Confederacy snowflakes

[mrdrar]

Let’s see if I can get myself banned or at least vilified:
1) the Civil War was not about state’s rights other than the right of the states to maintain slavery.
2) despite whatever other justification Lincoln gave about maintaining the Union, he waged the Civil War to end slavery.
3) the South lost, slavery was abolished. Ignorance and hatred were not abolished.
4) the Stars and Bars was never the flag of the Confederacy—it was one of several battle flags of Virginia. It was square not rectangular as today. It would have been historical only had it not been picked up by the KKK in the 20th century.
5) glorifying the Confederacy is a disgusting act by racists at worst, sore losers at best.
6) yes, many Confederate soldiers fought valiantly and with honor for a bad cause.
7) all monuments to the Confederacy should remain displayed in public wherever they are along with added plaques as needed to provide perspective.

 

[SSG69]

Vilified, check.

 

[mrdrar]

Let me add more for fairness:
8) Maryland’s treachery did not justify Lincoln ignoring habeas corpus.
9) the North does not get a pass—its mills benefited from cheap Southern cotton, its banks profited from the slave trade by bankrolling the ships, Northerners wanted the slaves freed but did not want them moving up north. While there were true abolitionists, some Northerners wanted the slaves freed to end the South’s “wage” advantage.

 

[kenny1773]

This feels like a really good place o drop this link

Everything You Know About the Civil War Is Wrong

It’s perhaps the most misunderstood event in the history of the United States

medium.com

but I know it either won't be read and/or it won't be understood

 

[Lapuapalooza]

4.)I agree.
5.) It is also known as the rebel flag. Rebel. As in, “You don’t get to tell ME what to do.” There is a sense of pride in being a rebel.
6.) Bad cause? If aggressors came at you on your native soil how would you respond? Do you think everyone that fought for the confederacy owned slaves? Perhaps they were just being good Americans and did not appreciate northern hostilities.

 

[kenny1773]

and you can determine where these facts came from

" more than 42 percent of New York City households held slaves "

" New York was next to last in abolishing slavery"

I have to ask on your backwards map of the world, was New York a southern state? Is the earth flat?

 

[kenny1773]

FUCK REVISIONIST HISTORY AND THOSE THAT BELIEVE IT!!!

 

[vh20]

A total of 39 posts in 8-1/2 years here and you suddenly think this is worth starting a thread? Just who do you think the Snowflake is, anyway?
Your #9 sort of disproves your #1, but isn’t the full story.
Banned? No. Vilified? I dunno, maybe. Pigeon-holed? Most likely.
@Bender (STAND DOWN!!)

 

[Xtate]

OP=Counter productive

 

[Maser]

You white devils!

 

[Amanda4461]

This feels like a really good place o drop this link

Everything You Know About the Civil War Is Wrong

It’s perhaps the most misunderstood event in the history of the United States

medium.com

but I know it either won't be read and/or it won't be understood

Thanks for an eye-opening article. It reinforces my belief that both my public school education, as well as my wife’s Catholic and private school education, are severely lacking in content. How does a chemical engineer with a masters degree graduate with great engineering and math skills, yet be unable to distinguish the difference between a Dimicrat, a RINO and a Republican? Worse, be unable to discuss either Socialism or Communism’s murderous leaders since WW1? I am slowly understanding why her entire family are Dims that pull a straight ticket, and all suck the state government tit. At least I converted her to vote Republican 25 years ago

 

[mrdrar]

This feels like a really good place o drop this link

Everything You Know About the Civil War Is Wrong

It’s perhaps the most misunderstood event in the history of the United States

medium.com

but I know it either won't be read and/or it won't be understood

Read and learned from it. Lincoln was complicated and not in a good way. Were the northern states subject to the same tariffs? Also, doesn’t change where we are now—although good to know more about how we got here.

 

[mrdrar]

and you can determine where these facts came from

" more than 42 percent of New York City households held slaves "

" New York was next to last in abolishing slavery"

I have to ask on your backwards map of the world, was New York a southern state? Is the earth flat?

Did New York hold slaves at the time of the Civil War? Or was NY the last northern state to hold slaves?

 

[mrdrar]

A total of 39 posts in 8-1/2 years here and you suddenly think this is worth starting a thread? Just who do you think the Snowflake is, anyway?
Your #9 sort of disproves your #1, but isn’t the full story.
Banned? No. Vilified? I dunno, maybe. Pigeon-holed? Most likely.
@Bender (STAND DOWN!!)

Yes, I think it is worth starting a thread. I’m responding to posts defending the Stars and Bars. The low post count in 8-1/2 years reflects listening before speaking. Most of my posts asked questions or tried to contribute where I thought I could. Yes, #9 definitely complicates #1. Pigeon-holed? Sad.

