M60 vs M240 vs M249

Forgetful Coyote

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Obviously Im not in the military and therefore have no experience with machine guns. But for those who have, between the M60, M240, and M249, what was the most accurate machine gun the US has available right now? And if you had to carry a machine gun, and knew there was gonna be some distance involved(500-1000yd), what would you pick? I would think the M60 or M240 would dominate at the longer ranges but theyre both quite a bit heavier than the SAW so... what would you choose?

I know its a dumb question, but I was just curious as Ive read that Ohio Ordnance`s M240 will hold 1 MOA or better and was wondering if thats true? And if it is, could/do the military M240`s hold 1 MOA?

Thanks.
 

Papa Zero Three

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I've carried all 3 over the years. If it was a perfect world and all 3 were brand new,the 60 would be my choice. It's 4-5 lbs lighter than the 240 aka mag 58 and about the same weight as the 240L. A M60 in good condition and well maintained is hard to beat IMO. Problem was almost all of them were old and beat to hell and held together with bailing wire and a prayer. Each pig had its own personality, you had to baby them and keep them really clean to run reliably. It was/is a good gun that was just allowed to go too long and only saw small incremental upgrades/changes that didn't address the root of the problem and that was most of them in the field were anywhere from 10-20 years old and beat to shit.

The 240 has been around a long time, if you spent any time in other countries, it was and is known as the MAG 58 and used to have wood furniture on it. Heavy as hell, super fast cyclic rate but it took a beating. Not a bad weapon system overall, at least the modern ones. It had some growing pains but they got worked out but it's still heavy as hell at 27lbs empty.

The 249 is kind of the same story, used in other countries first before the US adopted it. It was a good band-aid to the 60s that would occasionally go down as squads now had a belt feed gun organic to them and could lay down suppressive and covering fire without the need of a dedicated weapons squad in support. It too has had some growing pains and there have been/are different versions. But it's 5.56 vs the 7.62 that the other two shoot. That has plusses and minuses depending on your situation/circumstances and mission requirements.

Overall, all 3 systems have their issues, maintenance, wearing out and parts being the bane of all of them. With that said, I'd prefer a new M60 over the other two, especially if I had to hump it and wanted 7.62 but thats me.

I don't know if they hold 1 MOA or not as most people who use them aren't concerned what MOA their gun shoots, they just want them to shoot reliably and to qualify with them when they have to, its a suppressive fire weapon and adjusting fire is part of life and one of the reasons why we use tracers on belt fed weapons.
 
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kraigWY

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I only have experience using the M-60, its an highly accurate and reliable gun.

As far as accuracy goes, machine guns aren't suppose to be pin point weapons, they are area weapons. The barrels (or at least the M-60, don't know for sure about the other two) have a crown designed to shoot an oval pattern.

When I was running the AK NG Marksmanship Unit part of my job was supporting the state's machine gun teams. To create a more accurate gun, I took the flash suppressor off the barrel, cut the barrel back 1/4 inch, re-crowned it, and found it would shoot like a rifle. You can also tighten up the gun by flattening the rivets, it makes it more accurate but less reliable.

But like I said, I don't know about the other two guns.
 

ZLBubba

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Like others, I prefer the M-60, especially in the Mk 43 config. I used it a couple times on joint missions with Navy EOD and I really liked it. Much more portable and pointable for me.

The 240B is a hell of a weapon; if I'm on a vehicle and don't have an M2, that's definitely my choice. And make no mistake, a 240B on a tripod with a T&E can do some serious damage. I'm not a huge fan of the 249. We always seemed to have lemons, that or our armorers just couldn't keep them maintained and reliable. I was used to the reliability of the 240, and thus running into issues with a 249 made me biased against it. Then again, I've got a buddy who swears by the 249. To each his own.
 

SPDSNYPR

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Of the three, I thought the 240 was the most accurate. Of the three that I had experience with (M60E3, M249 SAW, and M240G), I would prefer to carry and use the M60E3. I thought the 240 was too big and heavy, and I thought the rate of fire was too high. The SAW was fine, but heavy for the caliber and intended use (doing assaults with is was a bitch). If course, this was way back in the day - all have developed past when I used them (except the 60). What I shot and what they have now could be drastically different.
 

Switchblade

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I carried the pig(Lola) for a while. She was my go to in the Marine's. In the CANG, LolaII was my competition gun that had all rebuilt parts, a little massaging and could shoot 10:10 1" x 1" squares at 25M either single or double taps, or burn the line up out to 600M...literally, me and her burned down the 600M range one day in competition then the next year burned down the entire hillside, earning ME the name SGT Pyro(burned down a hilltop at Ft San Luis CAMA the next year with a heavy smoke grenade, again making the name SGT Pyro infamous on one more CANG installation).
In Korea my truck was outfitted with 'Eun Whang'(M60D) and a Mk19(Nice Girl, named after the local ville hooker).
The M60 is without a doubt the best ever GPMG made and is still being modernized and further perfected as a GPMG that has not yet reached the top of it's R&D(it is very close though)
 

