Looking into getting an AR 15. From what I’ve been around them, Larue, Wilson Combat, Jp enterprises, gap seem to make the best ones as far as machining goes. I’d like to hear opinions from some people who have been around them enough to say that they would bet on “this certain brand” being a tack driver. I guess I’m a snob but 1 moa isn’t enough to justify the price in these higher end guns. I’ve seen rock rivers shoot 1 moa pretty often for 800 bucks. Thanks guys
- Thread starter Pwm1830
- Start date
Personal experience tells me JP is a sure bet. I'd exclude the ultra lite model from that statement, though.
Shooting half moa groups from a semi isn't just in the gun, it's in the shooter and ammo as well. JP makes a top notch gun that is very accurate.
if I wanted the closest thing to a sure thing though, I'd get a Bartlein upper or compete gun from Compass Lake Engineering.
if I wanted the closest thing to a sure thing though, I'd get a Bartlein upper or compete gun from Compass Lake Engineering.
precision based but I still want light enough to carry around. Larue PredatOBR had a great balance to it.
Home build using a Bartlein from Compass Lake, Geissele SSA-E and match/hand load ammo is boringly accurate. 26" tube so not a hiker but they offer custom lengths. Barrel, trigger, ammo and shooter make the accuracy and I think you can build a very capable AR these days for less than what premium AR makers are offering and dump remaining resources into optics, ammo and range time.
I have only found one solution that is a sure bet. Les Baer. I have shot a dozen or more and every one will easily beat .5 MOA. Get one in a .204 and some 32 grain Hornady ammo and you are GTG. You will think it the best AR in the world, but the next one off the line will shoot just like it as will the one made just before it.
My Les Baer shoot shoots way under half all day. .16 is my best 100 yard group with factory match ammo.
I would love to see that 5x5 target. Ive only seen a handful of gassers in my life that shot consistent 5x5 "WAY UNDER" 0.5moa all day long groups. Pics or it didnt happen. I can show you cherry picked groups in the .1's and sub 0.1's too.
Man I might have to take your advice. I’ve actually read on other sights bad things about Les Baer AR’s. I know you can read anything. How many have you shot? They feed good too? 204 functions 100%?
Any negative reviews you read about Les Baer Rifles is complete Bullshit!! And if they have any merit, it is due to the poor shooting abilities, not the rifle...
No Firearm ever leaves LBC until it consistently shoots .5 MOA or less. You might hear some people say that Les is an asshole, but he's really not.. He knows without a doubt that every firearm that leaves his factory is a .5 or less Shooter, so when people call and complain about the accuracy 99.99% of the time it's the Shooter!!
You should see his new large frame 6.5 Creedmoor rifles, Les now carbon wraps his own custom made in house barrels.
Sir,
I have shot 12-15 Baer AR’s in .204 and .223. All were amazing.
I’m not going to fire 25 rds down the barrel as Baer no longer sells .204 barrels. I only have one new one left. The one I’m shooting has 1400 plus down the barrel. Last batch I ordered took 2.5 years to land.
Les can be an interesting guy to deal with.
BTW, the accuracy is in the barrel, not the build. Most know that but Baer barrels prove the point.
I have shot 12-15 Baer AR’s in .204 and .223. All were amazing.
I’m not going to fire 25 rds down the barrel as Baer no longer sells .204 barrels. I only have one new one left. The one I’m shooting has 1400 plus down the barrel. Last batch I ordered took 2.5 years to land.
Les can be an interesting guy to deal with.
BTW, the accuracy is in the barrel, not the build. Most know that but Baer barrels prove the point.
JP Enterprises has made a believer out of me. I previously had a LaRue Stealth upper and is was ok...sub moa but not by much. Ordered a JP upper and it shoots amazing. Now it is a little picky on the ammo it likes but once you find that out....the gun will shoot great. I've tried probably 15-20 different factory match ammo...Hornady, Federal, Black Hills, IMI, Copper Creek, Defender....etc. Mine likes Hornady Black 75gr, Prime, Defender 69gr and the absolute best is Copper Creek 77gr Berger OTM. I could post some pics of ridiculously small groups, but you get the drift. My JP .223 20" is the most accurate gun I own.... including bolt guns.
