As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[FreedomGunworks]

Wow, what a clusterfuck of a thread. There are some really solid ideas here and I believe Lowlight is on the right track, but too many aren't tracking and that detracts from the entire flow of the thread. I think much can be learned from taking note of organizations that have ORGANIZED national level matches now and have been running them successfully for years. Take USPSA for example; they have a classification system comprised of standards drills that are shot by competitors all over the country. The drill is exactly the same for everyone. Target distance, target spacing, even target height from the ground. All have diagrams so they can be constructed equally for everyone. If each local, state, and regional match started out with a dozen or so simple "standards" drills a classification system would be easy to put together and would take little in resources to maintain. USPSA, IDPA, and the NRA have figured it out, why can't we?

If your match is an "invitational only" and not open to anyone wanting to attend who signs up in time, you shouldn't be considered a national level match. You're a buddy putting on a match for buddies.

If your match can't get shots beyond 800 yards, you're not a national "level" long range rifle match.

If you shoot more paper than steel, you're not a national level match.

There is nothing wrong with having a regional match status, check the ego at the door. It's about having rifle matches so that we can all enjoy shooting. A friend and I started doing a long range match back in 2007. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars buying steel and landscaping a piece of property to make it suitable. The first year was tough for all involved. We learned, we grew, we got better, and so did our match. We lost a lot of personal money with that match, but we did it for the right reasons.

If everyone would take a step back and keep this thing as simple as possible to start with, then let it evolve, it could turn into something incredible.

I'm in favor of power factor style divisions instead of velocity. A .308 shooting 155's @ 3050fps isn't in the same league as a 300WM shooting 190's @ 3100 fps, nor is it comparable to a 6.5 shooting a 140gr bullet @ 2850 fps in the wind, but equal in elevation. To make it fair among calibers though BC should be a factor and we can give it a "Ballistic Advantage score".

Bullet weight x mv = pf
The 308 with 155 @ 3050 would have a pf of 472.75
The 300 WM 190 3100 fps = 589 pf
The 6.5 140 2850 = 399 pf
The above doesn't work as it gives the advantage to the 308 over the 6.5 and we all know that isn't the case. Yet, add in the BC and call it the Ballistic Advantage score and everything starts to make more sense.

bullet weight x mv x BC = BA score
155.5 Berger FB BC = .464
190 SMK BC = .533
Berger 140 Hybrid BC = .618
223 80.5gr Berger FB 3050 fps BC = .436

308 BA score = 220
300WM BA score = 314
6.5 BA score = 247
.223 BA score = 107

Figure out where you want the cut off to be in BA score. For example, everything with a BA score less than 225 is Limited division and everything over is Open division.
Gas guns are gas guns and go head to head evenly. If you start breaking it down in multiple classes you will only hinder participation and water down the results.

Set qualifications for national level (IV) vs regional (III) vs state (II) vs local level (I) matches. Any club that qualifies can have any and or all with only 1 national match/finale annually. Rules and standards for each level are different. Example, K&M could hold all 4 levels at their facility. Some facilities don't have the range distance or space to accommodate number of shooters available to hold anything more than a monthly or Level I match.

Keep it simple, it will take it's course.
Elect a director for each region that will represent the people of that region and vote on rules.
Begin design on a set of "classifier stages" that represent basic firearms handling/manipulation/safety/accuracy/speed that can be held at any level match so that the classification system can get established.
It's a start, and that's what the TRL needs at this point.

And just because I choose not to post doesn't mean I'm banned, it just means that I don't have much to contribute to a conversation where most think they already know the answers. From the looks of this thread, many are clueless.

Rob O and Tony G shoot multiple disciplines in firearm competitions and much could be learned if you LISTEN/READ what they say. They have experience many here don't.

 

[forrestgump01]

There is nothing wrong with having a regional match status, check the ego at the door. It's about having rifle matches so that we can all enjoy shooting. A friend and I started doing a long range match back in 2007. .

You and a friend............really............. don't you mean - YOU and your GRAMPAW !
HAAAAAAAHAAHAAA.........SORRY , I COULDNT RESIST !!!!!!!!!!

 

[FreedomGunworks]

Also, look at the PRS schedule and the location of the matches. There can be more matches on the east coast and PNW, PRS is selective about the matches they allow to be a part of the series and that doesn't help much in the grand scheme of promoting growth.

 

[Red_SC]

A friend and I started doing a long range match back in 2007. We spent thousands and thousands of dollars buying steel and landscaping a piece of property to make it suitable. The first year was tough for all involved. We learned, we grew, we got better, and so did our match. We lost a lot of personal money with that match, but we did it for the right reasons.

It's about time to shoot it again...

 

[damoncali]

I'm in favor of power factor style divisions instead of velocity. A .308 shooting 155's @ 3050fps isn't in the same league as a 300WM shooting 190's @ 3100 fps, nor is it comparable to a 6.5 shooting a 140gr bullet @ 2850 fps in the wind, but equal in elevation. To make it fair among calibers though BC should be a factor and we can give it a "Ballistic Advantage score".

Nice thoughts - especially the bit about not reinventing the wheel. The only thing I would quibble with is using weight and BC. BC is dependent on weight already, so your'e double counting weight. A heavy bullet has no advantage over a light bullet with the same BC. MV and BC are plenty.

 

[poison123]

So the only thing on the BC.....is what numbers are you going to use? We all know published BC is different from actual BC....and then add in the fact some people "point" their bullets for yet another increased BC.

 

[Big Dog Steel]

So the only thing on the BC.....is what numbers are you going to use? We all know published BC is different from actual BC....and then add in the fact some people "point" their bullets for yet another increased BC.