 

[mrdrar]

4.)I agree.
5.) It is also known as the rebel flag. Rebel. As in, “You don’t get to tell ME what to do.” There is a sense of pride in being a rebel.
6.) Bad cause? If aggressors came at you on your native soil how would you respond? Do you think everyone that fought for the confederacy owned slaves? Perhaps they were just being good Americans and did not appreciate northern hostilities.

I definitely get the idea of being a rebel and even more about defending your homeland. No, I do not think that all who fought for the Confederacy owned slaves. I do find the Stars and Bars offensive in its use today. It stems from the KKK intimidating black people. Much like I despise the display of the NAZI flag (yes, I know the Indian use predates it by centuries (millennia?) and that a U.S. Army unit used it prior to WWII). For what it’s worth, I got in trouble in a class on Affirmative Action when I pointed out that the last time a group got chosen for special treatment it did not end well for them.

 

[acudaowner]

while sadly it's not a snowflake it is a corn flake and it sort of looks like Lincoln .

 

[Aries256]

Let’s see if I can get myself banned or at least vilified:
1) the Civil War was not about state’s rights other than the right of the states to maintain slavery.
2) despite whatever other justification Lincoln gave about maintaining the Union, he waged the Civil War to end slavery.
3) the South lost, slavery was abolished. Ignorance and hatred were not abolished.
4) the Stars and Bars was never the flag of the Confederacy—it was one of several battle flags of Virginia. It was square not rectangular as today. It would have been historical only had it not been picked up by the KKK in the 20th century.
5) glorifying the Confederacy is a disgusting act by racists at worst, sore losers at best.
6) yes, many Confederate soldiers fought valiantly and with honor for a bad cause.
7) all monuments to the Confederacy should remain displayed in public wherever they are along with added plaques as needed to provide perspective.

 

[mrdrar]

View attachment 7350121

Care to elaborate?

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Go back to post #4 and review.

Care to elaborate?

 

[MosesTheTank]

Let’s see if I can get myself banned or at least vilified:
1) the Civil War was not about state’s rights other than the right of the states to maintain slavery.
2) despite whatever other justification Lincoln gave about maintaining the Union, he waged the Civil War to end slavery.
3) the South lost, slavery was abolished. Ignorance and hatred were not abolished.
4) the Stars and Bars was never the flag of the Confederacy—it was one of several battle flags of Virginia. It was square not rectangular as today. It would have been historical only had it not been picked up by the KKK in the 20th century.
5) glorifying the Confederacy is a disgusting act by racists at worst, sore losers at best.
6) yes, many Confederate soldiers fought valiantly and with honor for a bad cause.
7) all monuments to the Confederacy should remain displayed in public wherever they are along with added plaques as needed to provide perspective.

mrdrad, this is precisely the Confederate Snowflake position. I reject the idea that it represents revisionist history for by doing so we essentially deny the existence of the Snowflake, which has become the most noticeable feature on America's college campuses for over 40 years. All seven of your points are worth repeating, at length.

It is not worth recounting the congressional record, Lincoln's speeches, newspaper quotations, or his memoirs, or really any history at all prior to the mid-60s. Because it has nothing to do with any of your seven very salient points.

For instance, in his inaugural address, delivered on March 4, 1861, Lincoln proclaimed that it was his duty to maintain the Union. He also declared that he had no intention of ending slavery where it existed, or of repealing the Fugitive Slave Law. Even though the Republican party had run on an anti-slavery platform.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. "(1)

And so we can go on forever, ad nauseum. But that is not what the Snowflake is about. The Snowflake is reflected in the 43 million functional illiterates(2) in the country unable to read a road sign or a restaurant menu, one quarter of adults polled unaware that the earth revolves around the sun(3), 37% of college seniors believe that Ulysses S. Grant won the last battle of the Revolutionary War(4), or the 30 million Americans who say they have never heard of Mike Pence(5). And your post.

The Snowflake's world has at its periphery feelings. There is an inner border protection that prevents migratory uncomfortable facts from seeping in. Historical documents, especially when read in their entirety and accompanied by surrounding cultural artifacts that offer insightful context, are nothing but micro-aggressions that must be shouted down with screams of innumerable evil-isms and a river of virtue signalling tears broadcast on Insta or FB. Or in The Bear Pit.

