As 2014 Approaches does this need to be addressed ?

[Who Dat]

Frank,
I like your idea for a couple of reasons, the first I use to shoot 3 gun back before all of the crazy rules that took away the fun. Back before all of the teams, prize tables and sponsors were the big thing. The only thing that was required was a practical shooting safety check. It was just a bunch of shooters that got together to have a great shoot and to socialize and to work on their skill set and the sky was the limit for the stages. It was great the same things that you and Zak have discussed about outlaw matches and how the rules are generated by the match director and the commandments of gun safety. I think you guys are on the right track because I know a lot of novice shooters who would love to get into the sport but between their jobs, their wives complaining about the cost and the time off it becomes restrictive. I like your box theory and your speed theory, it would be cool to set it up to where you could break the U.S. down into segments for different divisions and then have a build up to a huge shoot like the SH shoot some where in the U.S.. This is where your box theory comes into play, not all ranges have the distances that we shoot out here but everyone will be exposed at some time to longer ranges and shorter ranges whether that be in practice or an event. You would then set up your event to where it has both dependent on the yardage of the range. I like the idea of the train up for around $20.00 to come shoot with a coach or an experienced shooter, that way it opens up the doors to more people getting into the sport by keeping the cost down. The chrono checks are a mute point mandate how many rounds that are needed for the shoot with extra rounds built into that number for a chrono check. One round before the event and one either during or after they finish all stages and the RO gets to pick his round from the shooter. I say put your thoughts in writing and do a dry run, you know the guys will come too participate to assist you, from there you modify it to fix the problems. I hate to say this but I would say not to have a prize table at every event lets make it old school where the guys are working on getting the points that they need and working on there skills from exposure. The sponsors will come for the big event, it would also be cool if this works to have a network come in to video it like TOP SHOT on the History Channel which is boring. The more shoots the better so there is more exposure and more opportunity in case you can not get off work to make a match. Fun is everything, that little three lettered word is what keeps the guys coming back time and time again. What PRS is doing is what happened in the 3 gun scene, not everyone wants to ride in that groove and you sure as hell as a beginner entering the ranks are not going to make headway anytime soon against the blessed gods in the neat jerseys. Your idea is bigger then that and gets more people into the sport, yes mistakes will be made working it up but that is normal. Now if you can find a way for the flatlanders to grow lungs for high altitude events you would please everybody,,,lol.

 

[gugubica]

I raffled off a Surgeon Build to my ROs, a non-practicing PRS member won and the competing PRS members complained I gave a Rifle to an RO.

Thats pretty weak. Unless the sponsor specifically tells you where they want their item to go, they get the same exposure either way. I am confident that the top finishers still left with some good stuff. If Wade wasn't pissed about it, then no one else should have been either.

 

[Lowlight]

The skill level might have some merit.

We are talking about a single stage in any given event that proves your qualifying score. Picture Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert.

I simple single stage that you score by time and hits. One that every single match anywhere can do, and that determines your ranking. Which then combines with your Rifle MV Division

Limited + Marksman would be your basic

You can still have a novice in the Open Division or Expert in the Limited.

In my mind the Team Division is there but more of a side bet... the members shoot as individuals and you can take the top 3 scores or something. (some teams have too many guys)

 

[Who Dat]

I like your thinking on the Team Division ....the members shooting as individuals.

 

[AtOne]

In my mind the Team Division is there but more of a side bet... the members shoot as individuals and you can take the top 3 scores or something. (some teams have too many guys)

Agree that it's a side thing run along with the scores already being posted in the regional scorning section. May need to make it top 4 scores with no one persons scores being used more than twice though if as said before that a team can consist on 2 people. That way its not all one shooter making up the team totals.

 

[Pthfndr-CA]

Since your proposed Tactical Rifleman League looks to be a series of big matches put on around the country, I don't see that many "new to the sport people" taking part in them due to time/money considerations and lack of experience. I would see them taking part in local monthly club matches to gain experience first.

That said, why the need for two divisions? If you want to level the playing field then why not just set a FPS cap of 3000 fps. Would that not bring things closer? It handicaps somewhat the 6mm, and if someone wants to shoot a .308 they can use heavy bullets or fast 155s. As Vu is fond of saying "a .308 155 at 2800+ is just a .260 heavy".

