.224 Valkyrie

semperfireloading

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Ok, I listened to latest Podcast, about section on why so many shooters have accuracy issues using the heavies. I found it to be consistent with my extensive testing. Here are the points in the podcast, in case you didnt listen:
1) High twist rate and long bullets that have certain center or gravity could cause accuracy issues because the bullet could deform. (paraphrasing)
2) Bullets pushed too hard have issues with high twist rate barrels. (This is correlated by ppl like myself pushing 90 grain Sierra hard and they just disenigrate in mid air (few/some))
3) Berger bullets are a more stout construction, and this is a reasonable reason why they are notable solid performers in the 80-85 grain bullets. (this is reasonable, because I am shredding "some" hornady and Sierra bullets in the 1:6.5 twist,but never 1 Berger.
4) it was related to other caliber guns about twist rates, and 5.56, and noted that "6"twist rate guns are not comparable accuracy to "normal" twist rate guns in calibers related....

That podcast explained perfectly, why in same magazine, I shoot a 1.5 MOA group or so with heavies, then shoot a ~.7 MOA group with Berger 77 OTM (tangent design/super sturdy construction, vastly different center of gravity than heavies...) Just switching the bullet, BANG, nuts accurate in that super fast twist. Plus I like to run all my loads at max or over max. Near all.

So to sum up the entire theory, its basically this. 1:6.5 twist is not "best balance" approach for Valkyrie.

Perhaps, Rock Creek has right idea about 1.6.7 or a gain twist of 1:7.2-1:6.5, or just flat out 1:7. 1:7 does not shoot "some" bullets I tested, they keyhole. But it seems to shoot 88 and 90 grain just fine, as well as 85 RDF just fine.

Conclusion for me not buying a 1:6.5 twist barrel ever again, going to see if I can get WOA to make me a Krieger blank 1:6.8 or gain twist as noted above.

I thank Lowlight, and Berger, and is it Bryan? For that insightful and thoughtful podcast. After I keyholed using 1:7, I thought 1:7 sucked, and 1:6.5 was the answer. After buying many 1:6.5's to test, I have to admit, I was probably VERY wrong about that. I don't like 1:6.5 at all, and that is it for me of that.

Great info, I love constructive and insightful discussions like that.

Semper Fi gentlemen.
 
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TACC

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Great info
I'm going to start on the 88's as soon as the range opens up and will post results as well
 
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MarinePMI

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Went to the range yesterday to get some quick numbers.

27gr of CFE223 and a 77gr TMK yielded 2950fps avg (on the nose).

28.4grs of 2000MR and a 77gr TMK yielded 3100fps, but was on the hairy edge of pressure (pierced on primer in a box of 50).

80 degrees, 60% humidity. Batlein LHGT 1-6.5 @24", on an Origin action.

Accuracy for both loads was pretty good from what I could tell (shoulder/neck nerve damage is still giving me fits).

ETA: That 2000MR load is also the limit for that bullet because with that size charge, you start deforming the nose when seating the bullet. i.e. The case is too full to seat to a SAAMI spec'ed chamber...would need more throat to seat the bullet out further.
 
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aone

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Went to the range yesterday to get some quick numbers.

27gr of CFE223 and a 77gr TMK yielded 2950fps avg (on the nose).

28.4grs of 2000MR and a 77gr TMK yielded 3100fps, but was on the hairy edge of pressure (pierced on primer in a box of 50).

80 degrees, 60% humidity. Batlein LHGT 1-6.5 @24", on an Origin action.

Accuracy for both loads was pretty good from what I could tell (shoulder/neck nerve damage is still giving me fits).
27.1 of cfe is giving me right around 2950 with the berger 80.5. I just picked up some 2000mr yesterday. I will test with 80.5, 85.5, and 88eldm. The CFE is great but I don't want multiple loads for the crazy TX weather.

I'm running a 26" mpa/Spencer in an axiom action.
 
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MarinePMI

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27.1 of cfe is giving me right around 2950 with the berger 80.5. I just picked up some 2000mr yesterday. I will test with 80.5, 85.5, and 88eldm. The CFE is great but I don't want multiple loads for the crazy TX weather.

I'm running a 26" mpa/Spencer in an axiom action.
Yeah, 27grs seems to be a sweet spot with CFE and this case. This is a PD load, so an SD of 15 fps over 20rds is good enough for me. Especially when I just threw charges with a Harrell’s powder measure. Velocity is high enough in my book for what I want it to do.

Makes for easy morning reloading sessions, before heading out to the PD towns for the day.
 
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RFutch

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RFutch, not to derail all of the load data, but for someone who hasn’t yet played with the 224V (but has a lot of AI 223 mags), was it as simple as filing away a little plastic?
I didn’t do anything to them. The feed lips seem to be a little wider than other 223 mags. They feed perfect about 99% of the time. Just a hiccup every now and then.
 
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semperfireloading

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OK!! I FOUND IT!! Here it is!! Here is another explanation similar to PODCAST....from Lowlight....with more detail on "skidding" and deformation of bullets with fast twist...


I love at end, how he says skidding, and starting out in fast twist causes "flyers". And he is using and testing majority 5.56 80-90 grain competition barrels. I found it interesting, that he is using 1:14 to 1:6.5 twist, or 1:12 to 1:6.8 gain twist to shoot 90 grain Bergers. Interesting. So apparently, its proven, that you don't need to start with a fast twist in .224 to stabilize, you can start with 1:14. I didn't know that.

