Didn't the rifle weigh about 17-18 pounds?
- Thread starter Sean the Nailer
- Start date
Didn't the rifle weigh about 17-18 pounds?
I would bet a bit looking at the sights on the original that the zero may well have been further. We must remember that unlike most rifles of this era it was specifically built for killing soldiers of a standing army not hunting. The further you can shoot in such a situation the better. It is easy in closer engagements to hold under. If he was firing 100gr charges that bullet would have been moving out, too.
I would also look at Google earth using their historical imagery viewer. You can find some seriously old imagery there. If the USG was doing large scale projects I would bet there are aerials taken for the project that have been released and incorporated into the Google viewer.
Already have the contact info for the Corps of Engineers Historians in that district... on my list to do today, in fact!
I need maps and images (aerials are possible, but not that likely) before TVA... so 1920's at latest.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Unlikely but I have seen aerials on there from the 1930's at least in some areas.
I would make a set of sights at the same dimensions as the original and then see what they do. Can always be changed to something else.
I have 'over-tall' sights on it temporarily. Because I can file them and then get differentials.
When we built the replica, we didn't have access to the original to measure. So put on a set of 'junk' sights that I'll file and drift and play with. Once it shoots, I'll put the 'authentic' sights on it.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Yes, I recall you said that.
Try now… must be an upgrade bug.
That did it. Thank you. Awesome likeness.
Have you shot the rifle yet? I check this regularly hoping to see how it is going.
Back to the Hungarian guy - he has bought a .451 Volunteer rifle and here is shooting 900 yards with it - well worth the watch. Dud wind calls notwithstanding, he manages what looks like 2 moa or slightly better off his elbows at 900 - with a 170 year old rifle.
Back to the Hungarian guy - he has bought a .451 Volunteer rifle and here is shooting 900 yards with it - well worth the watch. Dud wind calls notwithstanding, he manages what looks like 2 moa or slightly better off his elbows at 900 - with a 170 year old rifle.
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HI RPN...
Have not shot it yet... Snow set in.
But have a tremendous amount of new data and information that is going to go into a peer-reviewed paper in the spring.
At this point, due to my commitments to the rifle owner and the owner of the land where Hinson's Cave sits (and so as not to spoil the results that will be published)... I am not going to go into any details of recent research on an open forum. They (and Col. McKenney) will get to see the results and draft paper first when I get it completed and get the shooting side of it done. There are a couple of publications that are already identified for the publication.
But I am definitely looking forward to shooting it when the snow clears up. And, in fact, already have plans to make a big steel "Yankee" torso target with some brass buttons on it... to help with the experimental history side of things.
Stay tuned!
Cheers, Sirhr
PS... I am a quintessential Yankee. I eat pie for breakfast. So I have no qualms about calling it a Yankee Target!
I always thought a Yankee was a quickie for one.
Also, looking forward to seeing what happens with the paper. This thread has me searching for a good .451 shooter. UK auction houses look like the best places, given the nutbar price paid locally for one last week.
Also, looking forward to seeing what happens with the paper. This thread has me searching for a good .451 shooter. UK auction houses look like the best places, given the nutbar price paid locally for one last week.
I can't wait to see the data and hear how it all goes.
PR3256 WHITWORTH RIFLE
Fullstock with checkered wrist and forearm. American walnut with a satin finish. Length of stock is 48 1/4" length with a 1 3/4" drop. 13 1/4" trigger pull. Barrel is .451 caliber hexagonal bore. Hammer forged browned barrel 36". Tapered round - 1 1/16" at breech to 13/16" at muzzle...
www.dixiegunworks.com
These Pedersoli's are fantastic! Price is definitely up... but it is a shooter! You might be able to get one from a different vendor for less. But I trust DGW!!
Sirhr
There are originals for sale fairly regularly though, so I'll wait. Holts current auction has a couple of .58 and a .730, but a .451 is what I need for anything past 300 yards.
Got some casting done today for the Hinson rifle.... new barrel arrived at gunsmith. So needed the Tennessee-style long section minie's c. 1860...
Used a steel Brooks Nose Pore mold, custom made in .50. Mold took some getting used to, but once figured out, it produces very nice boolits!
More to come soon!
Sirhr
What alloy? 20:1 or 30:1?
Mould might need to be a little hotter. Some 2 stroke oil on top of th blocks will help with lead smear. Just don’t let it get into the cavities, lol.
Mould might need to be a little hotter. Some 2 stroke oil on top of th blocks will help with lead smear. Just don’t let it get into the cavities, lol.
Pure lead.
I think I could do some beeswax. Main problem was keeping mold hot, as you note. Might set up a hotplate ffor it. Also, keeping mold clean was a challenge. These will be OK for purpose. But I'm with you. I think I can do better.
Sirhr
I use a metal coffee can with a cut out to slide the mould into. It sets on top of the hot plate essentially making a mould oven.
