Commander of the CVN Roosevelt relieved....

Redmanss

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Silly Navy, still can't get out of their own fucking way.

And projected movements of forward deployed aircraft carriers is not FOUO. That information was in that letter.
 

RyanScott

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I haven’t read the letter. I keep away from anything that might be potentially classified. I’m relying on news reports that said readiness implications were mentioned but not in detail.
 

308pirate

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And projected movements of forward deployed aircraft carriers is not FOUO. That information was in that letter.
You must be wrong. Admiral Scott (who hasn't even read the msg) told everyone is FOUO. I bet he doesn't even know that FOUO isn't a classification level.
 

RyanScott

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That FOUO isn’t a classification is the point of FOUO.

I like how spun up you get about everything. It’s amazing you had a nuke slot in the Navy, both of the people I knew that passed that interview were quite stable.
 
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308pirate

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Technically, it is.
Unless I'm reading DoDM 5200 V2 incorrectly, FOUO is a designation that applies only to unclassified information to control its release to the public. Basically, it's applied to information that isn't subject to or is exempt from FOIA.

Obviously, classified information (C, S, TS, etc) is exempt from FOIA so FOUO doesn't apply to it.

I could be wrong, I often am.
 

E. Bryant

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This is going to be todays "Orange Man Bad" it seems.

Trump is going to get involved....

Lets hope he doesnt fuck it up.
He won't fuck it up any worse. Sure, there will be a series of tweets that include inappropriate capitalization, random quotation marks, and puzzling abbreviations. And sure, the media will take the red meat he dangles and interpret in their uniquely un-American way. But none of this will substantially make matters objectively worse, any more so than a fatal car accident is made worse by someone driving by the crash site in a '77 Monte Carlo while playing ABBA.
 
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Redmanss

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Unless I'm reading DoDM 5200 V2 incorrectly, FOUO is a designation that applies only to unclassified information to control its release to the public. Basically, it's applied to information that isn't subject to or is exempt from FOIA.

Obviously, classified information (C, S, TS, etc) is exempt from FOIA so FOUO doesn't apply to it.

I could be wrong, I often am.
It’s one of those technical gray areas where it is, but it isn’t, but it is...
 
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pmclaine

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He won't fuck it up any worse. Sure, there will be a series of tweets that include inappropriate capitalization, random quotation marks, and puzzling abbreviations. And sure, the media will take the red meat he dangles and interpret in their uniquely un-American way. But none of this will substantially make matters objectively worse, any more so than a fatal car accident is made worse by someone driving by the crash site in a '77 Monte Carlo while playing ABBA.

By fucking it up I would mean over riding the initial decision.

Change the rules going forward and make movements/readiness of nukes something posted ahead of time online fine but if the rules at present were broken than support the initial decsion.
 

308pirate

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That FOUO isn’t a classification is the point of FOUO.

I like how spun up you get about everything. It’s amazing you had a nuke slot in the Navy, both of the people I knew that passed that interview were quite stable.
Ship movement information is classified. Whoever told you it's FOUO doesn't know what he's talking about, and clearly you don't either.
 
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pmclaine

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It’s one of those technical gray areas where it is, but it isn’t, but it is...

It would be unseemly but not unlawful to make public based on the fact its "For Official Use Only".

Kind of a wedge thing that opens the person to pressure.

I think Lonetree started his slide by handing out an FOUO phone book to his Russian KGB swallow than it became "Give us more, you have already broken the rules, so get us something better"
 
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pmclaine

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Ship movement information is classified. Whoever told you it's FOUO doesn't know what he's talking about, and clearly you don't either.

Im also concerned about the "readiness" factor.

I dont think the world needs to know a CVN has a crew not at 100 percent.

Truth be told Id be shocked if at any point in time our peer enemies dont know where all the big targets are.

The physical size of the globe has not changed but the world is much smaller than it was 75 years ago.

I cant imagine today we would experience carrier vs carrier battles the way we did with Japan - launching flights of scout patrols and only making contact as attack groups are at the extreme of their fuel abilities.

Our nuke subs Id say in any peer to peer conflict will be the only survivors.

CVN are great for beating up third world countries but against another nuke country with halfway decent targetting SSBN would seem to be the last ship standing.

Lets see what would be the result if an SSBN Captain sent out a Hotmail account message saying his crew was going sick and he was at Northing/Easting such and such headed to the nearest full service base.
 

308pirate

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Even with all the surveillance available today, ship (or any military unit for that matter) movement information is classified for several very good reasons.

