Seems like that should be flattened, if the center is dead wind. This chart says that the quartering wind affects the vertical as much as the horizontal... Seems like it should be at least 10:1, maybe 50:1 in favor of horizontal movement...
- Thread starter justin amateur
- Start date
I used to shoot short range Benchrest.
The chart is spot on.
The chart is spot on.
What has me curious is what has happened to the quality of 17 HMR ammo. Not too long after the round hit the market my lovely wife bought me a Marlin 917 VS in the laminated stock which I proceeded to glass bed and fiddle with the trigger. I have quite a few early groups in my log book with less than 1/2 inch at 100 yards recorded and quite a few prariedogs fell to it all the way out to 150-160 yards. Disease took care of the dogs and I moved on to centerfire for coyote hunting and let the Marlin sit in the safe. Age took care of the coyote hunting a couple of years ago. I can't walk the distances involved here on the south plains anymore. This year I drug out the Marlin, installed a Rifle Baxix trigger, and bought a 17 HMR barrel for my G2 Contender rifle. I can't do better than an inch and usually not quite that good at 100 yards with the current ammo. I'm beginning to wish I had saved the money spent on the new Contender barrel and just stuck with the 22 LR match barrel.
Since CCI is supposed to load all the 17 HMR ammo except the Winchester has their machinery worn to the point where it is no longer capable of loading decent ammo? With the results I've gotten with the currently available ammo at 100 yards I haven't bothered to move out to 200 yards. My shooting abilities haven't degraded a lot with the other calibers I shoot so I'm blaming the ammo.
Since CCI is supposed to load all the 17 HMR ammo except the Winchester has their machinery worn to the point where it is no longer capable of loading decent ammo? With the results I've gotten with the currently available ammo at 100 yards I haven't bothered to move out to 200 yards. My shooting abilities haven't degraded a lot with the other calibers I shoot so I'm blaming the ammo.
what has happened to the quality of 17 HMR ammo?
You answered y'er own question...CCI and Winchester are the only manufacturers of 17hmr ammo.
Neither has the quality control in place to provide consistent quality cartridges needed for predictable results.
It's all hunting and plinking rimfire ammunition, no match grade ammo from either of their lines.
You answered y'er own question...CCI and Winchester are the only manufacturers of 17hmr ammo.
Neither has the quality control in place to provide consistent quality cartridges needed for predictable results.
It's all hunting and plinking rimfire ammunition, no match grade ammo from either of their lines.
Maybe I did. I was getting much better accuracy in the early life of caliber. Now it's basically gone to pot.
I got some CCI-SV 22 ammo that wasn't quite up to snuff not long ago but the newer batch is doing as good as before the hiccup. If they can still load decent 22 rimfire why can't they load 17 HMR? I'm blaming it on wear and tear on their equipment and hope they fix the process.
I'm going to buy one box of the Winchester 20 grain HMR and see what it does. It's all I can find in 20 grain locally and my Contender prefers the 20 grain in CCI. I'm not expecting much considering how the quality of their 22 LR offerings has gone in the toilet but the cost of one box isn't going to break my bank. Maybe it will be the reverse of CCI.
I got some CCI-SV 22 ammo that wasn't quite up to snuff not long ago but the newer batch is doing as good as before the hiccup. If they can still load decent 22 rimfire why can't they load 17 HMR? I'm blaming it on wear and tear on their equipment and hope they fix the process.
I'm going to buy one box of the Winchester 20 grain HMR and see what it does. It's all I can find in 20 grain locally and my Contender prefers the 20 grain in CCI. I'm not expecting much considering how the quality of their 22 LR offerings has gone in the toilet but the cost of one box isn't going to break my bank. Maybe it will be the reverse of CCI.
I was handed a box of old production Eley Tenex.
Produced about 1975 from what I could find on the web.
It's 40 grain 22lr with a silvery lubricant on the bullets.
Packed loose in the cardboard tray, but still in decent shape.
455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair bipod
12 dot box helps to identify about when it was made.
Imperial Metal Industries (Kynoch) tightens up the time frame
Even packed loose the cartridges don't show many visible defects.
Quite uniform in appearance.
And even after over 40 years in storage, still only 33 fps ES.