I'm looking at a target from a few weeks ago, 1st 5, five round groups.... .53 moa, .33, .49, .44, .50........last 5, five round groups..... .37 moa, .58 (had 4 rounds measure .15 and threw a round), .33, .95 (had to be me), .46.
I'm looking at a target from a few weeks ago, 1st 5, five round groups.... .53 moa, .33, .49, .44, .50........last 5, five round groups..... .37 moa, .58 (had 4 rounds measure .15 and threw a round), .33, .95 (had to be me), .46.
Padom put it most succinctly. I find that my precision AR's can usually shoot far better than I can drive them.
I have had good luck with a pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminters. At the time I purchased my first one (I guess back around 2008), they offered a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee with factory match ammunition. Mine (and several friends') Model 6's managed to equal that guarantee several times using Prvi-Partizan 69gr and 75gr Match .223. At our LGS in Horseheads NY, there was nearly always a Model 6 standing against the wall, awaiting pickup by its new owner; they were just that popular there, back then. For under a grand, I thought it was/is an impressive performer.
Very recently, I bought and assembled another Model 6 in kit form, and am in the process of redeveloping loads in 50gr and 75gr bullet weights. Very preliminary testing with the 50gr at 100yd strongly suggests that 1/2MOA is possible with the newer rifle as well. Confirmation of that load, and more detailed development of the 75gr load are next on the to do list.
But as Padom advises, obtaining a 1/2MOA AR is not a cut and dried thing. At this point the process of being able to confidently declare success has taken at least 3 months of my shooting effort, and is far from a being a sure thing. In addition, Stag has apparently dropped the Model 6 Super Varminter designation from its current lineup, with the designation Stag 15 Varminter appearing instead. Also missing is any reference I can find to a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee. The only obvious difference between the former and current model that I can ascertain is a change of furniture.
Without a Stag 15 Varminter in my possession, it is impossible for me to say that this new rifle will equal or exceed the performance of the Model 6. But I can take a guess, and my guess is that it should, but this also assumes more than just the rifle itself being up to speed. Current price is a good bit under grand, and if I had a need for another MR/600yd tack driving AR, it would be the one I'd snap up.
Greg
I have had good luck with a pair of Stag Model 6 Super Varminters. At the time I purchased my first one (I guess back around 2008), they offered a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee with factory match ammunition. Mine (and several friends') Model 6's managed to equal that guarantee several times using Prvi-Partizan 69gr and 75gr Match .223. At our LGS in Horseheads NY, there was nearly always a Model 6 standing against the wall, awaiting pickup by its new owner; they were just that popular there, back then. For under a grand, I thought it was/is an impressive performer.
Very recently, I bought and assembled another Model 6 in kit form, and am in the process of redeveloping loads in 50gr and 75gr bullet weights. Very preliminary testing with the 50gr at 100yd strongly suggests that 1/2MOA is possible with the newer rifle as well. Confirmation of that load, and more detailed development of the 75gr load are next on the to do list.
But as Padom advises, obtaining a 1/2MOA AR is not a cut and dried thing. At this point the process of being able to confidently declare success has taken at least 3 months of my shooting effort, and is far from a being a sure thing. In addition, Stag has apparently dropped the Model 6 Super Varminter designation from its current lineup, with the designation Stag 15 Varminter appearing instead. Also missing is any reference I can find to a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee. The only obvious difference between the former and current model that I can ascertain is a change of furniture.
Without a Stag 15 Varminter in my possession, it is impossible for me to say that this new rifle will equal or exceed the performance of the Model 6. But I can take a guess, and my guess is that it should, but this also assumes more than just the rifle itself being up to speed. Current price is a good bit under grand, and if I had a need for another MR/600yd tack driving AR, it would be the one I'd snap up.
