Yessir, I'm aware. When they, admittedly, copied my mag, there were some features left out that controls the departure angle on the way to the chamber. Also, many are under the impression there's a feed ramp in the front top of the magazine. There isn't, as the bullet would/will touch such a feature when it shouldn't touch anything enroute to the chamber.
Its a constant battle to fool proof a design (both in production + field use/operation) vs maintain flexibility in the same.
I’ll post overlays of numerous followers atop my original follower from 2010 that show the exact same departure angle. The aftermarket samples are marketed as “enhanced.”
Parts are still churning at two vendors. I dumped a lot of parts on them at once, so they're digging through the pile.
Feed angle.
Proper feeding of a 22LR isn't about just one thing, or even two things. The basis of proper feeding is timing due to the need to control the round on its path to the centerline of the bore.
This isn't a response to the above, but my membership level disallows me to post directly. I'm not aware of another way to address this group without starting another thread that may not be noticed.
Sir, you summed it up to a "T." Thank you, and no, you're not being impertinent, and you said what ought to be said. The supposed solutions have become distractions that have led to bigger problems. You've also recognized the reasoning behind developing a system based strictly on data and foundational information. No guesswork, no conjecture, no belt sanders....
Absolutely, by adhering to two, simple dimensions (as it pertains to the chassis itself) that drive the vertical positioning of the magazine. Of course there are other things to consider, but assuming those are as they should be, the rest is simple.
Are you willing to share those dimensions at some point so we can evaluate the chassis that conform or don't conform to them? That would be good info. I suspect it is likely a small group of them that do but don't know. Have experience personally with MDT ACC Premier Gen1/2, ACC Elite, MPA Matrix Pro 2 and XLR Element. All are a bit different as you might imagine and all seem to have gone the route of the maligned adjustable mag catch.
Very well stated, Chris, and you summed up all the symptoms of the greater problem. I've thought about sharing the dims, but the problem is, reference points to arrive at a measured dim will likely be different for everyone, which is no help at all. I'm working on how to address this.
Since you all have been generous enough to read my musings, I'll chance offering another thought:
I don't have much to add in this exact portion of the conversation, just want to throw out that this is not a new thing in the rimfire world. Tippmann Arms has a magazine with a cover that slides over the whole thing. While those magazines function fine in my experience, and the cover does what you're searching for, I think it's more of an aesthetic thing...so they look more like a "real" AR. Is that a function we "need" in the magazine(s) @RAVAGE88 is designing as we bang away at our keyboards in this thread?
I suppose that I think of it as a while-you're-at-it item. I don't care a tinker's dam's worth how the magazine looks: Svelte and pleasing is nice, agressive and AR-ish is okay, I guess, but function's the thing. Since people mentioned the downside of an open magazine, it seems to me worth a look as the striving for ever-evanescent perfection rolls along. Perfection is, truly, the enemy of plenty good enough...but morally we should try to approach the former asymptotically and as closely as feasible. That seems, to me, anyway, Mr. Bush's sensibilityI don't have much to add in this exact portion of the conversation, just want to throw out that this is not a new thing in the rimfire world. Tippmann Arms has a magazine with a cover that slides over the whole thing. While those magazines function fine in my experience, and the cover does what you're searching for, I think it's more of an aesthetic thing...so they look more like a "real" AR. Is that a function we "need" in the magazine(s) @RAVAGE88 is designing as we bang away at our keyboards in this thread?
I like the color. But make it washable so it can keep its nice clean sheen. Been shooting black mags since Vietnam. (And the darnn tightwads would only give us ONE Thirty round mag!
). Everywhere you go, everyone has nothing but black mags, black gowns are ok for nights out at the opera, but give us something a bit more colorful for everyday use.
Thank you, again, for being willing to step outside the "conventional" envelope and throwing spaghetti on the wall. It truly is how this stuff works, and I've personally gone down numerous paths over the years that started out as a "very good bad idea" (I'm not in any way putting your above words in the same classification).