Got the rifle back with the new barrel fitted. Let the games begin!!
Twist rate in the first barrel Was wrong. Got to be the first person to measure the original and so got an exact number.
Cheers, Sirhr
What's the twist rate?
Thanks for the update. I finally got my dad to read the book last month.
Very cool! Will the same bullet still work?
Answering That is the whole point of the exercise! Sirhr
So I am almost done with the 4th or 5th time through One-Mans War, and I have been thinking about your project. How is it coming?
I have gotten a couple of shooting sessions between farm work and rain and too damn hot to shoot.
Yes, good revelations!
Sirhr
I'm stoked for this project, well done @sirhrmechanic! My dad and I read the book, very well done. I took about 4-5 pages of notes because I felt like that time period had so many parallels to ours. The author did a great job of advocating for the South without making excuses for slavery, but showed that it was a much more complicated issue with nuance...like most things.
What stood out to me was that guerilla warfare among a civilian population tends to lead to atrocities on both sides. War is hell and anyone that thinks a civil war here would be a quick or easy thing is delusional.
Any idea when the article will be coming out Sir?
What stood out to me was that guerilla warfare among a civilian population tends to lead to atrocities on both sides. War is hell and anyone that thinks a civil war here would be a quick or easy thing is delusional.
Any idea when the article will be coming out Sir?
Just started the book, which I only found because of this thread so thanks for that. Also, @sirhrmechanic that is a damn fine looking rifle.
No, but I was scheduled to present it at the Mass Arms Collector meeting in Sturbridge in Oct., but got bumped to Dec. As for publication.... Got to finish before both!
I need another couple of range days which, fortunately, become more readily-available with fall here.
Cheers,
Sirhr
I have talked to the structured barrel guys a few years ago and got to check out a Tubb gun with one of their barrels. That's some interesting stuff right there
Hey, you want to drive over from Maine and do some shooting... you are welcome! Steaks and cigars as a bonus, buddy! PM me.
Cheers,
SIrhr
I'm hoping all is well and the project has been doing great. Excited to see new pictures and experiences with that gorgeous rifle.
Pretty close… been ‘not shooting at the farm due to pending deer season and a load of bucks hanging out.’
Also broken ram rod (now fixed). At least this one didn't go through my hand.
Pretty sure paper will be done c. Thanksgiving and off to potential publisher(s.).
Sirhr
Also broken ram rod (now fixed). At least this one didn't go through my hand.
Pretty sure paper will be done c. Thanksgiving and off to potential publisher(s.).
Sirhr
@sirhrmechanic do you have a black powder season, maybe you could put a notch in the barrel.
All I can say is DAMN! Reading this gave me goose bumps. Excellent commentary by all and fantastic job Sirhr.
My family has deep roots in that area (1780s) and I grew up not far from the Land Between the Lakes. My dad and older family members would talk about Hinson off and on growing up, and my dad, brothers, and I read Col Mckinney's book together. I stayed at Piney a few years ago and drove up to see the sign but it was down. Looks like they put it back up from your pics. I'll have to run up there when I go home this Christmas.
When and where will you present your paper?
Any idea of what the mils of the rear sight and front sight are on the original rifle?
Will be interesting to see the capabilities of the rifle you made.
My observations.
Short version : Hinson's shots were 80% fieldcraft and 20% weapon system. The shots were likely from elevated positions at around 50-100 feet above the river and from 50 to 300 yards. That would place him about 20-70 feet above the top deck of a gunboat.
Longer version:
I've hunted all up and down the Cumberland river and seen towboats/barges and large boats going by. At Vicksburg is the actual gunboat USS Cairo and I've walked around it and on it thinking about Hinson.
The outside bends of the rivers are where there are cliffs and the channel is deepest there and the boat has to stay in the deepest part of the channel and edge to the inside to be in slower water. In most places that would have been a 100 yard shot from a 90 degree angle to the gunboats. The CSA Guns park North of Dover is a good example of a location. But not what I would pick.
The cliffs off Hickman Creek Road just North of the Guns or the section across the Cumberland off Jackson Cemetery are also good places to explore. At these locations there are some much better spots where there is a terrain spur going down into where a bend straightens out. That's where I would setup.
You can look right down the barges coming upstream and see both sides of the wheelhouse on the towboat. For much of the towboat approach there is no relative motion at all. Those shots begin at 600 yards and run down to 250 yards before the barge begins to present an angle and then drop further as the barge goes by and then upstream.
My family has deep roots in that area (1780s) and I grew up not far from the Land Between the Lakes. My dad and older family members would talk about Hinson off and on growing up, and my dad, brothers, and I read Col Mckinney's book together. I stayed at Piney a few years ago and drove up to see the sign but it was down. Looks like they put it back up from your pics. I'll have to run up there when I go home this Christmas.