Greg
I have an LWRC that shoots below a 1/3 group. I also have a colt 6721 and a cheap smith and wesson. I changed out triggers in both to velocity triggers and reload a 69 smk with varget. Both shoot under an inch. You have to find a load your gun likes. And unless your gun comes with an after market trigger, change it out immediately.
I will push the JP button like others have. Fantastic guns, and the side charger is well worth it.
That said, If you build 10 AR15's following a FORMULA capable of .5MOA most every group time after time, chances are only one or two will actually achieve that outcome.
If your AR shoots .5 sometimes...and .1 or .2 sometimes....and .7 sometimes, .8 others, this level of performance is pretty close to the pinnacle.
The barrel is absolutely the most important thing - and there are tricks (shimming the barrel extension until you get a hammer fit, using a stiffer than USGI upper) but its not a guarantee. Even with a factory gun.
I do have a Lothar Walther barreled AXTS gun that I think could probably go 5x5 in .5moa. It's a keeper, and I'll cry when its barrel is shot out. We built 7 almost identical rifles with the same everything pretty much and this is the only one that shoots quite this good. The others shoot .6 or .7 on occasion.
That said, If you build 10 AR15's following a FORMULA capable of .5MOA most every group time after time, chances are only one or two will actually achieve that outcome.
If your AR shoots .5 sometimes...and .1 or .2 sometimes....and .7 sometimes, .8 others, this level of performance is pretty close to the pinnacle.
The barrel is absolutely the most important thing - and there are tricks (shimming the barrel extension until you get a hammer fit, using a stiffer than USGI upper) but its not a guarantee. Even with a factory gun.
I do have a Lothar Walther barreled AXTS gun that I think could probably go 5x5 in .5moa. It's a keeper, and I'll cry when its barrel is shot out. We built 7 almost identical rifles with the same everything pretty much and this is the only one that shoots quite this good. The others shoot .6 or .7 on occasion.
This is 100%
ive seen enough 6x5’s from hundred of people and top notch rifles to prove so.... its a blend of both rifle and shooter and reloading...
if i was to pick one, JP
ive seen enough 6x5’s from hundred of people and top notch rifles to prove so.... its a blend of both rifle and shooter and reloading...
if i was to pick one, JP
Guys I really appreciate the input. I narrowed my search to Jp and Les Baer. I just got off the phone from a lady at Les Baer to ask some questions and wasn’t impressed. I asked her what happens if I have my brand new Les Bear and it shoots .75-1 moa and I couldn’t get a definite answer. I’m sure they get worn out with calls with people that can’t shoot calling and complaining but pretty much she just said if they go out, they are half moa period. As in don’t call back saying it isn’t is the vibe I got. I understand having confidence in your product but I like to know there’s customer service if needed.
Hi,
Well maybe some of these .1 and .5 "All day long" rifles and shooters should take their gas gun and RULE the FT/R circuit and show all those bolt gun guys a thing or two...
Sincerely,
THEIS
Well maybe some of these .1 and .5 "All day long" rifles and shooters should take their gas gun and RULE the FT/R circuit and show all those bolt gun guys a thing or two...
Sincerely,
THEIS
Compass Lake with a Bartlein!! Frank gives the best customer service there is. He makes follow up calls to see how the barrel is shooting, gives you load info. And his rifles will shoot!
You should totally build an MK12 clone, so good looking and will shoot 77 grainers very accurately
CLE is having a 12 days of Christmas sale, mostly Criterion barrels (not Bartlein) but worth checking out.
As has been said, the CLE match chambered Bartlein barrels are second to none.
As has been said, the CLE match chambered Bartlein barrels are second to none.
This is my latest build using a CLE Bartlein Barrel and Hand loads... I did a thread showing in detail how to achieve this result it doesn't take much to do a bit of research..
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Sure bet tack driver AR15? That's simple, Robert Whitley at AR-X Enterprises, or John Holliger at White Oak Precision just to name two.
Very nice! Any chance you've tested any of the relatively newcomers for cut rifled blanks? Mullerworks, Hawk Hill, James Lederer Rifle Barrels, etc..??
