Anyone try IMR 8133 yet?
- Thread starter CanSniper
- Start date
I have a very important question to ask. I'm especially interested in Gilamonster101's response.
I am about to receive a GAP Crusader in 6.5 PRC that I recently purchased as a pre-built rifle on GAPs website.
I plan to reload for this rifle at some point, but for the time being, I went ahead and purchased two cases of the Hornday 147 grain ELD Match factory ammo. I was told by the GAP sales rep that this factory ammo runs about 20 to 30 thou off the lands in my rifle.
However, I discovered a thread that said some rifles in 6.5 PRC were using a reamer with a 0.130" free bore length that would put the Hornady 147 grain factory match ammo into the lands, and that Hornady was now recommending a 0.188" free bore length which would put their 147 grain match ammo more than 40 thou off the lands.
When I asked the GAP sales rep about this, I was told that my new rifle was based on the 0.130" free bore and that all GAP rifles in 6.5 PRC are using that free bore reamer. At that point, he checked further and admitted he had mispoke and confirmed that the factory 147 grain match ammo was "just at the lands". However, he assured me I should not have any concerns about over-pressure.
I know Gilamonster101 is using a new GAP Team Rifle and I'm wondering what his experience is with the 147 grain factory ammo. I have confirmed I have the exact same lot number, and my new rifle also uses a Bartlein 26" 1:8 twist barrel with the APA FB Gen 2 muzzle break.
I'm also interested in any other people's comments on this as well.
Thanks
I am about to receive a GAP Crusader in 6.5 PRC that I recently purchased as a pre-built rifle on GAPs website.
I plan to reload for this rifle at some point, but for the time being, I went ahead and purchased two cases of the Hornday 147 grain ELD Match factory ammo. I was told by the GAP sales rep that this factory ammo runs about 20 to 30 thou off the lands in my rifle.
However, I discovered a thread that said some rifles in 6.5 PRC were using a reamer with a 0.130" free bore length that would put the Hornady 147 grain factory match ammo into the lands, and that Hornady was now recommending a 0.188" free bore length which would put their 147 grain match ammo more than 40 thou off the lands.
When I asked the GAP sales rep about this, I was told that my new rifle was based on the 0.130" free bore and that all GAP rifles in 6.5 PRC are using that free bore reamer. At that point, he checked further and admitted he had mispoke and confirmed that the factory 147 grain match ammo was "just at the lands". However, he assured me I should not have any concerns about over-pressure.
I know Gilamonster101 is using a new GAP Team Rifle and I'm wondering what his experience is with the 147 grain factory ammo. I have confirmed I have the exact same lot number, and my new rifle also uses a Bartlein 26" 1:8 twist barrel with the APA FB Gen 2 muzzle break.
I'm also interested in any other people's comments on this as well.
Thanks
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I’m pretty sure I have seen George say that they are building with the .188 reamer. When you get the rifle, drop one of the factory cartridges in. If it drops in and falls out easily you are o.k. Another option would be to pick up an OAL tool and modified case and take a bullet and check to see where the lands are directly. If you are going to be reloading, you will want those tools anyway and it’s a small investment to giv you peace of mind.
Thanks for the response.
Your comment that George says GAP is using the 0.188" reamer is in direct conflict with what I was told by the sales rep.
That has me very concerned.
With regard to measuring OAL to the lands, I already have those tools, so I could easily check, but the truth is, I am seriously considering cancelling my purchase if the factory ammo is right on the lands and all new 6.5 PRC rifles from GAP are using the .188" reamer.
Thanks
Your comment that George says GAP is using the 0.188" reamer is in direct conflict with what I was told by the sales rep.
That has me very concerned.
With regard to measuring OAL to the lands, I already have those tools, so I could easily check, but the truth is, I am seriously considering cancelling my purchase if the factory ammo is right on the lands and all new 6.5 PRC rifles from GAP are using the .188" reamer.
Thanks
I just spoke with Jeremy Riddle at GAP. He said he spoke with George the other day about this topic, and he has confirmed in no uncertain terms that GAP is currently using the .130" reamer for all their 6.5 PRC builds.
I would be shocked beyond belief if a GAP sales rep would directly lie to a customer, so I have to assume this to be the case.
He has also assured me that he has checked my new rifle personally and confirmed the bolt closes smoothly on the factory ammo, opens easily after firing, and that there is no evidence of over pressue on the fired case (I had them run the barrel break-in process for me to save me time and aggravation).
When I asked if they thought about going to the new .188" free bore, he told me that would put the factory ammo more than 40 thou off the lands and their preference is to stay within 20 thou of the lands on all their builds.
I have to take all this at face value. They are assuring me there is no evidence of pressure with factory ammo, they guarantee 3/8" MOA accuracy at 100 yards with this rifle, and they are estimating a barrel life of 1800 to 2000 rounds.
If all this holds true, I should be very happy with this rifle.
I'll keep you all posted.
I would be shocked beyond belief if a GAP sales rep would directly lie to a customer, so I have to assume this to be the case.
