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Army choosing 6.8?

Greg Langelius *

Greg Langelius *

Resident Elder Fart
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 10, 2001
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AZ
#1
This intimates a 6.8 in the Army's future as the new individual and squad small arm chambering.

I have my doubts. IMHO, the move is a step backward; potentially creating a ballistic performance more closely approaching that of the more mediocre 7.62x39, rather than something a bit more ballistically robust, not unlike the Grendel, which is already being tested for adoption by an Eastern European military.

I think this release may be misinformation being aimed at potential opposition in an effort to get them to invest in a disappointing commitment. In any case, I think we're still reading speculation; which is precisely what I'm posting here.

Greg
 
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#4
I can't disagree.

The US Ordnance people haven't made a bold move concerning chamberings since the 5.56's debut, which grew to be the primary Western chambering. Try swerving that juggernaut in a boldly different direction.

I won't live long enough to see that; especially since nobody can even hold up a winning chambering in their hand for all to see.

Time, and testing, will tell. Not even there yet, far as I can see.

Greg

PS Not feeling particularly trolled, carry on...

Honestly, you posted something in a foreign language, government-rf?ese, I can't comment one something I can't/don't read...

LOL!!!
 
#5
A friend of mine mentioned something along the same line months ago about the Army looking strongly at the 6.8 again.
 
#7
The .276 Pederson was supposed to be the Garand chambering until MacArthur stomped that flat on very practical grounds citing the madness of switching the Ordnance supply juggernaut to a new chambering.

IMHO, the 5.56 is going to be 'it' for a long time to come. So 'flawed', but it's also what we're putting out in the millions, what our allies are using; and it's still killing our enemies well enough to hold the loyalty of the troops.

Greg
 
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#8
it is a 6.8 caliber, it will not fit in an ar15 envelope.
Think AR-10, think high pressure.
As most improvements in regards to cartridge (and the 6.8 SPC II was definitely an improvement), it will likely never happen.
Big Army has said time and again, they want a huge leap forward, not an incremental improvement.
They intend on sticking with the 5.56.
Of course, the new m855a1 will destroy rifles at an unprecedented rate, possibly ushering in a replacement sooner rather than later.
 
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#14
They have been saying it for years. Will never happen even though the 6.8 SPC II is soooo much better than the 5.56 without the size and weight penalty of the venerable .308.

I have been shooting the 6.8 cartridge for years and there is no doubt in my mind of its effectiveness in terms of terminal ballistics over both the 7.62x39 and the 5.56.

Jordan's Army has been using it for a while.
 
#15
Hi,

Please see link below for official information on the NGSW project.

Title of the announcement: Prototype Project Opportunity Project.
Note: The Prototype OTA Test events are up to 8 years with 27 months of that dedicated to revising prototypes and such.


So in short.....The NGSW 6.8 is likely not to hit the field any time soon.

https://www.fbo.gov/index.php?s=opp...27b1b593a82bd33cd3ce3b1a2aa&tab=core&_cview=1


Now factor in running that type of combo at 85-90k pressures :)

Sad that the autos are embracing higher pressure ammunition combinations faster than the bolt gun sector is willing to do.

IF we up'ed operational "SAAMI" pressures to 90k across the board for centerfire ammunition....it is going to open the next chapter in centerfire capabilities and advancement.

Edited To Add:
In regards to ammunition...It is 2 different types....Telescopic Case design and traditional case design but the numbers currently are:
6.8 projectile pushed at 3,500 fps from a 16" barrel.

"Cased Telescopic" in the right:
XM1186 on the left:


7090394


Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#20
Thats a good point @madppcs - what is your job @THEIS ? Or otherwise how do you get access to all these arms shows/exhibitions? If I'm outta line or you can;t talk bout it, dont hesitate to shut me down!

ETA: Can you elaborate? Desk @ a table?

Also, 90,000psi loads? How is this accomplished? Are the case walls much thicker or/and made of something other than brass? Or is the propellant that is some type super high tech advanced stuff? Or is it the firearms themselves are designed in such a way to allow this?

I can't imagine a .338 Lapua Improved running 300(+)gr projos @ 80k+ PSI....much less a .375 Cheytac Imp. or .416 Barrett running one of the Cutting Edge heavy solids @ 80k+ PSI !! LOL like holy shit, that would a neva ben dun befo' game changah'!!