I have a MW cut rifled 1:8 twist .223 Wylde on the shelf I recently tested. It's a tack driver. Equal to any of the Bartleins I have on the shelf and a fast barrel. I picked up a few more MW blanks after seeing how awesome that 223 barrel performed.
Just a small point, however, my experience has been that the mark on a target left by a bullet is always measurably smaller than the bullet diameter. And, the margins of the tear are usually poorly defined...
Check with Wes at MSTN. He does custom builds with custom barrels. Noveske Pac-Nor barrels or Craddock Precision Bartlein. Both are 3 groove 8 twists that shoot lights out for me.
http://mstn.biz/spr_18_upper/
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http://mstn.biz/spr_18_upper/
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
No sorry... I'm a bit of a Barrel Snob, I only run Kriegers or Bartleins for my Custom Cut Barrels, and JP for Button Cut off the shelf barrels.
I do alot of work for Family and Friends/co-workers, which keeps me busy and the way that I conduct my build gives me a lot of hands on testing and to this date I've never had a barrel issue from CLE.
When I do a custom build for somebody not only do I use the best parts, I have a extremely high attention to detail, some may call it a overkill but I true and bed every receiver and barrel. After the build is complete I conduct barrel Breakin and Load Development for the bullet they prefer to shoot 55 to 77grn. When I finish all that I meet my friends at the range, sit down with them and print a 6x5 Target in person so there is no doubt that the rifle holds up to it's .5 MOA reputation.
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I been liking what I'm seeing from Mullerworks. He built his own cut rifling machine and is a master at lapping barrels. His rimfire barrels are pretty widely agreed upon to be the best in the world (if you can get one)..
I'll add something to the discussion about JP. My old match AR was one I put together with a WOA barrel. It shot great most of the time. On three separate occasions, all major matches, the gun quit shooting in the middle of the match and turned into a shotgun. In all three cases, it was after very long strings of fire. I experimented a LOT trying to figure out what was going on. I swapped cans around, installed brakes instead, fooled extensively with ammo, and even glued the barrel to the receiver with locktite.
I never came to a definitive conclusion, but my best guess is that it was the barrel heating up and transferring heat to the receiver. The receiver, being aluminum, expands about twice as much as the barrel. I think the barrel was getting loose in the receiver.
After two years of frustration, I gave up and bought a JP. I chose JP specifically because they thermo fit their barrels. Meaning, they use a barrel extension that is oversize and then use differential heating to get it into the receiver. In theory, this should eliminate the barrel getting loose.
I've only had it a few months and have not had an opportunity to test it under those conditions, so I don't know if it works or not. What I do know is that it's an amazingly fine tuned and soft shooting rifle. I spent three weeks doing load development on it. During that time, I shot it 2-3 times a week. At the end of development, I took it and my old match rifle to the range together. My fist shot through the old gun made me think I'd broken something. I'd gotten very accustomed to the tiny recoil impulse of the JP, and when I went back to the old gun it felt like a large frame AR.
Accuracy on my JP is right at 1/2 minute. Some groups are 3/8, some 5/8, but on average it's 1/2. I'm especially thrilled with this since I'm shooting ammo loaded on a progressive press with thrown, not weighed charges.
It took 300 or so rounds for me to see best accuracy. I thought it was just me getting used to the gun, but others mentioned the break in period, and that's what I think I was seeing.
My only quibble (and this well may be me) is that it needs 5-10 rounds down the pipe before it shoots well. The first group of the day is always poor. Sometimes the second, too. Once it has 5-10 rounds down it, it hammers for the rest of the day. It could be cold shooter and have nothing to do with the gun, but I don't think so. I've warmed up with another rifle, then shot the JP with the same results. Not definitive, but interesting.
It's my favorite rifle because it's the easiest rifle I own to shoot well.
I never came to a definitive conclusion, but my best guess is that it was the barrel heating up and transferring heat to the receiver. The receiver, being aluminum, expands about twice as much as the barrel. I think the barrel was getting loose in the receiver.