He has also assured me that he has checked my new rifle personally and confirmed the bolt closes smoothly on the factory ammo, opens easily after firing, and that there is no evidence of over pressue on the fired case (I had them run the barrel break-in process for me to save me time and aggravation).
When I asked if they thought about going to the new .188" free bore, he told me that would put the factory ammo more than 40 thou off the lands and their preference is to stay within 20 thou of the lands on all their builds.
I have to take all this at face value. They are assuring me there is no evidence of pressure with factory ammo, they guarantee 3/8" MOA accuracy at 100 yards with this rifle, and they are estimating a barrel life of 1800 to 2000 rounds.
If all this holds true, I should be very happy with this rifle.
I'll keep you all posted.
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Interesting, and good info for others with GAP builds. In my 6.5 PRC (done w/ a .188 reamer), the factory ammo is about .045 off the lands, which matches what Jeremy said. But note that the math says that if the factory loads are .045 off the lands with the .188 reamer, then they will be jammed .013 with the .130 reamer. That doesn’t mean pressure will be an issue, but it does mean pressure will be higher than if not jammed. Also FWIW, my experience has been that the ELDs like to be about .050 off, but YMMV. I have a couple GAP rifles (not the 6.5 PRC) and they are top notch, I’m sure you will be happy.
Thanks for the info.
I agree with your math and that was my main concern with the .130" reamer and the Hornady factory ammo.
Jeremy said he marked a factory round with a sharpie and chambered it in my rifle. All that happended was some of the ink was removed where the ogive starts but there was no marring of the copper. Again, I suppose I have to take what he says at face value. I'm not sure how a bullet would look when it's pushed .013" into the lands.
I don't have any expeience running the ELD's, but your comment has me thinking I should perhaps consider other bullets when I start reloading. My thought was to purchase some 130 and 140 grain ELD-Ms and work up loads using H1000 (you can't find any RL-26 for your life these days).
What would you do in this situation? Any thoughts on bullet choices, given the .130" reamer? Do you think I should possibly reconsider this purchase?
What strikes me is GAP was a major player in creating the 6.5 PRC. This is one reason I felt a 6.5 PRC GAP build would have to be pretty much top-notch.
Thanks again for the feedback.
I agree with your math and that was my main concern with the .130" reamer and the Hornady factory ammo.
Jeremy said he marked a factory round with a sharpie and chambered it in my rifle. All that happended was some of the ink was removed where the ogive starts but there was no marring of the copper. Again, I suppose I have to take what he says at face value. I'm not sure how a bullet would look when it's pushed .013" into the lands.
I don't have any expeience running the ELD's, but your comment has me thinking I should perhaps consider other bullets when I start reloading. My thought was to purchase some 130 and 140 grain ELD-Ms and work up loads using H1000 (you can't find any RL-26 for your life these days).
What would you do in this situation? Any thoughts on bullet choices, given the .130" reamer? Do you think I should possibly reconsider this purchase?
What strikes me is GAP was a major player in creating the 6.5 PRC. This is one reason I felt a 6.5 PRC GAP build would have to be pretty much top-notch.
Thanks again for the feedback.
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The rifles I have from GAP are great, so I think whatever you buy from them will be solid. I’m just starting load development on my 6.5PRC, currently working with a 150 SMK and H1000. With the .188 reamer, I have to jump it a long way, so for that bullet the .130 reamer might have been a better choice. I have also shot some 140 JLKs and 147 ELDs, not enough to have an established load but enough to be pretty confident that I can get good results with them. I’ve used Retumbo, H1000 and RL26, currently focusing on H1000 because it is readily available and I also use it for my 300WM.
I think if you are handloading you won’t have any problem finding a good load for your rifle. You could even try seating the factory ammo a little deeeper and see what the effect is. And IIRC the 140 ELDs are maybe .045 shorter, so that might be a good place to start. I think bullet selection really depends on what you plan to use it for, but there are a lot of good choices for 6.5 bullets and the PRC case gives you a lot of flexibility. Only way yo know wha gives the results you want is to try it and see.
I think if you are handloading you won’t have any problem finding a good load for your rifle. You could even try seating the factory ammo a little deeeper and see what the effect is. And IIRC the 140 ELDs are maybe .045 shorter, so that might be a good place to start. I think bullet selection really depends on what you plan to use it for, but there are a lot of good choices for 6.5 bullets and the PRC case gives you a lot of flexibility. Only way yo know wha gives the results you want is to try it and see.
Thanks for the great feedback! Also found the thread where you posted your measurements to the lands with a number of different bullets. Thanks for that!
I'm hopeful the 400 rounds of Hornady 147 grain ELD Match ammo I bought will work fine while I work up a superb handload for my new rifle..
Bye-the-way, I just got this message from Ken Lin at GAP:
.130" FB is current GAP standard. please let me know if you have any other questions.
--
Ken Lin
GA Precision
Professional Quality Rifles and Equipment
Mailing and Shipping Address:
1141 Swift Street
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Office: (816) 221 - 1844 ext. 1
Fax: (816) 421 - 4160
Email: [email protected]
Online at GAPrecision.net
I'm hopeful the 400 rounds of Hornady 147 grain ELD Match ammo I bought will work fine while I work up a superb handload for my new rifle..