It's extremely unlikely that any country would use a tactical nuke against another nuclear power. That's pretty much suicide.

In a conventional war, it's going to be pretty difficult to actually sink a carrier. A torpedo salvo will do it, but that's no different from any other ship and hasn't changed since WW2. However, carriers aren't as fragile as some seem to think they are. Depending on what hits it and how many, some operational capability would be lost. Carrier in WW2 were able to remain operational after sustaining serious damage and they were certainly more fragile (open hangars, wooden/unarmored flight decks/avgas) than today's CVNs

Most of the pundits commenting on surface ship vulnerability don't have any first hand experience with their construction or weapons capability.
 

E. Bryant

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By fucking it up I would mean over riding the initial decision.

Change the rules going forward and make movements/readiness of nukes something posted ahead of time online fine but if the rules at present were broken than support the initial decsion.
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, there is certainly some precident established for that behavior, eh?
 

pmclaine

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Even with all the surveillance available today, ship (or any military unit for that matter) movement information is classified for several very good reasons.

It's extremely unlikely that any country would use a tactical nuke against another nuclear power. That's pretty much suicide.

In a conventional war, it's going to be pretty difficult to actually sink a carrier. A torpedo salvo will do it, but that's no different from any other ship and hasn't changed since WW2. However, carriers aren't as fragile as some seem to think they are. Depending on what hits it and how many, some operational capability would be lost. Carrier in WW2 were able to remain operational after sustaining serious damage and they were certainly more fragile (open hangars, wooden/unarmored flight decks/avgas) than today's CVNs

Most of the pundits commenting on surface ship vulnerability don't have any first hand experience with their construction or weapons capability.

If having me in mind, You are absolutely right about me not knowing of the survivability of ships but I have a ton of respect, as do the Japanese, for what the Navy was able to resurrect after Pearl Harbor. How many times should the Enterprise have been knocked out but was ready to go within days.

I can only think of the threat to them being a nuclear "area" hit - you dont actually have to hit it just be close enough.

I dont think an attack like that on the HMS Sheffield is going to take out the Roosevelt and I dont even think it possible (which means the lucky guy will make it happen).

Since WWII the biggest threat/most damaging entity to our carrier fleet has been USN Pilot - John McCain.
 

308pirate

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If having me in mind, You are absolutely right about me not knowing of the survivability of ships but I have a ton of respect, as do the Japanese, for what the Navy was able to resurrect after Pearl Harbor. How many times should the Enterprise have been knocked out but was ready to go within days.

I can only think of the threat to them being a nuclear "area" hit - you dont actually have to hit it just be close enough.

I dont think an attack like that on the HMS Sheffield is going to take out the Roosevelt and I dont even think it possible (which means the lucky guy will make it happen).

Since WWII the biggest threat/most damaging entity to our carrier fleet has been USN Pilot - John McCain.
Really wasn't directed at you. There's a lot of pundits who think carriers are already obsolete. But there's a reason they're pundits and not strategists.

An area nuke will fuck shit up, but I'm almost certain that will get quickly so out of hand that no one other than krazy kim would try it.
 

E. Bryant

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Just out of curiousity, what do we think our reaction would be to a conventional attack on a carrier? Methinks by the time things have gotten that spicy, we're not far from exchanging nukes.
 

pmclaine

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Just out of curiousity, what do we think our reaction would be to a conventional attack on a carrier? Methinks by the time things have gotten that spicy, we're not far from exchanging nukes.

Depends on the attacker.....

Iran decides to take apart all their F4s to make one flyable and sends it toward a carrier group Im thinking the over lapping defenses dont allow it to get within strike distance.

Iran decides to send something low tech like a speed boat ditto but probably more likely, if planned cunningly and with suicide in mind, to get close enough to scorch the paint on the side of the ship. They would probably have to run a gauntlet of gun fire that would make Knob Creek look lame.

If Iran, or some sort of ISIS attack were able to actually damage an AC carrier it would not be WWIII.

China or Russia does something its going to be a slippery slope. Ditto for a close satellite like North Korea.

How far it progresses would depend on how committed either China or Russia would be to choosing the war path.

You never know what kind of fuck up can happen though that allow the impossible to be possible. Would you ever think a tanker would ram a frigate?
 