The current wave of Snowflake experience is with the Civil War and its various artifacts that offend the landscape of acceptable sensibilities. The NYT and their 1619 Project say we should wail over them so let's just burn them to the ground, topple them, or do whatever it takes to extinguish them. Never mind that one of the most significant sea changes in American History, and one lived by a large portion of extant Americans, is the 1960's and the birth of our Great Society. That so many people feel and experience an intimate connection with Civil War personas, and early American settlers, but seem to have entirely missed a period of riotous upheaval in literally every public and private institution almost defines our existing power structures is an indicator of the nihilistic absolutism of the Snowflake. It is a usurpation and mangling of, amongst many things, the Confederacy and its entire historical record. It is this emotional tirade that has given rise to the Confederate Snowflake.

So it is appropriate that you have rendered your take on the Confederate Snowflake. I am glad you are honest enough to own it. It is a term I shall use going forward.

Whatever historical experience we are all supposed to internalize and rage about next is being formulated in the mind of Anderson Cooper. I look forward to reading how you feel about that, whatever it is.

(1) President Abraham Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861
(2) Adult Literacy in the United States
(3) New Survey: 1 in 4 Americans Believe the Sun Revolves Around the Earth
(4) The American Council of Trustees and Alumni
(5) More than 30 million Americans say they've never heard of Mike Pence

 

[DarnYankeeUSMC]

Let's look at the OP and his statements.
He sedes that his intelligence/knowledge is below that of the Hide. (He says that he has little to add and mostly just reads to gain knowledge)
So he's read this bullshit someplace else and doesn't have the intellectual ability to cypher it. So he starts this thread knowing that he was going to get the facts. I will bet that he's copying and pasting the responses here to the other place.
He may be trolling both places. At the minimum he's trolling here. His very first sentences say so.

 

[vh20]

Yes, I think it is worth starting a thread. I’m responding to posts defending the Stars and Bars. The low post count in 8-1/2 years reflects listening before speaking. Most of my posts asked questions or tried to contribute where I thought I could. Yes, #9 definitely complicates #1. Pigeon-holed? Sad.

Sad? No, in fact it's hilarious if you got the inside joke. But also true - you admitted in your first sentence that you're a troll. Why would you not expect people to then treat you as such? Amazing.

 

[Alphatreedog]

Evidently this is the new Social Justice curriculum. I'd venture a guess that even Poli Sci has been corrupted . To the OP . You may want to read some pre and post CW Constitutional Law arguments on the subject . They will provide a crystal clear picture of the reasoning and maneuvering of the day . Grabbing the low hanging fruit will leave one one the short end of an argument . Argument ie. debate , for he purpose of factual understanding and resolution as opposed to opinion . Godspeed .

 

[Lapuapalooza]

Please don’t use the term confederate snowflakes while describing these commies called Antifa. It is insulting to confederate rebels.

 

[srtsam]

I wonder a lot.... what if the south had ended slavery prior to leaving the union. what cause other than the north wanting to preserve the union could the north have used to ralley the troops? From the article above it seems that many would have been happy to simply let the south go and eventually they may or may not comeback. I wonder a lot about this and why England or any other Europeon power did not come to the aid of the south? If nothing else, it would have been a chance to weaken a former enemy from within.
yeah I think about this often

 

[Blue Sky Country]

I wanted to respond to this thread since I seen it...

But I just couldn't get my wood tip Black and Mild to light properly before doing so...

Maybe it is because I left it out next to the ashtray for too long in the recent damp weather...

Anyway it lit fully after a few passes with a torch but I got caught up in some other shit, so this thread became moot...

I always need one for subject matter like this, because it helps me stay calm and rational and not go full redneck/gangsta hybrid ...

That "stars and bars" mean something to a lot of people. Like, people who have cultivated the same patch of land and have grown up on it and raised families their whole lives. It is also home to a certain blend of music and folk instruments that possesses real medicinal and healing properties. Tread carefully around such subject matter,

That's all...

 

[seanh]

Since number one isn't correct, I'm wondering about the accuracy of the rest.

 

[clcustom1911]

This feels like a really good place o drop this link

Everything You Know About the Civil War Is Wrong

It’s perhaps the most misunderstood event in the history of the United States

medium.com

but I know it either won't be read and/or it won't be understood

Thats a great read. Flipping the script and forcing a higher moral imperative about abolishing slavery was the only thing which got glorified. The Tax Man needed his money.

 

[Lapuapalooza]

Thats a great read. Flipping the script and forcing a higher moral imperative about abolishing slavery was the only thing which got glorified. The Tax Man needed his money.

That’s the Lincoln I learned about. Despite the wave of heroism BS that spilled out over time. Fools gonna get fooled.

 

[mrdrar]

mrdrad, this is precisely the Confederate Snowflake position. I reject the idea that it represents revisionist history for by doing so we essentially deny the existence of the Snowflake, which has become the most noticeable feature on America's college campuses for over 40 years. All seven of your points are worth repeating, at length.