He also says that when you start out with slow twist, you can up the powder charge and get another 50 FPS because its less pressure.

He is using Barlein Barrels only.

Ok, I am going to buy one to try it. I just need to find somebody who will make it. I think I will try 1:12 to 1:6.5 or something like this.
 
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semperfireloading

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OK, 5th barrel for Valkyrie arrived. RAINIER ULTRAMATCH MOD 2 1:7.5 22" Installed it, made like 38 different loads, and went to to the club.

More


Well, this barrel could be the best of the 5 I have installed so far. Maybe. It seems to shoot 88 grain ELD-M's just fine, so I am super curious why almost the entire market is selling 1:6.5 barrels? The more barrels I get in, the more I think 1:6.5 is a problem.

Anyway, Berger OTM 77 always do good, in every gun, every barrel, with almost any load. That bullet is very versatile. so all in all, out of maybe what? 38 groups? A little under HALF were 1 MOA or better? But this is only 5 shot groups. If I did 10 shot groups instead of like 18 or so MOA groups or better, it might be like 10?
I have about another 60 loads with this Barrel planned for within a week...so after this week, I will have data on about 100 loads through this barrel.

about 5-6 of the groups could have been better. The gas block was too light, and it caused a whole bunch of jams, which dented the crap and scratched the bullet up, some tips too. I shot it all dented, smashed tips, etc. After adjusting gas block (superlative) the recoil at 100 from the bags, was the muzzle came up maybe 6" or less off POI.

I held trigger down 2 seconds after after shot before release, and there is no I jerked a bunch of shots, because I didn't, and I didn't, every time I pulled the trigger the crosshair was within the highlighted area, with white showing on all sides. Margin of error maybe .15 MOA I would fathom to assume.

this is using a trijicon 5x50 x 56MM Accupower scope, at 50 power at 100 yards. Feels like cheating.

I like this barrel overall, its the best VALUE so far, for sure, and I like how it shoots 55 grain bullets very well, as well as up to 88 grain so far...I will test 95 grain SMK's in it soon.

This has a SAAMI chamber, I measured it. I think rainier used sound logic making a 1:7.5 Valkyrie barrel. Just guessing, but they probably got the idea from Krieger's 1:7.7 twist 5.56 barrel that was winning competitions using 80 grain bullets 10 years ago? So they figured, make it slightly faster so it could do slightly heavier? Seems good. ZERO issues with bullets coming apart or keyholing in the 1:7 and 1:7.5, but ALL the 1:6.5 barrels I tested Keyhole and destroy a "few" bullets.

Learning more and more about this cartridge. I should have done this 2 years ago. I have 3 powders backordered, then I will have every powder possible for use in Valkyrie.

So far, I see no reason to use the slow end of the powders in up to 90 grain. The middle of the road powders like VARGET, TAC, XBR8208, N140, RL15, SW Precision Rifle, Accurate 2460, seem to do just fine or better than the slowest ones.
 
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aone

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Yeah, 27grs seems to be a sweet spot with CFE and this case. This is a PD load, so an SD of 15 fps over 20rds is good enough for me. Especially when I just threw charges with a Harrell’s powder measure. Velocity is high enough in my book for what I want it to do.

Makes for easy morning reloading sessions, before heading out to the PD towns for the day.
I finally got out to test PP 2000-MR yesterday with the berger 80.5, 85.5, eldm 88, and sierra 90. 'No drama'. Everything shot 1/4-1/2 moa across all charge weights except for the berger 85.5s which continue to give me ~1moa groups. PP2000-mr seems to give me better velocity than cfe223 without the weirdness at higher velocity, and hopefully better temperature stability.

85 degrees, 60% humidity. Shooting an axiom/spencer 26". 1x starline brass with fed 205m primers.

All data is 5 shot groups

Factory loaded federal/berger 80.5s - 2940fps (20.7)

Berger 80.5:
charge: velocity (sd)
26.1: 2745 (14.5)
26.4: 2771 (10.9)
26.7: 2807 (9.4)
27.0: 2843 (8.7)
27.3: 2892 (13.0)
27.6: 2928 (17)
27.9: 2978 (1.0)

Berger 85.5: Only had a handful of projectiles left
26.1: 2750 (5.2)
26.4: 2774 (9.8)
26.7: 2826 (2.2)
27.0: 2836 (4.5)

Hornady 88 eldm:
25.9: 2713 (11.2)
26.2: 2744 (11.1)
26.5: 2777 (11.4)
26.8: 2814 (15.5)
27.1: 2849 (6.8)

Sierra mk 90:
25.9: 2700 (10.2)
26.2: 2734 (12.1)
26.5: 2764 (10.4)
26.8: 2799 (13.7)
27.1: 2828 (missing)

Here's some older cfe223/berger 80.5 data for comparison (70 degrees, humidity not noted so it must have been low)

26.2: 2778 (3.1)
26.4: 2809 (20.0)
26.5: 2836 (9.5)
26.6: 2836 (9.2)
26.8: 2865 (3.4)
27.0: 2891 (9.4)
27.1: 2900 (9.4) <--- shot this same load yesterday at 85 degrees - velocity was 2940 (15 degrees difference)
27.2: 2914 (11.9)
27.3: 2918 (12.1)
 

TACC

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Sorry I missed it somewhere, aone,
What barrel twist are you running?
 

bgavin

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So what is the most temp stable powder I could use with 80 and 88 eldm ?