IMO, as a MD for a local monthly match, to grow the sport you need to get more new shooters in at the local club level, and have those club matches have COFs that are challenging enough for the good competitors, and still are not so difficult that new people get frustrated and turned off. At the NCPPRC monthly LR matches we have several different COFs we rotate through during the course of the year to do just that. Our every other month steel matches step up the game even more. Your "match in a box" concept would go far towards that I would think.

The training day idea is a good concept as far as raising revenue to help defray costs, but I do not think it a good idea to give points towards the series for participating in it. This is an expensive sport as it is, and many are hard pressed to take off enough time from work or spend the money for extra days.

 

[Lowlight]

Completely wrong go back and start reading, nobody said anything about big matches at all.. Nobody.

its local, regional, national, monthly local, qtr regional...

 

[Rob01]

Rob, not an attack, but I just want to clarify; I understand where you are coming from, I know a few guys that have backed off of the PRS because it stopped being as fun. They got so competitive and felt like they had to shoot every match...got burned out. A lot of that is a personal thing though, not a series or sanctioning body thing. People see your sponsor list and are a little confused about the "PRS made it no fun" stance. Sponsors are not going to throw money or products to shooters unless they have something to offer, usually lots of wins or high placements, this makes it competitive if you like it or not. They want people to see good shooters and think...Huh, he shoots Hornady ammo and is awesome, maybe I should try it. Again, not attacking, I know you are sincere, it just may not come off that way to guys who have not shot with you.

So, what is the answer to a "fun" match? Don't keep score? Don't have prizes or cash payouts?

Brian I don't take it as an attack. I didn't get burned out. For the years I have been doing this I know I can only shoot so many matches a year due to my work scedule and plan accordingly. This isn't my job or living. Just a hobby. I did it before any sponsors and I will do it after they go away. I do alot for my sponsors, which alot of them are friends and that is more the reason than anything they give me to use but I am not going to get into my personal relationship with my sponsors. Not getting too much into the sponsor thing in general either as that's not what this thread is about but you would be surprised who gets "sponsored". I have seen people that haven't seen the top 20 ever running around with shirts on. I am sure you have too. Having a shiny shirt doesn't mean you can shoot. And yes that Hornady ammo is awesome

The PRS came in like the government. They say they aren't there to run things but you give them and inch and they take a mile. Started with rules with one that always stuck in my craw the no coaching rule. I don't need it, as my past couple years record shows since the PRS came in and started with the rule, but it goes back to the new shooter who might be intimidated or not sure of himself and he was all worked up becuase he threw down his $75 to be one of the big guys shooting "PRS matches". Well if he doesn't know what he is doing and is hitting all over and can't see splash do you think he is having fun? We should be helping new shooters. Not letting them sit there frustrated and wondering why they spent all their hard earned money to get to this match.

MDs wanted the PRS name and bowed to what they wanted. Why they wanted the PRS name so badly I don't know as they were filling matches before and will continue to do so with or without it. Another thing it did was make it way more cut throat. I remember times that we used to shoot at Rifles Only and then friends would head out to the strip clubs at night and have fun like friends. Now it seems like it's looked at as cut throat combat with secrets and secret facebook pages and texts to convey info. Again, not fun. I shoot these matches for fun. Camaraderie. Keeping score is fine and should be done as it is a competition. Same for prize tables and payouts. Those should go by placing at the match. I have actually been shooting 3 Gun and USPSA this past year as I enjoy shooting. I don't come in anywhere near as high as I do at sniper matches but do I still think that prizes should be put out by place? Of course. That's competition.

Another thing I have been doing is teaching. I find it very rewarding helping new shooters. Guys come in not shooting past 100 yards and leave using hold overs and unders smacking multiple targets to 500 yards. Honestly it's more rewarding that a top 10 finish. I would like to help new shooters at matches too but it's not allowed. Well now it's not.

So to finish, no Brian I am not burnt out. Just fed up.

 

[McLarenross]

The skill level might have some merit.

We are talking about a single stage in any given event that proves your qualifying score. Picture Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert.

I simple single stage that you score by time and hits. One that every single match anywhere can do, and that determines your ranking. Which then combines with your Rifle MV Division

Limited + Marksman would be your basic

You can still have a novice in the Open Division or Expert in the Limited.

In my mind the Team Division is there but more of a side bet... the members shoot as individuals and you can take the top 3 scores or something. (some teams have too many guys)

That sounds like a good idea. What about moving up from Marksman to SS to Expert though? Would you shoot the qualifier at every match and have your score run as that just for that match?

