Do you believe the reloading manuals???

[BK7saum]

I was looking up load data for my 7mm SAUM and was a little concerned with the powder charges for H1000 between the SAUM, Rem Mag and WSM for a 175 grain bullet...

Granted the 175 grain bullets were all from different manufactures, but there was a disparity between the three cartridges.

IIRC, the SAUM has the least capacity, the WSM has the most and the REM Mag is in the middle.

According to Hodgdon, The max load for the SAUM is 65.5 gr H1000 for the 175 GR. HDY SP , The max load for the Rem Mag is 64.5 gr. H1000 for the 175 GR. NOS PART and the max load for the WSM is 62.0 gr. for a 175 GR. SPR MAG TIP.

Granted, since I am starting at 61.0 grains with a 180 JLK in a SAUM case with .180 freebore (COL of 3.085), I will be well below a max charge.

What surprised me was the WSM max charge was 3.5 grains below the SAUM and the WSM has 8-10% more capacity.

Anyone noticed a similar instance with other calibers?

 

[ChrisGarrett]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Different bullets with differing bearing surface lengths and different (as you discovered in your other post) bullet diameters will yield disparate pressure curves in any particular pressure/test barrel.

Also, you have a better burn efficiency with the shorter, fatter cases than you do with the longer, more slender powder columns.

This could account for the differing 'max' charges.

Honestly, they really should be called 'reloading guides' and a reloader should always determine for themself, what exactly a safe charge is, in their own firearms.

Chris

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

I believe manuals completly.

I'm certain they give us exactly the results they found IN THEIR RIFLES. They don't use the same rifles so I expect differences between the manuals. And none of the manual makers used my rifles anywsy so I have to do a little thinking myself no matter what the manuals say. ??

I really doubt the bearing surfaces of different bullets make very much difference to our loads but the differences in rifles clearly does. Whatever, the adage to 'start low, work up unless/until .... etc.' is the proper way to accomidate any differences.

 

[BK7saum]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

I agree 100%. I've been reloading for a number of years and always start low and work up. On some rounds, due to seating longer that COL spec'd or even to using a different bullet, I have been over the max charge by a bit.

On the other hand, I had a case failure from overpressure in a .25-06 AI and 117 Hornady SPBT with a middle of the road standard .25-06 load. (Go figure!!!) I think the powder was 7828. This wasn't an overcharge. The charge below this did show pressure signs, but I didn't look close enough at the case since I was well below max charge for a standard .25-06. And so, I continued up the ladder. And had a case head separation in an Encore. The primer pocket was enlarged and the rim flowed into the extractor groove. The lug on the frame was bent a little. I don't know about the frame, because it was replaced with a new one. I told the company what happened and that it was my fault, but ended up with a new frame anyway.

I didn't have a chronograph at the time or I might have caught this with velocity data.

Again, they should be guides because each rifle/load, however similar cannot, be predicted.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

This question reminds me of why we have at least 3 reloading manuals. You have at least 3 so you can compare the recommendations of different manufactures on different assumptions, and make sensible choices for yourself concerning reload starting points.

 

[Doc Holiday13]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This question reminds me of why we have at least 3 reloading manuals. You have at least 3 so you can compare the recommendations of different manufactures on different assumptions, and make sensible choices for yourself concerning reload starting points. </div></div>

x2

Their data is just a "safe" starting point. Otherwise you'd have people loading 20 grains of red dot into a 3006 and blowing themselves up

 

[Clark]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Novice hand loaders should use published loads.
Novice cooks should use published recipes.
Novice engineers should follow procedures.

 

[hntbambi]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I believe manuals completely. </div></div>

I too believe manuals. I do compare at least 3 sources for data before coming up with my recipe for my components.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really doubt the bearing surfaces of different bullets make very much difference to our loads but the differences in rifles clearly does. </div></div>

If bearing surface does not matter what dictates the different powder charges from a .308 diameter 175 gr BTHP and a 180 gr round nose design? The bearing surface <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> one of the major determining factors of what the pressure of your given load is. The longer the bearing surface, the higher the pressure is. Peak pressure is just after ignition, just as the bullet is driving into the lands and grooves. The more material there is to fit into the bore, the higher the pressure will be. Check out the Hornady book for the 180 gr bullets compared to the 190 BTSP. Hornady even mentions the shorter bearing surface of the 190 gr bullet allows a higher charge than some of the 180 gr bullets.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Whatever, the adage to 'start low, work up unless/until .... etc.' is the proper way to accommodate any differences. </div></div>

Very true. Not to pick on you Fuzzball, just commenting on many things I have read on the net lately. There are a butt load of arm chair cyber-ballistician experts on shooting forums these days that think they know what they are doing. Most have no clue what pressure levels they are really shooting. Dollars to donuts they are over max pressures. Even though they don't see "pressure signs" like having to pry the bolt open/sticky bolt lift, they think their load is perfectly fine. Most have no idea of the velocity curve of their worked up load, or how far from max they really are. Push the load an extra little bit to get an extra 50-75 fps, while reducing brass life, extra stress on the barrel, locking lugs, and bolt face.