It is not worth recounting the congressional record, Lincoln's speeches, newspaper quotations, or his memoirs, or really any history at all prior to the mid-60s. Because it has nothing to do with any of your seven very salient points.

For instance, in his inaugural address, delivered on March 4, 1861, Lincoln proclaimed that it was his duty to maintain the Union. He also declared that he had no intention of ending slavery where it existed, or of repealing the Fugitive Slave Law. Even though the Republican party had run on an anti-slavery platform.

"I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. "(1)

And so we can go on forever, ad nauseum. But that is not what the Snowflake is about. The Snowflake is reflected in the 43 million functional illiterates(2) in the country unable to read a road sign or a restaurant menu, one quarter of adults polled unaware that the earth revolves around the sun(3), 37% of college seniors believe that Ulysses S. Grant won the last battle of the Revolutionary War(4), or the 30 million Americans who say they have never heard of Mike Pence(5). And your post.

The Snowflake's world has at its periphery feelings. There is an inner border protection that prevents migratory uncomfortable facts from seeping in. Historical documents, especially when read in their entirety and accompanied by surrounding cultural artifacts that offer insightful context, are nothing but micro-aggressions that must be shouted down with screams of innumerable evil-isms and a river of virtue signalling tears broadcast on Insta or FB. Or in The Bear Pit.

The current wave of Snowflake experience is with the Civil War and its various artifacts that offend the landscape of acceptable sensibilities. The NYT and their 1619 Project say we should wail over them so let's just burn them to the ground, topple them, or do whatever it takes to extinguish them. Never mind that one of the most significant sea changes in American History, and one lived by a large portion of extant Americans, is the 1960's and the birth of our Great Society. That so many people feel and experience an intimate connection with Civil War personas, and early American settlers, but seem to have entirely missed a period of riotous upheaval in literally every public and private institution almost defines our existing power structures is an indicator of the nihilistic absolutism of the Snowflake. It is a usurpation and mangling of, amongst many things, the Confederacy and its entire historical record. It is this emotional tirade that has given rise to the Confederate Snowflake.

So it is appropriate that you have rendered your take on the Confederate Snowflake. I am glad you are honest enough to own it. It is a term I shall use going forward.

Whatever historical experience we are all supposed to internalize and rage about next is being formulated in the mind of Anderson Cooper. I look forward to reading how you feel about that, whatever it is.

(1) President Abraham Lincoln’s First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1861
(2) Adult Literacy in the United States
(3) New Survey: 1 in 4 Americans Believe the Sun Revolves Around the Earth
(4) The American Council of Trustees and Alumni
(5) More than 30 million Americans say they've never heard of Mike Pence

I appreciate your counterpoint. Yes, I clearly have strong feelings about the Stars and Bars—perhaps to the point of too simplistic a view of the Civil War and those who memorialize it differently. The 1960s’ effects on education were an unmitigated disaster. Not a fan of Anderson Cooper or his rich person privilege.

 

[mrdrar]

Let's look at the OP and his statements.
He sedes that his intelligence/knowledge is below that of the Hide. (He says that he has little to add and mostly just reads to gain knowledge)
So he's read this bullshit someplace else and doesn't have the intellectual ability to cypher it. So he starts this thread knowing that he was going to get the facts. I will bet that he's copying and pasting the responses here to the other place.
He may be trolling both places. At the minimum he's trolling here. His very first sentences say so.

I prefer to keep this to facts and opinions and to avoid ad hominem attacks, so I will not respond to your statements about my intelligence. Your thoughts on my knowledge base are fair game. I read widely but my statements on the Stars and Bars are my own (to some ill-) considered opinion. I am not copying/pasting here or anywhere. I am not trolling. My opening statement reflects my personality and is intended to say that I know that what follows may be controversial.

 

[mrdrar]

Sad? No, in fact it's hilarious if you got the inside joke. But also true - you admitted in your first sentence that you're a troll. Why would you not expect people to then treat you as such? Amazing.

I did not and still do not get the inside joke. Please fill me in. My first sentence only reflects my personality and that I knew my post would be controversial. I do not think that opening a conversation on a controversial topic makes me a troll. I have learned a lot here on the Hide and hoped to contribute on a topic that I think needs discussion here. My simplistic view of the Civil War should not overshadow the offensiveness of the Stars and Bars.

 

[mrdrar]

Evidently this is the new Social Justice curriculum. I'd venture a guess that even Poli Sci has been corrupted . To the OP . You may want to read some pre and post CW Constitutional Law arguments on the subject . They will provide a crystal clear picture of the reasoning and maneuvering of the day . Grabbing the low hanging fruit will leave one one the short end of an argument . Argument ie. debate , for he purpose of factual understanding and resolution as opposed to opinion . Godspeed .