 

[peaceatwar]

Lowlight,

Thanks for responding. I am trying to re-visit a few things. As for the speed limit I understand the classes. I would prefer a caliber limit and not a speed limit as pushing 155 Scenars 2950 FPS is far from pushing 140 Bergers 2900 FPS or 105 bergers 3150 FPS. However all would be overall your limit. I think what a lot of these matches are missing is something you have offered which is a friendly interface to post scores, courses of fire, a ranking system, and tracking. Do you have this already? Do you need some development in this arena? Part of me is thinking of the "Build it and they will come approach". Have you, personally, reached out to the MDs on the hide about hosting the scores on this site? You carry a lot of weight in the tactical community and it could be the difference. Even the late Joe Paterno would personally visit the houses of the recruits he wanted to join the team at PSU. I'm not suggesting that you show up at MDs houses but they are the ones that can make this take off even further. The forum names of MD's that come to mind from my area of the woods are Tpohuski7, Fargo007, and SteveinMD.

How can the shooter like me help? I'm not talking about taking people shooting and dragging them to matches. I already do that, including giving them gear to use if they need it. How does the shooter who isn't a match director help your concept move forward?

 

[deadly0311]

Im with Rob about the PRS. The no coaching thing is bogus, thats one of the very reasons I go to these matches. This past weekend at the Steel City match it was honestly fun seeing all the seasoned shooters helping the guys who this was their first match out shooting. You know what came of it? Everyone had fun and I didn't see anyone get their panties in a wad about anything.

I like Frank's idea and I think it would be great to see something like he is proposing. I firmly agree on the 2 divisions, its just not fair when you have a guy running a 6mm thats 6.5 mils to 1k and very little wind drift then the new shooter shooting a bone stock 308 with factory ammo. I also agree that you break it up into 4 or 5 regional divisions and take the top 20-30 shooters after from that division and have a "Finale". The PRS turned into a back room lets give each other a reacharound kind of deal. The guys who don't have time to shoot all these "qualifying" matches and such are left hanging in the wind.

My 2 cents are worth just what you paid for them. I would love to see more local matches that are 1-1.5 day matches within driving distance with reasonable match fees.

 

[Disturbed]

It is hard for me to make a multiple day match.

 

[Unknown]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Using velocity to calibrate major/minor power would be time consuming and a major pain. Even though IPSC/USPSA has had similar rules, I have never seen a chronograph at any local matches. Having to set up and run the chrono would take quite a bit of extra "man hours". An alternative would be to pick a case capacity, and anything over a specified case capacity would be major power, anything under would be minor power. The case picked as the cut off would be no less arbitrary than picking the velocity cut off.

2. I certainly understand how having a good coach can dramatically improve performance. It is no different than having a spotter who is really good at reading wind helps out a sniper. In order to encourage new shooters, the organization could allow coaching for any shooter for his first few matches. This would help new shooters feel less on their own, and encourage new participation, while making the more experienced shooters go it on their own.

The gamesmen will show up regardless of how many, or few rules the organization puts in place. This always happens when competitions begin to get bigger, and more contested.

In our local matches, we put a rule in place that requires all shooters to shoot the course of fire the way the course designer intended. That way everyone shoots the stage the same way. It is the responsibility of the shooter to insure they understand how the course of fire is to be completed in order to avoid penalties. We wanted our matches to be a shooting contest where the "exercise" was completed in the same way by all competitors so the skill required by the exercise could be evaluated evenly. So far, it has worked out really well at keeping gamesmanship to a minimum.

Requiring this (everyone shooting the course the same way) hasn't changed who comes out on top in the matches..it is always the best shooter. We have minimized the chance for the best "gamesman" to come out on top. Although thinking with firearms is always a good thing, the competitors are there for a shooting contest, not a mental game contest.

 

[Disturbed]

I personally like the idea of divisions. Most shooters buy a .308 to start with. The limited division would naturally be the entry level division until you decide if shooting matches is something you want to invest lots of money in.

 

[Lowlight]

The Speed Limit Stays...

It's 2800fps and Below

2850fps and above

That makes it Fair not perfect... On the local level it's up the individual match director, we have plenty of experience using chronographs during a match takes no extra manpower. It's simple. However if it's local do you really need to chronograph each other that much ? You should be more familiar with the shooters around you.

Regionally I will make sure the Regional Directors have a chronograph. Hell I will get a Chronograph Sponsor ... It's there that matters the most. If you cheated on the local level and move up to the Regional you will get caught.