I brought that up a few pages back as well. It is probably simplest to just say published BC. Some mfg's are getting better at publishing accurate BC's, say Berger for example, others are not. Pointing can help you gain BC but I doubt it would be enough to throw you into another class. Even with pointing I can't get a 155 Lapua Scenar to their published BC.

 

[Lowlight]

I posted above,

Manufacturers listed BC... nobody should be bothered to have to search for the number being used. I understand people modify them all the time. Bryan Litz uses .473 or something for a 175, I use .496, the manufacturer uses .505 so that is what we use.

Anyone should be able to open up a web page or use something like JBM to get the BC from, on the fly.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

Nice thoughts - especially the bit about not reinventing the wheel. The only thing I would quibble with is using weight and BC. BC is dependent on weight already, so your'e double counting weight. A heavy bullet has no advantage over a light bullet with the same BC. MV and BC are plenty.

You're absolutely right, and I didn't think about that. MV x BC = Ballistic Advantage.
I also agree that published numbers should be used.
The hard part is going to be figuring out where the cut off should be.

 

[Lowlight]

Ok,

I have a few more things to do then I can do another wrap up and I am gonna create the forum sections to discuss this more in-depth.

But if anyone is sitting around this weekend and wants to summarize again, that would help as I will be out on the range most days while the weather is good

 

[Lucks]

I'm sure this has already been covered but I didn't see it so I'll ask.
Will the MV reported for this "Ballistic Advantage"(or whatever it'll be called) be on the honor system or will people actually be chronyed at matches?

 

[Lowlight]

Regional and above it will be choreographed, at the local level it will the honor system unless the individual match director sets up a stage to check it.

 

[fargo007]

Regional and above it will be choreographed, at the local level it will the honor system unless the individual match director sets up a stage to check it.

I would name such a stage:


JAZZZ HANDS.... ZAAAAH!

 

[pipeinspector]

I hope it's ok if I add my .02 here, near the beginning of this discussion Rob said people will be interested if this is fun. I couldn't agree more, it's that simple. I think you can take a lot of the fun away by making things overly complicated with the scoring. I know that good equipment outperforms mediocre equipment, but why punish a mediocre shooter because he saved up and purchased better stuff? I always told myself I could be as good as anyone if I had equip equal to theirs so I saved up & bought it and better shooters still kick my butt.

Also, why encourage a guy to shoot a certain caliber, bullet weight, etc.? Let shooters choose what they prefer or what they already have without putting them at an advantage or disadvantage. Bracket racing was supposed to level the playing field for drag racing but it became so boring who cared if it was fair or not. And the points awarded for distance would have to be calculated by target size correct? If you give a shooter more points for making a longer shot on a bigger target, or a longer shot on a fixed target vs shorter distance on a mover, that would have to be considered I think.

In the end I think you have to practice and have a little God given talent to be a winner just like in any sport. I'm a member of PRS and I rarely have the time/money to shoot a lot of matches and when I do I'm near the bottom of the score sheet, but I always leave having made new friends & learning things which have made me a better shooter. I've often wished they would do a pro & amateur class with some one day amateur matches. I think the one day matches would allow guys like me with less time & money to get more experience without missing as many days at work or spending as much cash on travel, hotels, etc as some of the bigger matches require to attend.

I shoot local USPSA matches and I think they have a good stair step system to get great shooters from local levels all the way to national levels to compete against one another, but their scoring system is complicated as well as their system for ranking shooters. I'm still glad to be a part of it locally because I have met great friends there and I'm a better shooter because of it.

I applaud LL & you others for taking on a great project, which is what this will be if you get it going. It took a long time for me to realize that the future of this sport & the 2A as a whole lies in involving & educating not only the youth but recruiting new shooters of all ages, genders, races, etc. There will be no way to please everyone with any one type of match, classifications, or scoring but as long as its fun, educational, & affordable I think it will be a success and certainly a work in progress the first few years so members will have to remember to be patient.

 

[Jedi]

<style type="text/css">P { margin-bottom: 0.08in; }</style> Lets face it caliber selection is based on wind cheating ability not obtainable velocity


Windage used is a better indicator than FPS
If the standard is
175 smk 2750fps 8.25MOA windage (FV wind 10mph) @ 1k


Then using whatever equation reflects standard
ie
Velocity x BC = Y (Standard)


How much difference in windage is fair? .25MOA, .5MOA?
I would think anything within .5MOA can be considered equal footing
So anything shooting better than 7.75MOA (FV 10mph) @ 1k is a different class (open whatever)
Thus leveling the playing field, more about shooter ability than $$ in equipment


My understanding thus far
Simple and effective means of minimizing equipment race


Now if you have a similar COF rating system, I can not see how this fails
Sorry I have NOT reread entire thread


Shoot any match, anywhere and compete with others around country on pert much same footing
Regardless of location or caliber/equipment used


whats NOT to like?

Conveying information in a manner that folk can grasp maybe the biggest challenge

 

[Lowlight]

I think the model discussed works fine and there is no reason to over complicate it. If a 175 does not get you within .5 MOA windage wise, you can move to a 155 going faster. If you can get 2750 out of a 175 you can get a lot more out of 155. But that is not the point and you are misguided in your thinking.

The idea is not be "fair" but to compare similar ballistics and not be comparing a 6mm @ 3150fps to a 175gr @ 2650fps... that is all we are looking for. You already know if you show up to any event with a 175gr 308 you are gonna be fighting an uphill battle by a field dominated by 6.5s and 6mms.