Not bad for antique 22lr with gusting headwinds. Not bad at all.
Produced about 1975 from what I could find on the web.
It's 40 grain 22lr with a silvery lubricant on the bullets.
Packed loose in the cardboard tray, but still in decent shape.
455 Varmint, Lilja, Sinclair bipod
12 dot box helps to identify about when it was made.
Imperial Metal Industries (Kynoch) tightens up the time frame
Even packed loose the cartridges don't show many visible defects.
Quite uniform in appearance.
And even after over 40 years in storage, still only 33 fps ES.
Not bad for antique 22lr with gusting headwinds. Not bad at all.
I don't believe I could have made myself shoot that old box of Eley. I'm a collector of older boxed 22 ammo.
Don't sweat it KOD, he still has a case and a half left.
I'm hoping he has some other antique oddities to chronograph and check the quality of.
I'm easily entertained, remember?
I'm hoping he has some other antique oddities to chronograph and check the quality of.
I'm easily entertained, remember?
I'd pay $20 shipped for a pristine full box of that Eley Tenex.
I did some 200 yard shooting last weekend. This will eventually be my new home and shooting range. I can get 300 yards back to the tree line as shown in the last photo. These were shot with my Tikka #3 but I left the targets back in VA. I'm pretty sure Center-X is on top then followed left to right, Pistol King, RWS R50 sc, Fiocchi Official 300 and Fed GM Ultra Match. I shot other rifles before the Tikka and by that time it had gotten dark on me. Those dots are 3/4" and just barely good enough to get a good picture with my Vortex Razor Gen II on 18 power. After the first group I went up 6 or 7 clicks. When using my Kahles on 24 power, at that distance I can't see a single bullet hole but when a cluster develops I can, such as the little cluster on the top target. I might could do better with a better bench. The Nitecore easily brightens up the target at that distance.
I normally shot with this setup using a cut piece of plywood but I left my clamps and didn't have a way to hold it.
Would you believe F-class Buckmark Silhouette?
At 200 yards?
Looks funny as heck.
But no problem pinging the 14 inch plate at 200 yards.
Once I figure out what I'm doing, need to see what happens with decent 22lr ammo.
At his point, nothing from you surprises me.
I don't have that much of a problem with the table itself as long as I keep the thumb screws tight. The table top needs to be bigger and I use my 4x4 to support the rear of the plywood addition; like this photo shows.
My home table has evolved to this and it works pretty good. Fan to keep me cool, umbrella to keep the sun off me and a deflector shield to keep from having to pick up empties.
your setup looks sooooo civilized and comfortable compared to mine ;-) but i dont need a fan ! ( it looks warmer than it is - c. 50 F )
( it looks warmer than it is - c. 50 F ) barronion,
Is that 50, 100 and 200 yard ranges?
Is that 50, 100 and 200 yard ranges?
the 1-5 is at 100m, the 2 white squares in the middle are at 200m and the white blob on the right just before the shadows is a target i put up at 50m. When the range is open there are electronic targets at 100m and 200m but at other times, like in the picture, they are withdrawn into their underground silos.
That's what I was thinking. That's a nice range, however I'm not a fan of laying down and shooting.
Wow your TIkka #3 is a shooter! I have only tried the cheap Eley Ammo (Target/Contact) at 200 yards and my groups are 5-6". That Pistol King looks pretty darn consistent.
I bought a brick of Eley Club and Eley Pistol match and they do pretty terrible @ 100 yards, so I haven't bothered with 200 yards with them. Only have a few boxes of Eley Tenex left, and given how it shoots at 100, pretty sure it'll look good at 200, but I am just saving the Tenex for matches instead of burning them on paper.
I bought a brick of Eley Club and Eley Pistol match and they do pretty terrible @ 100 yards, so I haven't bothered with 200 yards with them. Only have a few boxes of Eley Tenex left, and given how it shoots at 100, pretty sure it'll look good at 200, but I am just saving the Tenex for matches instead of burning them on paper.