I’ve read more Constitutional law than I care to remember. Foundationally, Lincoln has little to stand on. Economic issues definitely played a role. Slavery was evil, lasted far too long, and showed no signs of being ended. I am not arguing that the ends justify the means—certainly not the slaughter of a million and a half soldiers. No, I have no answer. But glorifying the KKK by displaying the Stars and Bars is offensive—yes, my opinion. I probably should have left the Civil War out of it.

 

[mrdrar]

Please don’t use the term confederate snowflakes while describing these commies called Antifa. It is insulting to confederate rebels.

Calling commies Antifa is insulting to commies. Antifa are not anti-fascist they are pro-anarchists and the descendants of the 60s and 70s radicals who, by their own statements, would have killed millions of us and sent the rest to re-education camps.

 

[mrdrar]

I wonder a lot.... what if the south had ended slavery prior to leaving the union. what cause other than the north wanting to preserve the union could the north have used to ralley the troops? From the article above it seems that many would have been happy to simply let the south go and eventually they may or may not comeback. I wonder a lot about this and why England or any other Europeon power did not come to the aid of the south? If nothing else, it would have been a chance to weaken a former enemy from within.
yeah I think about this often

Ok, I get another shot at revisionist history. England had ended slavery, initially in England and Wales through Somerset’s case in 1772. The writing was on the wall for the rest of the Empire. This prompted the southern states to join the northern states (which had economic reasons) in 1776. England would have had a difficult time justifying open support of the South.

Had the South ended slavery, the North would have won the economic war without firing a shot.

 

[mrdrar]

I wanted to respond to this thread since I seen it...

But I just couldn't get my wood tip Black and Mild to light properly before doing so...

Maybe it is because I left it out next to the ashtray for too long in the recent damp weather...

Anyway it lit fully after a few passes with a torch but I got caught up in some other shit, so this thread became moot...

I always need one for subject matter like this, because it helps me stay calm and rational and not go full redneck/gangsta hybrid ...

That "stars and bars" mean something to a lot of people. Like, people who have cultivated the same patch of land and have grown up on it and raised families their whole lives. It is also home to a certain blend of music and folk instruments that possesses real medicinal and healing properties. Tread carefully around such subject matter,

That's all...

I have nothing but the deepest respect for those “who have cultivated the same patch of land and have grown up on it and raised families their whole lives.” (My first cut and paste.) I love the music. You may be right about this veering to close to religion (at least that is what I think you are implying—not intending to put words in your mouth).

 

[mrdrar]

I have nothing but the deepest respect for those “who have cultivated the same patch of land and have grown up on it and raised families their whole lives.” (My first cut and paste.) I love the music. You may be right about this veering to close to religion (at least that is what I think you are implying—not intending to put words in your mouth).

I should have added that Stars and Bars are an odd symbol for these people based on its origin as noted above.

 

[mrdrar]

Thats a great read. Flipping the script and forcing a higher moral imperative about abolishing slavery was the only thing which got glorified. The Tax Man needed his money.

Agreed but that does not diminish the need to address slavery.

 

[...]

The north held slaves during the war...the emancipation proclamation only effected rebel states and was done as a an attempt to damage southern economy, then EP did nothing to free the northern held slaves.

Lincoln is on record as saying if he could end the war without freeing a single slave, he would do it

The war was fought to preserve the union.... not over slavery

 

[LucasTNT]

Let’s see if I can get myself banned or at least vilified:
1) the Civil War was not about state’s rights other than the right of the states to maintain slavery.
2) despite whatever other justification Lincoln gave about maintaining the Union, he waged the Civil War to end slavery.
3) the South lost, slavery was abolished. Ignorance and hatred were not abolished.
4) the Stars and Bars was never the flag of the Confederacy—it was one of several battle flags of Virginia. It was square not rectangular as today. It would have been historical only had it not been picked up by the KKK in the 20th century.
5) glorifying the Confederacy is a disgusting act by racists at worst, sore losers at best.
6) yes, many Confederate soldiers fought valiantly and with honor for a bad cause.
7) all monuments to the Confederacy should remain displayed in public wherever they are along with added plaques as needed to provide perspective.

Spot on correct, except for point 7. I see no need to continue the hagiography over against the war leaders of the Confederacy. We do not need them to "remember history" any more than Germany should be putting up monuments to the "great heritage" of the NAZI party.

