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Best solutions for clip-on thermal on a traditional stock?

Rancid Coolaid

Rancid Coolaid

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
    • Aug 10, 2007
    1,686
    837
    Houston, TX.
    Setup is a R700 300WM in a McMillan HTG running a ZCO 4-20 in a Spurh mount. I want to put a Steiner C35 in front of the day optic, but haven't done this particular thing before.

    If the best solution is "dump the McMillan, go to a chassis" then it is what it is; however, I'd like an intermediate option.

    I have seen Spurh's side rail abomination-looking thing, but have concerns with flex and just general banging that second pecker on things.

    Any help?
     
    Not sure about the c35 but with some clip-ons you can get an attachment that will clamp onto the bell of your scope. This seems to be pretty standard in Europe.
     
    Badger efr mount if the stock is thick enough
     
    That might be the winner, if I can find someone that does the milling... And can find the badger hardware.

    I appreciate the link, I had not seen that thread.
     
    Matt at Sawtooth Rifles
    Greg at bugholes I am pretty sure will both do the work.

    Chad at lri has his own version not sure if he's still making those also an option
     
    Way less than the cost of a chassis and probably be a pretty quick turn around. @LongRifles Inc. is your best bet.

    www.longriflesinc.com

    LRI UL Varminter Optic Mount

    Our new Ultra Light and Standard (UL&STD) EFR mounts for heavy night vision rigs and light Varmint hunting are built for two very different applications. We can now cater to both heavy-hitting rigs and the much narrower/lighter gun hunting rifles that are becoming ever more popular for pigs and...
    www.longriflesinc.com


    www.snipershide.com

    Night Vision - LRI's New UL Varminter optic mount for rifle stocks.

    I try to avoid bringing a trinket to market solely for the purpose of complicating someones purchasing decision. Rarely am I guilty of an original thought, so often the stuff I do is an attempt to improve upon an existing design. The Badger EFR mount does a number of things very well. The...
    www.snipershide.com www.snipershide.com
     
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    Badger is one option. The other is to commission a machinist to build you a long one-piece scope rail and use that. The last option is the Spuhr NV mount.

    So far, I'm happiest with this
     

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    You can use the Burris Clip on Objective scope mounts on the C35, but with the weight of the unit I don't reccomend it.
     
    Rancid Coolaid said:
    Setup is a R700 300WM in a McMillan HTG running a ZCO 4-20 in a Spurh mount. I want to put a Steiner C35 in front of the day optic, but haven't done this particular thing before.

    If the best solution is "dump the McMillan, go to a chassis" then it is what it is; however, I'd like an intermediate option.

    I have seen Spurh's side rail abomination-looking thing, but have concerns with flex and just general banging that second pecker on things.

    Any help?
    Click to expand...
    The C35 is not going to be a good thermal for a based magnification of 4x optical. You need something with a 6⁰ FOV or lower for something with that high base magnification. This puts you at military long range clip ons that require pic rail mounts.
     
    jstokes1 said:
    The C35 is not going to be a good thermal for a based magnification of 4x optical. You need something with a 6⁰ FOV or lower for something with that high base magnification. This puts you at military long range clip ons that require pic rail mounts.
    Click to expand...

    He will sacrifice some FOV of the thermal, but it will work.

    ILya
     
    Other option is a 2.5-10 night force on an AR10. I give up some KE but get a prettier picture?

    There will be some trial-n-error to this… sounds like.

    And have conventional NODs and a thermal scanner backing this up…
     
    Rancid Coolaid said:
    Other option is a 2.5-10 night force on an AR10. I give up some KE but get a prettier picture?

    There will be some trial-n-error to this… sounds like.

    And have conventional NODs and a thermal scanner backing this up…
    Click to expand...

    To me, commercial clip-ons are at their best when paired with an LPVO and left that way. Most commercial thermal clip-ons have perfect FOV matching between 1.5x and 3x of dayscopes, depending on the design.

    That's why I used the C35 mostly with the P4Xi 1-4x24 and Toric 1-8x24.

    ILya
     
    I have used a C35 behind a P4Xi 4-16 and enjoyed it. Your C35 should be arriving any day and wait until you get hands on time before going and buying another scope.
     
    Rancid Coolaid said:
    Always helpful, thanks for the recommendations.

    And you suck, because now I need a new scope too.

    Warmest regards,
    Click to expand...

    You know that posting here will cost you money.
    When you decide you need a new scope, give me a holler. I'll be clearing out some stuff that is sitting here collecting dust fairly soon. There may be a hunting appropriate LPVO or two in there.
    I might even hand deliver it.