Bye-the-way, I just got this message from Ken Lin at GAP:
.130" FB is current GAP standard. please let me know if you have any other questions.
--
Ken Lin
GA Precision
Professional Quality Rifles and Equipment
Mailing and Shipping Address:
1141 Swift Street
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Office: (816) 221 - 1844 ext. 1
Fax: (816) 421 - 4160
Email: [email protected]
Online at GAPrecision.net
Cap deck,
Sorry so long to reply.
My GAP Team Rifle came with a 1/3 MOA guarantee and it shoots 1/4” with factory ammo. No over pressure and never once hard to chamber or a hard bolt lift.
Not sure of what my jump to the lands is.
Mine is built on a Tempest short action and the factory ammo is at max mag length, I couldn’t go longer if I tried.
I’m at 1200 rounds now and we had some fun hitting shot after shot yesterday at 1500yds.
Basically, I’d say let them do whatever it is that they do and you’ll be astonished by the results. It’s never a good idea to hire someone who is amongst the best in the business and tell them how to do their job. I don’t mean that to sound rude in any way. I’m just saying don’t sweat which reamer they choose to use. You won’t need to load these hot, completely unnecessary. I’ve taken the factory out to 1675 so far and it’s no problem... kind of feels like I’m cheating.
Enjoy it and let us know how it shoots.
Sorry so long to reply.
My GAP Team Rifle came with a 1/3 MOA guarantee and it shoots 1/4” with factory ammo. No over pressure and never once hard to chamber or a hard bolt lift.
Not sure of what my jump to the lands is.
Mine is built on a Tempest short action and the factory ammo is at max mag length, I couldn’t go longer if I tried.
I’m at 1200 rounds now and we had some fun hitting shot after shot yesterday at 1500yds.
Basically, I’d say let them do whatever it is that they do and you’ll be astonished by the results. It’s never a good idea to hire someone who is amongst the best in the business and tell them how to do their job. I don’t mean that to sound rude in any way. I’m just saying don’t sweat which reamer they choose to use. You won’t need to load these hot, completely unnecessary. I’ve taken the factory out to 1675 so far and it’s no problem... kind of feels like I’m cheating.
Enjoy it and let us know how it shoots.
Thanks for the reponse Gilamonster101!
I really wasn't trying to tell GAP how to do their job. I was simply told by their sales rep the 147 grain factory ammo was "20 to 30 thou off the lands" and then discovered the information regarding the two different reamers. All I did was ask GAP if they could simply clarify this, and at that point, they had to retract that statement and confirm the 147 grain factory ammo was in fact "at the lands".
Given your very positive experience with the same lot of 147 grain factory ammo that I received, my next goal was to simply verify our rifles would be based on the same reamer. That certainly appears to be the case. We are both using short actions (my rifle uses the Templar action) and identical barrels. Given this info, and the fact you are having excellent results running the factory ammo in your rifle, I should expect similar results with my rifle. And that makes me feel more confident with my purchase. I know GAP is one of the top precision rifle makers in the US today, but the fact is, I was told something that didn't seem to make sense with the known available data, and I've become a pretty consistent "trust but verify" kind of guy over the years.
My new rifle arrives Monday. I went with the Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 F1 scope that GAP mounted for me, and they're sending the complete rig in one of their customized SKB cases. All I need to do when it arrives is finish sighting in the new scope and I should be ready to go. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again for the great feedback Gilamonster101!
I really wasn't trying to tell GAP how to do their job. I was simply told by their sales rep the 147 grain factory ammo was "20 to 30 thou off the lands" and then discovered the information regarding the two different reamers. All I did was ask GAP if they could simply clarify this, and at that point, they had to retract that statement and confirm the 147 grain factory ammo was in fact "at the lands".
Given your very positive experience with the same lot of 147 grain factory ammo that I received, my next goal was to simply verify our rifles would be based on the same reamer. That certainly appears to be the case. We are both using short actions (my rifle uses the Templar action) and identical barrels. Given this info, and the fact you are having excellent results running the factory ammo in your rifle, I should expect similar results with my rifle. And that makes me feel more confident with my purchase. I know GAP is one of the top precision rifle makers in the US today, but the fact is, I was told something that didn't seem to make sense with the known available data, and I've become a pretty consistent "trust but verify" kind of guy over the years.
My new rifle arrives Monday. I went with the Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 F1 scope that GAP mounted for me, and they're sending the complete rig in one of their customized SKB cases. All I need to do when it arrives is finish sighting in the new scope and I should be ready to go. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again for the great feedback Gilamonster101!
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Capdek,
Monday! That’s soon. Lucky you. Enjoy it and be sure to give us a report once you go thru the barrel break in. I expect that you’ll be smiling for quite a while. And if you hate it and want to sell it PM me first please. I’ll take it
Monday! That’s soon. Lucky you. Enjoy it and be sure to give us a report once you go thru the barrel break in. I expect that you’ll be smiling for quite a while. And if you hate it and want to sell it PM me first please. I’ll take it
Hey Gilamonster101,
Just got an update from FedEx that the rifle will be arriving today! Hoefully, I'll get a chance to try it out Saturday.
