AutoTrickler V4

rmfield

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I think too slow for such big grains. When you are lucky you are dropping .06 grains. When you are not so lucky you are dropping clumps of .06 grains.
 

357Max

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    @John Glidewell beat me to it.

    Your small tube flow rate is way to low. Shim the back with small allen keys or something to get .18 -.23.
    The problem I ran into was the large flow rate will go to .35++ when you get the small flow rate in that range. The bigger the kernals the bigger the split in flow rate. It may start overthrowing via large tube.
     
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    John Glidewell

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    Powder Calibration 14  Start the calibration process.  Place the empty cup and re-zero the scale.  Press Calibrate in the app to start the process.  After the tubes are primed, the flow rate stabilizes, and the natural flow rates of both tubes at a constant speed will be measured. This takes about 1 minute.  The calibrated flow rates are saved in the AutoTrickler electronics even if you disconnect power to the scale.  Verify the measured flow rate is within range.  Press Settings and observe the small tube calibrated flow rate.  The value should be within 0.10 to 0.20 GN/s.  If the value is too high or low:  See page 17.  Recalibrate after:  Changing powders  Adjusting the level of the scale  Adjusting the tilt angle of the housing  Changing anything which could affect the natural flow rate.

     

    John Glidewell

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    Yeah, I have read about doing this in this thread, and that Adam discourages it.
    Honestly for the volume of 50 BMG I load, I'll just use the uniflow and a hand trickler next time. Not worth futzing with it for small volume cartridge.
    Just disappointing that I find myself here. One would have thought that some proper beta-testing would have easily identified this problem, especially since the inability of the hopper on the V3 to handle N570 seems to have been part of the reason behind the V4.
    In good news, it drips RL15 like a champ. :)
    Where did Adam discourage it? I think that is bad info. It is the user manual and Adam even said you can use the leveling feet on the scale to add or remove some tilt. The shims are really nice. I will try setting up for N570 wiht a large shim and see if it runs. I know it was tested and required some added tilt to get it to flow properly.
     

    secondofangle2

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    so is Adam officially; recommending shimming now? I thought I recalled him saying NOT to do that last a year ago
     

    John Glidewell

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    He never said that to my knowledge. This might be getting mixed up in the reasoning for removing the angle set screws on the original V4s. Some folks have said you can add that if you know what you are doing and Adam discourage that. But not shimming.
     

    secondofangle2

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    I must have read this wrong; I thought in the beginning he was discouraging shims but at least in this thread he's accepting that they're necessary
     

    secondofangle2

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    Thanks guys, when I use RL50 next time, I'll try shims and see if that messes up the large tube or not
     

    357Max

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    It’s not just flow rate of the small tube since that is averaged over time. It’s how smooth the flow is from the small tube. I watch this during calibration. The scale should count up during the small tube calibration cycle in a smooth fashion on both high speed and low. If the flow is inconsistent you will have problems.

    The shimming is needed for the small tube, the problem is that it also increases flow on large tube that doesn't need it. It’s a balancing act. You may need to slow the large tube once you get the small tube flowing smoothly between.18-.23

    To illustrate my point & the main design issue IMO with the V4 here are 2 settings captures. Disregard the settings and just look at the split in flow rate large tube to small. The first is with Lever
    This was giving me consistent sub 6second drops and no overflows.
    D05E0B08-26F7-4F5F-BD21-E603F3E4D06A.png

    Now look at H4350. The large tube flow went through the roof in order to get decent flow from the small tube.
    57E40CB7-471F-41D6-8FA1-FE974D3FAE6B.png

    Here is where I landed Setting wise to work across a pretty broad range of powders (fine ball - N555). These settings are for my machine only because I made a new small tube that is Acme threaded.
    The split is much better now. I have plans to make the small tube elevation adjustable but it’s on the back burner till Thanksgiving.

    E7566F81-7107-4403-8D0B-91C8E749A7D2.png
     
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    John Glidewell

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    Thanks guys, when I use RL50 next time, I'll try shims and see if that messes up the large tube or not
    Remember. Once you get the small tube flow around .20 you will have to play with speeds. For example: I run RL15.5 and VV N555. One requires shim #1, the other requires shim #3. They both run with large tube speed at 5 but the small tube speed is 5 and 7. They both throw dead nuts 8 to 10 seconds. It took some time playing with numbers but once you have it, write it down. I put that data in the load book for the rifle. Every powder is different but don't be afraid to play with tilt and speed. Once you spend time with it, it becomes more intuitive.
     