After two years of frustration, I gave up and bought a JP. I chose JP specifically because they thermo fit their barrels. Meaning, they use a barrel extension that is oversize and then use differential heating to get it into the receiver. In theory, this should eliminate the barrel getting loose.
I've only had it a few months and have not had an opportunity to test it under those conditions, so I don't know if it works or not. What I do know is that it's an amazingly fine tuned and soft shooting rifle. I spent three weeks doing load development on it. During that time, I shot it 2-3 times a week. At the end of development, I took it and my old match rifle to the range together. My fist shot through the old gun made me think I'd broken something. I'd gotten very accustomed to the tiny recoil impulse of the JP, and when I went back to the old gun it felt like a large frame AR.
Accuracy on my JP is right at 1/2 minute. Some groups are 3/8, some 5/8, but on average it's 1/2. I'm especially thrilled with this since I'm shooting ammo loaded on a progressive press with thrown, not weighed charges.
It took 300 or so rounds for me to see best accuracy. I thought it was just me getting used to the gun, but others mentioned the break in period, and that's what I think I was seeing.
My only quibble (and this well may be me) is that it needs 5-10 rounds down the pipe before it shoots well. The first group of the day is always poor. Sometimes the second, too. Once it has 5-10 rounds down it, it hammers for the rest of the day. It could be cold shooter and have nothing to do with the gun, but I don't think so. I've warmed up with another rifle, then shot the JP with the same results. Not definitive, but interesting.
It's my favorite rifle because it's the easiest rifle I own to shoot well.
I have a DPMS Recon that will shoot 1 moa easy at 100. I have shot many 10 shot sub MOA groups. Now half MOA has happened before for 5 shot groups but not consistently. I also have not shot for groups past 100 yards. Rifle is all factory except for adjustable gas block and supressor.
When I built an Upper (to see if I could...), I used Loctite Red to seat the barrel. Since then, I have realized it was very likely overkill, but it would seem to me to address the potential issue of heat causing the barrel to become loose. The intended application for the Upper could be best described as 'Run-n-Gun), so it is the most likely of my rifles to operate at higher temperature levels. I think that the overkill may not be such an issue with it.
A larger sequence of foulers being required might be a cold, clean bore issue. I use to be pretty religious about cleaning after every outing, but have since throttled back on that somewhat. Powder kernel coatings seem (to me, anyway,...) to become dry lube in the bore after firing since many (nearly all the traditional powders) use graphite as the kernel coating. Cleaning removes the accumulation, necessitating the firing of foulers to reseason the bore.
If this clean, cold bore condition is not the norm, then the issue my be related to barrel heating; in which case, i would try redeveloping the load with the ladder testing oriented toward starting with a heated barrel. The conditioning/fouler load should use the same bullets and powder as the load being developed.
If the issue does not resolve through any of these strategies, I would revisit the cold shooter angle.
Greg
A larger sequence of foulers being required might be a cold, clean bore issue. I use to be pretty religious about cleaning after every outing, but have since throttled back on that somewhat. Powder kernel coatings seem (to me, anyway,...) to become dry lube in the bore after firing since many (nearly all the traditional powders) use graphite as the kernel coating. Cleaning removes the accumulation, necessitating the firing of foulers to reseason the bore.
If this clean, cold bore condition is not the norm, then the issue my be related to barrel heating; in which case, i would try redeveloping the load with the ladder testing oriented toward starting with a heated barrel. The conditioning/fouler load should use the same bullets and powder as the load being developed.
If the issue does not resolve through any of these strategies, I would revisit the cold shooter angle.
Greg
Interesting thought about the clean bore, Greg. I clean pretty regularly and have made no attempt to correlate clean bore vs first group accuracy. I'll fiddle with that. Sorry for the hijack, OP.