THE MATCHES DO NOT CHANGE ... we are not putting any rules or restrictions on the match, only looking at data after the fact to give a comparison that is more in line with what the shooter was using. You are shooting on equal ground against everyone else.

There is already a gear race on, if you look at the difference between last year, with the 6.5s you see the turn towards the 6mms... this is a gear race. The fact Vu's local matches at NorCal have no 308 shooting in them, that is a gear race.

When I get a chance I will move this to an easier thread to follow because clearly some people are confused by what is being proposed. Nobody is trying to create a fair playing field, only looking to compare data, and then rank that comparison.

@pipeinspector

I am curious though, what is the draw to pay a group knowing full well you can't compete at the level required. Either because of time, equipment or current skill set ? What leads you to want to pay for that knowing the money goes to the guys who are mostly sponsored, and mostly shooting more matches than you can ever make ? Doesn't make sense to me to pay for this privilege when you can just pick a match or two and show up for free and still know where you stood against the same people .

What makes a person pay money that is given back to a group that is already sponsored ?

 

[slavage]

there a way to give like a handicap type thing to people that do shoot say like the 308?
more new shooters that cant play the gear game will end up using the standard old 308 most of the ease of walking in to a store picking up a sps heavy barrel to get started and or that don't reload?

 

[FALex]

I'll vouch for the .308 shooting 175's being an uphill battle! I did it for years, continued to place near the bottom of our local comps at every match.

The first match I shot my .260 at, I got third.

And yes, I was a little perturbed that I waited three years to get into the 6.5, but I learned a ton from shooting that much .308.

And no, I am not spying any of the 6's... not right now, anyway

 

[pipeinspector]

LL,

You have a great point, I could shoot a few matches a year without being a PRS member and still have just as much fun. I don't mind paying the PRS dues because I felt that they are going to a worthy cause. I really like the idea behind the PRS and as far as how the money is being spent or managed, you would know way more about that than I do. I just like the fact that someone is trying to organize long range shooting. I think that we have gone without publicity from television, magazines , etc because of a lack of an organization. I see shows about USPSA, IDPA, and even cowboy action shooting because of the organizations not necessarily because there are more shooters interested in that sport than ours. That's the biggest reason I pay dues & try to help get the word out about the PRS is because currently if seems to be the best way to promote the sport & draw people's attention. I want rifle shooting to grow & I feel my dues would be helping that. I also think that the PRS is a work in progress & I'm optimistic that it will get better each year. Time may prove me wrong but I hope not. I know a lot of guys who shoot IDPA & USPSA, 2 leagues could really be a good thing, it would certainly give shooters/competitors more options.

I would also like to add that even though I know going into a PRS match that I'm not going to win, I enjoy watching and learning from the "pros" & I have always had guys like Wade & George give me tips and treat me with respect. I can't think of any other sport where amateurs can interact with the best in the field. Golf, tennis, basketball, nor any other game allows this and I think it makes better shooters out of all of us if we don't get upset because the guy next to me has a sponsor.

 

[Lowlight]

@pipeinspector

you do realize, technically the PRS does not host any match (except for the Finale) and that any match that calls itself a PRS match is just saying it allows the PRS members to use the Points awarded ? So I am confused as to why you couldn't shoot a match alongside these guys for nothing but the entry fee ? Why pay the extra layer, especially knowing the money is just rewarded to the Top Guys in the end. George, Wade, et al, go to a lot of matches and in the last year many of these matches did not sell out. So there was nothing special required to enter ? I believe they dropped the preferred treatment when it comes to slots so, where is the draw ?

I can see if they used the money to support a "PRS Match" but again that money, nor is their time or resources used to assist the match in any way. Basically that title, "A PRS Match" just means they get the points... nothing else. Is it just the idea that you have better odds of seeing George at one of these matches so paying to shoot alongside them makes it desirable ?

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I may not 100% understand everything as I've been doing a lot of reading between the lines since the thread is so long. These are my opinions and I'm just a shooter, not a match director.

First I think the TRL is an excellent idea as is expanding the sport. There are some excellent ideas here and I think a lot of people are in agreeance with most things. The first thing I notice is the divisions. If you're going to have divisions I believe they should be as level a playing field as possible and there's gotta be a way to level out cartridge/load performance in the same categories. I don't think somebody with a 308, 6.5 creed, 6.5x47 even with the best available bullet should be in the same division with a 243 with a 105 hybrid clocking 3150 nor should they be in the same division with a 7WSM, 300WM or whatever with some .650 BC bullet hauling ass.

I would also forgo a gas gun division and pair the chambering/load performance in the appropriate league. All things considered a gas gun really doesn't give anything up to a bolt gun with a load of equal performance but can run a little faster for follow ups.

I also wouldn't tailor a division to 223's just so some guy with 77's in an AR that won't be competitive doesn't feel left out. He's going to feel undergunned anyway when he's slinging lead out at 700, 800, whatever yards and isn't getting hits called because the spotter can't see/hear them. I wouldn't turn somebody away because that's what they choose to use but I wouldn't make a special division for it.

Basically I would make it as least complicated as possible with as few divisions as possible yet spread it out enough to where the equipment is as equal as possible so it comes down to shooter talent... if that makes any sense.

 

[pipeinspector]

You are 100% correct, the PRS doesn't offer something for everyone & personally I may not have gained anything from being a member when like you said, I could have shot the same matches with the same people without being a member. I don't know all the goals of the PRS but one of them was to put the best shooters competing against each other at the best matches. I think they did a good job of that and I don't mind paying a small fee to help that along. I know that there are some great matches that weren't counted in PRS scoring, and I'm sure there are some really good shooters who didn't sign on with the PRS. I feel like I'm defending the PRS in this conversation when really I agree with everything you said, I was just trying to say what I liked about the series personally. If nothing else I think it generated some new interest & energy for long range shooting. As a guy who likes shooting I've enjoyed watching the top guys compete as the season progresses but I could have done that without being a member.