Let's have a bit of faith in our fellow shooter than they are not gonna manipulate a number to win your local match. But true be told ... IT DOES NOT MATTER. Because it's just about the score at that level. If you say, you're in the Limited Class and get a regional with a bullet over 2850fps or over 2800fps by more than 15-20fps you'll get moved up. There is a bit of room there to move. The point is not to change what people have or how they run their local matches. Guidelines not rules...

The skill set I think should be run as a single event whenever possible. Say you have to have at least 2 skill stages shot before a regional and if you win a regional you move up in class. (Unless expert) Movement through winning will eliminate sandbagging. Heck is so easy to do, it can be Top 3 in Marksman and Sharpshooter move up one.

The speed limit is good, it's not perfect but we don't want it to be, because we don't a reason to chase it. It just helps balance out the field.

I have already gave you examples, a 155gr at 2800 is only .5 mils in wind off a 6.5 @ 2800... fairness. That is all, still competitive, still a competition.

 

[SRSDriver]

Perhaps we need the Affordable Classification Act (ACA), which will ensure that all Americans have access to affordable top-5 match placement.

If you like your placement, you can keep your placement.

Or something...

 

[pyrofx]

Frank ,
On coaching .

How about something simple as ...pick a number of matches . Say 3 and after that no more coaching . Or , if you are in the top XX 10 or 15 , coaching is not allowed. I hate that we have to so down to the details to keep thing honest . I also think the reason that the top guys worry so much is because of the prize table . Without the table , people seem to have more fun shooting and having a good time . After all , when money isn't involved , accidentally shooting the hostage is great for a few laughs at the bar .

 

[LawnMM]

I raffled off a Surgeon Build to my ROs, a non-practicing PRS member won and the competing PRS members complained I gave a Rifle to an RO.

I thought it was a great idea, personally, since without the ROs the friggin matches won't even happen, that gave people a great incentive to help out if they didn't want to compete. Hell, as a guy that shot that match, I could have RO'd if I wanted a rifle and my odds would have been like 1 in 15 instead of 1 in 125. Nothing wrong with what you did for those guys that stood in the rain and wind and scored shots for us.

 

[Unknown]

I can live with velocity as the deciding factor for major/minor power. Because I only run local matches, I would hope it would be OK for me to simply ask the competitors what the velocity of their load is and go with that. I wouldn't be too keen on having a newbie show up at a match and shoot my chronograph, and taking their word for velocity saves me from possibly having to buy a new chronograph.

In matches that are all steel would the major/minor even matter? Although a 69 grain bullet out of a 5.56 could make major, when the distance approaches 600 yards, there is a very real world difference between a hit from that round, and a hit from a 142 grain bullet at 2900 fps. The 5.56 shooter provides a build in disadvantage for themselves as it is very hard to tell if the 69 grain bullet even hit the steel, while it is easy to determine the hit from a 142 grain bullet at 2900 fps.

On coaching, I could go either way. I like to encourage new shooter's participation, but realistically, this sort of shooting is an "advanced" activity, and people wanting to participate should already know their weapon system and how to use it. Rules on coaching either way could be problematic though.

There could be a penalty for anyone providing coaching, but if the "coach" isn't a competitor, the penalty would have to go to the shooter. Then the problem would be whether you penalize the shooter when someone from the crowd shouts out unsolicited suggestions like "Come up one mil, and right half mil". That would be an unfair advantage for the shooter, but how a shooter is penalized for unsolicited advice would require some thought.

As for prize tables, I always liked the matches where the pick from the prize table is done by lottery. Every competitor who completes the match has an equal chance of winning the "big prize". Everyone has an equal incentive to come out and shoot for prizes, and no one feels as if their entry fee is primarily there to buy prizes for the professional shooters.

If the sport gets large enough, profesionals will come out simply to win and get the glory and endorsements that go along with winning many big matches. Granted, glory doesn't pay the bills, but endorsements eventually will.

 

[Cascade Precision]

I have yet to hear the way to classify a group of shooters before they shot ?

How many matches to establish an average and how do you do this without it being up the shooter to decide where they want to shoot ?

Muzzle Velocity slows the gear race down, it puts similar equipment together while still allowing everyone to participate and to prove themselves against something that might be considered a better rifle. Image the new shooter with a 308 that beats a 6.5CM inside the Limited Class... that is a motivator. By putting all the really good equipment together, via speed, that is a line everyone can relate too, instead of randomly assigning someone a personal classification.

