no fucks, and they will exploit any weakness....


Dont squander what the men on that hill gave you.
 
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I fall back to what was said by an early founder. The Republic will be lost, once the politicians learn they can Bribe the People with their own money. The Stimulus check vote, just prior to the Georgia Senate elections was a key point in our history. The Democrats knew to load the bill with pork, so it would be rejected by the Republican-held Senate. To the public, they saw themselves being "deprived" of $2000 because those Republicans blocked it. The voters there did not care what the underlying cause for the NO vote was. The voters knew if they voted in Democrats, they would say YES, no matter how much pork was added to the bill. This strongly resembles the early stages of Venezuela and Cuba.


The problem is though that the current pols are not bribing the people.

The top of the pyramid is voting its own largesse while giving the people scraps.

That stimulus bill with is $600 check to citizens while func=ding Pakistani sex studies was a "Let them eat Cake" statement.

They dont give a fuck about the vote, they have wrapped up that necessary evil, now its just "bread and circuses" to keep the beasts complacent while the rape continues.
 
What determines pay for a job? Location, Scarcity of the skill craft, demand.

If there are a hundred million people who could do the job with hours, or a few days of training.. the job pays little. This level of job, is commonly advertised, and almost constantly available. (example: Fast Food, hospitality industries)

If there are a limited number of people who can do the job in a city/region, and a ground up training of someone from high school would take years. These jobs pays well. (Example: Skill Crafts, such as electrician, plumber, automotive repair, AC repair)

If the number of people who can do the job is scarce, and it requires a nation-wide search to find a capable candidate, the job earns them top pay. This is especially true where the knowledge required to perform the job takes Decades of Experience and training to adequately perform it. However, jobs in this latter category have openings less frequently than the previous two groups. (Example: Senior Design Engineering, Heads of Hospitals, Software Project managers, top investment portfolio managers)

When I lived in Oklahoma, the bottom fell out on the entire Machining business in the early 80s. Up until then, Machinist jobs paid well. There was a local glut of people who had the skill, but no jobs. As such, the wages for Machinists plummeted locally. Those machinist who relocated to other markets, discovered they still had value in those other areas (location). There was a local glut, which depressed wages (Scarcity of the skill craft). Locally, Demand was low for that skill craft.

Summary: your pay is proportional to the Difficulty your employer will have replacing you (or your function via automation).

Natural talent, skill, education necessary to achieve learned ability, scarcity, location all play a part.

The communist ideal removes that and makes humanity just a heard of beasts.

The Khmer Rouge put this concept in practice. Doctors were "re-educated" to be farmers and "farmers" were told they could be doctors.

The only thing that matters is the elite at the top.

They get the privilege.

Their great abilities would ensure they put the human pegs where needed and for that they deserve privilege while others get none.

Stalin figured a military general was expendable until he found out he didnt have any to stop the Nazis.

The Khmer were so abhorrent their commie pals from VN had to shut them down.

People are individuals, their talents vary, we need a free society to let them achieve to the best of their abilities as their human nature leads them to do.
 
3. So wealth redistribution is okay? The plumber should appreciate that every half hour of his work goes to someone else? Jeremy Bentham certainly applies in economics. He and Adam Smith were correspondents. Adam Smith kind of applies to economics - No? Political philosophy applies directly to an economic outlook.

When it comes to "utility" and the human commies see nothing but interchangeable parts. Most, other than Pol Pot, are not stupid enough to put it in full practice but certainly the first step in Communism is to eliminate the "intelligentsia".

And it is the blood sweat and tears. Entrepreneurs, Doctors and skilled people not only have natural ability and talent but they work their asses off. That sweat equity comes at a cost to those that desire their services.

4. You are repeating yourself. You stating there has not been inflation does not make it so. Under Trump we experienced some declining costs due to favorable policies.

Gas is currently up $.40/gallon in my AO over the last two months. Stand by because you are soon going to be experiencing an ass raping unlike that which we have known before.

5. Right now our money only has value based on investors belief our Republics viability is long term. Investors put aside politics when it is their own cash. They will advocate for you to invest your shit in pipe dreams publicly but when you look at their portfolio you will find they do the opposite. Elizabeth Warren types "Crusading for the little guy" made millions buying homes the bank took from that guy than flipping them for profit. We will see the next regime transferring that "trust and confidence" in the US as a safe investment to China.....watch and see what it does to our money based on "faith and hope". Our Intellectual Property and ability as innovators make us the "Republic of IPO" but with weakening of IP protections, something Trump championed, China will be the innovator.

Further weakening our place is our education system. Its failing. The future does not look to be a good investment with a country of citizens that hate themselves and their country because that was what they were taught at their public school via the 1620 Project.

Other western countries suffer the same injury. The enemies promoting are laughing at how acceptable people are to this lie.

I hope Im wrong but i have been way more right about shit than you have.

Your last paragraph I sum up here.....



When it comes to human nature I give you one mans observation of universal truth made millenia ago.....


This is the "new lie" kids are being taught....