Littlepod,
If I recall, Eley as a whole was not a standout performer with any of my T1x's. I went back and checked my targets and Eley Match was the only type worth talking about. I have yet to shoot Center-X at 55 yards in the #3. I only had 25 rounds left of each type on the target shot with Eley. It's worth noting that I shoot suppressed with my Silencerco Sparrow all the time. I am a firm believer my Tikka's are more accurate with it. If I may, I would recommend 3 boxes each of the following:
Lapua Center-X
Lapua Pistol King
Federal GM Ultra Match
RWS R50 sc
Eley Match
I know this is pushing $200 for ammo but that's just what the cost is. Maybe start out with Center-X and Pistol King and go from there. When Brownells had the Pistol King on sale for $7.79 per box I bought quite a bit over a period of time and I know I had at least three different lot numbers and they all shot fantastic, and it shot well in all my Tikka's.
I would recommend CCI SV but honestly I hit the lottery with my lot number. I just opened up my last 5,000 round case too.
I believe I have put these up before but here are some groups shot with the used but LNIB Tikka #3 at 55 yards. There are 61 groups at 1/2" or better out of 74 total, that's 82%. There are 48 groups under 1/2", that's 65% of groups better than 1 MOA and that's accepting the MOA = to a true 1 inch. To top it off, this is with 6 different brands of ammo.
This is by no means meant to be a bragging post, but merely to point out "with evidence" the Tikka T1x can and will shoot consistently with a variety of ammo. Some people may ask, "why I have three". Well, the first one I bought when they were very scarce and I found one for $450 shipped. The next one I got lucky and Whittakers honored a pricing error on their website and I got the 22 LR and 17 HMR for $362 shipped, each. Kinda hard to pass that up wouldn't anyone say? The third come via a Rock Island Auction, roughly $360 shipped LNIB with box "looks like it was never fired" plus it come with a 20 MOA DIP rail and 4 extra mags, 3 of which was still sealed in the Beretta bag. That is how I ended up with three. One is up for sale, the Tikka #3 will stay in stock form and the other will have its barrel replaced with the IBI barrel in the next few weeks.
If I recall, Eley as a whole was not a standout performer with any of my T1x's. I went back and checked my targets and Eley Match was the only type worth talking about. I have yet to shoot Center-X at 55 yards in the #3. I only had 25 rounds left of each type on the target shot with Eley. It's worth noting that I shoot suppressed with my Silencerco Sparrow all the time. I am a firm believer my Tikka's are more accurate with it. If I may, I would recommend 3 boxes each of the following:
Lapua Center-X
Lapua Pistol King
Federal GM Ultra Match
RWS R50 sc
Eley Match
I know this is pushing $200 for ammo but that's just what the cost is. Maybe start out with Center-X and Pistol King and go from there. When Brownells had the Pistol King on sale for $7.79 per box I bought quite a bit over a period of time and I know I had at least three different lot numbers and they all shot fantastic, and it shot well in all my Tikka's.
I would recommend CCI SV but honestly I hit the lottery with my lot number. I just opened up my last 5,000 round case too.
I believe I have put these up before but here are some groups shot with the used but LNIB Tikka #3 at 55 yards. There are 61 groups at 1/2" or better out of 74 total, that's 82%. There are 48 groups under 1/2", that's 65% of groups better than 1 MOA and that's accepting the MOA = to a true 1 inch. To top it off, this is with 6 different brands of ammo.
This is by no means meant to be a bragging post, but merely to point out "with evidence" the Tikka T1x can and will shoot consistently with a variety of ammo. Some people may ask, "why I have three". Well, the first one I bought when they were very scarce and I found one for $450 shipped. The next one I got lucky and Whittakers honored a pricing error on their website and I got the 22 LR and 17 HMR for $362 shipped, each. Kinda hard to pass that up wouldn't anyone say? The third come via a Rock Island Auction, roughly $360 shipped LNIB with box "looks like it was never fired" plus it come with a 20 MOA DIP rail and 4 extra mags, 3 of which was still sealed in the Beretta bag. That is how I ended up with three. One is up for sale, the Tikka #3 will stay in stock form and the other will have its barrel replaced with the IBI barrel in the next few weeks.
Attachments
ive never seen a bench here. everything is 3 position shooting with a sling or hunting license renewal.