What happens when a top ranked 3Gun guy who is sponsored steps into Precision Rifle and shooter his first match with a Top end rifle, is he considered a Novice because he never shot a long range match before ?

In order to classify a group of people you need a measurement to use, we don't have that measurement yet, at least nobody has presented a viable argument for one.

Been following this, only on the top of page 3, so forgive me if this has been covered.

This is for local matches to get local guys out and shoot. Yes?
Then, why add in all kinds of rules, classifications, what-not? No reason to.
Guy wants to come out and shoot his AR. Awesome. Guy wants to shoot his 30-06. Awesome. The point is to establish a relative breaking point for overall rifle performance.

As for shooter classification, I think Frank is right.
It needs to be velocity, and an honor system at that. A chrono at local is just too much work. If someone wants to cheat their way into a top finish by saying their 6.5 whateverthehellitis only shoots 2775 fps to get into the lower bracket even though it is truly shooting 3100, so what. The idea is to get people out shooting.

I for one would be happy to guinea-pig this program at my range. I have, in the past, broken classes into internal box rifles and DBM rifles, but truth is it is the individual shooter that does the work. Guys with 5 round internal mags keep up with and beat me. Means I need to shoot better.

This will just give the slower shooting 308 rifles a better chance against a 2775fps 6.5cm or whatever. Ballistics are not substantial enough at that velocity to make a HUGE difference.

Go grab your rifle and your big-boy-pants and go shoot.

Let me know what I can do to help/tryout your target(s) for this Frank.

 

[Idaho338Norma]

On the coaching topic, I see no reason to forbid it. How about running shooters through the stages in pairs, one from limited and one from open. They are not competing against each other and this may encourage some coaching. Just try to keep sponsored team members from being paired up to keep things fair. If you don't want to be coached just let them know, but I haven't met a single person who didn't appreciate some kind of insight during a match. Why withhold information to shooters at the local or regional level? Coaching helps improve the sport in my opinion. Once the best of the best get together at say SHC for the championship, coaching could be forbidden to showcase a competitors true skill. Just spit-balling here

 

[Lowlight]

I have no issue with coaching a new shooter... what they didn't want and I understand the PRS here, was two guys working together on the line. But really we don't shoot that way.

My only thought would be in an individual match "Team Members" cannot help each other on the line (which I believe the intent) However an individual helping a new shooter is a completely different story. If a Top 20 Shooter is being helped by a Top 10 shooter, that is a bit gray to me and not within the spirit of the competition. But if a Top 10 shooter is helping a Bottom 10 Shooter that is.

I honestly was not planning making a Rule of this kind or any... that is the up to the individual match.

Guidelines with best practices, are different, they are not RULES. It's up the Match Director to decide.

 

[Lowlight]

Maybe I should write an objective:

Preserve the Creative Independence of the individual Match Director

 

[ashland]

I've only recently started shooting these tactical matches and enjoy them very much. Shannon and Bryan have encouraged shooters at K&M to help one another during the Panhandle Shooter Challenge matches. Those are the only ones I've gone to. I don't think they allow it at the larger matches. I will say this, the one day matches are far easier for me to make due to work and family obligations. I hope this idea encourages more matches to take place.

Palo Alto Gun Club is another good range where people could show up with whatever they had and were encouraged to just go shoot. Its mainly F-Class though. People there were more than willing to help. I guess my interest in shooting matches started at Palo Alto.

 

[GONE BAD]

Well just when I start to get into this sport SHTF. Anyway I hope this all gets worked out! I see a lot of concern over speed. All the matches I've look at gave a speed limit and said we will do random checks. Here everyone talks about how hard it really is to enforce. Well I always thought speed would be checked with a Magnetospeed . How stupid am I ? Pretty simple or am I missing something?

 

[Lowlight]

Speed is not a Problem... a Match's Speed Limit is to protect their Steel. If you go over 3100 - 3200fps it ruins the steel, especially during a competition. It can break welds and destroy an expensive steel targets. So they limit the FPS as a safety measure. Steel is expensive and if you have guys breaking it, it stops the match and causes all sorts of problems.

Do not confuse this with what we are talking about.