 

[The Mechanic]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Over the years powder and its properties change. Case in point is IMR 5010. The new IMR 5010 is about 10% hotter and will over pressure big time at recommended weights. It is a good idea to get the latest loading data for the newest powder.

 

[BK7saum]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

I do have manuals laying all over the place. However, some are older than others and there was not much in my manuals on H1000, a 175 or 180 grain bullet and the SAUM.

IIRC, My hornady manual did not list H1000. The slowest powder listed was H4831. So in this case, I am having to rely on the data in the Hodgdon manual as well as charges found elsewhere on the internet from more reputable sources. I would never take data posted by folks on the internet without verifying with a couple of manuals that it is in the safe range and work up from a starting charge listed in a manual (oops!, I meant guide!).

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

"If bearing surface does not matter ...", etc.

You are lifting fragments of my observations out of the context they were properly presented. Read the whole thing for my actual message and you will understand why I suggested such things as bearing surface, or OAL, or primer, or powder lot, or brass lot, etc., doesn't matter as we develop our loads. Especially read the part (which you eventually <span style="text-decoration: underline">do</span> come into agreement with me) about <span style="text-decoration: underline">starting low and increasing charges only as pressure signs permit</span>.

<span style="text-decoration: underline">THAT rule, and ONLY that rule, is what matters</span>; not the bullet, not the OAL, not the primer, not the brand of book or attempting to balance what any number of other books may say. We MUST load <span style="font-style: italic">our</span> rifles with <span style="font-style: italic">our</span> components and they are not what the book makers used so our results will NOT be the same. Averaging book loads will NOT automatically make the information more accurate and no comparing of books or averaging suggested charges, etc, matters if the end result doesn't match our rifle...and it rarely can. Meaning no one can spoon feed us precision loading info so we MUST have the intelligence to use book data intelligently, not as holy writ!

I've been doing this some 45 years and for some dozens of rifles and manuals. That's plenty enough to have learned that we loading geeks gravitate to multipul manuals largely because we are fasinated with the whole thing. From that, we reach a point early on where we convience ourselves we "need" all those books but, fact is, we <span style="font-style: italic">REALLY</span> don't! In truth, ONE manual is plenty, perhaps especially for a noob. If he can't handle his problems with <span style="text-decoration: underline">one</span> he sure can't with more. And, if he had the thirty or so manuals sitting on my shelf he would only be <span style="text-decoration: underline">vastly</span> more confused!

As a side issue, I often feel many of us want noobs to think and do what we old hands have come to do largely because we figger they should come to think and do like us. But, in my experiece, that's rarely what they need; few others need to be exactly like me! Therefore, I try to use my experience to provide accurate information that the questioner actually needs to be aware of, not to guide him into becoming my mirror image.

 

[Fred_C_Dobbs]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

IMHO, the greater problem is that there is no perfect method for measuring chamber pressure. The most accurate methods have problems with repeatability and the most repeatable methods base their measurements on indirect measurement.

And lawyers and stir.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Thoughts in general, regarding my experience...FWIW.

No bad advice in looking to load manuals for data, if your into it far enough there's a good starting point found in any of them. I've found bullet manufacturers data to be more useable than powder manufacturers data.

Lately though, I just cut to the chase. I pick my bullet, pick a powder that will give me a good load density without compressed charges. Then run a quickload via my case capacity and primer type to get a theoretical max charge. I back off that a prudent amount then work up to find pressure. I'll find two accuracy nodes for my particular barrel...one will be about two thirds the way up to pressure and the other will be just shy of what quickload says was a max charge. Generally I'll run with the faster of the two.

Again, FWIW..........

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

"I've found bullet manufacturers data to be more useable than powder manufacturers data."

Out of pure curosity, in what way have your found bullet maker data to be "more usable" than others?

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Out of pure curosity, in what way have your found bullet maker data to be "more usable" than others?

</div></div>

My usual SOP is to build a load for a specific bullet, and occasionally been known to build an entire rifle around a certain bullet. In that light, knowing me fairly well, I'd be quicker to reference the bullet makers for powders they've tested/published for that specific bullet, instead of looking to the powder makers for data that generally isn't for the bullet I'm using. A little easier path to a little quicker result, I'm sorta weird that way....

Savvy..?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

"I'm sorta weird that way...."

Yeah, I "savvy'. But that does nothing at all to explain why you feel you get "more usable" info from the bullet maker's manuals. ??