Id suggest you read "The Last stand of Fox Company" to get an idea of what we are facing and what it takes to defeat our enemies.....they are dedicated, they give no fucks, and they will exploit any weakness....


Dont squander what the men on that hill gave you.

Oh brother. You really don't know what you are talking about. You are literally using Marxist analysis for prices and then calling me a commie because I am using neoclassical analysis. That is rich. Richer even is that you don't know you are doing it.

Prices are directly a function of supply and demand. Supply and demand are inextricably related to marginal cost and marginal utility. You say that utility is a commie idea, and I am explaining to you that it is the central idea of the free markets. As ugly as it sounds, in the market labor is a good with a utility value. Communists for years have been complaining that this simply devalues the blood, sweat and tears that it takes to make things. Just like you are. You are basically toeing the Marxist line without even knowing it, which makes me think that you are almost completely uneducated when it comes to economics. I know that you will probably be buoyed by many likes, and "fuck that commie" responses about what I am saying, but if you read Marx, and you read any orthodox understanding of economics.

To put a finer point on it, the value of an invention is not related to the time put in to create it, but to its value to society. In other words, its utility. The same invention is not more valuable because it was the work of ten years in the salt mines than if it were conjured in a dream overnight. The work put in is immaterial. Again, Marx's entire body of work was focused on disproving this. His idea was the labor value of a good.

RE inflation, once again I did not say there has been none, I said it has been tame. Re the value of the dollar it is more complicated than that. Yes, the assumed persistence of the US is a major part, but as in finance where a company has two values, that as a going concern and that as salvage value, you have to assume the going concern value as long as it is a going concern. The idea of markets being the best solution is that they are usually right, so you assume they are, and that they are pricing in the reasonable future w/r/t currency prices, which are certainly the most efficient of all markets for any number of reasons.

I have no idea where you have been more right than me. Certainly not in this thread, where your theoretical chops are disastrous, nor in all those threads about how the Kraken was coming and Lin Wood was going to save us all. So where are you more right, my friend?
 
I fall back to what was said by an early founder. The Republic will be lost, once the politicians learn they can Bribe the People with their own money. The Stimulus check vote, just prior to the Georgia Senate elections was a key point in our history. The Democrats knew to load the bill with pork, so it would be rejected by the Republican-held Senate. To the public, they saw themselves being "deprived" of $2000 because those Republicans blocked it. The voters there did not care what the underlying cause for the NO vote was. The voters knew if they voted in Democrats, they would say YES, no matter how much pork was added to the bill. This strongly resembles the early stages of Venezuela and Cuba.


Told you so......

 
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It's human nature that kills these utopian ideas. Always. You'll never eliminate greed, and you'll never eliminate the desire to be free.

The two don't mix, ever.
 
If you give someone something for nothing, say a guaranteed basic income, than the value of that item is nothing.

The government has no power to "give". Whatever it provides it must take directly from someone else or promise to take from the future in order to have the value now.

Prove me wrong..........

If I give someone a dollar, it's worth a dollar. You're wrong.
 
Here’s a plan, don’t watch or listen to anything they do,

they measure ratings avoid it the ratings drop the message changes

make an effort not to watch , not to click blackout

the numbers will show
^^^ this X a kajillion.

Vote with your feet, wallet, and television remote every single chance you can.

It matters.
 
@pmclaine - I would advise you to read Hayek's Use of Knowledge in Society in order to understand why exactly markets work better than non markets. It is probably the finest explainer of their advantages, and how we understand pricing that you can find without going into higher mathematics. It isn't easy, and if you run into trouble, I am happy to help explain.

It is a conundrum that market economics is actually value neutral. We always want the useful and the good to match. It is much easier to see our positions as not only right but also most moral. Economics does not afford us that luxury. It is why we have all been accused to seeing the world in the harsh realities of the market vs in love for our fellow humans. As I said, Marxism is really built on that concept. He admits readily that capitalism has made for great wealth, but it doesn't care for the common man. Now, we know that is incorrect because we see common man fair better under market systems, but that doesn't arrogate to the market any sort of morality. It is simply a more useful system. In the same way that a back hoe is better than a shovel is better than your hands.

We can also be right in our opinions on the basis of morality and virtue, but those are often distinct arguments, Again I recommend to you the above Hayek paper to understand why it is that these things work better. Cheers.
 
It's human nature that kills these utopian ideas. Always. You'll never eliminate greed, and you'll never eliminate the desire to be free.

The two don't mix, ever.

When under control Greed is a good thing.

Consider this....

1611162732591.png
 
UBI strikes me as mechanism for creating a great deal of inflation.

If we’re bound and determined to give away someone else’s money then I think something like easy to access small business grants would do much more focused stimulus.
 
Here’s a plan, don’t watch or listen to anything they do,

they measure ratings avoid it the ratings drop the message changes

make an effort not to watch , not to click blackout

the numbers will show
Can we add to the plan - In order to Deprogram the Left - they should all:

"Put Choid on Ignore also"
 
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