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    John Glidewell

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    Really down and dirty test. Ran the biggest #5 shim and calibrated with N570. Set to throw 90 grains and it would over throw by a single kernel. 90 to 90.08 but the flow rate is a bit high. If I went to #4 shim and adjusted speed it would be fine. Took less than 5 min.

    Screenshot_20220907-172135_AutoTrickler.jpg
     

    secondofangle2

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    OK, I put a .010" cardstock shim which took the small tube flow rate up to .15. Still had 2/10 overthrows (one greater than .1 grains) and 3/11 (I intended to just measure 10 throws but put the cup back on and it overthrew on #11.

    So we're still at about a 25% overthrow rate (remember the slogan "To the kernel in 10 seconds"? it's still on the autotrickler.com website) and the throws are still taking about 25 seconds.

    This is what we call "overpromise and underdeliver" (even with a hillbilly engineered cardstock "shim") and I think this is what has people frustrated with this version.

    I'm open to any other suggestions of other things I can do. The small tube just cannot handle large extruded powders. The machine was designed around ball powders and H4350, I'm guessing. PRS stuff.
     

    John Glidewell

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    For the big stuff try closer to .2 or .23 for small tube flow rate, so shim a little more. Set your transition weight to 2.0 grains. Set large tube speed to 4 and the small tube speed to 6. This is just a start point. To get to added features hit settings then press and hold on close. The advanced features will open where you can set transition weight and speeds.
     

    Alabama556

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    I had the opposite problem. My flow rate for the small tube was at .35 and I was getting overthrows with R23, R26, and H4831SC.

    I bought some cheap 1/16 plastic bumper pads from Amazon that are for glass table tops and stuck them to the front legs. I then tilted the scale up in the front as far as it would go, took off the tip I had purchased, and calibrated it. The level bubble is now in front of the center dot but still centered in the window.( level left to right but sitting higher in the front)

    I had near perfect results with R23, R26, and H4831SC after I installed the pads.

    I played with the transition weight and speeds and I am getting quick throws. I did not time it but I loaded up 20 243 ackley rounds to fireform the cases in quick order.

    I love the V4. It works fine for me and it is so much quicker than my old RCBS charge master.

    I took all the aftermarket parts off of my scale and now just use the bumper pads on the front legs.
     

    CK1.0

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    So, with the V4, what's the average time for a drop of Varget (taking overthows into account)?

    I figured out I can manually drop a charge of Varget to the kernel (+/- 0.02gr) in 20 seconds on average. This is using caveman tools: a Lyman Brass Smith powder measure, their Brass Smith trickler, combined with a good, fast and precise scale (Ohaus SPX123, 0.001g/0.02gr resolution).

    Yes, dropping them manually is tedious and annoying, but it's not really slow, just semi-painful if loading more than 100 at a time.

    I'm hoping for "half as annoying" more so than "half the time" with the V4 lol...
     

    NodakBarbarian

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    So, with the V4, what's the average time for a drop of Varget (taking overthows into account)?

    I figured out I can manually drop a charge of Varget to the kernel (+/- 0.02gr) in 20 seconds on average. This is using caveman tools: a Lyman Brass Smith powder measure, their Brass Smith trickler, combined with a good, fast and precise scale (Ohaus SPX123, 0.001g/0.02gr resolution).

    Yes, dropping them manually is tedious and annoying, but it's not really slow, just semi-painful if loading more than 100 at a time.

    I'm hoping for "half as annoying" more so than "half the time" with the V4 lol...
    10-12 seconds for me. I struggle to seat the bullets as fast as the Autotrickler throws charges.
     
