IMR 4064 vs varget for 308

ChemE1975

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Hello. I am about to begin reloading for a 1:12 20" 308 bolt action. I plan to shoot 155 grain scenars or berger hybrid and use lapua brass.

Here is my question...I am lucky enough to have a few pounds of varget, and also lucky enough to have 8lb jogs of IMR4064 available locally.

To start, I'll likely just use one powder. Is either of these powders easier to work with? Are there advantages to either over the other in terms of ballistics, temp sensitivity, etc? Is one thought to load/shoot better for the 20" 308 155 load I'm planning?

I appreciate any advice and experience.
 
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Rhyno

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Varget is going time be more temp stable. But both are great powders for the 308.

Rumor is FGMM uses 4064, and the new military "sniper" rounds use it to.
 

MLC

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Temp stability is not going to be an issue with 4064.
I prefer it to Varget in 308. YMMV
IMR 4895 is pretty great with 155's as well.
I had good accuracy and 3000FPS from a 26" barrel.
175's(178) and 4064 out of my 20" were a knot cutting combination
Any chance you're shooting a REm 700 LTR?
 

Darkside-Six

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    you're going to get mixed reviews on both. both are good powders and will give you a great load. just pick one and do some load development, you'll be set.
     
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    Rhyno

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    H4895 is good to, especially for the lighter pills and shorter barrels.

    I used it for 223, and 308. Shot 110 vmaxs and 178 amaxs well out of my 308. And 68 grain bthp fine in my 223. (Though benchmark was better)
     

    ChemE1975

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    i was set on using varget, but with components being so limited, and knowing the 4064 was a good 308 powder and seeing a few 8lb jugs in front of me...well, it got me thinking.
     

    Deadshot2

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    You won't be unhappy with the IMR-4064. A few years ago I got on the "Varget Bandwagon" and it was a good powder. Funny thing though is that when Varget disappeared from the market I stocked up on what I thought was "second best", IMR-4064. I saw great accuracy and more than enough speed to get the job done. I also didn't have to stuff the case as full and had less "crunch" when seating bullets.

    Recently I tried some 2000MR and it's even better for metering. Also settles in a case well so no drop tube required for full case loads. Amazing speeds with no pressure signs at all in my .308 using Lapua brass.

    In the end, I seriously doubt that I'll buy any more Varget if for no other reason than it's a bitch to get a uniform load when using my progressive press. The 4064 and now 2000MR work so much better in my XL-650 powder dispenser.
     

    Jungle George

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    I guess it's a "run what ya brung" situation right now. 4064 is pretty easy (and at a reasonable price) to get and Varget is nonexistent. I've been using both as well as RL15 for a long time. It's just a pain in the ass to have to set-up for different powders all the time, so I'm sticking with IMR4064. :eek:

    Cheers,

    George
     

    ChemE1975

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    from looking in reloading manuals, it seems 4064 is well suited for 155 and above?

    maybe the easy answer for me is to stop trying to figure it out, go and buy some 4064 and have all bases covered.
     

    Deadshot2

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    It's just a pain in the ass to have to set-up for different powders all the time, so I'm sticking with IMR4064. :eek:

    Cheers,

    George

    It definitely is a pain in the ass so I've not only decided that I'm going with one powder, keeping it WELL stocked, but with ONE bullet as well. I figure that the same bullet that performs well for me on the targets, will kill anything I'm going to kill. I expect to be well stocked with Hornady 178 gr A-max real soon and no more farting around working around bunch of other components. I'm going to spend my time shooting rather than "scavenging" and then having to start over for every combination I have to cobble up.
     

    ChemE1975

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    It definitely is a pain in the ass so I've not only decided that I'm going with one powder, keeping it WELL stocked, but with ONE bullet as well. I figure that the same bullet that performs well for me on the targets, will kill anything I'm going to kill. I expect to be well stocked with Hornady 178 gr A-max real soon and no more farting around working around bunch of other components. I'm going to spend my time shooting rather than "scavenging" and then having to start over for every combination I have to cobble up.


    I LIKE this idea. It is what I am trying to do, and thus the real theme behind my question. I could stock up on the 4064 right now vs working up a varget load with a few pounds on hand.
     

    M40_A1

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    ...vs working up a varget load with a few pounds on hand.

    Yeah, then you have to find "the load" again for the next batch number.

    I have enough prmers for a while, as much powder as I can legally have, and now I am buying as many bullets as I can afford and find each month until I have enough to send with the primers I have. I try to balance what I have, component wise, to make complete rounds. No sense in having 10k bullets if you only have 5k primers, or 5k bullets if you have 10k primers, I decided. If the plug ever gets pulled again, I don't want to find myself wanting just because I bought too much of one component.
     