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RyanScott

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Ship movement information is classified. Whoever told you it's FOUO doesn't know what he's talking about, and clearly you don't either.
I didn’t read the letter and I’m surprised you did, given that you allege it has classified information, you must be certain you’ve held your last clearance. I don’t know if he commented on movements of the ship, all I know with certainty is that the commented the ship was available for normal operations if the juice was worth the squeeze, but ought to be cleared out for a bit. In any case I haven’t taken a position in Croziers firing, I just know that Moldy is an idiot who is putting the administration in a bad position politically with his mouth running all the time.
 

W54/XM-388

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Depends on the attacker.....

Iran decides to take apart all their F4s to make one flyable and sends it toward a carrier group Im thinking the over lapping defenses dont allow it to get within strike distance.

Iran decides to send something low tech like a speed boat ditto but probably more likely, if planned cunningly and with suicide in mind, to get close enough to scorch the paint on the side of the ship. They would probably have to run a gauntlet of gun fire that would make Knob Creek look lame.

If Iran, or some sort of ISIS attack were able to actually damage an AC carrier it would not be WWIII.

China or Russia does something its going to be a slippery slope. Ditto for a close satellite like North Korea.

How far it progresses would depend on how committed either China or Russia would be to choosing the war path.

You never know what kind of fuck up can happen though that allow the impossible to be possible. Would you ever think a tanker would ram a frigate?
There is the other side of things as well.
We park our carrier groups off the cost of pushover countries all the time to do hostile actions.

If we were to try to do that say to Russia or China, most likely they would use tactical nuclear missiles / torpedoes to attack the entire carrier group the moment it turned hostile and started sending bombing runs towards their coast, or just say to hell with it and send in the ICBMs.

Now if we were to get into a naval battle type situation with China over say them trying to control some third country that we say no way about, then it's going to be a toss up as to who does what.
 
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E. Bryant

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Depends on the attacker.....

Iran decides to take apart all their F4s to make one flyable and sends it toward a carrier group Im thinking the over lapping defenses dont allow it to get within strike distance.

Iran decides to send something low tech like a speed boat ditto but probably more likely, if planned cunningly and with suicide in mind, to get close enough to scorch the paint on the side of the ship. They would probably have to run a gauntlet of gun fire that would make Knob Creek look lame.

If Iran, or some sort of ISIS attack were able to actually damage an AC carrier it would not be WWIII.

China or Russia does something its going to be a slippery slope. Ditto for a close satellite like North Korea.

How far it progresses would depend on how committed either China or Russia would be to choosing the war path.

You never know what kind of fuck up can happen though that allow the impossible to be possible. Would you ever think a tanker would ram a frigate?
Yeah, so prior to this post, I didn't think that your first hypothesis is likely (save this post so everyone can laugh at me in a few years), so the scenario I envisioned was a carrier getting knocked out by China, Russia, or a surrogate state. And if that were the case, then it does seem that we'd be well on our way to at least a tactical exchange of the big stuff.

Going back to your scenario of someone like Iran sneaking through an attack aircraft, suicide boat - or, perhaps most likely, a drone swarm - I'm not quite so confident in what our response would be under the current administration. That'd be a hell of a conversation to have over a drink or three.
 
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pmclaine

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Trumps policy is "Never apologize".

It actually works if you are right to begin with and Sec Nav was right.

If he was getting heat I hope it was for the apology not the original act.
 
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Redmanss

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Trumps policy is "Never apologize".

It actually works if you are right to begin with and Sec Nav was right.

If he was getting heat I hope it was for the apology not the original act.
The only heat was him being politically untenable and he has yet to face confirmation hearing. He would expend political capital, not acquire it. Not what the Navy and the defense of our nation needs, and after today he deserved to be sacrificed.
 
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pmclaine

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The only heat was him being politically untenable and he has yet to face confirmation hearing. He would expend political capital, not acquire it. Not what the Navy and the defense of our nation needs, and after today he deserved to be sacrificed.
He made his point now move on.

Wish the fuck they could find someone honorable and strategically smart to fill the role.
 
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RyanScott

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Are you worried you'll be tortured to reveal what you know?
No, my company works aboard naval installations and some of the work we chase requires clearances or at a minimum a UCNI contract and we could be asked about contact with classified information.
 

mikeinfwa

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I believe the issue is one best addressed by how CAPT Crozier would feel if one of his sailors went around him (ergo the chain of command) and sent a letter to the media about their operational status, sickness rates (which were inaccurate), and the needs of his fellow sailors to be "protected." Giving America's enemies valuable OPSEC information about readiness and response. He would probably say, don't do that, we have a better way of handling the situation
 

sleeplz

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Do you feel less safe now that one ship is off taking care of its guys? Do you want guys that follow a leader and respect those they work with so that they re-up? You gotta look at the long game and balance taking care of the mission and guys. The guy took a risk and knew what would happen to his career, but did what he thought was right. Something back seat quarterbacks will never understand.
 