I’ve shoot blue rocks at about 275 yards. The scope cz 452 combo would not zero at that range but hit pretty consistent with Texas windage using standard vol ammo.
What a lucky lot of CCI SV! Yeh mine performs horribly. Pistol King did pretty well in my Tikka. I bought 1 box and it averaged at .9" at 100 yards, which is pretty nice. Tenex though has always done amazing. I bought 10 boxes during the SWFA sale for $10 a box, and it shoots for me .75" at 100 yards, with some groups in the .4-.5". Down to 5 boxes. I wish I bought a few thousand rounds at that price...
I had a box of Eley Match Biathlon that shot well, but their Pistol Match has not shot well. I might go back and try again.
Eley Club looks like your groupings, where random rounds would fly. 8 more boxes... that I don't really want to shoot. I guess it can be practice ammo, or maybe my Ruger 10/22 would like it.
I need to get a box of SK Pistol Match Special.... but right now I'm currently just focusing on competing in PRS style competitions and nothing requires sub moa shooting so I'm okay just finishing off all my Eley Target/Club/SK+ before going down the rathole again for tiny groups.
At the local matches I might buy a box or two from people if they have stuff they want to sell me.
No laughing out loud.
Snorts or giggles are acceptable.
Laughter will have serious repercussions.
Understood?
Wind from the East at 12 to 18 mph.
Gusting headwinds, not really conducive to consistent results.
Good excuse to play with the F-Class Buckmark Silhouette.
That way when I mess up I can blame it on the wind.
Grabbed the bulk box of Winchester 36 grain cphp left from earlier this year
and set 3 big targets on 3 backers at 200 yards to work with.
Chewed up the first target adjusting the scope and trying different body positions
looking for the most comfortable and stable which allowed the best control.
Then sent 50 at one target, adjusted the scope a little more, then 50 at the last target.
Old Remington tray holding 50 cartridges of the Winchester to keep track.
The first 50 trying to hit the black dot
The next 50 after another scope adjustment
Kept all the shots on the backer this time.
Even with the gusting headwind.
Not quite so much lateral spread.
about 14 inches of vertical, apply the half-third rule
100 yards expect 4.7 inches of vertical
50 yards would be 1.6 inches of vertical
25 yards and 0.5 inches of vertical with a pistol, for 50 consecutive shots.
Bulk 22lr under lousy conditions from a pistol.
I could do that again. Quite enjoyable.
Still causing laughter amongst the local benchrest guys.
Snorts or giggles are acceptable.
Laughter will have serious repercussions.
Understood?
Wind from the East at 12 to 18 mph.
Gusting headwinds, not really conducive to consistent results.
Good excuse to play with the F-Class Buckmark Silhouette.
That way when I mess up I can blame it on the wind.
Grabbed the bulk box of Winchester 36 grain cphp left from earlier this year
and set 3 big targets on 3 backers at 200 yards to work with.
Chewed up the first target adjusting the scope and trying different body positions
looking for the most comfortable and stable which allowed the best control.
Then sent 50 at one target, adjusted the scope a little more, then 50 at the last target.
Old Remington tray holding 50 cartridges of the Winchester to keep track.
The first 50 trying to hit the black dot
The next 50 after another scope adjustment
Kept all the shots on the backer this time.
Even with the gusting headwind.
Not quite so much lateral spread.
about 14 inches of vertical, apply the half-third rule
100 yards expect 4.7 inches of vertical
50 yards would be 1.6 inches of vertical
25 yards and 0.5 inches of vertical with a pistol, for 50 consecutive shots.
Bulk 22lr under lousy conditions from a pistol.
I could do that again. Quite enjoyable.
Still causing laughter amongst the local benchrest guys.
I'm jealous of the shooting/target surroundings that Kissofdeath and Barronian have.
That is beautiful. I have no mountains. Oh God, how I would love to be able to look out the back and see the scenery that you two have.
But, I have this. Built it about 11 years ago, added a water well so I could raise and lower my levels. Added Aeration to keep the bass healthy. But oh man, if I could have done this where you two are.......that would have been a blessing.
That is beautiful. I have no mountains. Oh God, how I would love to be able to look out the back and see the scenery that you two have.