 

[Jim See]

LL if you were to attempt to track the scores of many matches and many people, you would have a full time job with the data. Not even thinking about the leg-work to get every local/regional and national match, on the same course of fire, score/reward schedule. You would be doing this for what purpose? so you could tell the difference between the guy who shot the year in 1123rd place from the guy who shot 1124th? Or just to issue a classification card? I can see merit to a system that would be similar to the classifications of High Power or f-class, but attempting that in Tac matches with the venues that exist and the different courses of fire molded around the available space/terrain, would be an impossible task at best. Part of the fun of these matches is the differences in every event. Making every one the same, would simply become boring.
I commend you if your wanting to do a large scale classification system but in the realm of practical/tactical matches it just doesn't seem practical in so much as the standardization of the sport would change the sport, most likely negatively.

This thread and your discussion about this subject, really has no comparison with the PRS, The intent of the PRS was not to track every shooter, only the best shooters.

Now are these 175 PRS guys the best shooters in the country? some yes others no. But they all have the desire to test there skills against the best and that is why they joined and compete, even if at a limited basis, only making a match or two a year.

To be honest should a guy who shoots mid to low level scores join the PRS and pay the $100 a year. probably not, but if he chooses to, that is his prerogative. His intentions may be to track his improvement over a length of time, or like was stated earlier as a way to support the growth of the sport. That was how I started, I sent in my money the first year with-out ever shooting a "tactical" match in my life. I got into my first PRS match in 2012 at the august PTS match and figured I would shoot one match that year. Well after a 4th place finish, I found a way to get 2 more regular season matches in and a 24th place season rank into the finally. I finished the season ranked 13th after a 7th place finish at Rifles Only.

I was New,
I was NOT sponsored,
for my first 2 matches, I used a 6.5 barrel I had taken off an f-class gun with 800 rounds down it.
used a 300 dollar action with a PTG bolt.
sitting in a wooden stock I made.

I don't say this to brag, but to point out; the fact is the PRS organization and shooters are very accepting of new shooters, who have the intentions of competing at a high level regardless of there current skills.
As far as equipment and the arms race, I know of PRS matches being won this year with 6mm bullets as slow as 2890, and 6.5 bullets as slow as 2780.
The presumption that "all the top level guys are shooting 6mm at 3150fps, so I as a new guy can not compete" really does not hold water


I think your best approach would be to solicit the help of the state level clubs, they already have a information/networking system with all of there members, they usually accept a fairly large group of members. New clubs are relatively easy to start and organize in different regions, if you have a few people willing to work at a range and organize.

These clubs could classify their members via a formalized system that they may already have in place.

At that point you could track and classify a larger pool of shooters, and modify a general ranking system nationally. Other than starting that way, logistically you would have a very large mountain to climb.

 

[Lowlight]

@Jim See

Your defense of the PRS not withstanding, you are completely wrong about what the intentions are, and we not looking to make any the same or boring... You missed the point that was stated over and over on the first few pages, so don't expect me to repeat them.

who have the intentions of competing at a high level regardless of there current skills.

I can tell you this is false, sure they will accept your membership, but it has been clearly said to me, and not third party, that if you are not ready to commit to compete at the same level as the top guys, meaning hitting as many matches as possible, you really have no business competing with them. They even said in this thread by your fellow PRS Members that new shooters are not really welcome unless they are looking to commit to Sprint Cup Car level of time and energy. yes they want the best and if you are a new guy looking to enter the sport you're looking in the wrong place with the PRS. It's posted here, and was said to me on more than one occasion.

So instead of defending your chosen course, go and read what is actually being proposed instead of guessing, inferring and derailing the conversion.

 

[Jim See]

My chosen course? I chose to compete. What are you offering right this very minute that will allow me to do that?

If you want a series with a level playing field, go ahead and start a 308 series, I will be happy to join and bring out the old girl for a few matches a year.

 

[fargo007]

My chosen course? I chose to compete. What are you offering right this very minute that will allow me to do that?

If you want a series with a level playing field, go ahead and start a 308 series, I will be happy to join and bring out the old girl for a few matches a year.

Jim, you have missed or misunderstood a lot. Please read the entire thread.

 

[Jim See]

@Jim See




that if you are not ready to commit to compete at the same level as the top guys, meaning hitting as many matches as possible, you really have no business competing with them. They even said in this thread by your fellow PRS Members that new shooters are not really welcome unless they are looking to commit to Sprint Cup Car level of time and energy. yes they want the best and if you are a new guy looking to enter the sport you're looking in the wrong place with the PRS. It's posted here, and was said to me on more than one occasion.

This year 9 of the current top 11 ranked PRS shooters shot 6 or less of the 14 available matches. That level of commitment would be burdensome in your opinion?
Greg Wazniak made the finale this year shooting only 3 matches those being the first ever tactical/precision style matches he has shot, again a new shooter breaking into the ranks.
Yes they want the best, this is obvious to any sanctioned shooting event or sporting event in the country, it would be a joke if the skill level at a PRS event was that of a 2 high school teams playing in the Rose Bowl. BUT that doesn't give you the right to turn that into a negative aspect, of the PRS, based on opinion..

The opportunities are endless if your willing to compete.

Frank it is not my intent to degrade what you are trying to do here, like I said before, I commend you for it. But degrading the intent of the PRS to attempt to bolster your project does nothing to help your cause. You can bring your idea to fruition and I would be more than happy to join and compete as would many of the guys who shoot the major matches already available.