Thanks for any/all input @THEIS !!!!!!
 
#21
Hi,

In regards to the high pressures....combination of weapon design and case design. Nothing really new with propellant(s), that is why the pressures have to be increased to get any advancement. Because propellant advancements are not happening fast enough.

There are a couple companies working on some 90-100k pressure bolt action weapon systems along with new high pressure capable bi-metal cartridge designs.
Just think of a 420gr projectile at 4k fps without damaging primer pockets or separating case heads.
I pressure tested a new receiver to about 152k a few weeks ago....brass cartridge case blew apart and locked the bolt but at 130k bolt functioned fine with not even a malfunction of extractor or ejectors.


Sincerely,
Theis
 
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#22
THEIS said:
Hi,

In regards to the high pressures....combination of weapon design and case design. Nothing really new with propellant(s), that is why the pressures have to be increased to get any advancement. Because propellant advancements are not happening fast enough.

There are a couple companies working on some 90-100k pressure bolt action weapon systems along with new high pressure capable bi-metal cartridge designs.
Just think of a 420gr projectile at 4k fps without damaging primer pockets or separating case heads.
I pressure tested a new receiver to about 152k a few weeks ago....brass cartridge case blew apart and locked the bolt but at 130k bolt functioned fine with not even a malfunction of extractor or ejectors.


Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
But how many reloads did you get out of that brass? And did you anneal?
;)
(I had to....) HA.
 
#24
@nik h,

Re: Jordans Army, and 6.8, how many round variants have been developed, ball, tracer, a.p., frangible, etc ?

Max effective range and armor penetration (helmet) at what distance. Any clue on their parameters on this ?

Curious...
 
Last edited:
#25
Hi,

@Nik H
Did that license deal with LMT back in 2013 actually go through to production runs in Jordan?
As of this past April there was no company under the KADDB umbrella manufacturing anything 6.8 that I seen there, nor does any of the KADDB company websites list anything related to 6.8....the rifle company nor the ammunition company.

Do you know if that licensing deal was cancelled or suspended or is Jordan playing it private?

Sincerely,
Theis
 
#26
THEIS said:
Hi,

@Nik H
Did that license deal with LMT back in 2013 actually go through to production runs in Jordan?
As of this past April there was no company under the KADDB umbrella manufacturing anything 6.8 that I seen there, nor does any of the KADDB company websites list anything related to 6.8....the rifle company nor the ammunition company.

Do you know if that licensing deal was cancelled or suspended or is Jordan playing it private?

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

I am not sure about LMT but LWRC did sell them a number of their 6.8 SPC II rifles. My buddy, a retired Marine Officer, worked for them during 2012-2016. He told me when I was researching the cartridge.
 
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#29
The Army actually chose 6.8mm in the 1920's. .276 Pederson was the caliber of choice for the replace to the -03 Springfield but an idiot named MacAuthur refused to allow it because of the amount of ammo in stock.

What was old is,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,new again. Welcome to 1923.
 
#30
THEIS said:
Hi,
Edited To Add:
In regards to ammunition...It is 2 different types....Telescopic Case design and traditional case design but the numbers currently are:
6.8 projectile pushed at 3,500 fps from a 16" barrel.

"Cased Telescopic" in the right:
XM1186 on the left:


View attachment 7090394

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

There is a poly-cased, non-telescopic cartridge design submitted to the NGSW competition as well.
 
#31
Could these rounds perhaps be primer-less cased? With ignition coming by way of some different new method?

FWIW, a benchrest buddy/acquaintance of mine who has to be damn near a savant runs retarded hot loads, especially in his 6BR/Dasher/BRX/BRA/etc and 6.5x47L-based wildcats, while getting 50+ loads out each case. Think 6.5-284 MV's or damn near from a 6.5x47L. I already know yall gone call BS, go ahead. I dont really give a damn, hes the real deal. I'm tired as a tour de france winner at the moment so I'll go into some a his loading methods lil later - much as he'll lemme disclose atleast.
 
#34
Forgetful Coyote said:
Also, already posted this in Semi auto section, but figured it somewhat pertained to the topic:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...-soon-be-using-this-6-5mm-assault-machine-gun
Click to expand...