But, I have this. Built it about 11 years ago, added a water well so I could raise and lower my levels. Added Aeration to keep the bass healthy. But oh man, if I could have done this where you two are.......that would have been a blessing.
How far out can you shoot at your property? When I retire I'm definitely moving somewhere to have land to shoot in my backyard...
Right here down the side of the lake, I can go back about 120 yards.
We own a lot of property around here so I have lots of places I can go back as far as 2 miles in some places. And lots of places to hunt and fish.
@Shooter_X nice place you have too and nice bass ! i suspect you wouldn't like our temperatures (or cost of living !) yesterday i was lying on ground that was just marginally above freezing with the max air temp being about 38 F. today will be colder ... but yes it is pretty
This sounds like fun and very interesting soon as I get access to 200 yards I will try it and post results I have a 52 Winchester I'd like to try it with the Ruger rpr and Annie 54 and my Vudu should be here pretty soon hopefully I will get access to 200 yards and post my results
That's a lot of 22's!
Eley Action 40 grain 22lr rated 1090 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Visual inspection shows minor dents and dings to the bullet noses
and a few chips in the drive bands, chronograph shows very decent ES.
Results from the first 50
Not bad with a headwind from my 10 to 11 o'clock
Inspection of the second box showed a few more dents and dings,
chronograph numbers just a bit bigger ES. Wind picked up and it shows.
Increased turbulence rolling across the range made for much larger spread.
Out of 100 cartridges sent, 9 failed to fire on the first try.
All fired on the second or third try after extracting and rotating to a new section of rim.
Sent some SK Magazine at the steel plates after trying the Eley Action,
no fail to fires with the SK, must have been insufficient primer in the rim of the Eley cartridges.
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Visual inspection shows minor dents and dings to the bullet noses
and a few chips in the drive bands, chronograph shows very decent ES.
Results from the first 50
Not bad with a headwind from my 10 to 11 o'clock
Inspection of the second box showed a few more dents and dings,
chronograph numbers just a bit bigger ES. Wind picked up and it shows.
Increased turbulence rolling across the range made for much larger spread.
Out of 100 cartridges sent, 9 failed to fire on the first try.
All fired on the second or third try after extracting and rotating to a new section of rim.
Sent some SK Magazine at the steel plates after trying the Eley Action,
no fail to fires with the SK, must have been insufficient primer in the rim of the Eley cartridges.
JA:Suppose you had a rifle like this...
Lonestar action, Shilen ratchet barrel, Jewel trigger, Harrel tuner,
Night Force 42X Competition scope, put together by Gene Davis.
and a box of Eley Match, lot number 1018-01212.
At 200 yards, 50 shots, do you think you could do this well?
It wasn't me, I don't own a rig that nice.
Impressive to say the least. But the support system was not a bipod and rear bag. It would be most interesting to know the difference in the dispersion as shot with a forend competition rest, I presume, and a competition rear bag and the dispersion with a bipod and tactical rear bag. A lot or a little?
RLS
Rick, I think wind judgement and ammunition quality have more effect on results
than the method of supporting the rifle does. I've seen some amazing results shot prone with a bipod.
When I started this thread, it was more about the results than the technique used.
What can a truly skilled shooter accomplish at 200 yards, using any setup, for 50 consecutive shots with rimfire.
Skilled, that lets me out, I'm barely competent.
than the method of supporting the rifle does. I've seen some amazing results shot prone with a bipod.
When I started this thread, it was more about the results than the technique used.
What can a truly skilled shooter accomplish at 200 yards, using any setup, for 50 consecutive shots with rimfire.
Skilled, that lets me out, I'm barely competent.
Ummmmmmm....after taking a close look, I'm thinking it wouldn't help.
It's on wheels....I have enough problems when the bench doesn't move.
It's on wheels....I have enough problems when the bench doesn't move.
Who is the maker of that bench? I can see some potential for it. Those itty, bitty wheels aren't going to roll in dirt.
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Justin:Rick, I think wind judgement and ammunition quality have more effect on results
than the method of supporting the rifle does. I've seen some amazing results shot prone with a bipod.
When I started this thread, it was more about the results than the technique used.