Good luck with your endeavor.

 

[Jim See]

Jim, you have missed or misunderstood a lot. Please read the entire thread.

Well you might be right.

My understanding is that Frank wants to;

Arrange a classification system to level out the ballistic advantages some cartridges offer over others.
Arrange a scoring system that is more standardized.
Rank or classify shooters based on the above into one list.

Is that a good general summary, or did I miss something else in the 12 pages?

 

[fargo007]

Well you might be right.

My understanding is that Frank wants to;

Arrange a classification system to level out the ballistic advantages some cartridges offer over others.
Arrange a scoring system that is more standardized.
Rank or classify shooters based on the above into one list.

Is that a good general summary, or did I miss something else in the 12 pages?

If you did read all 12 pages, you have missed a lot.

#1 - yes. If you tell us what you are shooting now and why, and compare that to the provided description of what you started with that will make it abundantly clear. This was gone over in great detail about 7 pages ago.

#2 - no.

#3 - no, not really.

Your summary of those three things is missing a LOT. The goals, the reasons for doing it, what it leads to, and why it's being done in this particular way are also very important in addition to the competition-specific elements you appear to be focused on.

HTH,

--Fargo007

 

[Lowlight]

@Jim See

You need to check your facts as well...

Greg, while he might have qualified is almost 85 PRS points below the top guy. In the overall standings he ranks 51st... My understanding is, they only use 3 matches, but you get multiple matches to get your score up high enough. I have no idea what matches he attended. Those 3 could have been within a few hours drive of Dallas for all we know. Saying he is top 11, in what I can't find, maybe Semi Pro... I look at a couple match results and didn't see him in any Top 25 scores ?

Really if you look at the website it is a year behind... you have to go to the spreadsheets to find the details and I am not interested in that. I highly doubt any search engine even recognizes a spreadsheet, so next year he'll be listed.

As far as your simplification of what we are proposing, there are much bigger elements you are clearly and probably purposefully leaving out.

The ranking and classification is for comparison, in a way to gauge your performance against the next guy that does so, not in an open way, but in a way that compares like equipment and similar matches. Overall Greg is 51st, I know nothing about the matches or his equipment, but I do know that is just a comparison of his 3 top match scores.

We are looking to assist local match directors, provide a resource that they can use to elevate the level of competition and to recruit new shooters.

Also we giving people a path to organize and create regional matches with our support. These regional matches will then feed into larger national matches. Again with support while at the same time not imposing any rules or changes on the match director. The matches are still an open competition, however the comparison comes after where a shooter can then analyze his numbers in a way that is an apples to apples comparison. We have also been working on a way to objectively rank matches to help the match director understand what others are doing and how they can raise the level of their competition.

It's about using the resources of the site, the traffic, the man power, and putting that out there so people use that resource to their advantage. More matches in more places, with a metric to rank both shooter and match.

He is a clue Jim, the SHC allowed the PRS to use our scores. They provided absolutely positively nothing to me as a match director. They took, and walked away. We had an open registration, and very few PRS members showed up, why it too far away from the TX & OK crowd to come in force, or the AZ / LV as it's easier to bounce the matches they know and can score well at then to go outside the pond to another. At least that is my take. Still I don't call the SHC a "PRS MATCH" as the PRS had nothing to do with it. Why as a match director would I attach that label on MY Match ? I can see if PRS guys helped, but they don't.

I am glad you like the PRS, more power to you. But I am simply responding to your false assertions if you feel that degrades the PRS, well you are not alone, as there are many members who feel the PRS does nothing but reward the Top guys who can afford the time and resources to meet the minimum requirements to qualify in the Top 50... or whatever their cut off number is. Anyone outside that Top 50... is left out in the cold, paying the way for the rest. They can barely list the shooters in their own group, (I can't find Greg's Profile) and they offer nothing to Match Directors in terms of resources. No promotion, Range Help, Support or any other basic service.

 

[Jim See]

I will agree with you on that one, they have fell well short in the info/web-site this year. Gregs best finish this year was at PTS I think he was 7th or 8th. he shoots a 6.5x47.
This year the PRS finale is taking the top 50 overall, some of which are new to the PRS in 2013, plus the top 20 "new guys" who would be classified as non-pro shooters.

Some of the Pro shooters from last year did not make the finally which could be based on; performance, lack of attendance, deployments, family issues, ect.

 

[Jim See]

HTH, I shot a 6.5 creedmoor wth 142 smk's at my last match. I still use the 6xc, but the drawback of a 6mm is at some matches some hits are not called due to the impact energies at long range may not move the steel enough for some spotters. I will be using the 6xc with 105 hy at the finale going 2980 fps.

 

[Lowlight]

Here is a way to consider it, the ranking part.

if you (or anyone) goes to a tactical rifle match, anywhere doesn't matter. You already know how you stack up in an open field. Your score is your rank, you don't really need someone else to tell you that you came in 35th out of 50 shooters. You know what you did wrong, whether your bullet was disadvantaged to push you over a certain point. That ranking exists at the match level, it's your score. It's open, it's not for debate.

Now take that same score, and apply the metric we are looking at too it. You can then say, against others shooting the same bullet, I fell behind. Take the course of fire you shot and you can say, the match was not as hard as "X" match but it was more challenging than "Y" I was thinking about attending. So I need to work on the following points, and maybe switch from the 168 I was shooting to a 175, 185, or maybe a 155, it may help me in a few areas I was lacking but otherwise felt confident in.