    Recreational Shooter WA

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    I shot Varget in the .308 until it became unavailable. So, like many others, I switched to what was readily available. I've found IMR 4064 to work very well and haven't had any trouble finding it.

    You won't be disappointed with 4064.
     

    Alaska

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    Hello. I am about to begin reloading for a 1:12 20" 308 bolt action. I plan to shoot 155 grain scenars or berger hybrid and use lapua brass.

    Here is my question...I am lucky enough to have a few pounds of varget, and also lucky enough to have 8lb jogs of IMR4064 available locally.

    To start, I'll likely just use one powder. Is either of these powders easier to work with? Are there advantages to either over the other in terms of ballistics, temp sensitivity, etc? Is one thought to load/shoot better for the 20" 308 155 load I'm planning?

    I appreciate any advice and experience.


    The military went from Reloader 15 to IMR 4064 because RL 15 was not stable at Afghanistan temps. with the 175 MK. Also the loads were hot and made for bolt actions and gas guns were introduced are brought back in service.

    Also Fed who makes the ammo uses IMR 4064 in their Gold Medal Match Ammo in 308 Win.

    FC military brass
    41.745 of IMR 4064
    fed 210 Match Primer
    175 Sierra MK
     
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    JRM83

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    Any ideas about temp stability? I still get confused re ball vs stick, single vs double base etc

    Ball powder is generally more temperature sensitive than stick powder. I think the holy grail of 308 powders would be a ball powder with the qualities of Varget (temperature insensitivity, accuracy, velocity, etc).
     

    clrems77

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    Will be shot from an AIAE mkIII.

    I also use an AI AE MK3 and have used both. With the availability of 4064 more plentiful at the time, I was able to get load to push 2900 fps shooting Hornady 168 Amax. 45.7 grains in a Hornady match case seating the bullet 2.180 from Ojive. 1/4 inch group when I do my part!
     

    Pinecone

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    AFAIK is very similar to BL(C)2, which is what the military 7.62 ammunition was loaded with.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    I use IMR-4064 for .308 and .30-'06, 150-180gr bullets. My .308/175SMK load is 42.2gr of IMR-4064 in Rem cases, 2.815" COAL. Supersonic out of an M1A (SA 'Loaded') at 1Kyd. Match primer, I use either Fed FGMM 210M or CCI BR-2. My Garand load is Win Brass, WLR primer, HDY 150gr FMJBT W/C, and 50.0gr of IMR-4064.

    Greg
     
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    jbell

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    IMR 4064 fan here as well, and I have been for the last 15-20 years. I was loading it before the Varget and never gained anything with Varget other than more pressure signs. From my experience the 4064 will get more velocity (if you use a drop tube to leave room for bullets) with less pressure signs than Varget. However the 4064 pressure comes on faster. I have a load @ my max 175SMK running 2720~ with little to no pressure signs, but just a few tenths more powder the pressure comes on quick.
     

    Fatelvis

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    Any ideas about temp stability? I still get confused re ball vs stick, single vs double base etc
    Glen Zediker states that 748 is a wonderful powder/very accurate, but gets "psycotic" as the temps rise. Doesn't sound like it's temp stable, according to him.
     

    Melsy

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    +1 for 4064. I have about 8 lbs of it for 223 and 308. Thats the powder i use for them. I have imr 4320, varget, H380 and 3031 on reserve. My main load was 178 amax with 44.4 grain varget cci large rifle primers lc cases trimmed to 2.008 and bullet seated way out there at 2.31 on the ogive. LONG troat r700. this was good for sub MOA at 300 yards.
     

    dmike

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    I have imr 4320, varget, H380 and 3031 on reserve. My main load was 178 amax with 44.4 grain varget cci large rifle primers lc cases trimmed to 2.008 and bullet seated way out there at 2.31 on the ogive. LONG troat r700. this was good for sub MOA at 300 yards.
    any good 3031 recipes for the 700?
     

    BCP

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    Glen Zediker states that 748 is a wonderful powder/very accurate, but gets "psycotic" as the temps rise. Doesn't sound like it's temp stable, according to him.

    748 is not temp stable. I could never get the same accuracy with it as I can with a lot of other powders I've used either. Did several workups with it in 223 and 308 w/o any real luck too. Want to say my load for 175s was 42 grains in military brass at mag length.
     

    dmike

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    39.5 grains 3031 in LC, FC or Lapua with a 168 or 175 grain bullet @ 2.8".

    Thanks BCP. Funny, 39.5 has been best for me so far too (fc, tula lrm, 2.8) but it's slow in my 16 so I've been trying to find a higher node.