I live in South Alabama with huge temp swings. Tired of chasing my load with cfe223.

thanks
 
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bgavin

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I just got some varget 6br build so I’ll give it a try.
Will try to find a lb of h4895 also.
Thanks
 
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AKGuide

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So what is the most temp stable powder I could use with 80 and 88 eldm ?

I live in South Alabama with huge temp swings. Tired of chasing my load with cfe223.

thanks
You’re going to want either H4895 or Varget for most temp stable. If you have a 24” Bbl the 80’s like 2920-2940fps for a node using H4895. This will usually be from 24.4-25.0 grains and 0.035-0.050” jump. The 88’s are more jump tolerant and will jump anywhere from 0.025-0.090” and they liked 2740fps in my 24” Bbl. The 88’s were much easier to get to shoot but the 80’s if you can get them dialed have a silly high G7 bc of 0.258 as per Bryan Litz.
 
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bgavin

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You’re going to want either H4895 or Varget for most temp stable. If you have a 24” Bbl the 80’s like 2920-2940fps for a node using H4895. This will usually be from 24.4-25.0 grains and 0.035-0.050” jump. The 88’s are more jump tolerant and will jump anywhere from 0.025-0.090” and they liked 2740fps in my 24” Bbl. The 88’s were much easier to get to shoot but the 80’s if you can get them dialed have a silly high G7 bc of 0.258 as per Bryan Litz.
[/
Thank you sir. I have a 26 inch 1:7 barrel.

When I first developed my load with the 80's and cfe223, i shot the best groups I've ever shot at distance for several weeks. It was 20 thou off with26.0 grains. The temp changed and i haven't been able to reproduce those results.

Couldn't get the 88's to shoot under a moa in my gun with cfe.

Will give varget a try this weekend and will be on the hunt for h4895.
 
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SilencedShooter11B

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OK, 5th barrel for Valkyrie arrived. RAINIER ULTRAMATCH MOD 2 1:7.5 22" Installed it, made like 38 different loads, and went to to the club.

More


Well, this barrel could be the best of the 5 I have installed so far. Maybe. It seems to shoot 88 grain ELD-M's just fine, so I am super curious why almost the entire market is selling 1:6.5 barrels? The more barrels I get in, the more I think 1:6.5 is a problem.

Anyway, Berger OTM 77 always do good, in every gun, every barrel, with almost any load. That bullet is very versatile. so all in all, out of maybe what? 38 groups? A little under HALF were 1 MOA or better? But this is only 5 shot groups. If I did 10 shot groups instead of like 18 or so MOA groups or better, it might be like 10?
I have about another 60 loads with this Barrel planned for within a week...so after this week, I will have data on about 100 loads through this barrel.

about 5-6 of the groups could have been better. The gas block was too light, and it caused a whole bunch of jams, which dented the crap and scratched the bullet up, some tips too. I shot it all dented, smashed tips, etc. After adjusting gas block (superlative) the recoil at 100 from the bags, was the muzzle came up maybe 6" or less off POI.

I held trigger down 2 seconds after after shot before release, and there is no I jerked a bunch of shots, because I didn't, and I didn't, every time I pulled the trigger the crosshair was within the highlighted area, with white showing on all sides. Margin of error maybe .15 MOA I would fathom to assume.

this is using a trijicon 5x50 x 56MM Accupower scope, at 50 power at 100 yards. Feels like cheating.

I like this barrel overall, its the best VALUE so far, for sure, and I like how it shoots 55 grain bullets very well, as well as up to 88 grain so far...I will test 95 grain SMK's in it soon.

This has a SAAMI chamber, I measured it. I think rainier used sound logic making a 1:7.5 Valkyrie barrel. Just guessing, but they probably got the idea from Krieger's 1:7.7 twist 5.56 barrel that was winning competitions using 80 grain bullets 10 years ago? So they figured, make it slightly faster so it could do slightly heavier? Seems good. ZERO issues with bullets coming apart or keyholing in the 1:7 and 1:7.5, but ALL the 1:6.5 barrels I tested Keyhole and destroy a "few" bullets.

Learning more and more about this cartridge. I should have done this 2 years ago. I have 3 powders backordered, then I will have every powder possible for use in Valkyrie.

So far, I see no reason to use the slow end of the powders in up to 90 grain. The middle of the road powders like VARGET, TAC, XBR8208, N140, RL15, SW Precision Rifle, Accurate 2460, seem to do just fine or better than the slowest ones.
Ive been using a 20” Rainier Ultramatch Mod 2 224 Valkyrie barrel in competition this year after putting over a thousand rounds through it while testing loads

My primary load is the “red rocket” 80gr ELD with 24.8gr of H4895 and CCI BR4. I tested up to 25.2gr in the same node but accuracy wasn’t improved (Pushing this caliber too hard doesn’t seem to be ideal) and velocity wasn’t enough to justify the decrease in primer pocket life.

I’ve used: 69gr SMK/TMK, 77gr SMK/TMK, 80gr ELD, 88gr ELD, and 90gr SMK all with success using RE15, Varget, H4895, CFE223, and 2000MR. Of course not every load is a slam dunk but that’s what testing is for.

