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Elderly man kills home invaders, drops best one liner ever.

Veer can certainly speak for himself, but nothing in any of his posts indicates a bias towards or any advocacy for the thieves.
 
The real take away from this is:

Right or wrong, when guns come into play the only people you should talk to are YOUR lawyer, YOUR doctor, or YOUR clergy. If your state allows Spousal Privilege you can talk to your spouse.

There is no conversation if this interview didn't exist.
 
NO it´s not morally 100 procent clean, quite the opposite I should say.

However when the couple as in them both, jumped the elderly gentleman, the broke his collarbone and hurt him pretty darn good, had I been his counsel I would have pressed that there "propensity" can not spell that word for violence had the old man in a stat where he felt that he was under imminent danger of more violence even though the criminals appeared to be leaving.

One just can not go around gunning down people and then set a second round in them to make sure there dead just beacause they have commited a robbery, and especially not in the back and even more so the finishing off shot. /Chris

Interesting that your location is Malmö, it seems to be a popular place for filming TV series that show up here quite often.

The laws in the USA are quite different than in Europe.
(where from our perspective it seems good people are told they have to be willing easy prey victims to be abused by violent predators as the governments seem to prefer dead sheep over free people defending themselves.)
Here we believe you have the right to be safe and unharmed and secure in your self, home & possessions, & the innate natural right to both have the ability & means as well as use the ability and means to defend against those who would attack you.

In my case, I live in Texas (which I'm sure in Europe is seen by many as a savage outland filled with crazy unevolved people HA!), here, if someone is breaking into your house, you have the right to automatically assume they mean to either kill you or cause you great injury & so you can use deadly force to stop them. Shooting house invaders is considered the right & proper thing to do. Usually several bullets are sent in the direction of each attacker in order to make them stop (especially if it is something tiny like a .22 caliber weapon), since the point is you want to stop their ability to harm you right there and then, not several minutes later after they beat you to death.

Where however this guy goes wrong, is once they are fleeing out of your house, shooting them once they are off your property and are running down the street is usually frowned on and will often get you sent to court over it.
In addition you never ever go around saying you were shooting them extra to make sure they were dead, that is just opening your mouth and inserting dirty footwear so to speak.
 
"She says, 'Don't shoot me, I'm pregnant — I'm going to have a baby,' and I shot her anyway," Greer told KNBC-TV outside his house.

Wow, he should of said nothing.
 
You break into a house, rob someone and assault an 80 y/o man... She made a choice to be part of this (taking on resposibility as the mother) I mean if she wanted to she would of had the "right" to abort the baby, so she chooses to take the baby on a B&E...
 
Wil, I'm interested in why you included doctor.

I will speculate he included doctor in there due to the similar doctor-patient privilege situation to that of a client and lawyer. Even in 100% legally and morally justified defensive shootings, people often times have a hard time coping. The ability to seek medical counsel in these times is of great benefit and is protected under the law. That said, discussing with a lawyer first is probably the course of action I would take because I am not sure if there are certain things a physician is able to disclose under the right circumstances, but for the most part it is protected. Same reason he stated your spouse only if state law allow Spousal privilege (if it doesn't, in theory your spouse could be called to testify against you).
 
It isn't so much that we want to stand on soap boxes, as it is that we want to wedge them into the latrine trench that some of you have dug for yourselves and from which you're preaching this "Death Wish" sermon.

Luckily we have your preaching to Orient our moral compasses. I wonder if any of the people you have trained to kill have ever "executed" anyone.
 
Grahams rule#1 boys...spousal testimony admissable if she wants to give it. Lawyer testimony inadmissable.
 
Grahams rule#1 boys...spousal testimony admissable if she wants to give it. Lawyer testimony inadmissable.

Very true, I forgot to add that in my post. Lawyer, clergy and physician testimonies are all generally inadmissible in cases like this (not always, certain situations).
 