Pwm1830
so... realistically, can an AR platform do .5MOA.. yep... but very likely not all day long. not if you are talking ES measurement that the internet likes. Now if you are talking ATC or some other measurement that allows for statistical flyers they yes.. .5 all day long might be more achievable
many good and even average mfg can make the AR platform that will turn in the occaisional 3 or even 5 round group that will be sub .5MOA but I have yet to see one in my lifetime turn in a 10 round group under .5 let alone multiple 10 round groups overlayed for a 30 round composit.. never seen it.. maybe Molon has .. as that man is an AR god.. but I have never seen him shoot a 30 round composit that is .5 either come to think of it.
different animal but when the military was looking at the M110 trials the initial requiremnt for for a 1MOA max.. they had to relax that to 1.5 and these where hand built test guns from top tier defense contractors like remington and Knights competing and they all asked for the requirement to be relaxed.. why.. becuase the govt doesnt cherry pick groups.. those guns that go through testing at aberdeen prooving grounds for contracts have to meet the milspec ALL DAY LONG.. shoot one group outside the maximum specified and you are out.
here is another dirty secret of the AR platform.. any rounds chambered from a bolt open condition like a mag change or a malf clearing will almost always shoot out of the group becase the bolt lockup is far more violent from a recoil rebound than from the bolt release. moreover.. depending on the hand lapping of the bolt to extension interface.. many when single loaded will group far worse than a string fired from the magzine... when firing in a match or for groups where its allowed a shooter will throw that first shot into the ground and not the target.
conversly .. especially in the ar-10 .. if you loads dont have LOTS of neck tension.. the round will grow measureably when chambered.. I have seen rounds chambered than ejected that would no longer fit the magazine having set the bullet forward enough to see with the naked eye. this is exacerbated in rounds that chamber from recoil and not bolt release.
in sum.. the AR platform can attain resonable accuracy but if you were trying to build one that would never throw a round outside .5 .. I would say its a fools errand at any cost... hence the reason we still have bolt guns and when a shot has to mater, when a hostages head and a perps head are within inches of one another, nobody is taking that shot with a semi..
so... realistically, can an AR platform do .5MOA.. yep... but very likely not all day long. not if you are talking ES measurement that the internet likes. Now if you are talking ATC or some other measurement that allows for statistical flyers they yes.. .5 all day long might be more achievable
many good and even average mfg can make the AR platform that will turn in the occaisional 3 or even 5 round group that will be sub .5MOA but I have yet to see one in my lifetime turn in a 10 round group under .5 let alone multiple 10 round groups overlayed for a 30 round composit.. never seen it.. maybe Molon has .. as that man is an AR god.. but I have never seen him shoot a 30 round composit that is .5 either come to think of it.
different animal but when the military was looking at the M110 trials the initial requiremnt for for a 1MOA max.. they had to relax that to 1.5 and these where hand built test guns from top tier defense contractors like remington and Knights competing and they all asked for the requirement to be relaxed.. why.. becuase the govt doesnt cherry pick groups.. those guns that go through testing at aberdeen prooving grounds for contracts have to meet the milspec ALL DAY LONG.. shoot one group outside the maximum specified and you are out.
here is another dirty secret of the AR platform.. any rounds chambered from a bolt open condition like a mag change or a malf clearing will almost always shoot out of the group becase the bolt lockup is far more violent from a recoil rebound than from the bolt release. moreover.. depending on the hand lapping of the bolt to extension interface.. many when single loaded will group far worse than a string fired from the magzine... when firing in a match or for groups where its allowed a shooter will throw that first shot into the ground and not the target.
conversly .. especially in the ar-10 .. if you loads dont have LOTS of neck tension.. the round will grow measureably when chambered.. I have seen rounds chambered than ejected that would no longer fit the magazine having set the bullet forward enough to see with the naked eye. this is exacerbated in rounds that chamber from recoil and not bolt release.
in sum.. the AR platform can attain resonable accuracy but if you were trying to build one that would never throw a round outside .5 .. I would say its a fools errand at any cost... hence the reason we still have bolt guns and when a shot has to mater, when a hostages head and a perps head are within inches of one another, nobody is taking that shot with a semi..
Who the fuck are you to ask anything of anyone on here? Shut your fucking Noob Cum trap, and take your ass back to AR15.com
I've looked through your older post and it's clear you're nothing more then an envious troll, picking fights with people who are far more capable than you.
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