I did work my butt off finding what bullet and powder combos were the best in my rifle but once I put in the effort the results have been great.
 

Triple D

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Why the 1:6.5t? It seems to work with a good chamber. I can run AE75 up to FGMM 90’s and 95smk handloads in my 1:6.5t 22” WOA. It’s actually shot several sub half moa groups, a handful of sub .3moa groups, but averages closer to 1moa with the AE75’s.

My Rainier Match hammers with 80eld’s, but the 1:7.5t doesn’t do well with the FGMM 90’s, as there was some stability issues observed. It’s solid with the FGMM 80.5’s though, which works for me. I’m still a firm believer that the 80 class bullets are the best option for this cartridge if shooting inside of 1100yds.

Load confirmation this past weekend. RA ultramatch, 24” +2, 1:7.5t
2D982538-33DD-4FE3-96EB-C960F636BAC2.jpeg
24” +2 RA Ultramatch 1:7.5, 22” RLGS WOA 1:6.5 (FGMM 90 test)
04BADF9D-7C80-422A-961E-A9CA0E80E0F5.jpeg
WOA 22”, 1:6.5t FGMM 90
32CF0447-5DEC-4F57-971C-FA93E3649D9A.jpeg
 
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semperfireloading

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to me so far, looks like the Mile High place out of DENVer has the right idea. They offer Bartlien blanks for bolt guns on this. That is the way to go. after buying so many AR15 barrels, and seeing so many others at club, I just believe something is wrong with this in AR15. I don't know what it is. If you can't make it super accurate using Berger bullets, and trying 300+ different loads, then you know the caliber has problems. I buy WOA barrel for 5.56, I try almost ANY load with Berger? Add to that list, 10 other barrel makers, same day testing, Sub MOA immediately, or near immediately. Its so easy. Why would anyone spend this much time and money in an AR15/10 when they could just get a proven, super accurate Creedmoor or 5.56 or you name it? I spent months trying to make this valkyrie work. Nothing works so far that is what you would call "very good, or Excellent". I have 60+ powders on hand, 50+ bullet types, the best equipment that I know of, on planet earth. The best dies, and nothing I can do in a virtual science lab can fix this Valkyrie to shoot consistently accurate like every other AR15 I got? People probably think I am the problem. I eliminated me already. I had highpower shooters try, they all failed. Flyers, you name it. They all think the caliber sucks. We go back to their compass lake, WOA highpower 5.56? near 1/2 MOA lights out, with EASE.

I am leary, because a lot of these companies trying to sell me 1:6.5 barrels. Every single company telling me their barrel is accurate. I fell for it 5x because I was in disbelief that so many top barrel companies would be selling basically junk saying it was so good. Not upset about the Rainier because it was a great value. For the price of a little more than a cheap replacement barrel, you get a barely SUB MOA barrel. That is outstanding deal.

BIG test coming up to shed light on this caliber. BIG test. Science coming. LOL

I should have built a bolt gun. But I like AR15's. Anyone want to buy 2 Valkyrie uppers cheap? LOL I will buy Mile High shooting, Denver CO parts and barrel, and have a lights out bolt gun, guaranteed to own with probably even junk reloads.
 
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Triple D

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after buying so many AR15 barrels, and seeing so many others at club, I just believe something is wrong with this in AR15. I don't know what it is. If you can't make it super accurate using Berger bullets, and trying 300+ different loads, then you know the caliber has problems. I buy WOA barrel for 5.56, I try almost ANY load with Berger? Add to that list, 10 other barrel makers, same day testing, Sub MOA immediately, or near immediately. Its so easy. Why would anyone spend this much time and money in an AR15/10 when they could just get a proven, super accurate Creedmoor or 5.56 or you name it? I spent months trying to make this valkyrie work. Nothing works so far that is what you would call "very good, or Excellent". I have 60+ powders on hand, 50+ bullet types, the best equipment that I know of, on planet earth. The best dies, and nothing I can do in a virtual science lab can fix this Valkyrie to shoot consistently accurate like every other AR15 I got? People probably think I am the problem. I eliminated me already.
No idea why you’ve had such bad luck, but I think changing so many bullets and powder combinations during one session isn’t helping.

This was a new barrel, first range trip. Shooting the same load as a previous RA barrel, with charges +/- .2gr.
AFAB8D5E-7A21-480A-8D5A-4812FB92F34D.jpeg

Then the following week I went to test the more promising loads. Three grouped well enough for my use, and all 3 had essentially the same point of impact. If I was using something other than a bipod and small rear bag I might could tighten it up, but again, it works for my use. I just wanted a light recoiling AR that I could use in steel plate matches and killing varmints. It’s not a benchrest rifle, but it wasn’t built for that.
0BB801F0-4C87-4303-BEB7-141E7C286C28.jpeg

@semperfireloading, PM me a price for the RA and WOA barrels.
 