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Palmetto-Pride

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Seems like a port visit to Vietnam on March 5th wasn't the smartest move was it absolutely necessary? If not why in the hell did they stop there? If it was necessary for refueling/supplies nobody on board should have been allowed off unless their job had to do with refueling/supplies. JMO from the backseat I have no experience and have no idea what it is like on a navel ship.... :unsure:
 
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EddieNFL

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No, my company works aboard naval installations and some of the work we chase requires clearances or at a minimum a UCNI contract and we could be asked about contact with classified information.
sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/
noun

  1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
    "his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"
So in the future, you'll know a reply isn't necessary.
 

pmclaine

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sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/
noun

  1. the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
    "his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"
So in the future, you'll know a reply isn't necessary.

The Spartans laconic humor would totally go over many peoples heads here.

Those guys were some sharp witted comedians.
 
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DarnYankeeUSMC

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I Know, right?
I mean why train hard to prepare for the hardest shit you may have to endure in your lifetime if you can lay around and eat ice cream and potato chips. Hey I bet if the Capt had happy hour every evening and beer for everyone the crew would love the Hell out of him.
Do you feel less safe now that one ship is off taking care of its guys? Do you want guys that follow a leader and respect those they work with so that they re-up? You gotta look at the long game and balance taking care of the mission and guys. The guy took a risk and knew what would happen to his career, but did what he thought was right. Something back seat quarterbacks will never understand.
You're a putz and should never be in charge of anything more than the Christmas party.
 
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sleeplz

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I Know, right?
I mean why train hard to prepare for the hardest shit you may have to endure in your lifetime if you can lay around and eat ice cream and potato chips. Hey I bet if the Capt had happy hour every evening and beer for everyone the crew would love the Hell out of him.

You're a putz and should never be in charge of anything more than the Christmas party.
Sit back and judge all you want from your safe computer, your welcome.
 

pmclaine

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I Know, right?
I mean why train hard to prepare for the hardest shit you may have to endure in your lifetime if you can lay around and eat ice cream and potato chips. Hey I bet if the Capt had happy hour every evening and beer for everyone the crew would love the Hell out of him.

You're a putz and should never be in charge of anything more than the Christmas party.

That guy need not worry in time of war the enemy will provide the hugs.

We are as soft as we ever have been during the history of the country.

Sure america is typically naive about the nature of threats and we are fortunate because of geography that we can be that way.

In the past though we had a population that knew hard work and had an idea of what deprivation was. Maybe, the horror, they had actually been in a school yard fight and new something of being punched in the face.

Take a look in that hanger deck video, even on a front line combat ship looks like a bunch of beta bodies that would be in for a rude awakening if they had to operate with subs and aircraft hunting them 24/7.
 
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Redmanss

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Do you feel less safe now that one ship is off taking care of its guys? Do you want guys that follow a leader and respect those they work with so that they re-up? You gotta look at the long game and balance taking care of the mission and guys. The guy took a risk and knew what would happen to his career, but did what he thought was right. Something back seat quarterbacks will never understand.
He could have done everything he did to take care of his crew and his ship without putting it in the public forum. He was talking with the Chief of Staff to SECNAV, and he raised none of the alarms to them as he did in his letter. He had a flag officer and the commander of the battle group a few doors down from him on the ship, and he raised none of the alarms to him that he did in his letter. So did he really do what he needed to in order to protect his crew? Did he raise his concerns to the people who could have actually made the timely decisions to prevent the further spread of the virus and not sicken further members of his crew? No, he failed miserably in that regard, instead he sent a letter over unsecure channels he 100% should have known would be leaked to the media, or he did it himself which I'm much further inclined to believe.

He wasn't a whistleblower fighting a rigged system, he was the commander of a US Navy warship with a duty to defend his nation first and foremost, and all other causes are to be forsaken in that endeavor. His duty to his personnel take a back seat to his duty to national defense in every decision he has to make every day. It's not easy to do that, and that's why it takes an extremely rare person to take command of a ship, battalion, or squadron. This isn't about being loved for caring for his crew, because that isn't why we put billions a year into being able to put an aircraft carrier to sea, and crew morale isn't what he is charged with carrying out in his duties, it is national defense and the projection of American interests. If he couldn't do that, then he needed to resign his commission far before he received command of a warship.