Luckily we have your preaching to Orient our moral compasses. I wonder if any of the people you have trained to kill have ever "executed" anyone.

I train them to shoot accurately to eliminate immediate threats to their lives. I don't train anyone to kill.
 
I wonder if her plea of pregnancy is only another lie, and she in fact is not. How will this change some perception of this incident.
 
Wil, I'm interested in why you included doctor.

I really meant your mental health professional, more so than your physician. Privilege only covers secrets divulged during medical care.

It goes back to the Hippocratic Oath: Whatever, in connection with my professional service, or not in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.
 
I wonder if her plea of pregnancy is only another lie, and she in fact is not. How will this change some perception of this incident.

If you had been shot twice already, had fallen and were presumably looking up at someone aiming a firearm at you to deliver a third shot, you'd probably say anything to avoid the coup de grâce.

Whether or not she was pregnant, I can find no defense for Mr. Greer's third and last shot into her person. I'm not trying to suggest that she wasn't a thief, and I'm not even going to touch upon the fact that he apparently back-shot her twice as she exited the premises. If she was pregnant, I think he's going to get manslaughter, at a bare minimum.
 
If you had been shot twice already, had fallen and were presumably looking up at someone aiming a firearm at you to deliver a third shot, you'd probably say anything to avoid the coup de grâce.

Whether or not she was pregnant, I can find no defense for Mr. Greer's third and last shot into her person. I'm not trying to suggest that she wasn't a thief, and I'm not even going to touch upon the fact that he apparently back-shot her twice as she exited the premises. If she was pregnant, I think he's going to get manslaughter, at a bare minimum.

It wont make him innocent. It might change the perception of a pregnant woman being gunned down in an ally to a multiple offence burglar being gunned down in a ally. I in no way think that "Finishing her off" is the right thing to do. But after looking at some news site comments its a big factor in how people look at the case.
 
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The pics here are labeled as supplied by the police dept. Are they from prior run ins?

Looks like the world is a better place being less one predator of the helpless. Wish he'd gotten both.

That said he appears to have broken the law ridding the world of this trash, and will likely pay.

I wonder if he regrets it now after the fact, of if he's willing to pay the piper.
 
I train them to shoot accurately to eliminate immediate threats to their lives. I don't train anyone to kill.

And its all in how you phrase it. I have been through multiple self defense courses, they train you on what to say afterwards. "I felt threatened" and "I eliminated the threat" are key phrases. You don't shoot to kill, although that's your intent. I wonder how I would feel in this mans place. After being attacked and injured by these people, would you still feel threatened by them after you gunned them down?

Its amazing what a LEO can perceive as a threat. Some cops see video game remotes and backpacks as threats.
Cop Who Fatally Shot Wii Controller-Wielding Teen Had Been Fired Before - Hit & Run : Reason.com
 
Here's the hoods version of the story. Bitch breaks in house, attacks old man with another worthless homie. Bitch gets shot. End of story. And a good one I might add!
 
Every one who breaks into homes knows the risk of breaking in. You cant tell me that these 2 don't know that every home they enter may be there last. In this case it was there last. An 86 year man fighting 2 young people has no other alternative. I do feel bad for the unborn if in fact she was pregnant but there is no bad feelings for ether of the two adults
 
Prosecutors consider charges after burglar killed - SFGate

News is saying that she was not pregnant. Apparently the homeowner was fully justified when they were still in his house, and may be justified in defending himself in the alley because they had already assaulted him, breaking his clavicle, and he was much weaker than the two of them.

I suspect the 80 y.o. will not go to prison, as the perps could easily have turned around and attacked him a minute later. He is old, frail, had his collarbone broken. They were habitual criminals.

The guy, her accomplice, will probably face murder charge due to the felony murder rule. "I pity the fool" D.A who puts the homeowner on trial, and then has to run for re-election. Lots of people, old and young, will give him the thumbs down.
 
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I pity the D.A who puts the homeowner on trial, and then has to run for re-election. Lots of people, old and young, will give him the thumbs down.