When and where will you present your paper?
Any idea of what the mils of the rear sight and front sight are on the original rifle?
Will be interesting to see the capabilities of the rifle you made.
My observations.
Short version : Hinson's shots were 80% fieldcraft and 20% weapon system. The shots were likely from elevated positions at around 50-100 feet above the river and from 50 to 300 yards. That would place him about 20-70 feet above the top deck of a gunboat.
Longer version:
I've hunted all up and down the Cumberland river and seen towboats/barges and large boats going by. At Vicksburg is the actual gunboat USS Cairo and I've walked around it and on it thinking about Hinson.
The outside bends of the rivers are where there are cliffs and the channel is deepest there and the boat has to stay in the deepest part of the channel and edge to the inside to be in slower water. In most places that would have been a 100 yard shot from a 90 degree angle to the gunboats. The CSA Guns park North of Dover is a good example of a location. But not what I would pick.
The cliffs off Hickman Creek Road just North of the Guns or the section across the Cumberland off Jackson Cemetery are also good places to explore. At these locations there are some much better spots where there is a terrain spur going down into where a bend straightens out. That's where I would setup.
You can look right down the barges coming upstream and see both sides of the wheelhouse on the towboat. For much of the towboat approach there is no relative motion at all. Those shots begin at 600 yards and run down to 250 yards before the barge begins to present an angle and then drop further as the barge goes by and then upstream.
Hinson was well known in Central Tennessee. I recall my dad and his dad and other men discussing him in the early 1970s while we twisted tobacco. A lot of Oral History was passed around every fall during tobacco prep. And prior events like the Massacre of 1622, Kings Mountain, Cherokee Civil War, Trail of Tears, US Civil War - and even Cromwell and Culloden - were discussed as if they happened the day before. You still see the Scottish Flag in places. No doubt it was much the same across much of Tennessee and into the Virginia/North Carolina as most people were descended from the First Families who migrated West from the Coast - and intermarried with their cousins, Cherokee, and high browns - and many still visited back and forth. So no doubt that Oral history was shared.
Hard to say whom the movie was about. The Civil War divided families in many ways and the Union occupation forces and Southern Partisans were often no better than thugs. Many of the latter just settled grudges or hid behind a Gray uniform to steal from unarmed folk. As I recall Hinson killed a few bad Partisans himself. The story is probably universal.
I know half my family owned upwards of 500 slaves and several thousand acres of bottomland then became Night Riders. We still have the books for what was grown, sold, and bought. Others farmed the hilltops and joined the Union. And later built a college for blacks and donated land for primary schools. Its a very complex story to tell and one that has not really been told. We can be angry that the COE/TVA owns our family land now and rents it out to us, and in the same breath be proud of the schools we built.
Shenandoah was written by James Lee Barret who grew up in North Carolina and went to college in South Carolina. He was an Eagle Scout and joined the Marines. He wrote other screenplays including Undefeated and Green Berets. And then the Greatest Story Ever Told. And then Smokey and the Bandit. No doubt he was well versed in both formal and oral history. He would have had tons of material.
Good BIO here.
Barrett, James Lee - South Carolina Encyclopedia
Screenwriter. Once described as “perhaps the most prolific hyphenate (writer-producer) in Hollywood,” James Lee Barrett was born on November 19, 1929, in Charlotte, North Carolina, the son of James Hamlin Barrett and Anne Blake. He grew up in Anderson, South Carolina. Following the early death...
www.scencyclopedia.org
Damn I love Snipers Hide... Spent over an hour on the phone today with OldLoser above... He is neither.
Amazing conversation that not only added to my research but shows that the 'oral traditions' among folks who grew up in that area are still alive and well. He added some definite insights and confirmed some things that my archival, experimental and 'on the ground' research was indicating.
This place has THE best people on the Internet when it comes to anything military-history. Once again, proving The Vintage section is the place to be on SH.
Thanks, sir! Was great talking to you. Check your PM.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Amazing conversation that not only added to my research but shows that the 'oral traditions' among folks who grew up in that area are still alive and well. He added some definite insights and confirmed some things that my archival, experimental and 'on the ground' research was indicating.
This place has THE best people on the Internet when it comes to anything military-history. Once again, proving The Vintage section is the place to be on SH.
Thanks, sir! Was great talking to you. Check your PM.
Cheers,
Sirhr
I know you have been intentionally vague for understandable reasons but am I reading right that you got to shoot THE actual Hinson rifle or purely finger it to get the barrel twist?
Regardless cant wait for final report.
DT
Regardless cant wait for final report.
DT
It is not shootable... the erosion is too bad and the lock is damaged. It saw some hard use 'after' the war when its value/story/provenance was less-well-appreciated. But, yes, we did get the twist rate. Which is all-important!
Cheers,
Sirhr
@sirhrmechanic , how's the project going, any word on your write-up?