My men knew I would put their lives in danger to carry out the mission, and I did it numerous times. I buried eight of my men due to enemy contact, and I still had the full respect of them. It isn't easy to make those tough decisions that I knew stood great chance of some not coming back, but I still did it because it was the decision that needed to be made to prevent an even greater catastrophic loss. I knew it, they knew it, and they executed their duties accordingly.
 

sleeplz

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Redmanns, would you agree with his letter if he asked his chain of command privately, and was ignored?

Do you really think this letter was the first warning he put out?

Pmclaine, you talk about soft bodies and old generation, post a pic of your body and let us see if you follow your own advice about being hard.
 

Redmanss

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Redmanns, would you agree with his letter if he asked his chain of command privately, and was ignored?

Do you really think this letter was the first warning he put out?

Pmclaine, you talk about soft bodies and old generation, post a pic of your body and let us see if you follow your own advice about being hard.
No, I would not agree with it. He would then have had his orders and would be expected to carry them out. If he couldn’t handle that, he should have resigned in protest.
 

sleeplz

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So let's say he did that, some other "follower" would command the ship and everyone contracts covid. Congrats on thinking outside the box and having an entire crew sick.

Scenario 2, CPT Crozier does what he thinks is right and accepts responsibility. His guys are taken care of and the nation is just as safe as it was in the first scenario. National security has not changed.

Sit back and play backseat quarterback all you want, it's what soft men do.
 

GrayRyder

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Sleeplz ...just another tap on the ignore button. Due to contempt.
 

pmclaine

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Redmanns, would you agree with his letter if he asked his chain of command privately, and was ignored?

Do you really think this letter was the first warning he put out?

Pmclaine, you talk about soft bodies and old generation, post a pic of your body and let us see if you follow your own advice about being hard.
He should have used his chain of command.

If he gets ignored, he has the time, he can resign. Not wanting to go nuclear he could Request Mast.

His resignation would likely make news and he could put it out, as a free civilian and without jeopardizing ship readiness information, that he disagreed with a crew quality of life issue.

Real journalists would than get the story and it might actually have more impact as he maintains his honor, does not break security rules.

Put your braid on the line, not the security of your ship and crew.

Regards your desire for some dick pics from me.....this is Snipers Hide not Grindr.....Im flattered by your interest but thats not my thing.

Regards you concerns about my health, at 52 I've slowed a little. Im in better shape than I was at 18 but age does not contribute to recovery times.

If I could PT test under the USMC circa 86-90 rules Id get my 80, and allowed to kip, my 20. The 3 mile run would probably be in the 9 minute mile range if I had to run today. Turtle slow but Ill make that 3 miles without needing the cardiac cart at the end of it. All my running has been treadmill, given time to get on the road I think a 25 minute 3 mile is doable. I was a snail running 21-22 for 3 miles at 18-22 years old.

I work in a career that requires candidates to run a 1.5 mile run in just under 11 minutes to be considered for appointment. Average age of the candidates is probably +/- 25.

Anyone I meet attending the program the only advice I have is "You better be able to PT" and they continually tell me "No sweat".

I have yet to later meet one that if they dont get in its for some reason other than being able to make the 1.5 mile run......and unfortunately there are a lot of them.

Despite the motivation of easy potential earnings of over $2mill in the course of the career and a fixed pension when retired they wont get out and run.

The biggest attrition of candidates isnt background investigation issues its ability to meet the physical standards.

We keep going down this path Im certain the standards will be "relaxed".

35 is the cut off age to sign up for the written test. I sent my application in 20 or so days before turning 35. Got appointed but the next class didnt get money to start until 3 years later. The two hour daily PT time was my time, no DI had to shit on me or motivate me unlike a lot of the younger candidates.

Greatest perk of my job is that you are given an hour of PT time a day assuming operations allow. Im lucky I work with enough PTers that we cover each other and getting the hour is the norm. I cant believe every coworker doesnt take advantage of that perk but many dont.

Anyway to your disappointment Im not sending you any spank media but I assure you I'm pretty confident that if need be tomorrow I could pass each of the services basic PT programs but the combat portions Id probably need to train for.

If its any help there seems to be a lot of Joe Exotic pics showing up on line these days if you do a Google search you will get your fix.