Also, you could add to the list the fact that most confederate statues and monuments were put up many decades after the Civil War was over in the South to try to rehabilitate the Confederacy and to encourage the mythology of the "great heritage" of the South. They went up after the era of reconstruction and during that time when Jim Crow took over and in many ways you there was the legal institution of "separate but equal" which was used to "keep blacks in their place.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

First, did you know that you're allowed to disagree with something for any reason and go on about your day? The confederate flag is one of those things. You can disagree with it if you're dumb enough to believe it symbolizes racism, you can even think the person flying one is an idiot if you wish because that is your right.

Second, the civil ware WAS NOT fought over slavery, there were freed blacks fighting for the south for fucks sake.

Not everyone can have their way and that is what FREEDOM is about. You are allowed to go on with your beliefs so long as I'm allowed to go on with mine, and we're both allowed to disagree and think whatever we want about the other. What we ARE NOT allowed to do is force our beliefs onto others, that's how people get hurt. No matter what group of people, there will never be those who agree on everything, it is not possible. There are no two people on this fucking planet who can agree on everything 100% of the time.

My situation for example, I'm a conservative that's an atheist. Most of my fellow conservatives are god fearing people, I don't believe in that, even when it's brought up in conversation I don't say anything because I know I am in the minority. I believe in science and evolution, and I don't believe anything unless it's proven. I'm not going to tell someone that they are wrong for believing there is a god or gods because they're not wrong since it's their right to do so even if I don't share the same belief. When I attend a dinner or event where the majority of the group wishes to pray, I don't kneel, I don't leave the room, I don't speak out, and I don't do anything to disgrace their beliefs because I'm not an asshole. I don't recite the prayer, or bow my head, I just sit or stand in silence giving them the respect that they deserve to practice their right.

 

[Sgt47]

Calling commies Antifa is insulting to commies. Antifa are not anti-fascist they are pro-anarchists and the descendants of the 60s and 70s radicals who, by their own statements, would have killed millions of us and sent the rest to re-education camps.

And they are irrationally butt-hurt by the Stars and Bars, like some other triggered individuals.

 

[mrdrar]

My thanks to those of you who provided counter arguments. I had hoped to hear from more of the usual heavy hitters. Should I take their silence as assent? Yes, that was intended to provoke a response. No, still not trolling.

 

[Dewey7271]

It’s difficult to debate when the initial premise is flawed.
With the current evolution of BLM etc which naturally in snowflake minds tends to implicate The War of Northern Aggression, clarity is hard to obtain. That the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia has become divisive I lament. Will the Screaming Eagle or Globe and Anchor be next?
Following the snowflake (leftist) playbook, groveling, reparations of some sort followed by rage and destruction naturally follow. Facts are, as @MosesTheTank very aptly pointed out, irrelevant.
I find it difficult to make the leap from constitutionally guaranteed protest to property destruction and theft. To me that nullifies any or all facets of the original protest.
Liberals or leftist do rage not logic. It’s impossible to do logic without facts and the actual facts don’t interest them, only those that fit or can be twisted to fit their agenda.
My grandfather, 4 or so times removed, never owned a slave nor did any other family members, yet answered the call for his state, fought, was captured and died in a prison camp in Elmira, N.Y.
Other direct family members fought for the south. Some lost and some died.
The links posted are excellent and offers clarity on matters of that day.
While history is written by winners revisionist history does no one any favors.

 

[j-huskey]

No offense to OP.
Bill of Rights enumerates CONUS.

Amendment 1, CONUS is considered the most important and was written as #1 for a reason.

I am free to speak, verbal, written, sign, or symbol.

I am free to believe and practice my belief without government interference.

I am free to assemble to speak, show, display or otherwise practice my belief.
Or assemble to petition redress of interference of my rights.

A number of court decisions reiterate that 1st important amendment that gives me my first ultimate freedom that touches everything I do thereafter.

In practicing my CONUS 1st Amendment guaranteed, as long as i do not criminally harm others, I am fully in my rights to do so.

That is GUARANTEED.

If anyone chooses to take offense at my practice of my guaranteed right, well, tough shit. Take offense, I didnt GIVE offense, the offended TOOK it. Dont want to be offended, dont TAKE it.....
If the offended takes steps to reduce, remove, or stop my practice of the guaranteed right, those offended violate my rights.

If i choose to take offense at your offended by my words, signs, symbols, or practice, then, i am wasting my valuable time being offended because you are offended.
There is no profit in me being offended while you exercise your guaranteed right to speak and believe in your offended.

If one resorts to criminal behavior in their offended to remove my 1st Amendment rights, then they are wrong, not me.

If you/they/whomever, and other offendeds succeed in piecemeal destruction of my guaranteed right, these parties destroy their own, and at some point, they may find themself where Martin Niemoller did.