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    S3th

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    I believe the disparities from person to person are due to the stacking of variances (tilt degree, balance of scale, speed setting, etc). Thus when a calibration is ran, two people, both with H4350 will have different flow amounts, etc. While I didn't really experience much of an issue with the V4 I have decided to sell it and order a SuperTrickler. This decision was mostly driven by wanting to move away from an app API that could be removed from the app store at any point in time.
     

    max1840

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    I believe the disparities from person to person are due to the stacking of variances (tilt degree, balance of scale, speed setting, etc). Thus when a calibration is ran, two people, both with H4350 will have different flow amounts, etc. While I didn't really experience much of an issue with the V4 I have decided to sell it and order a SuperTrickler. This decision was mostly driven by wanting to move away from an app API that could be removed from the app store at any point in time.
    I'm sure the app can be put on a website when things take a harder left.
     

    S3th

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    iphone user also. Didn't realize iphone apps can only be downloaded from the app store. Hopefully necessity is still a mother
    I guess worst case scenario the app becomes a download to be used on a laptop w/ bluetooth or something. Maybe even a website API.
     

    StaveyIL

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    Not sure if this would matter ,in terms of running from a app. I didn’t want an app on my phone running my powder scale. I use the Autotrickler tablet. Came loaded with Autotrickler and shot marker programs. Sits rite next to the ATV4 on a tablet stand. Works great.
     

    1bamashooter

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    Got my V4 on Thursday set it up today and tried Varget, RL 15.5, H4350, 7828ssc, RL26, and H1000. I didn't adjust anything but speed on all of the listed powders and my over/under throws were a kernel or two on all. I lost my V3 when my house burned down and the V4 replaced it. I don't see how some of you are having the issues with the V4 that are happening also none of my shooting buddies are having the trouble some of you claim to be having either. Maybe down the road I'll have problems but I doubt it anyway I'm happy and don't let some of you new to autotrickler let these folks talk you out of getting one.
     

    dttheliman

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    Thanks guys, when I use RL50 next time, I'll try shims and see if that messes up the large tube or not
    Ok the RL50 struggle is real - you there can shim the crap out of it even high enough to stop the small tube dispensing it will frustrate you, I got it down over 2 days with some cussing and some experiments with restricting flow in the big tube , still experimenting, but I’m throwing 137 gr every time in approximately 16 seconds, if I had control ie manual adjustments on the calibration speeds , it would be easier , takes an additional 30 seconds for me to change from a “ normal “ powder to RL50 and I’m golden, if anyone is interested in me writing up the workaround, I’ll get it wrapped up on Monday or so
     

    John Glidewell

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    Ok the RL50 struggle is real - you there can shim the crap out of it even high enough to stop the small tube dispensing
    That sounds like you are shiming the wrong direction. You shim from back, tilting it forward so the flow rate increases.

    And you can access the individual ideal speed controls. Press and hold close and the advanced settings menu opens.
     

    dttheliman

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    That sounds like you are shiming the wrong direction. You shim from back, tilting it forward so the flow rate increases.

    And you can access the individual ideal speed controls. Press and hold close and the advanced settings menu opens.
    Lol no not with RL50 it dumps tons , even with significant shimming of the front , you need to slow the volume not increase it
     
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    dttheliman

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    Lol no not with RL50 it dumps tons , even with significant shimming of the front , you need to slow the volume not increase it
    @John Glidewell , I must be missing something here, can you share your process while using RL50 - I would be very interested in understanding how you got it to calibrate, by shimming the rear of the scale ?
     

    John Glidewell

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    You don't shim the scale. Shim the V4 from the rear single pad on the back. It is in the instructions. I shared settings for N570 which was just a quick test and was working well with minimal tuning. I know I can get it to run really good. I do not have time to go through all this right now match preps for next wkend.
     

    dttheliman

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    You don't shim the scale. Shim the V4 from the rear single pad on the back. It is in the instructions. I shared settings for N570 which was just a quick test and was working well with minimal tuning. I know I can get it to run really good. I do not have time to go through all this right now match preps for next wkend.
    Shimming the v4 is what I’m talking about - n570 is not RL50 , it seems similar in powder grain size to 8133 - witch I have zero issue running with the v4, when you have time I would like to continue this conversation
     

    John Glidewell

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    It's the same no mater the powder. Shim and calibrate until small tube flow is .2 to .23 the go into advanced settings and adjust large and small tube speeds and set your transition weight at 2 grains or higher. Keep playing with those settings until you can get an 8 to 10 second throw that is accurate. Note your settings and shims for each powder.
     