 

[hntbambi]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Well Fuzz, you hit the nail on the head about the noobs. Not everyone has to be into the esoteric levels of internal ballistics to load ammo. But, many noobs just want to jump to the "special recipe" that will give them screamer groups at whatever distance.

For those in search of the "best load", watch the benchrest guys shoot and load. They can vary their load from match to match and often throughout the day as environmental conditions change in an effort to get that elusive bug hole group.

I have played with a very cool toy called the RSI Pressure Trace System. It <span style="font-style: italic">will</span> show you what your recipes are doing in your barrel. A friend had one while I lived back in Northern VA and I used it to develop some load info for a smokeless powder muzzleloader and a couple wildcats I have. I did find that while a particular load will indeed give different pressure readings in different barrels, it was not off that much. I think the largest gap I saw, was about 1.5 gr on a 308 Win with 168 gr bullets. This was across a factory Rem 700PSS, a Rem Model 7, and a custom 700 with Pac-Nor barrel.

I can say that from the data I saw, I do believe loading manuals. They do indeed report accurate loadings based on <span style="font-style: italic">their</span> configuration (temp, barrel {chamber/throat/bore/length/etc}, components, OAL, etc) and use SAAMI pressure levels. I do not believe they are biased by worries of law suits or any other horse crapola like that.

 

[Bevan]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Reloading without a chronograph is like driving at night without headlights

 

[Diablo]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

For a starting point on that Rem SAUM, get the Nosler #6 manual.

YOU must use good judgement, recognizing there will be differences in cases, primers, barrel lengths, bore diameters, temperature at time of testing, dimensional differences in chamber, etc.

Lots of possible variations, so YOU work up loads because YOUR rifle is unique.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yeah, I "savvy'. But that does nothing at all to explain why you feel you get "more usable" info from the bullet maker's manuals. ??
</div></div>

Fuzzy...

Sorry my answer didn't satisfy your "pure curiosity".

Better luck next time, maybe?

 

[Clark]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bevan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Reloading without a chronograph is like driving at night without headlights


</div></div>

Estimating pressure from a chronograph is like estimating your best year from your lifetime average income.

Measuring brass growth is like reading your old tax returns.

What does it all mean?
Area under the curve [velocity] is not proportional to peak pressure if the pressure curve shape changes.

Why do you think they call some powders peaky?

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Tripwire: "Fuzzy...Sorry my answer didn't satisfy your "pure curiosity".

No sweat. I just thought maybe you had a rational reason for your belief that maybe we could all benefit from.

 

[aqualung]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Tripwire: "Fuzzy...Sorry my answer didn't satisfy your "pure curiosity".

No sweat. I just thought maybe you had a rational reason for your belief that maybe we could all benefit from. </div></div>

He did. You missed it. He said he builds his loads from the bullet up. If he uses a Speer bullet, then the Speer guide WILL have that exact bullet. The Hodgdon guide MAY not. Ergo the Speer guide has more <span style="font-style: italic">useable</span> information for Tripwire's purposes. Not necessarily anybody else's. If I got 16lb of Varget, you bet your life I would build my loads around that POWDER, so I'd use the Hodgdon guide, it would be more <span style="font-style: italic">useable</span> for that purpose.

That right Tripwire?

N

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Yup....

And I also said I cut to the chase lately and bypass the load manuals in favor of a quickload generated max charge limit via my rifle's chamber/brass. I may in the beginning search published data for a selection of usable powders, then pick from that according to the load density a certain powder might yeild. The rest is just physics.

It's been a long time since I gave a rat's ass about the exact details found in load manuals. I tend to believe what my chrono says my load is doing.....

 

[Magforce]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

The manuals are very good for the most part of course they may print mistakes but the folks building them have all the equipment and time to build up the loads and have for many years. Of course each rifle and your location and weather and etc play into what is the BEST load for your rifle. The manuels are made to get you close. If your getting better with reloading get a chronograph and start building your own loads up, write down what you find and figure out what is best for the rifle you have with the average temp. and conditions in your area.

Trust the manuels they will serve you well when your are starting but always have a couple dont use just one manuel. There are also great websites online just becareful.

 

[sniperaviator]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

I just use the online info from the powder maker's website. I have no paper manual. I've also been know to use the recipe on the bottle. Work my way up for sure.

 

[Fuzzball]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

"He did. You missed it. He said he builds his loads from the bullet up."

He didn't, you missed it.

I din't ask what he did, that was clear; I asked about the logic behind what he does.

"Building" "loads from the bullet up" might make some kind of sense but saying that's what he does conveys nothing but that's what he does. Kinda circular, ain't it?

 

[Tripwire]

Re: Do you believe the reloading manuals???

Circular huh.

Well, you are the fuzzball......