At at the same time a match director can go home, and while planning for the next match, look at the competition metric and see how his event scored. He can then come here and compare, at the same time mine ideas for a new course of fire that might up the overall competitiveness of the event while staying inside the lines of what he has to work with. Look at K&M and what they do with 90 acres or so. Imagine a guy with 250 acres that want to use that land in a way that makes the match better. He now has a resource to accomplish these things.

Its not just about competing with the PRS, crowning a champ. That is easy, you could have gone back before for the PRS found a few guys that shot 3 or more matches, tally their scores and crowned a champ without them even being present. There is a history prior all this. If the model is to crown the winner using an aggregate well welcome to several other shooting sports. But there are missing elements in a direct comparison.

 

[fireguyty]

@Jim See

He is a clue Jim, the SHC allowed the PRS to use our scores. They provided absolutely positively nothing to me as a match director. They took, and walked away. We had an open registration, and very few PRS members showed up, why it too far away from the TX & OK crowd to come in force, or the AZ / LV as it's easier to bounce the matches they know and can score well at then to go outside the pond to another. At least that is my take. Still I don't call the SHC a "PRS MATCH" as the PRS had nothing to do with it. Why as a match director would I attach that label on MY Match ? I can see if PRS guys helped, but they don't.

Frank,
I know you hate my guts, and you don't believe that I keep popping in here to help, and so that my section of the country can have a say in what is to come.

However, you need to realize that lots of folks didn't come to your match flat out due to logistics. When I heard about your match I pissed my pants a little bit....litterally. I knew it was going to be great, and from my friends that attended, it exceeded expectaions.

If you check your original anouncement for it, I posted 2 hours after you and my question was, what is the closest airport? For me it was going to cost 6 days off of work. Tuesday to fly and then drive. Wednesday is mandatory check in. Shoot Thursday to Saturday. Travel Sunday. The time off alone would kill me. Then the closest airport was a 4 hour drive, and the closest hotel with available rooms was an hour. Most of us have jobs and limited income.

You have a ton of valid reasons for wanting to do your own series, but I think the lack of attendace from PRS shooters was not of purpose but due to lack of fundage. I figure that every shooter with in range of dragging a travel trailer to that match attended. I know I am still upset that I wasn't there.

Just my perspective,
Ty

 

[Lowlight]

If you check your original anouncement for it, I posted 2 hours after you and my question was, what is the closest airport? For me it was going to cost 6 days off of work. Tuesday to fly and then drive. Wednesday is mandatory check in. Shoot Thursday to Saturday. Travel Sunday. The time off alone would kill me. Then the closest airport was a 4 hour drive, and the closest hotel with available rooms was an hour. Most of us have jobs and limited income.

Again this is not true...

Casper Airport is 40 Minutes from Douglas... The closest hotels this year were within 15 minutes from the range. *(we even went ahead and secured rooms for people if they called and said it was for the SHC)

Logistically it was easier this year than last year that is true. The Fires in WY and the Oil Companies secured all the rooms leaving us out in the cold as we didn't know what was going on. Once we realized this, we made plans well ahead for 2013 and coordinated with the local hotels. It also appears the 2014 SHC will be 1 hour outside Denver / DIA with no issues with hotels or logistics.

Denver was 4 hour away, but it was not necessary to fly into Denver for many it was just easier.

Now take your same rational and overlay to people who have to fly to TX, OK, AZ, FL, or LV in order to a attend a PRS Match. It leaves pretty much everyone north of OK out of luck and East of the Mississippi. Those places have several matches within driving distance compared to the rest of the country. How do you think that new shooter feels, especially when the minimum is 3 matches.

I understand the time and expense of traveling and going to a match. Which is why we are looking to help this and focusing a big part of effort towards the matches.

 

[Hootiewho]

I run a 2 & 3 gun match in SC. Running said match has pretty much burnt me out on competitive AR & pistol shooting. I am getting more into precision rifle. I have been trying to get some of the good dudes at my match into it as well. I have a couple suggestions and Frank you may already have these squared away.

I would have a mil/le with mil/le equipment class. I am LE & currently learning to shoot the .308 in a precision aspect is my goal. There are LE guys with dept rifles & ammo who I am sure would much rather be shooting against their own vs a screaming 6mm. They may be stuck only with FGMM & want to stick with that.

Beginners. The biggest complaint is cost from new folks. It is very expensive to be competitive. I would consider some entry level class to work the new guys in easy where they don't feel they have to drop $10k to play.

Prizes. This site is a HUGE resource. I would think hard about using what you are working toward as a way to expand the training series. Let local matches have prizes of 1-2 months of online training free. Bigger matches have training certificates for the better schools. I would much rather have $5k worth of training than a 5K rifle. I realize not all are not that way, but many are.

With training, esp online training as prizes, many more people could "get something", and something very valuable at that from placing.

 

[kraigWY]

I'll chime in, not that anyone cares. I shoot for one reason, FUN, I'm too old to care if John Doe out shoots me.

What I do like is KISS. I like the idea of SPEED.

I like 308/30-06 'n such, I want to know how I stand with 308-'06 shooters. It's a better judge of MY shooting. And lets face it, I'm shooting for ME.

Other then that, keep the scoring simple so I can see how I shot compared to my last match.

I shoot a lot of action pistol type shooting. They have different stages, and they are all fun, but at the end, I have no idea how I did compared to my last match. I just don't understand the scoring.

Having said that, anything that gets more shooters involved gets my vote.

Something that hasn't come up (or if it did, I skipped over it) is there are a lot of old dudes with a touch of COPD. Might want to take that into account when designing matches.