I just spent a weekend ROing a large PRS match, and man it was incredible seeing how many multi-thousand-dollar custom rifles fed like total crap. As someone in the industry on the product support and development side of things, it boggles the mind how poorly a lot of rifles feed - the adjustable mag catches certainly don't seem to help at all. It's refreshing to see and hear about the things your working on Mike, customers deserve better, and shouldn't have to resort to janky corrections to improve products that are relatively costly -- and that generate the problems from the get go.Very well stated, Chris, and you summed up all the symptoms of the greater problem. I've thought about sharing the dims, but the problem is, reference points to arrive at a measured dim will likely be different for everyone, which is no help at all. I'm working on how to address this.
Limiting vertical movement is the key to addressing what you've described, which is what my limiting piston was designed to do, and I originally put it out-in-the-wild in 2010. VGW never used the piston because someone thought it was a better idea to put threads in the piston bore so it was easy to hang the DBM on a rack for Cerakote.
The way Kenny is addressing the issue is exactly what the piston does, and he and I spoke specifically about this a couple weeks ago. He's doing good stuff. Also, my new actions have a provision to limit magazine movement beyond the target dim.
My first order of business has been to design with purity, not recklessness, and to discuss the basis of the poor feeding/cycling openly, because my observation has been that the community is fed up with being blown off. Other fine examples of how the community feels has unfolded in another thread about doors that closed a few months ago.
What I'll ask at this point is to be patient, which is probably unfair of me to ask given the obvious, but keep an eye on my FB group, as more will be unfolding over there.
MB
Yo Dude,
I’ve got a very expensive and now useless aftermarket magazine that suffered from exactly that. I messed with the 3D printed follower before a realized it would never work due to the mag tower being too close to the chamber face. I’ll bet many of us here have many $100’s invested in useless mags.
There's a lot to unpack here, but largely, I disagree with most of it.
This ties into what I’ve observed over a few years running PRS22 matches. Well stated.
Yo Dude, shoot an email to [email protected] and I'll get you sorted out. The new 10 round magazine is in prototyping and moving along very well, in addition to a number of other things. You can also get more info without readding 200 plus pages in my FB Group. If you're on FB, do a search for DeLane Development Group and click JOIN.
I still can't believe how well my Vudoo .22 feeds. At this point it has seen many, many thousands of rounds in both a GrayBoe stock + bottom metal and an MDT XRS chassis. With the plastic Vudoo mags it continues to feed all the different ammo (lapua, eley, eley CMP, CCI, aguila) that I regularly use without shaving lead and with only the ocasional accidental rim lock on my part. This is increadibly impressive given the tiny margine for error involved. I remeber how much time you spent prototyping out different magazine designs with tiny changes. It is appreciated. I have a number of center fires that do not feed as consitently and reliably despite the huge margin of error they have to work with. I also have a number of other precision rimfires that feed reliably but shave lead on the regular. The Vudoo is downright impressive in it's performance. Perhaps if I shot up against barriers I would have some issues but I really don't and have had remarkably consistant performance. I plan on picking up one of your new mags in one of the higher capacities when they come out. I really wish other magazine designers spent the same time iterativly testing and improving their product before launch as Mike did. Half the .223rem mags on the market should not have trouble with half the rifles.
To continue the too soon but wondering questions, let’s ask about barrels and your new action. I was out shooting my KIDD supergrade yesterday. Doing some ammo and barrel and suppressor playing. Trying to understand the differences in POI between a 16 inch lightweight barrel and 20 inch bull barrel , with and without a can and using different ammo types. A fun day. The KIDD supergrade allows me to swap barrels in about a minute. Two screws and that’s it. The barrels return to the same indexing and poi if removed and then returned. Neat concept. So, first question, have you considered a similar system? Or any system with quick change barrels. While not always needed, it is nice to be able to quickly change from a lightweight squirrel/critter getter to a heavier, longer, benchrest type barrel.
Thank you, Sir, your words are very humbling.