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Jackomason

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to me so far, looks like the Mile High place out of DENVer has the right idea. They offer Bartlien blanks for bolt guns on this. That is the way to go. after buying so many AR15 barrels, and seeing so many others at club, I just believe something is wrong with this in AR15. I don't know what it is. If you can't make it super accurate using Berger bullets, and trying 300+ different loads, then you know the caliber has problems. I buy WOA barrel for 5.56, I try almost ANY load with Berger? Add to that list, 10 other barrel makers, same day testing, Sub MOA immediately, or near immediately. Its so easy. Why would anyone spend this much time and money in an AR15/10 when they could just get a proven, super accurate Creedmoor or 5.56 or you name it? I spent months trying to make this valkyrie work. Nothing works so far that is what you would call "very good, or Excellent". I have 60+ powders on hand, 50+ bullet types, the best equipment that I know of, on planet earth. The best dies, and nothing I can do in a virtual science lab can fix this Valkyrie to shoot consistently accurate like every other AR15 I got? People probably think I am the problem. I eliminated me already. I had highpower shooters try, they all failed. Flyers, you name it. They all think the caliber sucks. We go back to their compass lake, WOA highpower 5.56? near 1/2 MOA lights out, with EASE.

I am leary, because a lot of these companies trying to sell me 1:6.5 barrels. Every single company telling me their barrel is accurate. I fell for it 5x because I was in disbelief that so many top barrel companies would be selling basically junk saying it was so good. Not upset about the Rainier because it was a great value. For the price of a little more than a cheap replacement barrel, you get a barely SUB MOA barrel. That is outstanding deal.

BIG test coming up to shed light on this caliber. BIG test. Science coming. LOL

I should have built a bolt gun. But I like AR15's. Anyone want to buy 2 Valkyrie uppers cheap? LOL I will buy Mile High shooting, Denver CO parts and barrel, and have a lights out bolt gun, guaranteed to own with probably even junk reloads.
Mile high is no joke, if you want it done right go there. I dont know anyone who's gotten a valk from them who has been disappointed. If I had the funds I'd be buying there too.

If I were you I'd just change the barrels on your AR out to another caliber. Maybe even do a 220TB to compare your valk barrel to?
 
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C_R_Slacker

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Seating depth test today with berger 85.5's. .085" jump. (2.271" COAL) 22.8 grains of AR Comp. (2610 fps) Once fired starline brass, cci 400 primers. 18" craddock precision criterion spr profile barrel. Will do charge weight test next then confirm seating depth +/- .010".

Ballistic-X-Export-2020-05-27 20:31:56.391624.pngBallistic-X-Export-2020-05-27 20:33:25.436233.png
 
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SilencedShooter11B

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Why the 1:6.5t? It seems to work with a good chamber. I can run AE75 up to FGMM 90’s and 95smk handloads in my 1:6.5t 22” WOA. It’s actually shot several sub half moa groups, a handful of sub .3moa groups, but averages closer to 1moa with the AE75’s.

My Rainier Match hammers with 80eld’s, but the 1:7.5t doesn’t do well with the FGMM 90’s, as there was some stability issues observed. It’s solid with the FGMM 80.5’s though, which works for me. I’m still a firm believer that the 80 class bullets are the best option for this cartridge if shooting inside of 1100yds.

Load confirmation this past weekend. RA ultramatch, 24” +2, 1:7.5t
View attachment 7337022
24” +2 RA Ultramatch 1:7.5, 22” RLGS WOA 1:6.5 (FGMM 90 test)
View attachment 7337025
WOA 22”, 1:6.5t FGMM 90
View attachment 7337027
I had issues with the first iteration of the FGMM 90SMKs grouping around 1.25 MOA

The newer stuff hovers just under MOA but much Handloads are much much better than both
 
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C_R_Slacker

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Also, factory fgmm 90 grain smk shoot in the .6-.7 moa range in my gun at 2615 fps. (The new stuff)
 
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semperfireloading

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Todays results, results were at 50 yards, converted to MOA for reference. these are 5 shot strings. This is a 22" Rainier UM Mod 2 barrel. zero blown primers, or any issues shooting any of this.
PowderPrimer BrandLoadBullet BrandBullet GrainOAL4 Shot GroupGroup SizeFPSMOAPower FactorHow many bullets each stringGunDateWind1.047CommentsComments 2Energy
Big GameAR Match27.5Hornady ELD-M802.2950.7927971.51223.79Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,389.73
Big GameAR Match28Hornady ELD-M802.2950.6928211.32225.64Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,412.85
AA2520AR Match26Hornady ELD-M802.2950.6528721.24229.78Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,465.17
AA2520AR Match26.5Hornady ELD-M802.2950.829301.53234.42Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,524.94
AA2460AR Match24.5Hornady ELD-M802.2950.628531.15228.24Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,445.60
AA2460AR Match25Hornady ELD-M802.2950.5428941.03231.50Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,487.19
TACAR Match25Hornady ELD-M802.2950.20.4928430.94227.41Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,435.14
TACAR Match25.5Hornady ELD-M802.2950.628961.15231.68Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,489.50
VarmintAR Match25Hornady ELD-M802.2950.7328051.39224.37Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,397.03
VarmintAR Match25.5Hornady ELD-M802.2950.5828791.11230.35Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,472.41
W748AR Match25.5Sierra MK802.2950.2827790.53222.32Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,371.58
W748AR Match26Sierra MK802.2950.5428351.03226.82Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,427.66
XBR8208AR Match25Sierra MK802.2950.5328771.01230.13Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,469.68
AA2460AR Match25Sierra MK802.2950.230.5829131.11233.04Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,507.04
AA2520AR Match26.2Berger VLD802.2950.729061.34232.48Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,499.80
AA2460AR Match25Berger VLD802.2950.380.7728991.47231.89Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,492.24
N135AR Match23.5Berger VLD802.2950.280.4627650.88221.20Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,357.79
IMR4166AR Match24.9Sierra MK772.2950.350.6527941.24215.10Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,333.96
CFE223AR Match27Berger OTM772.2950.5228960.99222.95Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,433.15
2000-MRAR Match28Berger OTM772.2950.40.5829351.11226.03Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,472.92
Used 2 different Chrono's this time to make sure I have reference numbers on about a dozen powders. So far, all 5 barrels I have have common theme of "usually" 1 flyer for every good 5 shot group. Those groups I listed "4 shot groups" that were ~.2 inches at 50 yards, were very tight. There was no pulled shots, the flyers were because of X. Who knows what. Those were precision loads too, very uniform. The difference in the 5 barrels is how far the flyer is away from main grouping of 4 shots.
 