And that's what it is truly all about.

Truth, justice and the American way.

I think KYPatriot mentioned otherwise law abiding citizens weary of continued violence and the inability of the justice system to effect change taking matters into their own hands. I wonder if this gentleman said. "Enough! I may spend my last few years in prison, but this trash won't victimize anyone else."

Not that a DA would ever let me on the jury, but I would guarantee at least a hung jury.
 
Because they were leaving means absolutely fuck all. I have a nice scar on my forehead after I backed off from someone who, after starting a fight, cried mercy. I relaxed and then he came back. My mistake. One Friday night in 1999 I got a call to let me know one of my childhood friends was dead after confronting an intruder with a pistol. He let the guy leave, but the intruder returned just minutes later, after the police had been called, and shot my friend in the head. In life and death situations you finish them.

This is what to expect, and if you do not mentally prepare for it and understand it, you may pay for it with your life. Kind, law abiding citizens usually have no clue as to how depraved robbers and perps are. Many of them will kill you for $40, or even less.

Also the more juries let some people off the hook, and the more homeowners/victims are sued by the perps or their families, the more likely victims will be thorough while defending their castle.
 
I wonder if both intruders said they were going to come back with weapons and get rid of the old man?
 
And that's what it is truly all about.

Truth, justice and the American way.

Not that a DA would ever let me on the jury, but I would guarantee at least a hung jury.

And why not per tell? When the attorney for the defendant asks you if someone has the right to kill an intruder. You tell the truth.

Stand up for life and liberty. The right to enjoy the freedoms of life.You believe life above all, above property.

Do you not think that the lawyers are crafting their questions and answers for the audiences and situation? Putting a spin on every question, theory and answer. Telling barefaced lies..er...Lying...er.. portraying the poor criminal as having been disadvantaged as a child. Having to steal because they were dependent upon crack due to no fault of their own.etc.etc.

Get on the jury and let your opinion count for just as much as "liberal".
 
I wonder if both intruders said they were going to come back with weapons and get rid of the old man?

What??? Those criminals lie as easily as they breathe. What does it matter what they say? Usually they say "I am just here for the money, if you don't resist I won't hurt you." That happens a few minutes before the raping and killing starts.
 
And why not per tell?

I live in a military town. Each time I have been called for jury duty the first question from the defense attorney has been if anyone is active or retired military. A positive answer pretty much guarantees you are not selected.
 
This thread might have run its course, but here is my .02:

One of Graham's rules is don't get legal advice from non-lawyers, or the interwebs or something like that.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been asked by more than a few friends and family members, many CCW holders, about what to do/say if and when they get into a shooting. Believe it or not, in the central valley of CA it's quite easy to get a CCW. My 22 year old nephew just got his in Merced County without a "reason" other than personal protection earlier this year. But I digress...

I have always recommended they give a brief "public safety statement". Similar to what cops do, prior to being compelled to give a statement. A synopsis of the facts only. I was here, perp was there, I fired 1, 2, or 7 rounds then moved and fired three more from over there, type of statement. That's it!!! It shows a willingness to cooperate with the investigation as far as trajectory and finding/recovering evidence etc. It helps them put the pieces together with the scene only, and helps them look for any misses that ended up three doors down the street or in the pump house.

I then tell them to say that they acted as a result of fear for their life, or that of a loved one if circumstances dictate. Then they should say they want to speak to their lawyer and that they are expressly invoking their right to remain silent and to legal council and do not consent to additional questioning. Then keep your mouth shut and assume you are being recorded during any future conversations with anyone.

Resist the urge to tell your side of the story and get the catharsis that comes with it.

Again, $.02 from a LEO
 
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This is really not a great situation for the old man or the general population of law-abiding citizens. I can understand the 80-year-old's position, however, the law is the law regardless of how true or right it may or may not be. That being said my concern, since they are still not sure if they will charge the old man, is how will he get past Objective Reasonableness. Of course there are many other variables not told, but if he can prove there was no other way to stop the threat then he is in the clear. However his initial report and excited utterances will probably be admissible making it difficult to back up.