What can a truly skilled shooter accomplish at 200 yards, using any setup, for 50 consecutive shots with rimfire.
Skilled, that lets me out, I'm barely competent.
Don't the results depend on the technique? I presume what you are stating is your technique is always the same and thus not a variable.
I always enjoy your posts because they make me think. And, cleverly, you have started an informal 200 yd thread. Come next
spring I will participate. Next spring because I am most definitely a fair weather shooter. Indoors dry firing in the winter.
I agree entirely with the hypothesis that wind judgement and ammunition quality are more important than the support. But that does not mean the dispersion due to the support is insignificant. And not only the support for the rifle but the underlying support, i.e. a bench or the ground. Rickety benches feature prominently in several posts. So I plan a series of experiments hopefully with the only variable the support. First with a one-piece competition benchrest on a bench, then a bipod and rear competition heavy bag on ground, then with a bipod and tactical squeeze type rear bag on the ground and finally with a bipod and my shoulder on the ground. At my range in the spring and summer early in the morning it is dead calm. To minimize dispersion in muzzle velocity will use either Tenex, R50, or Midas+ or some other ammo if other people have a better suggestion. I am assuming the premium ammunition has the least velocity dispersion.
I know I should buy and use a device to measure the muzzle velocity and sort the bullets by weight and rim thickness. Maybe I will.
Can you account for the vertical dispersion of you groups with the variation in muzzle velocity? And roughly the horizontal dispersion with variation in wind speed and direction?
I will be ordering very large sheets of cardboard for my experiments.
Rick
technique is always the same
That is the goal. To use the same motions/methods every shot.
In order to produce consistent trajectories, everything needs to be as close to identical as possible for every shot.
That's the concept, accomplishing it is a whole different story.
I've tried weight sorting, length sorting, rim thickness, brass diameter, bullet diameter.
The results did not provide better accuracy or tighter muzzle velocities.
I'd have done better to spend the extra money for better quality ammunition.
Cartridge inspection will provide you with more useful information than all the other measurements.
If the bullets show dents/dings/damaged or irregular drive bands and sloppy seating
there is no way you will obtain repeatable accuracy using asymmetric bullets.
Apply Eyeball Mark I to the cartridges before chambering.
You will find as I have, that if they look like crap, they shoot like crap.
Wind drift can be predicted. Velocity spread can be verified.
Cartridge defects and turbulence related dispersion are damn near unpredictable.
That's what I've learned over the past year and a half trying every brand/type of 22lr, 22wmr, 17hmr and 17 wsm available.
That is the goal. To use the same motions/methods every shot.
In order to produce consistent trajectories, everything needs to be as close to identical as possible for every shot.
That's the concept, accomplishing it is a whole different story.
I've tried weight sorting, length sorting, rim thickness, brass diameter, bullet diameter.
The results did not provide better accuracy or tighter muzzle velocities.
I'd have done better to spend the extra money for better quality ammunition.
Cartridge inspection will provide you with more useful information than all the other measurements.
If the bullets show dents/dings/damaged or irregular drive bands and sloppy seating
there is no way you will obtain repeatable accuracy using asymmetric bullets.
Apply Eyeball Mark I to the cartridges before chambering.
You will find as I have, that if they look like crap, they shoot like crap.
Wind drift can be predicted. Velocity spread can be verified.
Cartridge defects and turbulence related dispersion are damn near unpredictable.
That's what I've learned over the past year and a half trying every brand/type of 22lr, 22wmr, 17hmr and 17 wsm available.
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Here is a graph I made of the results reported before. It also looks like SD correlates just as well with the group height?MD, did you run the numbers to compare vertical spread to ES?
And where are my rifle pron pics?
Range and setup images so I can obsess over the facility,
the gear and the chronograph.
Very important, eh?
Blue line is Extreme spread.
Orange is Standard deviation.
Grey line is Group height.
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Justin:
I just finished reading all of this thread. Takes more than one reading to appreciate all of the good intel.