Hi,

FN has made 6.8 versions of that rifle (But with different alloys in key places to handle the pressures) and submitted in the NGSW program. They actually entered 2 different versions, a Mod 1 and Mod 2.

@vh20
Do you happen to know if that standard poly case ammunition functions in all the weapons submitted or just the weapon submitted by that ammunition manufacturer?
Of all the NGSW submissions the combo from that company seems to be relatively unspoken about but really could be a "sleeper" in the program and would be a big kick in teeth to FN, Textron, etc.

It is going to be interesting when the T&E Commands start ringing these prototypes out :)

Sincerely,
Theis
 
#35
Forgetful Coyote said:
FWIW, a benchrest buddy/acquaintance of mine who has to be damn near a savant runs retarded hot loads, especially in his 6BR/Dasher/BRX/BRA/etc and 6.5x47L-based wildcats, while getting 50+ loads out each case.
Click to expand...

Hi,

BINGO...lots of top level BR shooters push around 65-70k pressures in their 6BR and get kazillion reloads!!
Because their chambers are done properly in regards to brass flex and flow, along the the 6BR case design is pretty much a perfect combination.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
#36
THEIS said:
@vh20
Do you happen to know if that standard poly case ammunition functions in all the weapons submitted or just the weapon submitted by that ammunition manufacturer?
Of all the NGSW submissions the combo from that company seems to be relatively unspoken about but really could be a "sleeper" in the program and would be a big kick in teeth to FN, Textron, etc.

It is going to be interesting when the T&E Commands start ringing these prototypes out :)

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...

No, I don't know, but I kind of think it is only for the weapons submitted by that manufacturer (who didn't design or manufacture the round itself). That's purely a guess on my part. I have a picture of the round but don't know if it's been made public or not so I'll hold on to it for now. I think it will be public for sure after next week. It is "traditional" in a sense, but also not in some ways, which is obvious from the outside.
 
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#39
Hi,

@vh20
I heard it was exclusive to that actual weapon system too, but the prototype testing phase is slotted for something like 27 months so things are subject and pretty much will change :)

I am actually rooting for that underdog in this situation but the logistic capabilities of FN and Textron will be hard for .gov to pass up.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
#41
THEIS said:
Because their chambers are done properly in regards to brass flex and flow

Sincerely,
Theis
Click to expand...
Simply put... spot on^^^^
I asked em to give me a rundown again on what all methods he uses, that he'll disclose. As I said, this is a VERY smart individual and has some real interesting ideas regarding accuracy/precision that he backs up or throws out with testing. Hes a real interesting fella, tho he talks....well, in a peculiar manner. I have to read his messages multiple times over to get this gist of it sometimes LOL..almost like he speaks in a way you'd imagine a settler out west circa 1836 would speak.

BTW @THEIS - can you disclose how the gas guns were modded to handle such pressures?

And what action was it that you ran/blew the case in with no harm to the bolt or anything? IIRC PO Ackley literally tried to blow up the Arisaka and failed to do so.

What type of steel are they using in these high pressure actions?

Can you post a link or point us toward a company site?

Can we civvies expect this ammo to trickle down to us? If so, when?
 
Last edited:
#42
Hi,

@Forgetful Coyote

So as to not speak directly into regards what FN or Textron have done to their weapons to handle the high pressure but typically you would need to tighten the tolerances between the bolt carrier lugs and the breech extension area, along with some more specialized alloys, heat treatments and RC those components to about 52.

Luckily a gas gun can be made to bleed pressures off really really fast but downside to that is the elevated pressure benefits ala increased MV are not as noticeable if running those same pressures in bolt gun. That is why the 6.8s in the testing are only running 3500fps with those pressures. Same pressures in bolt gun would probably be pushing closer to 3800fps.

Linked is some pressure testing I done last month on our new receiver. I am not ready to release company and information yet but will be ready to roll in about 3 weeks. We are finalizing some production processes first.

In regards to the high pressure ammo trickling down....receiver manufacturers would have to be willing to make changes on their end (which increases price) so their receivers do not break, malfunction or blow up.

_DSC8443.JPG


Sincerely,
Theis
 

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