The reason to divide the match up into two Divisions based on Speed is not the same as the Matches concern. It's because Speed gives an advantage in both Drop & Drift. so if you have a guy shooting a 308 at 2650fps and one shooting 6mm @ 3150fps there is no way the 308 can compete. It's a complete blow out. As noted at the K&M Match, 14 of the Top 20 were shooting a 6CM, and they did not note how many more were shooting something similar they only looked at 6CM. So It's an Open Field...

it's not hard to enforce, unless you have never done it. It can easily be enforced if you wish to do so. On a local level the honor system should not be a problem. If a local match wants too it can easily be set up to check and only takes one round and really you don't have to do much. A MagnetoSpeed would be the slowest method, it requires more work. On and Off every rifle. A regular Chronograph or the Acoustic Chronograph is the fastest option.

 

[Skigolfmike]

Very interesting and good ideas. Speed is an answer, but I'm not sure it's the whole answer. A 708 shooting 180s at 2700 has the same ballistics to 1K that a 6.5 at 2900 has and is still way better than a 308 with about the same recoil. It's not a 6mm at 3100 or a 6.5 at 3050, but it's pretty good. OTOH, in my experience, making the game too complicated isn't a good idea either.

 

[Cascade Precision]

Now having read everything thus far, I am still all for this.

Nothing that "either side" (Frank and PRS) do well ever be perfect. Frank's suggestion about the TRL is good, not perfect. What it does help with is me, a small town MD, getting matches going with some of the details i may not have had the experience to learn.

It gives my shooters a way to compare themselves with the shooters in Washington and California. That way if they decide to go on down the road to shoot, they have a fair idea how they may do overall. (If they want to shoot a larger scale match with Vu or something) Let's face it, no one goes to a match to be DFL.

There is no "perfect design" to a shooting competition. Look at ALL the kinds of matches across the country. Can you imagine what kind of hell would break loose on this sight of someone said, "What? No longer for black powder? That was the original long range rifle. No single shot Sharpes division?"

We are not looking for perfect, just as fair as we can make it, live within the rules, and go shoot.

As for Pro shooters, they are not likely to come to my town to kick my butt in my own match. Not worried about them.

Add for coaching: how do we learn? I like to help others learn to shoot better. We are all learners at some point. Lots of people have helped me over the years. Some really REALLY good pros talked to me and helped me out. I would like to think that the pros we have in this sport are not all @ssholes. I would think their sponsor would infect to that kind of attitude in their representatives. Just my. 02. Take it out leave it.

 

[hypertex]

The local range has been after me to start a shoot. I have some ideas for a course of fire: the Match in a box would be a great asset.

 

[GONE BAD]

Well, I guess there is one solution. One rule, .308 only. All problems solved.

 

[Lowlight]

[MENTION=85541]GONE BAD[/MENTION]

thanks for the advice, I know it must be tough to get away from the Nuclear Plant and offer such a stellar suggestion.

 

[fargo007]

I'm paying attention to this.

I think prize tables need to be an independent function of the match organization itself. Frequently sponsors mandate how a prize is to be awarded. It's their money and that has to be respected. Don't shoot that match if you don't like how they are doing it, but it may not be entirely the MD's decision.

I think the speed class is well thought out, and I also like a gas gun class but agree that it has to be scored as a seasonal component, not a mixed bag. This opens things up to a "working gun" rather than a "race gun" for competitive purposes. Honestly I'd personally rather shoot a .223 AR all year in matches under 700Y.

Most guys starting off went out and had a .308 rifle built, or bought one off the shelf and stuck it in a chassis of some kind. Under this system they are shown that they have a place in this; (their skills aside). At least they are shown it's not a gear race.

New shooters are absolutely the key here. It should be focused on being inclusive and fair, regardless of anyone's super-ninja status. Once you lose credibility, you are finished. There's a fixed community of people interested in this, and it's not a poor man's game. If it doesn't increase, we're finished, all of us.

Coach those new shooters! They came to have fun, and learning something new is always worth the price of the match. You do a positive service to the match and the sport by helping newer shooters.

Keep the discussion going. It's like a hornet's nest on fire but hey - it's warm and bright...

v/r

--Fargo007

 

[GONE BAD]

Lowlight, I'll just set in the back of the class and watch. Unless you'd like me to move to the front?

 

[pyrofx]

The local range has been after me to start a shoot. I have some ideas for a course of fire: the Match in a box would be a great asset.

Bruno , LETS DO IT !!!