Harold Vaughn in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts" devotes an entire chapter to the effects of bullet imbalance on accuracy. He states, page 169, "Bullet imbalance is one of the largest contributors to dispersion.." Vaughn gives an equation for the magnitude of the effect given you know the offset of the center of mass/gravity of the bullet from its geometric center. This occurs if the density of the material in the bullet is not radially symmetric. Another cause you have pointed out - non-radially symmetric geometry of the bullet from dings, dents, whatever. Finally as you have also pointed out the centerline of the bullet not being exactly parallel with the centerline of the case. I presume this circumstance will produce bullet deformation when the round is chambered.
Now I appreciate single shot loading. Just ease that rascal into the chamber. Gently, gently. Should a bullet with perfect geometry that is eased into a chamber and then extracted still be perfect? Hopefully.
Given all of the above, control round feeding could/should have a beneficial effect on accuracy. Kudo for Vudoo and the new Blaser R8 22lr. Would copper jacketing lessen the dings and dents? As always it seems more questions than answers.
Rick
I just finished reading all of this thread. Takes more than one reading to appreciate all of the good intel.
Harold Vaughn in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts" devotes an entire chapter to the effects of bullet imbalance on accuracy. He states, page 169, "Bullet imbalance is one of the largest contributors to dispersion.." Vaughn gives an equation for the magnitude of the effect given you know the offset of the center of mass/gravity of the bullet from its geometric center. This occurs if the density of the material in the bullet is not radially symmetric. Another cause you have pointed out - non-radially symmetric geometry of the bullet from dings, dents, whatever. Finally as you have also pointed out the centerline of the bullet not being exactly parallel with the centerline of the case. I presume this circumstance will produce bullet deformation when the round is chambered.
Now I appreciate single shot loading. Just ease that rascal into the chamber. Gently, gently. Should a bullet with perfect geometry that is eased into a chamber and then extracted still be perfect? Hopefully.
Given all of the above, control round feeding could/should have a beneficial effect on accuracy. Kudo for Vudoo and the new Blaser R8 22lr. Would copper jacketing lessen the dings and dents? As always it seems more questions than answers.
Rick
I shoot a 200 yard rimfire match (prone with sling). I'm using Eley Club and it works very well in my CZ452. I tried Eley Match but my scores seemed to be 10 points lower than Club. The wise marksman at the match all advocate sub-sonic ammo. Here's a photo of my rifle.
You have better off hand skill than I do, 2Mikes.
i have to use a mechanical support or I wander all over creation.
Eley Team 40 grain 22lr rated 1085 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Flat nose 40 grain with a dimple on top, but looking at the cartridges something bothered me.
Not many dents or dings and the drive bands looked ok, but something was off.
It wasn't until I rolled a few cartridges on a flat surface that I figured out what it was.
Not all the flats were square to the center line of the cartridge, some were tilted
and others had extra bumps at the edges of the flats. Most were very symmetrical
but enough were oddly shaped to prevent them from being Eley's best.
The second box had the same scattered odd cartridges.
Most appeared to be high quality production, but a few had visible differences.
Chronograph numbers were decent, but the 6 fail to fires were annoying.
Extracted, rotated, rechambered, all went bang on the second try.
Sent some antique Tenex afterwards, all went bang on the first try.
Another batch of Eley production with sections of the rim without primer.
i have to use a mechanical support or I wander all over creation.
Eley Team 40 grain 22lr rated 1085 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Flat nose 40 grain with a dimple on top, but looking at the cartridges something bothered me.
Not many dents or dings and the drive bands looked ok, but something was off.
It wasn't until I rolled a few cartridges on a flat surface that I figured out what it was.
Not all the flats were square to the center line of the cartridge, some were tilted
and others had extra bumps at the edges of the flats. Most were very symmetrical
but enough were oddly shaped to prevent them from being Eley's best.
The second box had the same scattered odd cartridges.
Most appeared to be high quality production, but a few had visible differences.
Chronograph numbers were decent, but the 6 fail to fires were annoying.
Extracted, rotated, rechambered, all went bang on the second try.
Sent some antique Tenex afterwards, all went bang on the first try.
Another batch of Eley production with sections of the rim without primer.
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Rick, thanks for pointing me to Vaughn's publication.
Found a pdf on line and saved a copy, here's the link if anyone else is interested...
drive.google.com
Found a pdf on line and saved a copy, here's the link if anyone else is interested...