I decided to splurge and have them do the barrel break-in process for me. It was only $200 and having them do it will save me a ton of time and aggravation.
Bye-the way, if I do hate the new rifle for some unfathomable reason, you'll have dibs on it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to love it after hearing your experience. So I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you!
I've been researching this whole .130" versus .188" free bore issue, and if we go out on a limb and assume reducing bullet jump increases accuracy, it seems like the .130" reamer is the better way to go in a short action.
For those who want 'best accuracy' and opt for the .188" reamer, it appears the better choice would be a medium action build.
I spoke with my local gunsmith and he is pretty convinced Hornady introduced the .188" reamer to allow for a safer and wider range of ammunition choices for factory short action rifle builds - especially factory hunting rifles. He said if you are specifically building for top accuracy on a short action, the .130" reamer is likely a better choice for the majority of .264" bullets on the market today. If you are building for top accuracy and you're wanting to use the longest, heaviest bullets available, a better choice might be a medium action build using the .188" reamer.
I think I read the .130" reamer has a neck diameter of .296" while the .188" reamer has a neck diameter of .299". This all fits for claiming the new reamer has increased tolerance to support safer operation with a wider variety of ammunition as compared to the old reamer with its much tighter tolerance.
There seems to be a number of folks out there that want to follow Hornady's lead and go with the latest .188" reamer and that is forcing them to switch to a medium or long action build to stay close to the lands. There is a fairly detailed discussion about this on the Shooter's Forum website.
It will be interesting to see how this new cartridge evolves over time, but it seems clear it was originally designed by GAP and Hornady to run in a short action. We'll see how it goes I guess.
Again thanks for the feedback.
Just got an update from FedEx that the rifle will be arriving today! Hoefully, I'll get a chance to try it out Saturday.
I decided to splurge and have them do the barrel break-in process for me. It was only $200 and having them do it will save me a ton of time and aggravation.
Bye-the way, if I do hate the new rifle for some unfathomable reason, you'll have dibs on it, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to love it after hearing your experience. So I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you!
I've been researching this whole .130" versus .188" free bore issue, and if we go out on a limb and assume reducing bullet jump increases accuracy, it seems like the .130" reamer is the better way to go in a short action.
For those who want 'best accuracy' and opt for the .188" reamer, it appears the better choice would be a medium action build.
I spoke with my local gunsmith and he is pretty convinced Hornady introduced the .188" reamer to allow for a safer and wider range of ammunition choices for factory short action rifle builds - especially factory hunting rifles. He said if you are specifically building for top accuracy on a short action, the .130" reamer is likely a better choice for the majority of .264" bullets on the market today. If you are building for top accuracy and you're wanting to use the longest, heaviest bullets available, a better choice might be a medium action build using the .188" reamer.
I think I read the .130" reamer has a neck diameter of .296" while the .188" reamer has a neck diameter of .299". This all fits for claiming the new reamer has increased tolerance to support safer operation with a wider variety of ammunition as compared to the old reamer with its much tighter tolerance.
There seems to be a number of folks out there that want to follow Hornady's lead and go with the latest .188" reamer and that is forcing them to switch to a medium or long action build to stay close to the lands. There is a fairly detailed discussion about this on the Shooter's Forum website.
It will be interesting to see how this new cartridge evolves over time, but it seems clear it was originally designed by GAP and Hornady to run in a short action. We'll see how it goes I guess.
Again thanks for the feedback.
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That makes sense. Hope you got to shoot your new rifle this weekend. We had a great ELR session yesterday... out to 1850. Total blast!
Hey all, just stopping buy to share my load data for my Christensen Arms Mesa Long Range with 26" barrel, shooting the 147 eldm, CCIBR2, Hornady brass and 56.2 gr of H1000. Bullets are seated at 0,015" off lands and getting a velocity of 2861 fps, SD of 5.1, COL of 2.975" (forgot what my CBTO is).
PS: I'm aware that it could be loaded to faster velocities but I am not chasing velocity as much as I'm chasing accuracy and low SD's.
PS: I'm aware that it could be loaded to faster velocities but I am not chasing velocity as much as I'm chasing accuracy and low SD's.
Good evening everyone, this is my very first post on SH. I needed to join because after searching the web high and low this seemed to be the only concentration of shooters experimenting and posting results with their PRC's, and I could use some input.
I decided to have 6.5PRC built, and the gunsmith and I broke down an old Rem 721 and fit a new Bartlein barrel to it. We used whatever leftover stock he had lying around and now Im in business.... this is a 1.25" tapered to 1" , 27" 1:8 twist 5r barrel. I felt so bad for the dinky action, I ended up full length bedding the damn thing. Doing so was against every fabric in my body. I can always take material back out if its a flop... maybe it is....
I was not impressed with the rifles performance with the factory Hornady 143's we shot. The groups at best were 1 MOA at 100. I feel as if I have been hearing that folks have been having good results with their PRC's shooting factory ammo and obtaining tight groups. Couple things noted..... Pretty high pressure... the primers were extremely flattened. We noted consistent velocities around 2950.