I'm surprised [MENTION=13650]Graham[/MENTION] has not thrown in on this.
 
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This thread might have run its course, but here is my .02:

One of Graham's rules is don't get legal advice from non-lawyers, or the interwebs or something like that.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've been asked by more than a few friends and family members, many CCW holders, about what to do/say if and when they get into a shooting. Believe it or not, in the central valley of CA it's quite easy to get a CCW. My 22 year old nephew just got his in Merced County without a "reason" other than personal protection earlier this year. But I digress...

I have always recommended they give a brief "public safety statement". Similar to what cops do, prior to being compelled to give a statement. A synopsis of the facts only. I was here, perp was there, I fired 1, 2, or 7 rounds then moved and fired three more from over there, type of statement. That's it!!! It shows a willingness to cooperate with the investigation as far as trajectory and finding/recovering evidence etc. It helps them put the pieces together with the scene only, and helps them look for any misses that ended up three doors down the street or in the pump house.

I then tell them to say that they acted as a result of fear for their life, or that of a loved one if circumstances dictate. Then they should say they want to speak to their lawyer and that they are expressly invoking their right to remain silent and to legal council and do not consent to additional questioning. Then keep your mouth shut and assume you are being recorded during any future conversations with anyone.

Resist the urge to tell your side of the story and get the catharsis that comes with it.

Again, $.02 from a LEO

I respectfully but emphatically disagree with your idea of giving a statement to police. It is not your job nor to your advantage to give any statement if facts or anything else after the fact until you have gone over everything with your lawyer. Who cares about looking cooperative. Cops do not have the power to decide whether or not you will be charged, do not have the power to call it a good shoot, and anything you say to them can only hurt you. Settle down, wait for the adrenaline and stress to clear, talk to a lawyer first, and protect yourself from the authorities. Many a good man has said the wrong thing to a cop, or inadvertently in the heat of the moment recalled the scene incorrectly, or simply had the cop write it down wrong. Any of these things could cost you big time. It can only hurt you to tell them anything other than the most basic I was in fear of my life type of one line statement, if that.
 
What??? Those criminals lie as easily as they breathe. What does it matter what they say? Usually they say "I am just here for the money, if you don't resist I won't hurt you." That happens a few minutes before the raping and killing starts.

Pretty sure if i was a fly on the wall thats what the old man heard them say.
 
Spend significant time with warrior, self made, honorable bad ass, physical/emotionally strong class that have made it intotheir 80's and beyond, or those in diminished physical condition and you will find some common threads in them.

They have been strong individuals their entire life and as they move into a time in their life when they cant make things happen through sheer force of will, most end feeling a profound sense of frustration tied to loss of control as they age.

One of the few places of refuge for those looking for a simpler time in their life is home. To have that violently violated, repeatedly, most of those folks are likely to take action many of us would not understand nor support. Spend time with folks that have gotten to that age and you will see how they filter their environment AND how they respond to it. Many will find this gentlemans comments poorly worded or that his thought process during the incident to be low on the morality curve based on how the perceive the world. I see a man trying to protect a way of life he has spent his lifetime building and responding in a way that he felt was his only option given the circumstances. His words strike me a fear driven bravado more than anything.

With luck many here will live to reach that time in thier life. Just dont judge others actions using your current life filters alone.
 
Not me. This guy was dead-ass WRONG and his actions have put each and every one of us in the spotlight, like it or not.

I'm a strong believer that we don't need more gun laws (actually we could do with a lot less) but when some wet-brain like this comes along you can rest assured that we're going to see more clamor for added laws. Let this idiot feel the full impact of the law on his wrinkled ass.

Perhaps he should have been a little more prepared to deal with the intruders while they were still "intruding".

Anyone want to put money on whether or not his Attorney claims "diminished capacity" due to his age?