Rifle Accuracy Facts Full v1.1.pdf
drive.google.com I am sure you have come across this article but thought that it fits here.
www.theboxotruth.com
The Box O' Truth #49 - Damaged Bullet Accuracy and the Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth
I have had friends that were deer hunters that would closely inspect their hunting bullets and discard any that showed any damage whatsoever to the point o
www.theboxotruth.com Eley Practice 100 40 grain 22lr rated 1062 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Quick inspection showed uniform appearance, minimal dents or dings.
Rolling on a flat surface indicated the flat tips weren't all square to the center line of the cartridge.
Visible wobble of the top edge of the bullet nose on some of the cartridges.
Vertical spread matches the ES, lateral spread is due to the crosswind.
Unpredictable puffs blowing across the range that the flags didn't show.
Next box of 50 showed the same nose irregularities when rolled.
As the wind increased so did the lateral spread.
From the 2 boxes, 21 fail to fires. Extracted, rotated, rechambered, all went bang
...on the second or third or fourth try. Not Eley's best.
SK Magazine sent at the steel plates had no fail to fires.
Not the rifle, either Eley is having problems with primer,
or shipping and handling is bumping and banging primer out of the rim.
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Quick inspection showed uniform appearance, minimal dents or dings.
Rolling on a flat surface indicated the flat tips weren't all square to the center line of the cartridge.
Visible wobble of the top edge of the bullet nose on some of the cartridges.
Vertical spread matches the ES, lateral spread is due to the crosswind.
Unpredictable puffs blowing across the range that the flags didn't show.
Next box of 50 showed the same nose irregularities when rolled.
As the wind increased so did the lateral spread.
From the 2 boxes, 21 fail to fires. Extracted, rotated, rechambered, all went bang
...on the second or third or fourth try. Not Eley's best.
SK Magazine sent at the steel plates had no fail to fires.
Not the rifle, either Eley is having problems with primer,
or shipping and handling is bumping and banging primer out of the rim.
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Eley Practice 100 40 grain 22lr rated 1062 fps
CZ 455 Varmint, Lilja barrel, Sinclair bipod
Quick inspection showed uniform appearance, minimal dents or dings.
Rolling on a flat surface indicated the flat tips weren't all square to the center line of the cartridge.
Visible wobble of the top edge of the bullet nose on some of the cartridges.
Vertical spread matches the ES, lateral spread is due to the crosswind.
Unpredictable puffs blowing across the range that the flags didn't show.
Next box of 50 showed the same nose irregularities when rolled.
As the wind increased so did the lateral spread.
From the 2 boxes, 21 fail to fires. Extracted, rotated, rechambered, all went bang
...on the second or third or fourth try. Not Eley's best.
SK Magazine sent at the steel plates had no fail to fires.
Not the rifle, either Eley is having problems with primer,
or shipping and handling is bumping and banging primer out of the rim.
I've shot a fair amount of P100. Two different lot numbers selected for speed and success in a couple of my rifles. I can't think of any FTF's. Now the lots I selected were 2016 and 2017. What timeframe was your P100 produced?
ST, the lot number shows it to be from 2015.
A search of "Eley fail to fire" shows it's not an isolated problem.
It can be caused by uneven or no application of primer into the rim
and variations in brass thickness when cupping the shells.
Remember, the CZ 455 is a multi caliber receiver.
It has to be capable of firing 22wmr and 17hmr.
Very robust spring and pin.
Checked the bolt and breach faces for gsr buildup, still clean.
Pulled the bolt apart, interior of bolt, pin shoulders clean also.
Shooting SK Magazine afterwards had no ftf.
It's that batch of Eley.
A search of "Eley fail to fire" shows it's not an isolated problem.
It can be caused by uneven or no application of primer into the rim
and variations in brass thickness when cupping the shells.
Remember, the CZ 455 is a multi caliber receiver.
It has to be capable of firing 22wmr and 17hmr.
Very robust spring and pin.
Checked the bolt and breach faces for gsr buildup, still clean.
Pulled the bolt apart, interior of bolt, pin shoulders clean also.
Shooting SK Magazine afterwards had no ftf.
It's that batch of Eley.