    ILya
     
    jstokes1 said:
    It will work of course, but you'll be majorly cutting into image resolution..not just FOV. As you stated below, and LPVO is especially needed for this optic.
    Click to expand...

    That's not quite accurate. The angular resolution stays the same. You are just not seeing the entirety of the thermal image, only the center of it. Interestingly enough, I did a livestream on that last week.

    ILya
     
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    koshkin said:
    You know that posting here will cost you money.
    When you decide you need a new scope, give me a holler. I'll be clearing out some stuff that is sitting here collecting dust fairly soon. There may be a hunting appropriate LPVO or two in there.
    I might even hand deliver it.

    ILya
    Click to expand...
    I might take you up on that... the LPVO part, the "hand deliver" part is just weird.

    Hebrew, I am looking forward to it. Range report to follow.
     
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    PRI long scope base on REM700 SA ...

    40707888743_819935b111_h.jpg

    48143076556_a411012b3b_h.jpg


    ==
    Custom long scope base from Ferrel Manufacturing (in MO) on M99.

    49280175046_ac85bacd61_h.jpg

    ==
    Long scope bases have tradeoffs with saddle mounts.
    Long scope bases require periodic retightening of the scope base screws due to oscillatory forces which shake them loose.
    Saddle mounts have difficultly (for me) supporting high variance in day scope lengths in combination with high variance in clipon length, as well as not necessarily being aligned in the same plane (or height).
    Life is full of trade-offs. I don't have problems with the long scope bases. I do check and retighten them at least once a year. I shoot 2k to 3k rounds per bolt gun per year.
     
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    The Pulsar Krypton is an option that will let you attach directly to your scope. I do not own one, but did some research before deciding to go with the Iray RH25 instead since I had a rail on my rifle to utilize.
     
    GreenMushroom said:
    Not sure about the c35 but with some clip-ons you can get an attachment that will clamp onto the bell of your scope. This seems to be pretty standard in Europe.
    Click to expand...
    Would shy away from loading the scope objective bell....want free float barrels AND scopes......just a really old engineer guy's pondering.
     
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    Quick update, and musings, and stuff from Koshkin too:

    This thing is a brick, almost literally. It is blocky and heavy. And no, I would not mount this thing on the bell of any scope, and I have some very beefy scopes.

    Image quality is great, menu system is much much better than the Bering menu (of which I am accustomed.) Wifi integration was quick and easy and stable, battery life is still being determined.

    And here is where it gets a bit tricky. As Koshkin pointed out, the perfect melding of day optic and thermal happens (and is highly subjective) in the <2 but >1 region of zoom range. Ideally, I need it in front of a good 1.5-8 or so optic, that has good low light performance. Yes, thermal mitigates some low light deficiencies, but for transition hunting at the witching hour, it'd be nice to ring some daylight out of the setup before the thermal went on.

    I am playing with the C35 in front of a few optics, a 1.5-something Vortex, and my go-to optic of a TT 3-15M, an Elcan DR1X/4X, a 1-6 Gen2 razor, and a few others - and am still looking for the one that really convinces me to stay that course.

    That said, the image quality through everything is awesome, at least to someone not incredibly well versed in civilian thermal imaging.
     
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    Rancid Coolaid said:
    Quick update, and musings, and stuff from Koshkin too:

    This thing is a brick, almost literally. It is blocky and heavy. And no, I would not mount this thing on the bell of any scope, and I have some very beefy scopes.

    Image quality is great, menu system is much much better than the Bering menu (of which I am accustomed.) Wifi integration was quick and easy and stable, battery life is still being determined.

    And here is where it gets a bit tricky. As Koshkin pointed out, the perfect melding of day optic and thermal happens (and is highly subjective) in the <2 but >1 region of zoom range. Ideally, I need it in front of a good 1.5-8 or so optic, that has good low light performance. Yes, thermal mitigates some low light deficiencies, but for transition hunting at the witching hour, it'd be nice to ring some daylight out of the setup before the thermal went on.

    I am playing with the C35 in front of a few optics, a 1.5-something Vortex, and my go-to optic of a TT 3-15M, an Elcan DR1X/4X, a 1-6 Gen2 razor, and a few others - and am still looking for the one that really convinces me to stay that course.

    That said, the image quality through everything is awesome, at least to someone not incredibly well versed in civilian thermal imaging.
    Click to expand...

    I am debating getting a 1.5-9x45 Delta Titanium to use behind thermals. They have a Gen2 version, I think. I liked the Gen1, but it was a little on the heavy/buly side. The 2D reticle was very good in low light though and overall low light performance was really impressive for the money.

    The magnification range is just right for general purpose hunting and for setting up with a clip-on.