 

[nicko]

As some what of a new competitive shooter brought to this sport by our local crew azprc and all brads work to make that happen.and occasionally with az lrprs when i get time to make it down to phx i saw a opportunity to shoot with some other guys in the prs this year and not only has our local match got me started in this sport being apart of the prs has made me ten times the shooter i was 2 years ago i have shot in 4 prs matches this year absolutely dive bombing the first two and finishing in the top 20 in the second two. as far as the guys who always finish first they all have well deserved wins. and are finishing there for one reason THERE THE BEST. and any given day any one who puts the time into shooting has the ability to compete at any level look at how many 2013 shooters went from semi pro to top 50 this year. i think the prs is
fair and consistent. and has brought plenty of new shooters to the sport as of my self i will defiantly be on the prs for the 2014 series thanks rich and the rest of the committee for doing a great job at keeping this going...i had a blast for 2013 and look forward to shooting in the finale ....

 

[NorCal Vu]

On the coaching: we went away from it for a while, but will be going back to it in 2014 for local monthly events for newer competitors hitting 50% or less. We also have them go last on all the stages behind the more experience shooters so that they can learn how to tackle a stage, or prop, barricade, ect.

As for the speed: honor system works fine at local events, and even high level events. Now with the magnetospeed we can randomly check anyone instantly after a stage with ammo left in their magazine.

The only calibers we see getting close are 6mm

6.5s shooting 139gn and 140gn bullets do not get close to that limit, unless its the 6.5SAUM

 

[Lowlight]

Vu
That is a good way to do it, to let the new shooters observe. The coaching helps and adds to the atmosphere that is inviting to new shooters.

To recap where we are...

Limited any caliber under 2800fps
Open any caliber over 2850fps

Because people don't seem to get it, and I believe at the local level it's a bit more difficult, I will drop the Training numbers. So there will be no incentive for people to seek instruction, regardless. Sad, but I the majority will see it as a negative instead of seeing the potential it brings. We always bitch people show up thinking they know, and then fall flat, so why training would be such a touchy subject is a bit of a mystery for me. I think promoting training is a positive step in the right direction. Quells a lot of myths people read on the internet. So the idea was to add this incentive, even a small one like .25 points per 4 hours. But I think the push back against it is too strong.

The Range / Match Offset is moving forward, as well we are looking at the different point options. Because this is precision rifle, and shooting at 200 yards is not the same as shooting at 800 yards, we have to rate the course. There are a lot of great examples we are looking at. we have a great formula that is being worked out, Range + Unique targets = score. This is just of the match offset, but keep the numbers close and based on the stages and course of fire. Not just distance. So if you are using a shorter range but mixing up the unique target factor, you actually score higher than just shooting 5 shots at 600 yards. We are simplifying it now, and also working on the flat rate scoring similar to the BR example. I think this is an important fact. This will bet the next focus.

We are not gonna force any Match Director to change their rules, and will only offer best practice guidelines to help people move towards a more consistent system across the different matches. As I noted, if you use a smaller point system vs a larger one, the way it is working or some now change the points you score. We want to avoid this. Because every single Precision Rifle match is unique in the Course of Fire, and distances shot, you want people from different areas to come away with a competing score, and not being bumped up because of how the individual match scored itself. Also we don't want to penalize matches that have less people to big degree. I do feel more competitors ups the ante and it should be rewarded a bit for beating out 75 competitors vs 45 but we don't; want it that big a swing.

A gas gun division is good, I like that, but really you have to commit to in some way. Either via the Regional Matches, then on the National, or seasonal. I think at the local level you can alternate but if you want to be in the Gas Gun Division you have to shoot it in a regional match + a National at a minimum.

Finally I think people like the idea of the Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert qualification. Where you can shoot a single stage a couple times a year to gauge yourself. Everyone can do this as we'll make it close enough not to hurt ranges with less distance available. Then we'll add in that winning a match or being in the Top 3 twice moves you up to the next level to prevent sandbagging.

 

[Rich Emmons]

PRS 2014 announcments

This isn't about an advertisement for the PRS...

 

[Lowlight]

You might want to see how things work out with zero advertisements. As i noted if i am gonna be competing against you with or without doing something like the TRL why in the hell would I let you or any other "PRS Match" advertise on here for free ?

That is something to consider, I am sure Facebook will get you plenty of seats filled.

 

[Unknown]

I'm not sure how to proceed at this point. There is a great deal I like about this idea, nothing to which I have any strong objection, and only a little that I don't think I completly understand.

What information can I provide that would be most helpful at this point?

 

[Lowlight]

it really need to be worked out on the point system side of things so smaller matches are not unduly effected or if they use a 100 point system vs a 1 point system it doesn't change the value.

If you have a max of 300 points vs a max of 2400 points that changes things up a lot. So a flat rate value with a COF offset is needed.