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    dttheliman

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    It's the same no mater the powder. Shim and calibrate until small tube flow is .2 to .23 the go into advanced settings and adjust large and small tube speeds and set your transition weight at 2 grains or higher. Keep playing with those settings until you can get an 8 to 10 second throw that is accurate. Note your settings and shims for each powder.
    Ok when you get to RL50 please report back, and anyone else successfully using RL50 please chime in
     

    Gilly

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    Really down and dirty test. Ran the biggest #5 shim and calibrated with N570. Set to throw 90 grains and it would over throw by a single kernel. 90 to 90.08 but the flow rate is a bit high. If I went to #4 shim and adjusted speed it would be fine. Took less than 5 min.

    View attachment 7951486

    I just want to know how the hell you guys see all these settings? My advanced settings only have about half of those slider bars. V4 and my app is up to date.
     

    secondofangle2

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    Underpromise and over delivered on one thing for sure: plug and play - and play, and play around some more, and play around more and more and more. The playing around to get the AT4 working is endless fun!
     

    CUBUFF89

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    It's the same no mater the powder. Shim and calibrate until small tube flow is .2 to .23 the go into advanced settings and adjust large and small tube speeds and set your transition weight at 2 grains or higher. Keep playing with those settings until you can get an 8 to 10 second throw that is accurate. Note your settings and shims for each powder.
    Would you please share where you found the shim kit? I read the entire thread pretty carefully and didn't see any specific references to where these are sourced. I'd like something better than card stock or folded painters tape.

    Thanks!
     

    John Glidewell

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    @Drhorsepower

    He prints them. Think it was $15 shipped.

     
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    jpjulian

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    I ordered an Autotrickler V4 a few days ago. Was getting too many niggling issues with a Chargemaster 1500.
     

    Oryx

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    I've been on the fence with upgrading my V3 to a V4 for a while now, but I have heard a lot lately about people upgrading the V3 to the use the Ingenuity Precision trickling system paired with the V3. Any one have any experience with the IP trickler that also upgraded from 3-4? Thoughts on which would be the best system?
     

    NiteQwill

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    I've been on the fence with upgrading my V3 to a V4 for a while now, but I have heard a lot lately about people upgrading the V3 to the use the Ingenuity Precision trickling system paired with the V3. Any one have any experience with the IP trickler that also upgraded from 3-4? Thoughts on which would be the best system?

    IP wins
     

    Andrew863

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    I've been on the fence with upgrading my V3 to a V4 for a while now, but I have heard a lot lately about people upgrading the V3 to the use the Ingenuity Precision trickling system paired with the V3. Any one have any experience with the IP trickler that also upgraded from 3-4? Thoughts on which would be the best system?
    I have been back and forth on the same. I have a v2 with some upgrades and the Bluetooth. I have been thinking about getting the IP. I think I have made my mind up to go ahead and buy the v4 bc I do like that it takes less space, but give it a try if I don't like it sell it and get me a IP. From what I can tell the v4 will never be as accurate as the IP but if it's +- .02 95% of the time I can live with that and save the money. The IP is just a better design how it separates the kernels. The super trickler ,v3 or ,v4 will never be as accurate.
     

    StaveyIL

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    As I’ve said before.The V4 drops 4350 to the grain literally as fast as I can seat a bullet. It’s also extremely easy and fast to empty or switch powders. Not to mention the ability to change drop weights/powders quickly on the fly . For my application I prefer the V4. The last thing I want is 1 more thing on the bench that I need to remove powder from. This was the main reason I chose the v4. All in 1 precise and fast. I’m completely happy with my purchase. Honestly the IP trickler and a Lee powder spoon would probably beat them all in terms of speed , it’s also the cheapest route.
     

    PatMiles

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    My V4 throws powder almost flawlessly. I calibrate a couple of times when changing powder.
    NO complaints whatsoever.
     

    Jefe's Dope

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    Just a note to those awaiting arrival of their V4. Do NOT forget to put the plastic covers in place before you try and open the hopper.:rolleyes:

    And initial impression is very good. It's extremely fast and accurate. Still toying with it and the settings to optimize throw times for my powder and load weight but it kicks the Chargemaster in the balls for time. Although initial comparison shows the Chargemaster's scale to be more accurate than expected.