    ILya
     
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    I talked to Delta and the 1.5-9x45 has indeed been updated in late 2020, so I'll get my hands on it toward the end of the year when I do another round of looking at a couple of thermals. It is still on the heavy side at around 24 ounces, but it has nice fiber illumination and wider apparent FOV thanks to an updated eyepiece. It will be interesting to see how it works with different clip-ons. Having a large objective is a detriment when using it with a thermal during the day, unless you shield whichever part of the objective lens is not looking through the thermal. When it is dark, it does not really make a difference. That is one of the reasons LPVOs do so well with clip-ons even during the day. However, a large objective really helps in low light when you do not have a thermal hooked up. It will be interesting to play with it.

    I want to go on a hog hunt in December, so that will be a good oportunity.

    ILya
     
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    A quick update to the thread:

    Mounting a clip-on thermal in front of a day optic on a conventionally stocked rifle is a huge pain in the ass. Getting the height right is not an easy prospect, and significant deviations from centerline alignment cause image shifts that will require tracking 2 very dissimilar zeros.

    On an AR, easy; on something without a full rail, making minor adjustments in height of day scope or thermal is not at all easy.

    All that said, the advantages of the clip-on are still awesome compared to double-rifling all my efforts.

    Once the hunting season is behind me, my HTG will be going somewhere for a Badger rail up front, if I can find the parts and someone I trust to do the work...
     
    Another quick update to the very few that care.
    Lots of hours on the thermal now, lots of different weapons configurations tried, some worked, some not so much. I do like that the C35 has 3 internal image position settings, meaning 3 unique rifle zeroed settings.

    First, conventional tactical/hunting scopes are not the best match. My C35 has spent the most time behind a TT315 and Hensoldt 3-12. I ended up dropping the conventional stock thing (no good quick-n-easy fixes) and went with a Whiskey3-tikka with forward mounting platform and a Seekins SP10 with full rail - both worked easily. Neither is 300 winmag, which sucks; both put have enough juice for good effect on target within the limits of the caliber/bullet.

    Just messing around, I threw the thermal behind a Vortex 1.5-8x32 HD LRH and it is perfect - but not illuminated. And I think Vortex discontinued that scope.

    I am still searching for the perfect optic for thermal and daytime use, and really think the new March 1.5-15 is the ticket - but don't have one yet. Koshkin, thoughts on that scope/C35 marriage?
    And, for the record, your advice so far has been spot-on, I appreciate it always!
     
    Rancid Coolaid said:
    Another quick update to the very few that care.
    Lots of hours on the thermal now, lots of different weapons configurations tried, some worked, some not so much. I do like that the C35 has 3 internal image position settings, meaning 3 unique rifle zeroed settings.

    First, conventional tactical/hunting scopes are not the best match. My C35 has spent the most time behind a TT315 and Hensoldt 3-12. I ended up dropping the conventional stock thing (no good quick-n-easy fixes) and went with a Whiskey3-tikka with forward mounting platform and a Seekins SP10 with full rail - both worked easily. Neither is 300 winmag, which sucks; both put have enough juice for good effect on target within the limits of the caliber/bullet.

    Just messing around, I threw the thermal behind a Vortex 1.5-8x32 HD LRH and it is perfect - but not illuminated. And I think Vortex discontinued that scope.

    I am still searching for the perfect optic for thermal and daytime use, and really think the new March 1.5-15 is the ticket - but don't have one yet. Koshkin, thoughts on that scope/C35 marriage?
    And, for the record, your advice so far has been spot-on, I appreciate it always!
    Click to expand...

    Honestly, the 1.5-8x32 Razor HD-LH is damn near perfect behind a thermal clip-on. It is discontinued and I have two of them. Behind a thermal, lack of illumination really has not been an issue. It is also does not hurt that the scope is very light to offset the extra weight of the thermal.

    I just started looking at a couple of scopes that should be good with clip-ons: Delta Titanium HD 1.5-9x45 and Blackhound Emerge 2-12x44. They should be better in low light on their own than the smaller Razor HD-LH and should have enough low end FOV to match clipons well.

    March 1.5-15x42 should be excellent in this role, but I will not get to test it until March/April or so.

    ILya
     
    Rengage said:
    View attachment 8017667

    And you get to use the CS almost as much as vortex users.

    And they had the gall to raise prices
    Click to expand...

    First off... Your shooting at night..... So yea green or white screen only but it's false it's just not TT blue....

    Second that's bs and their service imo is the best of the top their mfgs... Jerry r is the man.

    3rd.... Well yea it's bush league but gbpse?🤣
     
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