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TACC

Gunny Sergeant
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If this is correct this is a pretty accurate load

W748AR Match25.5Sierra MK802.2950.2827790.53222.32Rainier 22" UM5/29/20203 MPH0.51,371.58
 

Triple D

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Are you documenting which shot is the flyer? Having a 1st or 5th rd flyer isn’t uncommon with AR’s.

Also, for the 80’s, H4895 seems to be the go to powder. It just works.
 
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semperfireloading

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TACC, that is correct. That group looked like a few other groups, except with no flyer so it was like 1 small dime hole. Triple D, I am usually testing with 10 rounds loaded at once. I hardly ever load a magazine with just 5 rounds and shoot. Like today, you can see mostly I used 2 loads of same powder. I loaded all of those at once. I use dummy rounds in the bottom of the magazine as well, and manually eject it after group. Sometimes I do that. I have found no consistent method to avoid flyers, tried many things. Loading 1 at at time, with no magazine at all, still gets flyers. Some of those targets I did that for groups I posted on here. I like this Rainier UM Mod 2, ~1 MOA and only $240 shipped. I think thats good value.
 
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semperfireloading

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Updated range information for today, decided to test SW Precision Rifle (Varget alternative) and it yielded an average of 1.7 MOA across all loads with the best being 1.1 MOA I think. The same as all the other barrels, there is pretty much 1-2 flyers that ruin good groupings. To be 100% sure, its not AR15 "first or last" shot fired, ZERO of the below groups had "any" first or last shot in the 5 shot group. All groups below are shots 2-6 of a magazine loaded with 7. Flyers all over the place, just like the other 4 barrels tested. I pulled 0 shots, rock steady rest, almost zero wind. I was aiming at a sharpie pin prick at 50 yards, using 50X magnification. This is Rainier 22 UM Mod 2, 22". Almost all the loads here with the higher load of the 2, that was over ~1475 Energy left ejector marks and/or raised burs (Slight) on the brass. Zero blown primers, or bad primer cratering. I spent a good amount of time making sure these loads were made with care, and from the decently good SD numbers, apparently they were. The SD's over ~10 had 1 shot in there that was high ES and ruined SD, otherwise, except for that 1 in the group of those, everything pretty much under 11.

I know a lot of people like H4895, but as you can see here, even if I count 4 best shots in each group, nothing is sub MOA. Next week, probably similar test with RL16, using a variety of bullets, and a retest to confirm good loads so far using this barrel.
1590972315803.png
 
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TACC

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First day at the range with the new WOA 24 inch 1:6.5 twist

Shot both 75 grain federal factory and 88 grain eld hornady, both ended up sub MOA.

Shot 10 shot groups for both accuracy (100 yards only) and velocity on magneto V3.

75 grain

Average = 2973
SD = 16.2

88 grain

Average = 2680
SD = 14.1


I put a Gen 3 lil bastard muzzle break on it also, and combined with the +2 rifle gas tube, there was no recoil at all.

Mounted a 5-25 PST GEN 2 on it and can't wait to stretch it out next week.
 
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SilencedShooter11B

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Updated range information for today, decided to test SW Precision Rifle (Varget alternative) and it yielded an average of 1.7 MOA across all loads with the best being 1.1 MOA I think. The same as all the other barrels, there is pretty much 1-2 flyers that ruin good groupings. To be 100% sure, its not AR15 "first or last" shot fired, ZERO of the below groups had "any" first or last shot in the 5 shot group. All groups below are shots 2-6 of a magazine loaded with 7. Flyers all over the place, just like the other 4 barrels tested. I pulled 0 shots, rock steady rest, almost zero wind. I was aiming at a sharpie pin prick at 50 yards, using 50X magnification. This is Rainier 22 UM Mod 2, 22". Almost all the loads here with the higher load of the 2, that was over ~1475 Energy left ejector marks and/or raised burs (Slight) on the brass. Zero blown primers, or bad primer cratering. I spent a good amount of time making sure these loads were made with care, and from the decently good SD numbers, apparently they were. The SD's over ~10 had 1 shot in there that was high ES and ruined SD, otherwise, except for that 1 in the group of those, everything pretty much under 11.

I know a lot of people like H4895, but as you can see here, even if I count 4 best shots in each group, nothing is sub MOA. Next week, probably similar test with RL16, using a variety of bullets, and a retest to confirm good loads so far using this barrel.
View attachment 7340569
To be fair, you’d probably see better results at 100yds especially with the heavier/longer bullets. They really need to “stretch their legs” a little...50yds they’re just getting going. I do load confirmation at 100yds and shoot my top three at 300yds to see what happens

I load my 80gr ELDs to 2.285”.
 