Yep, this putts a bad on the rest of us. I would imagine he's in deep kimchi and will be for years.

Cheers,

George
 
I respectfully but emphatically disagree with your idea of giving a statement to police. It is not your job nor to your advantage to give any statement if facts or anything else after the fact until you have gone over everything with your lawyer. Who cares about looking cooperative. Cops do not have the power to decide whether or not you will be charged, do not have the power to call it a good shoot, and anything you say to them can only hurt you. Settle down, wait for the adrenaline and stress to clear, talk to a lawyer first, and protect yourself from the authorities. Many a good man has said the wrong thing to a cop, or inadvertently in the heat of the moment recalled the scene incorrectly, or simply had the cop write it down wrong. Any of these things could cost you big time. It can only hurt you to tell them anything other than the most basic I was in fear of my life type of one line statement, if that.


I think this video is all about what you are telling us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
 
You have no obligation to talk to police, period. They do, given probable cause, have the right to detain you until your lawyer arrives. In some cases a simple "I was in fear for my life and defended myself" may, repeat MAY, allow you to avoid any lengthy detainment at which point you immediately get an attorney and then let HIM/HER do the talking for you. The totality of the circumstances will also play a role in whether or not you are "detained".

If you are read your rights, don't say a freaking word----PERIOD. The police now consider you "In Custody".
 
I think this thread is a good study in human nature. The reactions to the event and his words here are telling. The problem this event highlights is much deeper than whether or not his actions were legal, and the heart of the issue has far reaching consequences for our society. This man will be prosecuted because the law criminalizes his behavior as he described it. But if we look at this case and all we take from it is "you can't do that" and don't look deeper then we are doomed to see much more of this and worse.

The issue is, we are living in a time of the destruction of the rule of law. That is the real cause of this event. Human nature being what it is means we will always have criminals. But men here agreed with each other to form laws, a government to administer those laws, and to delegate power to those authorities to ensure certain people, like the two criminals in this case, cannot use force to take what they want from others. That happy state, where men interact with each other according to mutually agreed rules rather than force, is the rule of law, and exists only as long as men have the perception that it exists.

The rule of law functions and remains as long as the authorities do what they have been delegated power from the people to do. But when that government uses that power to its own ends, to enrich and take more power from the people than they intended, to further their own selfish aims rather than the work of the people, people begin to lose faith in the rule of law and feel they must take matters into their own hands.

Consider this man. While it is possible he is just a man with no more regard for human life than the low life he shot, I doubt it. I suspect rather that he is a man that is tired of the system continually working against him rather than for him. A man embittered by the complete failure of government at large to uphold their end of the social contract. A man who watches lawlessness abound while he does his part paying taxes that are used against him as much as for him. A man who has followed the law and appealed to the authorities for help before to no effect.

When men perceive, rightly or wrongly, that the rule of law no longer exists they will invariably resort to their own measures to protect their rights and property. That leads to what we have here, a man who used his own judgment to solve the problem with no further regard to the social contract. This is a problem, whether or not his actions are morally justified, because even if this man chooses wisely the next may not, and we are right back to the anarchy and the rule of force that rule of law is intended to prevent.

When confidence in our elected representatives hovers in the single digits, a third of the country believes the president should be impeached, the majority of people believe even the judiciary is hyper partisan, and there is DAILY outrage at the behavior of the police then it is easy to conclude that the perception of the rule of law is eroding before our eyes. The only thing remarkable about this story is that it doesn't happen more often, and my prediction is that it certainly will happen more often. Anarchy, like a vacuum, will not naturally persist. People will have order, whether in contract with their neighbors through government, or through the force of their own will with weapon in hand.

Matthew 24:12... basically, as a result of the abundance of lawlessness, the ability of many people to express charity towards others will evaporate.
It doesn't matter whether the lawlessness was on purpose or an act of incompetence. The consequences of lawlessness if not meted out, only produce further lawlessness.