For whatever reason its impossible for me to get my hands on any of the popular powders for this rig.... cant find RL26, cant find Retumbo... blah blah blah. I did have some H4831 sitting around and as far as I could tell nobody was using and posting results of this powder online. I loaded some Hornady 143's. These loads were .001" off lands, used cci br2's and neck sized.
Without boring you all to death with a list of results, Ill summarize.... I started with loads around 2780fps and had ragged hole five shot groups. Very impressive - especially with a full length bed job right? As I worked the loads hotter, and above 3000fps, the groups opened up... never more than a moa though. Immediately I thought to myself, whats the point of this rifle, if I could've achieved these results from a Creedmore? I can live with tight groups at a slower velocity... but thats not why I put this rifle together exactly. I will say that the velocities achieved with this powder were extremely consistent, all within 10fps with many many duplicates.
Questions;
1)Has anyone experienced crummy results with their new PRC while shooting factory ammo?
2) Is there anyone out there who prefers H4831 with their PRC?
3) Ive heard of guys achieving better results with a bit of a jump to the lands. Should I get away from the lands more?
4) Is there anyone out there currently shooting lighter bullets.... say the 123amax with good results?
Happy Easter, and thank you in advance for any input you can offer.
I decided to have 6.5PRC built, and the gunsmith and I broke down an old Rem 721 and fit a new Bartlein barrel to it. We used whatever leftover stock he had lying around and now Im in business.... this is a 1.25" tapered to 1" , 27" 1:8 twist 5r barrel. I felt so bad for the dinky action, I ended up full length bedding the damn thing. Doing so was against every fabric in my body. I can always take material back out if its a flop... maybe it is....
I was not impressed with the rifles performance with the factory Hornady 143's we shot. The groups at best were 1 MOA at 100. I feel as if I have been hearing that folks have been having good results with their PRC's shooting factory ammo and obtaining tight groups. Couple things noted..... Pretty high pressure... the primers were extremely flattened. We noted consistent velocities around 2950.
For whatever reason its impossible for me to get my hands on any of the popular powders for this rig.... cant find RL26, cant find Retumbo... blah blah blah. I did have some H4831 sitting around and as far as I could tell nobody was using and posting results of this powder online. I loaded some Hornady 143's. These loads were .001" off lands, used cci br2's and neck sized.
Without boring you all to death with a list of results, Ill summarize.... I started with loads around 2780fps and had ragged hole five shot groups. Very impressive - especially with a full length bed job right? As I worked the loads hotter, and above 3000fps, the groups opened up... never more than a moa though. Immediately I thought to myself, whats the point of this rifle, if I could've achieved these results from a Creedmore? I can live with tight groups at a slower velocity... but thats not why I put this rifle together exactly. I will say that the velocities achieved with this powder were extremely consistent, all within 10fps with many many duplicates.
Questions;
1)Has anyone experienced crummy results with their new PRC while shooting factory ammo?
2) Is there anyone out there who prefers H4831 with their PRC?
3) Ive heard of guys achieving better results with a bit of a jump to the lands. Should I get away from the lands more?
4) Is there anyone out there currently shooting lighter bullets.... say the 123amax with good results?
Happy Easter, and thank you in advance for any input you can offer.
Mine hates the 143 factory load. To the tune of 1.5-2moa while the 147s have settled in to around half moa. Primers are flat on both, 143 PH produces hard bolt lift occasionally and brass is much harder to rechamber than from the 147 match.
In speaking with my smith who has built many he has seen a lot of good results from 4831sc.
He also suggested his best accuracy was often 20-30 thousand off with the eld bullets. My first reloads are almost finished and will be rl26 under a 147 20 thousand off. Hope that was useful in some way.
In speaking with my smith who has built many he has seen a lot of good results from 4831sc.
He also suggested his best accuracy was often 20-30 thousand off with the eld bullets. My first reloads are almost finished and will be rl26 under a 147 20 thousand off. Hope that was useful in some way.
What reamer was used? There is the original 130 (?) free bore, then the 180 freebore came out to accommodate the factory ammo, to load them to a COAL of 2.95 (I can't remember what the Ogive measurement is).
This is helpful information, thank you. Seems like a far jump. Anything to do with fitting in magazine or 100% for use of accuracy? I could care less about fitting in magazine. I ordered 147's and when I get the chance will load up and report.
Honestly no clue. Will reach out to GS and get back to yah. Thanks.
Built on a .130 reamer so not to do with mag figment. Factory ammo is jammed slightly. Though I did notice my 143 box was 10 thousandths longer than the 147s
Typical short action magazines restrictions being what they are and if in fact Hornady’s factory ammo offerings, specifically the 147 ELD-M load, shoot better when seated near or in the lands, why did Hornady finalize the SAAMI chamber with the longer .188 throat?
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GAP 6.5PRC, I ordered an Xtreme Hunter but made too many changes and it just became a Custom.