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semperfireloading

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Hello, I am not sure why or who started the myth that it becomes more accurate the farther you go out, this is totally not true. No offense, with respect, just telling you the truth. Its not possible except by luck. yYou can see though on my site, I test at 50 and 100, and even 200. I like 50 the best, I can aim at a tiny tiny spot and I feel I have least error from there from the clarity of the target. I totally understand, most people like 100 yards, and that is pretty much the standard. I have many pages of 100 yard, and even some 200 yards up. When I find a load that I like, I am going to 500 meters to group it 10 shot groups. Then we can look at that.
 

AKGuide

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I see you are using OAL’s. But how far are the bullets jumping. A few of the bullets you list have small jump windows they like and you may benefit from a windowed mag to load longer if you have a long freebore barrel like myself.
 

C_R_Slacker

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224 may be a little finicky, but it's not impossible to load for. I think that dude that's tried hundreds of loads through several barrels is doing something wrong, or has a scope issue. Dumb luck would have found at least one combo that produced good results.
 

semperfireloading

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Hello, I am using a Trijicon Accupower 5x50 56MM obj scope. tried 3 different scope mounts, on 4 different uppers, same results. So its not scope issue.
I also, ruled out that it is me, covered that in previous posts. I have no mirage at the range, cyrstal clear visible target. I don't rush shooting next groups, barrel never gets super hot.

AKGuide, for 77 grain and less bullets, I am typically jumping the bullet 20k, for almost all loads, while VLD bullets 77, 80, etc, I am "touching the lands" in most loads, but tried jumping, tried a lot.

I also have 1 non SAAMI chamber that is about ~50k longer freebore. That barrel cares less what OAL you use, I got around 1 MOA from jumping 90k or so on a few loads.

I look forward to learning more about this cartridge and seeing more people, in person, shoot it. I am hoping to see somebody one day, shoot some 10 shot groups, then speak with them on their experience, so I can learn something perhaps I have not considered.

I am currently researching building the bolt Valkyrie, but I need to ask for some help. I don't know. Bighorn Orgin action, Barlien LH Gain twist barrel from Mile high, KRG stock, Triggertech trigger, sounds like the play. I also have 2 little bastard muzzle devices, and 3 different Precision armament M4-72 which is probably the best I have. I have 3 chrono's, and typically use Magnetospeed Sporter.

Here is a bunch of targets with this Rainier Barrel. You can see on right, with no flyers, I have a couple 5 shot groups pretty good. CR Slacker maybe got me here, Dumb luck? I am pretty dumb sometimes:)
 
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C_R_Slacker

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Hello, I am using a Trijicon Accupower 5x50 56MM obj scope. tried 3 different scope mounts, on 4 different uppers, same results. So its not scope issue.
I also, ruled out that it is me, covered that in previous posts. I have no mirage at the range, cyrstal clear visible target. I don't rush shooting next groups, barrel never gets super hot.

AKGuide, for 77 grain and less bullets, I am typically jumping the bullet 20k, for almost all loads, while VLD bullets 77, 80, etc, I am "touching the lands" in most loads, but tried jumping, tried a lot.

I also have 1 non SAAMI chamber that is about ~50k longer freebore. That barrel cares less what OAL you use, I got around 1 MOA from jumping 90k or so on a few loads.

I look forward to learning more about this cartridge and seeing more people, in person, shoot it. I am hoping to see somebody one day, shoot some 10 shot groups, then speak with them on their experience, so I can learn something perhaps I have not considered.

I am currently researching building the bolt Valkyrie, but I need to ask for some help. I don't know. Bighorn Orgin action, Barlien LH Gain twist barrel from Mile high, KRG stock, Triggertech trigger, sounds like the play. I also have 2 little bastard muzzle devices, and 3 different Precision armament M4-72 which is probably the best I have. I have 3 chrono's, and typically use Magnetospeed Sporter.

Here is a bunch of targets with this Rainier Barrel. You can see on right, with no flyers, I have a couple 5 shot groups pretty good. CR Slacker maybe got me here, Dumb luck? I am pretty dumb sometimes:)
Hey man...I'm not trying to bust your balls. I've done a little reloading for valkyrie. Found a good load with 80 smk and cfe 223. Found another good load with 85.5 bergers and ar-comp. I'm just saying it sounds like something is wrong with your process or your scope. With the number of combinations you've tried, random chance should have produced a good load. Don't be afraid to try jumping the bullet more. I'm talking. 050"-.120". Just make sure it's a starting load with the powder you're using because seating the bullet deeper will change initial pressure.
 
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semperfireloading

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Right on man, I will keep trying:) Check out my 5.56 site where I did exact same thing as with valkyrie and 9 MM. Just saying..I had/have none of these issues with the 5.56 testing. I tested the process many times, to eliminate potential issues. After the years, I have the process pretty dialed, but keep improving.

Another thing, to your point, is that most of my loads, you can see are at max pressure, or more than max book pressure. So in near future, I will be testing 1 grain to .5 grains below max, and I heard that is much better from several reputable parties.

Thanks again for feedback, appreciate you.
 