 

[Rob01]

Now take your same rational and overlay to people who have to fly to TX, OK, AZ, FL, or LV in order to a attend a PRS Match. It leaves pretty much everyone north of OK out of luck and East of the Mississippi. Those places have several matches within driving distance compared to the rest of the country.

Amen!

 

[Rob01]

Something that hasn't come up (or if it did, I skipped over it) is there are a lot of old dudes with a touch of COPD. Might want to take that into account when designing matches.

It was brought up by me Kraig that there are some older shooter that like to shoot and a bunch of hard chargers came in and basically said if you can't do the physical part that you should stay home. Sorry

Starting here on page 11 about halfway down at post 420. Give it a read.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0-2014-approaches-does-need-addressed-11.html

 

[JoeZ]

If I may,

First let me thank you in advance for this, I think it's brilliant. Small time clubs with our not so grand matches can compare with shooters just like us from all over. I also offer my services, such as they are, to forward this project as long as we are working toward improving and increasing the rifle shooting community.

A few comments on the TRL ranking system;
1: if there are some optional points for items like different firearms (pistols, shotguns), or weather (some have wind, some have heat or cold), or other variables; please put training or train-ups in there. A person should score points as a trainee or also a trainer. The complaint about "buying points" is disingenuous."there is always one more thing you can do to increase your odds of success" Col Hal Moore. A good competitor will rely on all his strengths and face it money is not evil, envious people are.
2: The average target range should ignore the pistol and shotgun targets range( sorry if this item is self-evident)
3: If this endeavor is successful, updating things on your forum here will become a real chore. Spread the work load out to a regional or state "moderator" with different forum permissions to deal with updates and complaints.

I hope this goes for 2014 as I have a match I'd like to include and am working on a Designated Marksman match for 2014.
Thx
JoeZ

 

[kraigWY]

Thanks Rob01, seems you for one understand.

Fitness is a choice

I agree with that, I chose to spend 20+ years on jump status, my knees paid the price for my choice. I would make the same choice again. If that precludes me from Tactical Rifle, so be it.

I'll stir my efforts toward the CMP GSM Vintage Rifle games then. They still welcome old soldiers and old rifles.

 

[fireguyty]

Again this is not true...

Casper Airport is 40 Minutes from Douglas... The closest hotels this year were within 15 minutes from the range. *(we even went ahead and secured rooms for people if they called and said it was for the SHC)

Logistically it was easier this year than last year that is true. The Fires in WY and the Oil Companies secured all the rooms leaving us out in the cold as we didn't know what was going on. Once we realized this, we made plans well ahead for 2013 and coordinated with the local hotels. It also appears the 2014 SHC will be 1 hour outside Denver / DIA with no issues with hotels or logistics.

Denver was 4 hour away, but it was not necessary to fly into Denver for many it was just easier.

Now take your same rational and overlay to people who have to fly to TX, OK, AZ, FL, or LV in order to a attend a PRS Match. It leaves pretty much everyone north of OK out of luck and East of the Mississippi. Those places have several matches within driving distance compared to the rest of the country. How do you think that new shooter feels, especially when the minimum is 3 matches.

I understand the time and expense of traveling and going to a match. Which is why we are looking to help this and focusing a big part of effort towards the matches.

This is besides the point, but I worked for about 8 hours on travel arangements trying to make that shoot fly. Casper was to cost and time prohibited due to it being small and there for limited flights with connectors requiring an additional day either way. About the hotel......damn, I wish I would have known that.

I am looking forward to the Denver SHC. I will certainly try to get to that.

As far as the shooters with no access to quality shoots, I certainly hope your efforts here will alleviate that!

As far as the matches you listed, I think one of the reasons AZ, and LV fill up so fast and have long reserve lists because of the logisics. Here in Vegas we are fortunate in that respect because airfare is so cheap and logistics are so easy. Also, we happen to have a lot of wives that seem to want to accompany thier husbands to our shoot, as this town is a global destination.

These things along with amount of time required (days off of work) can change a match from a $800 deal to a full blown $3000 ordeal. I really do think that this is the reason that not to many PRS shooters attended. I know its why I couldn't.

Ty

 

[FreedomGunworks]

Well you might be right.

My understanding is that Frank wants to;

Arrange a classification system to level out the ballistic advantages some cartridges offer over others.
Arrange a scoring system that is more standardized.
Rank or classify shooters based on the above into one list.

Is that a good general summary, or did I miss something else in the 12 pages?

Jim, let me clarify a few things for you. First, there is a difference between classification and division. Classification is how well you score/shoot in your chosen division.

To classify a shooter in any division, he would only have to shoot a few "classifier" stages built into any match he attends. Any match that chooses to participate in the Tactical Rifle League needs to have a simple 100 yard drill incorporated in the match. That should be NO problem for any match director. This drill would be known as a standards exercise. For example, it could involve loading the weapon with a magazine if available, assuming a prone position, and firing a 5 shot group for score with a 1 minute par time. Your score would be compared with everyone else across the globe and a classification could be established. I propose the TRL start with no more than 6 of these drills to start with so enough data can be gathered in the first year to establish a classification for the shooters that participate. It's super simple and other organizations have implemented it with great success.

The divisions would be something like open, limited, and gas gun. Classifications could be amateur, pro, and grand master. A single shooter could become a Pro Open shooter, a GM Limited shooter, and an Amateur Gas Gun after he has shot enough classifiers in each division.

 

[Jim See]

Jim, let me clarify a few things for you. First, there is a difference between classification and division. Classification is how well you score/shoot in your chosen division.