24" Bartlein #3 Fluted
APA Micro Bastard
Manners EH-1A
Tempest Action
TT Diamond Flatty @ 1lb
First 20 rounds for zeroing and barrel break-in were with Factory 143 ELD-X. Cleaned between every shot for the first 10 then again after the next 5rds at the 15 and 20 mark.
Avg. 2932
SD 30.2
I ordered some Copper Creek loads to see how they would do and this is what I had, all strings were 5 shots.
CC 143 ELD-X tighter groups than with the factory loads, I'd say around 1/2". I pulled a flier that was all me so I didn't measure the group.
Avg. 3015
SD 12
CC 140 Hybrids - Group opened up pretty good and they were all over the place within a 2" circle.
Avg. 3095
SD 7.9
CC 140 Elite Hunters - Group was larger than 143 group but were vertically perfect. The spread was all horizontal within an 1-1/2".
Avg. 3077
SD 17.6
The Berger groups really opened up, may have been me or could have been the speed but the Factory and CC 143 loads were by far my favorites. I have only put these 35rds through to date so definitely need some more time at the range.
24" Bartlein #3 Fluted
APA Micro Bastard
Manners EH-1A
Tempest Action
TT Diamond Flatty @ 1lb
First 20 rounds for zeroing and barrel break-in were with Factory 143 ELD-X. Cleaned between every shot for the first 10 then again after the next 5rds at the 15 and 20 mark.
Avg. 2932
SD 30.2
I ordered some Copper Creek loads to see how they would do and this is what I had, all strings were 5 shots.
CC 143 ELD-X tighter groups than with the factory loads, I'd say around 1/2". I pulled a flier that was all me so I didn't measure the group.
Avg. 3015
SD 12
CC 140 Hybrids - Group opened up pretty good and they were all over the place within a 2" circle.
Avg. 3095
SD 7.9
CC 140 Elite Hunters - Group was larger than 143 group but were vertically perfect. The spread was all horizontal within an 1-1/2".
Avg. 3077
SD 17.6
The Berger groups really opened up, may have been me or could have been the speed but the Factory and CC 143 loads were by far my favorites. I have only put these 35rds through to date so definitely need some more time at the range.
Not everyone agrees that the ELDs shoot better in or near the lands. I just completed load development and .035 off was the optimum in my rifle for the load I settled on. I’ve been told by others that .050 was optimum. For a .035-.050 jump, the .188 throat is just a about perfect.
I have a question if that's OK.
I notice that every fired round (only 20 so far) out of my new GAP Crusader in 6.5 PRC has a distinct scratch on the shoulder that starts just below the neck and extends a little ways down the side of the case. It's not very deep - it's mostly cosmetic - but it takes quite a bit of rubbing with 0000 steel wool to remove it. It doesn't happen when I eject an unfired cartridge. I only see it on ejection after firing. I've attached a photo so people can see what I'm talking about. My first thought was maybe there's a tiny burr in the chamber. But I sent the photo to the folks at GAP and asked about it and was told the following:
Anyway, I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced shooters here just to be sure this is normal.
Thanks for the help.
I notice that every fired round (only 20 so far) out of my new GAP Crusader in 6.5 PRC has a distinct scratch on the shoulder that starts just below the neck and extends a little ways down the side of the case. It's not very deep - it's mostly cosmetic - but it takes quite a bit of rubbing with 0000 steel wool to remove it. It doesn't happen when I eject an unfired cartridge. I only see it on ejection after firing. I've attached a photo so people can see what I'm talking about. My first thought was maybe there's a tiny burr in the chamber. But I sent the photo to the folks at GAP and asked about it and was told the following:
Based on their response, this appears to be common to rifles with positive plunger ejection. My only other bolt action rifle is a Winchester Model 70 SG in 7mm-08 and I certainly don't see a scratch like this on my fired 7mm-08 brass. But since the GAP Crusader uses the Templar action which I'm pretty sure is based on a Remington action, comparing the two rifles would be like comparing apples to oranges as the saying goes.
Anyway, I was hoping to get some feedback from some of the more experienced shooters here just to be sure this is normal.
Thanks for the help.
Attachments
I'm waiting for PVA to start work on my barrel so no actual experience.
I'm wondering if Reloder 33 might not be a good choice for heavy bullets.
Has anyone tried RL-33?
I'm wondering if Reloder 33 might not be a good choice for heavy bullets.
Has anyone tried RL-33?
????
He means LRX. It’s on my to do list, but have worked up a load yet.
RL-26 is the king of 6.5 PRC.. I use RL-33 in my 338 AI
Now if they would get enough made to satisfy the current market demand. I have not seen any but a couple 1# cans either locally or online since January. Let alone H1000, or Retumbo. About to try RL25 or RL23.
Hell, even Factory ammo appears to have been a limited run...along with Hornady Brass.
Almost starting to regret getting in on this one....almost.
H1000 can be found. Powder Valley had it last week, Graf’s had 8 pounders when I looked just a little while ago. It would be nice to see some RL-26 available in quantities that would make it a option.