    OP sorry to get off topic thanks for a good thread
     

    Road_Clam

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    I've used 4064, excellent 308 powder BUT ya better have patietents dumping 4064, it meters miserable, the stuff is like matchsticks :( . Me personally according to my data have equally good precision and consistancy running Win 748. My most trusted 748 load I used to qualify for my clubs 600 yd range this past weekend. The deciding factor for me is the fact 748 is a ball powder and meters extremly easy and precise. Makes loading 70 rounds of 308 match painless. Not so with 4064..
     
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    Aimsmall55

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    I too thought varget was the "end all be all" of .308 powder. Well, like some said, shortages made me start messing around with power pro 2000 and IMR 4064.

    This is all I needed to know...... I was sold first time out testing on the 4064



     

    ChemE1975

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    awesome replies. thank you. i love seeing those targets AimSmall...nice shooting!
     

    Deadshot2

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    I too thought varget was the "end all be all" of .308 powder. Well, like some said, shortages made me start messing around with power pro 2000 and IMR 4064.

    If you like the IMR-4064 you may LOVE the PP 2000MR.

    Here's one group I found in a load workup with this powder. Only three shots from the second load in the sequence but I think it shows promise :)

    ry%3D400

    175 gr SMK
    2000MR 46.8 gr
    2.830 OAL
    2689.7 fps.

    The 2000MR is a fine powder that meters like a dream and settles into the case without the need for a drop tube like Varget and 4064 often does. I like the speed I saw in this development session. According to others there's more to be had with accuracy too.
     
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    Alaska

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    Like others said Federal uses IMR 4064 in their Gold Medal Match ammo.
    Now the military uses IMR 4064 in their M118LR ammo at 41.475 with 175 Sierra MK with Fed 210M primer in FC military brass.

    Reloader 15 was discontinued in the military.
    Varget is still a excellent powder along with IMR 4064 in the 308 Win.

    AR Comp powder should do well in the 308 Win.
     
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    308Gunner

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    I tried 41.7gr of 4064 and it out shot my Varget load. I will be buying more when my supplie of Varget runs out that might be awhile but it will run out.
     

    color_me_gone

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    Temp stability is not going to be an issue with 4064.
    I prefer it to Varget in 308. YMMV
    IMR 4895 is pretty great with 155's as well.
    I had good accuracy and 3000FPS from a 26" barrel.
    175's(178) and 4064 out of my 20" were a knot cutting combination
    Any chance you're shooting a REm 700 LTR?
    Not having much luck with the 178 ELD-X in the Remington TAC 21 20" 1 in 10 using 42 and 42.5 GR of 4064 with the 178GR. I am however having good results with 43.5GR of 4064 with when shooting the 168GR. It has been suggested I try the 43.5 - 44 GR of 4064 with the 178 GR. Anyone that can give some input would be great. These red pasty's are .750". I do not have a chronograph so I have no clue what my MV's are. I just need to shoot good groups at 100 so I can feel good about it not being the gun if and when I miss as greater distances. I'm hoping this statement means ( knot cutting combination) [ all in the same hole ] at 100 yards with ~44 gr of IMR-4064 as I have read elsewhere. Sure wish when people made these claims they show photo's of their actual accomplishments.
     

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    color_me_gone

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    Well, according to this I'm using the correct powder and primers but the wrong bullet. I stayed away from the Sierra 175 GR HPBTMK because I want the same or better ballistics but wanted expansion in the end. I guess I just need to find the correct powder load. I did load up a few with 43.5 GR and 44.0 GR. We shall see how these two loads work. I see the charge weight is 41.745 GR and that is slightly over minimum charge of 40 GR where these bullet would only be traveling about 2,500 FPS.

    Am I reading this correctly and my assumptions correct?
     

    color_me_gone

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    Well, according to this I'm using the correct powder and primers but the wrong bullet. I stayed away from the Sierra 175 GR HPBTMK because I want the same or better ballistics but wanted expansion in the end. I guess I just need to find the correct powder load. I did load up a few with 43.5 GR and 44.0 GR. We shall see how these two loads work. I see the charge weight is 41.745 GR and that is slightly over minimum charge of 40 GR where these bullet would only be traveling about 2,500 FPS.

    Am I reading this correctly and my assumptions correct? Have you actually loaded this cartridge and tested it for accuracy? Do you have any photo's to post?
     

    Rebelirons

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    Varget and 4064 are both great in 308. It’s gonna be which one your rifle likes best. Yes there are other powders that people will recommend but availability being what it is right now, those two are just as good as any. Do a little load work and you’ll be fine
     

    st1650

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    These days it's more like whatever you can find ... luckily we can get varget pretty easily up here but I had both very good loads out of 4064 and varget for the 175s although I prefer varget.