It is a very slippery slope forcing offended beliefs on others against Constitutional guarantees.

Therein lies one very real reason wars are fought and people choose sides.

Therein lies one root of todays protests.

There is much blame to be passed around on illegality that harmed others after the 13th Amendment was ratified.

Like it or not....... slavery was legal and the law of the land until April 8, 1864 and January 31, 1865.

Why belabor a point that was settled by War and Constitutional Law on January 31, 1865 and Surrender on November 6, 1865.

The number of illegalities and Constitutional rights violations since November 6, 1865, created the morass some less enlightened people today continue to blame on slavery. Wrongly blame....

These same illegalities and rights violations from that date moot any further rational or reasonable need to argue the CAUSES of the uncivil war between the states.

Argue causes until hell freezes and solve nothing. Be stupid.

Identify the illegalities and rights violations PAST slavery, deal with them, and find solutions. Be smart.

The slavery horse had his legs broken prior to, and then took the death shot November 6, 1865. That dead horse has been beaten a long time. It is counterproductive to continue. The paragraph above is much more appropriate.

And, just fwiw. I have four sets of descendants. Three sets left the old country to get away from peasant serfdom that enslaved them. One set regrettably greeted the three sets on arrival.

One set refused to be part of the uncivil war, stayed in the wilds and refused to take either side, there was only one side mattered, the family side. They did kill soldiers from both North and South who threatened their families. Cheerfully.
One set fought for the north because it was their duty to their country.
One set fought for the South because they didnt want somebody resembling old country rulers telling them what to do, and somebody sent by "new"'old country rulers' invaded into their state, f'ing with their lives. They were touchy about that, much like set 1.
The remaining set fought with both sides because it was legal to kill white people... a little payback there.
None of my descendants fought for slavery to maintain that peculiar institution. 3/4 of them hated it because the places they came from had enslaved them. Those 3/4 fought the invaders who were coming into their state, fucking up their lives.
The other quarter fought solely to keep their way of life. Slavery was 300 years legal in their way of life and they were unapologetic about it. There was much more to the way of life to fight about, mainly the freedom to control their own destiny and be beholden to no government, ruler, or man. They would answer only to God on Judgment Day, damn the consequences.

Me, i wasnt there then, had absolutely no part in that, nope, not going to take any responsibility for any past shit I wasnt in. I heard all that stuff growing up. Said f'it, today is my life, let's get on with it.

 

[mrdrar]

It’s difficult to debate when the initial premise is flawed.
With the current evolution of BLM etc which naturally in snowflake minds tends to implicate The War of Northern Aggression, clarity is hard to obtain. That the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia has become divisive I lament. Will the Screaming Eagle or Globe and Anchor be next?
Following the snowflake (leftist) playbook, groveling, reparations of some sort followed by rage and destruction naturally follow. Facts are, as @MosesTheTank very aptly pointed out, irrelevant.
I find it difficult to make the leap from constitutionally guaranteed protest to property destruction and theft. To me that nullifies any or all facets of the original protest.
Liberals or leftist do rage not logic. It’s impossible to do logic without facts and the actual facts don’t interest them, only those that fit or can be twisted to fit their agenda.
My grandfather, 4 or so times removed, never owned a slave nor did any other family members, yet answered the call for his state, fought, was captured and died in a prison camp in Elmira, N.Y.
Other direct family members fought for the south. Some lost and some died.
The links posted are excellent and offers clarity on matters of that day.
While history is written by winners revisionist history does no one any favors.

I agree with almost all of your post. That flag would have been an historical artifact had it not been unfortunately repurposed by the KKK.

 

[mrdrar]

No offense to OP.
Bill of Rights enumerates CONUS.

Amendment 1, CONUS is considered the most important and was written as #1 for a reason.

I am free to speak, verbal, written, sign, or symbol.

I am free to believe and practice my belief without government interference.

I am free to assemble to speak, show, display or otherwise practice my belief.
Or assemble to petition redress of interference of my rights.

A number of court decisions reiterate that 1st important amendment that gives me my first ultimate freedom that touches everything I do thereafter.

In practicing my CONUS 1st Amendment guaranteed, as long as i do not criminally harm others, I am fully in my rights to do so.

That is GUARANTEED.

If anyone chooses to take offense at my practice of my guaranteed right, well, tough shit. Take offense, I didnt GIVE offense, the offended TOOK it. Dont want to be offended, dont TAKE it.....
If the offended takes steps to reduce, remove, or stop my practice of the guaranteed right, those offended violate my rights.

If i choose to take offense at your offended by my words, signs, symbols, or practice, then, i am wasting my valuable time being offended because you are offended.
There is no profit in me being offended while you exercise your guaranteed right to speak and believe in your offended.