RL25 on paper looks to make close to the same max velocity as RL26. Powder Valley has RL25 in stock. Bertram has 6.5 PRC brass in stock.
six pounds left.
Sure....all this happens while I am at work away from any means to monitor and buy.
SHIT!
SHIT!
My GAP 6.5 4S does the same thing. Has the Templar V1 action. Brass still works fine.
Seekins Havak Bravo
Some reload and factory data
RL23 @ 53.0gr (+0.6gr over recommended from Hornady manual)
ADG Brass
BR2 Primers
147 ELD-M
LabRadar
~85*F-91*F
DA @ ~4500-5000ft
53.0gr:
Stats - Average 2865.18
Stats - Highest 2867.7
Stats - Lowest 2862.24
Stats - Ext. Spread 5.46
Stats - Std. Dev 2.02
Shot ID V0
1 2865
2 2865
3 2862
4 2866
5 2868
53.0gr:
Stats - Average 2865.92
Stats - Highest 2873.49
Stats - Lowest 2858.7
Stats - Ext. Spread 14.78
Stats - Std. Dev 4.21
Shot ID V0
1 2863
2 2865
3 2868
4 2867
5 2859
6 2873
7 2863
8 2868
9 2863
10 2869
Velocity is disappointing, i really wanted to get to 2900fps minimum. Hoping for 2950-3000fps. I haven't tried Hornady brass but this ADG brass is consistent. Avg 2866fps. Reloder 23 seems to be very temperature stable however ES was only 15*F. Velocities above are @ ~85*F-91*F. I'm getting the same avg velocity @ ~75*F
Factory Velocities:
Slow Lot @ ~84*F:
Stats - Average 2904.63
Stats - Highest 2935.91
Stats - Lowest 2886.79
Stats - Ext. Spread 49.12
Stats - Std. Dev 17.65
Shot ID V0
1 2906
2 2887
3 2890
4 2890
5 2936
6 2906
7 2890
8 2894
9 2924
10 2924
Fast Lot @ ~84*F:
Stats - Average 2942.74
Stats - Highest 2958.79
Stats - Lowest 2915.65
Stats - Ext. Spread 43.14
Stats - Std. Dev 14.45
Shot ID V0
1 2957
2 2953
3 2927
4 2959
5 2946
6 2948
7 2928
8 2916
9 2952
10 2942
Fast Lot @ ~91*F:
Stats - Average 2947.55
Stats - Highest 2961.42
Stats - Lowest 2928.15
Stats - Ext. Spread 33.27
Stats - Std. Dev 13.73
Shot ID V0
1 2947
2 2942
3 2961
4 2928
5 2960
I was gonna try H1000, but was able to buy some RL26. These were shot at steel between 314M and 375M, ball park groups looks like <3" at both distance (reloads).
Some reload and factory data
RL23 @ 53.0gr (+0.6gr over recommended from Hornady manual)
ADG Brass
BR2 Primers
147 ELD-M
LabRadar
~85*F-91*F
DA @ ~4500-5000ft
53.0gr:
Stats - Average 2865.18
Stats - Highest 2867.7
Stats - Lowest 2862.24
Stats - Ext. Spread 5.46
Stats - Std. Dev 2.02
Shot ID V0
1 2865
2 2865
3 2862
4 2866
5 2868
53.0gr:
Stats - Average 2865.92
Stats - Highest 2873.49
Stats - Lowest 2858.7
Stats - Ext. Spread 14.78
Stats - Std. Dev 4.21
Shot ID V0
1 2863
2 2865
3 2868
4 2867
5 2859
6 2873
7 2863
8 2868
9 2863
10 2869
Velocity is disappointing, i really wanted to get to 2900fps minimum. Hoping for 2950-3000fps. I haven't tried Hornady brass but this ADG brass is consistent. Avg 2866fps. Reloder 23 seems to be very temperature stable however ES was only 15*F. Velocities above are @ ~85*F-91*F. I'm getting the same avg velocity @ ~75*F
Factory Velocities:
Slow Lot @ ~84*F:
Stats - Average 2904.63
Stats - Highest 2935.91
Stats - Lowest 2886.79
Stats - Ext. Spread 49.12
Stats - Std. Dev 17.65
Shot ID V0
1 2906
2 2887
3 2890
4 2890
5 2936
6 2906
7 2890
8 2894
9 2924
10 2924
Fast Lot @ ~84*F:
Stats - Average 2942.74
Stats - Highest 2958.79
Stats - Lowest 2915.65
Stats - Ext. Spread 43.14
Stats - Std. Dev 14.45
Shot ID V0
1 2957
2 2953
3 2927
4 2959
5 2946
6 2948
7 2928
8 2916
9 2952
10 2942
Fast Lot @ ~91*F:
Stats - Average 2947.55
Stats - Highest 2961.42
Stats - Lowest 2928.15
Stats - Ext. Spread 33.27
Stats - Std. Dev 13.73
Shot ID V0
1 2947
2 2942
3 2961
4 2928
5 2960
I was gonna try H1000, but was able to buy some RL26. These were shot at steel between 314M and 375M, ball park groups looks like <3" at both distance (reloads).