We aren't shooting inside a 25 yard pistol bay, so we need to adjust how we recognize the differences

 

[NorCal Vu]

Competition breeds excellence.

Another thing to keep in mind from both sides of the house here. TRL or PRS are both GUEST of our ranges and matches. It is the hard work of the MDs, ROs, and range staff that put the rubber to the road to make these events happen. If there is more drama than it is worth for these folks, they will say fuck it all and not host these type of events.

Frank if you decide to charge for PRS Match advertisement, let me know as I have already committed to hosting one for 2014 (gotta keep my word). I plan on posting info here as I have in the past 7 years and will pay whatever dues you feel is proper to do so.

Vu

 

[Lowlight]

Vu,

Noted, maybe I need to repeat:

Maybe I should write an objective:

Preserve the Creative Independence of the individual Match Director

My idea is to actually support the matches and not just take away. Help promote, help staff if needed, and if asked, assist in providing resources, especially for new Match Directors who do not have the experience like some venues have. I know I requested support from the PRS and was left holding my ass. Once it was determined my scores would be provided, It was like the match didn't exist, well except the personally attacks on how I handed out the prizes. Then I was front and center in their minds.

People read all the time about, "what a great match Vu put on" well I am sure there are a lot of people have never been there want to know what you did to execute such a successful event (aside from the obvious hard work) well that has value to an up and coming match director to have a resource available that is willing to help and not just stick their hand out. I don't say this from the side lines but from first hand experience. Then to turn around and be told if you are not gonna give us the scores, we're gonna replace you by having a match the same week in the same location. With the caveat the warning was their idea of being a gentleman ... How is that for drama LOL

 

[NorCal Vu]

In the process of popping more popcorn. LOL.

I agree and fully support MDs working together to fine tune their events. I have worked a lot with the clubs in Arizona, Las Vegas, Jacob and Lisa @ Rifles Only, and many other MDs to help me fine tune things over the years.

A resource that helps MDs and local clubs grow and improve their events is great thing for the sport.

 

[Lowlight]

So I thought was a great idea as a range offset, or to score the course of fire.

You'd take the stage individual and assign it a range and unique target engagement.

So if you had a stage that was 800 yards with 5 shots all at 800 you'd have

800/100 + 1 = 9

But if you had a stage that was 5 targets at different distances it would be the average range plus the number of unique target distances.

(avg) 500/100 + 5 = 10

So it balances out and gives value for the difficulty of having to transition to different targets.

 

[Lowlight]

I like Popcorn Vu,

And I know you have been a big support of other people and matches, unfortunately the same can't be said for everyone.

 

[NorCal Vu]

So I thought was a great idea as a range offset, or to score the course of fire.

You'd take the stage individual and assign it a range and unique target engagement.

So if you had a stage that was 800 yards with 5 shots all at 800 you'd have

800/100 + 1 = 9

But if you had a stage that was 5 targets at different distances it would be the average range plus the number of unique target distances.

(avg) 500/100 + 5 = 10

So it balances out and gives value for the difficulty of having to transition to different targets.

Just because I am Asian, it does not mean I am great with math......

 

[Lowlight]

Can you figure average range of the entire match + round count / 100 = ?

I honestly think it is necessary to have a match offset as not all matches are created equal.

 

[Lowlight]

On a side note... I noticed the PRS standings...if I am reading it right, the Top 48 or so are all PROs... so much for recognizing the up and coming shooter.

Nascar Shirts matter...

 

[D Miller]

You might want to see how things work out with zero advertisements. As i noted if i am gonna be competing against you with or without doing something like the TRL why in the hell would I let you or any other "PRS Match" advertise on here for free ?

That is something to consider, I am sure Facebook will get you plenty of seats filled.

This is the most damaging idea to the shooting community I have heard yet! I understand The Hide, training and TRL is your business and needs to make money, but this would harm the MDs and the community NOT the PRS. I truly hope to see TRL create and support more matches across the county like you are talking about a few posts up.



I understand your desire to balance out the scoring but try to keep it simple so we don't need a mathematics major just to score things. Scoring can be the next most difficult thing for match volunteers to do behind spotting. I can see many mistakes stemming from too complex of a variable points system. Also it will slow down scoring at the end of a match.

Is there any way you could make available a website or down loadable software for scoring? That would be a great help to MDs and the poor score keepers at matches



Hahahaha!! Vu, we had a similar comment made here in LV about math.