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SilencedShooter11B

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Hello, I am not sure why or who started the myth that it becomes more accurate the farther you go out, this is totally not true. No offense, with respect, just telling you the truth. Its not possible except by luck. yYou can see though on my site, I test at 50 and 100, and even 200. I like 50 the best, I can aim at a tiny tiny spot and I feel I have least error from there from the clarity of the target. I totally understand, most people like 100 yards, and that is pretty much the standard. I have many pages of 100 yard, and even some 200 yards up. When I find a load that I like, I am going to 500 meters to group it 10 shot groups. Then we can look at that.
A guy you may have heard of named Brian Litz explains the physics of the concept in a book he wrote.

I’m not the end all-be all expert on this subject, simply passing along what I’ve read in regards to an aspect of bullet flight: length-width-rpm. When shooting a 224 Valkyrie, the 90gr SMK would be more prone to this than a shorter 52gr SMK.

He’s got some videos out on YT about it

 

semperfireloading

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HI, thank you for the link. Ironically, and funny you posted, next range outing I am testing at 200 yards. Good timing on the video!
 

semperfireloading

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Hi Guys. CR_SLacker, thank you. You were right. The scope mount was the issue. I just mounted it for that page of groups above, and that is why its all 1.5-2 MOA, etc. I went back to older mount from previous group testing pages, where I did sub MOA on several groups, then I loaded up some 80.5 Berger Full Bore, and I went to 200 YARDS. Where I aced some groups, super good.

.67" group at 200 yards? That is pretty damn good from any AR platform. Real good. Then you can see several groups from 1.1 to 1.5, which is .5-.7 MOA. I made mistake and shot first shot of H4895 at wrong target, then took note of each shot, which is the ONLY Hornady ELD-M bullet in there, everything else Berger 80.5. Also, if I didn't get a flyer on the SW Precision Rifle load, that would be .2 MOA, that were stacking on top of each other. Thats 26 grains. "

OAL was 2.250, berger 80.5 Full bore hits SAAMI chamber lands at 2.270.

The N135 and the H4895 did not cycle gun and put next round in chamber for some reason. Those 2 loads marked up the brass and were super HOT. All the lesser HOT loads, cycled 100% no issue. Not sure why the super hot loads didn't cycle it. BTW, one of those H4895 loads was just under 3,000 FPS. SUPER HOT.

IMR 4166, I just shot because I am trying to use that powder up. I HATE that powder. That and AA2495 get stuck in all my powder droppers, always causing a mess, because the STICKS on those 2 powders are enormous. They are simply not worth the hassle in auto droppers like Dillon R550, or etc etc etc. I loaded all these by hand, so no issue. Still hate them. lol

OK NOW WE ARE IN BUSINESS. Thank ALL of you gentlemen for your advice and direction, I appreciate your input.

STATS UP!!: Almost 1600 lbs of engery with 22" barrel with H4895. Smokin hot load. no blown primers though..but its too hot, brass is 1 and done.
one thing also, about Reloader 16. 27.5 grains is to the TOP of the case, all the way. and 27 grains is half way up the case neck, 26.5 is bottom of case neck. Even 27, half way up the case neck, I had zero issues seating bullets to 2.250. I will try 27.5 next.

Ill be back with 20 more loads, testing from 200 again, real soon. Met a great guy at range, who shoots and builds Valkyrie rifles. I talked to him to listen to his perspectives for an hour.

Oops error on that...ELD-M is 80, not 80.5!
 
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Triple D

Trigger Monkey
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Glad you got it figured out. H4895 can vary a bit by lot on speed. Your velocity is about 5fps faster than I get with a 24”, so you likely need to drop just a bit, maybe .3-.4gr. H4895 gets decent jumps in speed from minor changes. There should be a node in the 2900-2930fps range that isn’t as bad on brass that gives sub 5fps std. dev, good velocity and great precision.

Are you running a JP SCS w/ the +2? I know some ppl have had issues with the SCS and h4895.
 

Jackomason

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Played with the valkyrie some today. Side by side with my 6.5 creed. Neither of which I had good data for so I got to play with the weaponized math. They pretty well shared data.
 
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AKGuide

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What Triple D said. There is a node with H4895 in 24” Bbl’s around 2925 +\-15fps. It’s better on brass and you can normally reload 2-4 times before the pockets are done. I tried to go higher and primers wouldn’t stay seated (super glue held them for final firing). Also once you are there try jumping the 80 eldm’s 0.035”-0.045” you may be able to match the Berger full bore groups with the higher bc eldm.
Reuben
 

Simonsza1

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Hey guys question, Wilson combat SS that I bought one of there 20” Valkyrie barrels for to convert over for my wife to get her feet wet in the long range game eventually once the brass is piled up will reload I suppose even though factory shoots great. I have a substantial amount of 69 smk left over from the 20” 5.56 barrel that was on there and was wondering if there worth it out of the Valkyrie she will mainly be under 600yds
 

MarinePMI

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I'm having a hard time following you, without any punctuation or sentence structure...
 

TACC

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Worked with the WOA 24 Inch today,

Less than .50 moa all day long, it was shooting both 75 grain federal, and 88 grain hornady factory rounds.

I was surprised at 100 yards all of it was shot and the 75 grain did not have any huge poi change from the 88's.

Tried just using bipod and rear bag today and surprisingly it was very accurate, better than I expected.
20200606_103108.jpg
 

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