What did you end up at with the hybrids and 4831 ??? I’ve been playing with H1K and 140 hybrids, I’m not impressed and may switch to 4831 . In my 284 H4831 gave best accuracy but H1000 gave me the velocity.
Decided to build a 6.5 PRC shortie, 16.5” 1:7 proof barrel. Noticed most guys on here have 24”+ to hit the 3k mark, but for anyone interested in a compact rifle I’ve been more than impressed.
140 Elite Hunters (if the 156’s ever appear I’ll switch over and try those) with ~15 thousandths jump, 58.7 GR H1000, Federal 210M, Hornady brass are averaging 2724 FPS (High 2729, Low 2721, ES 8, SD 3.7). For comparison, my 16.5” creed is only pushing the 140’s at 2400 FPS. I’ll take 300+ FPS any day. Have a little more load development to mess around with but this batch was holding at a max of 1/2”, averaging 3/8” @ 100yds. PVA builds hammers.
Only problem with the 140 Elites is that, with the .188 free bore, I’m at an OAL of 3.040... Dropping down to an OAL of 2.980 to fit my mag was inconsistent at best. Hornady ELDs, in particular the 147s, seemed to like that jump but the 140 Elites were more accurate. I just need to figure out how to squeeze 3.040 into my 2.980 mag.
140 Elite Hunters (if the 156’s ever appear I’ll switch over and try those) with ~15 thousandths jump, 58.7 GR H1000, Federal 210M, Hornady brass are averaging 2724 FPS (High 2729, Low 2721, ES 8, SD 3.7). For comparison, my 16.5” creed is only pushing the 140’s at 2400 FPS. I’ll take 300+ FPS any day. Have a little more load development to mess around with but this batch was holding at a max of 1/2”, averaging 3/8” @ 100yds. PVA builds hammers.
Only problem with the 140 Elites is that, with the .188 free bore, I’m at an OAL of 3.040... Dropping down to an OAL of 2.980 to fit my mag was inconsistent at best. Hornady ELDs, in particular the 147s, seemed to like that jump but the 140 Elites were more accurate. I just need to figure out how to squeeze 3.040 into my 2.980 mag
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I’m getting close with H1000 and 147’s. Federal 210M’s are markedly better than all other primers I’ve tried. 58.4 grains shot into .3 off my bipod yesterday. I didn’t chrono them, but 58.0 had an SD of 8 and 58.5 had an SD of 7, so I think it will be tight.
Some more reload data, this time with RL26. Same rifle Seekins Havak Bravo 24"bbl.
Reloder 26
ADG Brass 3X-Fired
CCI BR2 Primers
147 ELD-M Bullets
54.5gr:
55.0gr:
55.5gr:
55.75gr:
Seems as ES and SD got lower with a higher charge, however, there were some ejector marks and slight cratering @ 55gr. No Heavy bolt lift, and primers don't look flattened.
Reloder 26
ADG Brass 3X-Fired
CCI BR2 Primers
147 ELD-M Bullets
54.5gr:
| Stats - Average | 2926.09 |
| Stats - Highest | 2939.11 |
| Stats - Lowest | 2910.19 |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 28.92 |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 9.15 |
| Shot ID | V0 |
1 | 2914 |
2 | 2929 |
3 | 2935 |
4 | 2933 |
5 | 2926 |
6 | 2928 |
7 | 2919 |
8 | 2910 |
9 | 2929 |
10 | 2939 |
55.0gr:
| Stats - Average | 2959.1 |
| Stats - Highest | 2970.28 |
| Stats - Lowest | 2950.73 |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 19.55 |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 5.76 |
| Shot ID | V0 |
1 | 2957 |
2 | 2952 |
3 | 2951 |
4 | 2958 |
5 | 2970 |
6 | 2960 |
7 | 2958 |
8 | 2958 |
9 | 2962 |
10 | 2965 |
55.5gr:
| Stats - Average | 2979.17 |
| Stats - Highest | 2988.69 |
| Stats - Lowest | 2971.88 |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 16.81 |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 5.52 |
| Shot ID | V0 |
1 | 2974 |
2 | 2989 |
3 | 2982 |
4 | 2980 |
5 | 2973 |
6 | 2985 |
7 | 2981 |
8 | 2972 |
9 | 2975 |
10 | 2981 |
55.75gr:
| Stats - Average | 2987.93 |
| Stats - Highest | 2992.12 |
| Stats - Lowest | 2982.38 |
| Stats - Ext. Spread | 9.74 |
| Stats - Std. Dev | 4.19 |
| Shot ID | V0 |
1 | 2992 |
2 | 2985 |
3 | 2990 |
4 | 2982 |
5 | 2990 |
Seems as ES and SD got lower with a higher charge, however, there were some ejector marks and slight cratering @ 55gr. No Heavy bolt lift, and primers don't look flattened.
For anyone interested, Berger 156 gr elite hunters are in stock at MidwayUSA. Almost fell over when I saw a shipping notice this morning... Plan to post OAL specs for .188 FB once they arrive next week... Might be another week or two before I make it to the range, but will share results once I do.
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