If one resorts to criminal behavior in their offended to remove my 1st Amendment rights, then they are wrong, not me.

If you/they/whomever, and other offendeds succeed in piecemeal destruction of my guaranteed right, these parties destroy their own, and at some point, they may find themself where Martin Niemoller did.

It is a very slippery slope forcing offended beliefs on others against Constitutional guarantees.

Therein lies one very real reason wars are fought and people choose sides.

Therein lies one root of todays protests.

There is much blame to be passed around on illegality that harmed others after the 13th Amendment was ratified.

Like it or not....... slavery was legal and the law of the land until April 8, 1864 and January 31, 1865.

Why belabor a point that was settled by War and Constitutional Law on January 31, 1865 and Surrender on November 6, 1865.

The number of illegalities and Constitutional rights violations since November 6, 1865, created the morass some less enlightened people today continue to blame on slavery. Wrongly blame....

These same illegalities and rights violations from that date moot any further rational or reasonable need to argue the CAUSES of the uncivil war between the states.

Argue causes until hell freezes and solve nothing. Be stupid.

Identify the illegalities and rights violations PAST slavery, deal with them, and find solutions. Be smart.

The slavery horse had his legs broken prior to, and then took the death shot November 6, 1865. That dead horse has been beaten a long time. It is counterproductive to continue. The paragraph above is much more appropriate.

And, just fwiw. I have four sets of descendants. Three sets left the old country to get away from peasant serfdom that enslaved them. One set regrettably greeted the three sets on arrival.

One set refused to be part of the uncivil war, stayed in the wilds and refused to take either side, there was only one side mattered, the family side. They did kill soldiers from both North and South who threatened their families. Cheerfully.
One set fought for the north because it was their duty to their country.
One set fought for the South because they didnt want somebody resembling old country rulers telling them what to do, and somebody sent by "new"'old country rulers' invaded into their state, f'ing with their lives. They were touchy about that, much like set 1.
The remaining set fought with both sides because it was legal to kill white people... a little payback there.
None of my descendants fought for slavery to maintain that peculiar institution. 3/4 of them hated it because the places they came from had enslaved them. Those 3/4 fought the invaders who were coming into their state, fucking up their lives.
The other quarter fought solely to keep their way of life. Slavery was 300 years legal in their way of life and they were unapologetic about it. There was much more to the way of life to fight about, mainly the freedom to control their own destiny and be beholden to no government, ruler, or man. They would answer only to God on Judgment Day, damn the consequences.

Me, i wasnt there then, had absolutely no part in that, nope, not going to take any responsibility for any past shit I wasnt in. I heard all that stuff growing up. Said f'it, today is my life, let's get on with it.

I fully support anyone’s right to display the Stars and Bars—and all of everyone’s Constitutional rights. I just hate what that flag is used to represent today. The fact that slavery once was legal does not mean that it ever was right or that those who held slaves were right to do so. Trying to change minds about that flag is my attempt to move us away from that past.

 

[Lapuapalooza]

I’ve read more Constitutional law than I care to remember. Foundationally, Lincoln has little to stand on. Economic issues definitely played a role. Slavery was evil, lasted far too long, and showed no signs of being ended. I am not arguing that the ends justify the means—certainly not the slaughter of a million and a half soldiers. No, I have no answer. But glorifying the KKK by displaying the Stars and Bars is offensive—yes, my opinion. I probably should have left the Civil War out of it.

There is nothing wrong with the stars and bars. There is a lot wrong the the KKK. Saying that the stars and bars are in the wrong is the same as the vilification of gun owners due to the actions of one.

 

[...]

I fully support anyone’s right to display the Stars and Bars—and all of everyone’s Constitutional rights. I just hate what that flag is used to represent today. The fact that slavery once was legal does not mean that it ever was right or that those who held slaves were right to do so. Trying to change minds about that flag is my attempt to move us away from that past.

What exactly does the flag represent today?

Because no one I’ve ever talked to who flies a confederate flag agrees with racism, white supremacy, or agrees that slavery was a good thing.

Most people see it as a symbol of “southern pride” in general..

Just because some assholes use the flag at kkk protests doesn’t change the meaning of the flag or change what it’s represents..... that’s like saying the American flag is racist because the KKK also flies it at their rallies

 

[johnnycat]

I haven't seen it posted - sorry if I missed it. I didn't read any of the multi-paragraph posts.

Just to be clear - it does not appear that you know what the "Stars and Bars" actually was. It was the official government flag and I do not see it flying anywhere. What I see is the "Battle Flag" being flown. It is a shame that it has been repurposed.