To classify a shooter in any division, he would only have to shoot a few "classifier" stages built into any match he attends. Any match that chooses to participate in the Tactical Rifle League needs to have a simple 100 yard drill incorporated in the match. That should be NO problem for any match director. This drill would be known as a standards exercise. For example, it could involve loading the weapon with a magazine if available, assuming a prone position, and firing a 5 shot group for score with a 1 minute par time. Your score would be compared with everyone else across the globe and a classification could be established. I propose the TRL start with no more than 6 of these drills to start with so enough data can be gathered in the first year to establish a classification for the shooters that participate. It's super simple and other organizations have implemented it with great success.

The divisions would be something like open, limited, and gas gun. Classifications could be amateur, pro, and grand master. A single shooter could become a Pro Open shooter, a GM Limited shooter, and an Amateur Gas Gun after he has shot enough classifiers in each division.

Thank You for that clear and concise example, I total get the intent now, and as such it seems much more simple then the 12 pages of rambling thoughts that I was struggling to put together. So for example at any given match, 6 of the stages would be "classifiers" ; distance, target size, and time would all be standardized. So in comparing the data the only variable would really be the daily conditions it was shot in. Thus producing as close of a comparison of each shooter with-in their respective division.

 

[Lowlight]

No Jim

A classifier can be one stage if that was the route we chose to go... we have talked about it, but that is not something that had wide spread support. Classifying the shooter to that degree. But it can be one stage if we wanted to break it down into Pro, Semi Pro, Amateur... it was also noted so people don't sandbag this stage, you would move them up if they came in the Top 3 of a match. So scoring well would move you up one classification.

As another example, you can have the shooter line up at 100 yards (as many as can fit) and shoot 3 shots standing, 3 shots kneeing, a magazine change and 4 shots prone for score. This would classify their standing for that period. It can be a mix of time and score to help break it down. But that would be an example of a classifier stage.

It does not require "X" number of stages to do this...

 

[FreedomGunworks]

USPSA had ez-win score that allows match directors to upload scores to a common data base. It ain't that difficult. Those that don't understand how easy that is don't know what they don't know. The only thing I see difficult is ranking the individual matches. Forget using wind as a factor, it's entirely too subjective. An easier way would be rounds fired and average distance. If a match fires 40 rounds at 100 yard paper drills and 30 rounds at 400 yard steel, 20 rounds at 600 yard steel, and 10 rounds at 800 yard steel, it has a total of 100 rounds with an average distance of 475 yards, but we have to go a little deeper to get an "accurate average" as 40% of the match was fired at 100 yards.

 

[FreedomGunworks]

LL is correct Jim. The idea is to only shoot 1 classifier stage for the entire match. To get the classification system rolling though it would be great if a MD could do one of the 6 on the first day of the match and another on the 2nd day of the match. The more data that is available the better the classification system would work. The classifiers would be EXACTLY the same at every match across the country though, except environmental conditions which are a minor factor at 100 yards. Same target everywhere every time. Same distance, same height from the ground, same par time, same scoring method.

Just think, if every local tac rifle match across the country was doing this, we would have a solid data base in a short period of time.

 

[fargo007]

USPSA had ez-win score that allows match directors to upload scores to a common data base. It ain't that difficult. Those that don't understand how easy that is don't know what they don't know. The only thing I see difficult is ranking the individual matches. Forget using wind as a factor, it's entirely too subjective. An easier way would be rounds fired and average distance. If a match fires 40 rounds at 100 yard paper drills and 30 rounds at 400 yard steel, 20 rounds at 600 yard steel, and 10 rounds at 800 yard steel, it has a total of 100 rounds with an average distance of 475 yards, but we have to go a little deeper to get an "accurate average" as 40% of the match was fired at 100 yards.

Easy Peazy.

I made a worksheet already to easily calculate this.

e.g.

10 shots @ 100Y = 1000

10 shots @ 400Y = 4000

5 shots @ 600Y = 3000

10 shots @ 500Y = 5000

Total distance: 13000

divided by 35 shots total = 371Y average.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AtSr2kaqAtDtdGpJQ0RpY3NQaWl3OWtfOXRtaFBLUGc&output=html

It's hasty and I only did it to flesh out the concepts. Think of it as a proof of concept and NOT a final product in any way.

--Fargo007

 

[FreedomGunworks]

The PRS grew some in 2013, even still matches are strong in the Texas and OK area and weak in other parts of the country. It doesn't make sense to join if there is only 1 match in a 6 hour radius of your home. Frank's proposition would change that. More shooters would get involved, and would get more practice/match experience. When Frank started the SHC matches they were about the only show in town. When we started ours, there were less than a dozen in the whole country. Some of the top PRS guys shot their very first match ever at our place. I personally would like to see the participation grow and the matches become more available. We were told our match couldn't be a PRS match because it went 308 only. Then we were told it couldn't be a PRS match because it involved handgun shooting. Now, the PRS match has both handgun heavy matches and 308 only matches in their series. Truth is, my partner and I are very forward and dogmatic people. We don't hesitate to speak our mind and that doesn't make us very popular people. My partner is one of the very best and most knowledgeable people I have EVER met. It would be impossible to find a better friend in another human being. He's a little rough in his delivery sometimes, but we all have our quirks. He's man enough to say it to your face instead of behind your back. Those that know me know I'm the same way.

 

[Jim See]

If you have only one stage per match or may-be two, how many matches would an individual shoot to get and accurate assessment of there skill for purposes of classification?

Will a 100 yard stage be of any real value in the classifying of precision long range riflemen?

When I shot the 2012 PRS I lived in WI, yes traveling was required, Missouri, Oklahoma, and Tennessee were all just a one day drive, car-pooling helped.