Anvil_X

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Neither... the MK48 destroys them all.
lol concur. Had to hump the 240B all over the damn mountains before the Mk48 came out..... it may have a 'shorter range' than a 240B because of the shorter barrel, but the 48 is still damn accurate enough to suppress dudes out to 1,000 m.
If I was a truck dismount, and didn't have to hump it very far, I'd be okay with a 240B. But the day the conex loaded those beautiful girls rolled into my C-COP, I swear to god the clouds parted and the angels sang on high.

dropped our 240s and 249s in favor of the 48, and never looked back.
 

bogeybrown

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I was always partial to the pig (the E3 version) because for a few extra pounds you were lightyears ahead of the SAW. I made it my mission to get ONE damn SAW to be reliable and don't think I ever made it. The 240s seemed to be very reliable, and the barrels held up to sustained fire without the need to switch every 100-200rds, but it is HEAVY to be humping around.

I have yet to shoot anything I liked more than the Mk19 (although I'm sure I'd convert in a second if I get my hands on the minigun) ;)
 

0311 Hesco

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My first pump in Iraq was a nasty one and I thank God I was the one with the saw. I have only carried that out of the three but I was happy I could borrow mags. There were a handful of times that I needed mags thrown my way. The interchangeability of rounds with the rest of the squad was invaluable. My little saw was new (army hand me down) before the pump and it only jammed twice on me in the first few months, but I attest that to it being newer. After I had it broken in, it was a dream. It was a little on the heavy side, and especially when your sling breaks early in the deployment. I don't think you could have traded me any other weapon for that thing. I liked the firepower it had, and I enjoyed wielding it. Everyone hated the thing because of how heavy it was, ( had the '80s version with long barrel, non-collapsible stock, and plastic fore grip. ) but you couldn't pull me away from it. Some of us swore the saws were more accurate than the 16s we had, but no real way to prove it.
 

Switchblade

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Lola and Eun Wang... Nice.
On exercises, when Eun Whang and Nice Girl did their thing it was quite a show. Nice Girl would open up with a nice six round burst, then as the grenades were landing and exploding, Eun Whang would be laying down a wicked amount of suppressive lead. Or as I would call it for such a small patch of beaten zone, 'a little scunion'.
I was suprised no one in that unit(Ground Ambulance) had used this technique on the range when I set my truck up. The CO, 1SG, and Supply were curious why I wanted TWO weapons systems in one top mount on a truck. The day we went to the range and I showed them, all four of our trucks were outfitted that way as soon as we got back to the unit. Like I said, the resulting amount of downrange chaos is just plain spectacular. To see FOUR TRUCKS doing this all at once, OMFGMFBBQ!
 

leprechaun

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I have carried and jumped with the 60 and SAW.I carried both and am partial to the 60 due to caliber. We got the first issued SAW's in the Army and we didn't even have belted ammo for the first range time /qual.
I never has a reliability issue with either. Both have their niches and having my druthers would take the 60 first.

I can only hope the current models have improved on what I used and I really don't think the 60 needed replaced. Just updated and kept up with the times so to speak
 

fdkay

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The only thing that I hated about the M60 was the fact that the bipod was attached to the barrel. A rather stupid design as it made barrel changes more difficult. The bipod wasn't exactly light either, and you end up carrying at least two (one on the gun one on the spare barrel).
 

Mr.RonGilbert

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I have carried and jumped with the 60 and SAW.I carried both and am partial to the 60 due to caliber. We got the first issued SAW's in the Army and we didn't even have belted ammo for the first range time /qual.
I never has a reliability issue with either. Both have their niches and having my druthers would take the 60 first.

I can only hope the current models have improved on what I used and I really don't think the 60 needed replaced. Just updated and kept up with the times so to speak


Same here, I was a 60 guy when the SAWs showed up. I loved my 60 so was more than a little biased. There were feed issues early on with the SAWs which I believe was due to them just needing to be fed, not 100% on that and it was a long time ago. I wanted to switch to the 203 mainly because I was sick of lugging the pig everywhere. Man that 60 was fun to shoot.
 

Kirkd

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+1 fir the M60. Its light and shoots less rounds per minute than the M240G, whick is a plus if you humping the damn thing. The 7.62 MG openng fire just had effect the the 5.56 saw diesnt have. Just my opinion
 

Delta4-3

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So there have been two references to humping a 240G in this thread. How are you managing that?
 

Mr.RonGilbert

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I carried the pig(Lola) for a while. She was my go to in the Marine's. In the CANG, LolaII was my competition gun that had all rebuilt parts, a little massaging and could shoot 10:10 1" x 1" squares at 25M either single or double taps, or burn the line up out to 600M...literally, me and her burned down the 600M range one day in competition then the next year burned down the entire hillside, earning ME the name SGT Pyro(burned down a hilltop at Ft San Luis CAMA the next year with a heavy smoke grenade, again making the name SGT Pyro infamous on one more CANG installation).
In Korea my truck was outfitted with 'Eun Whang'(M60D) and a Mk19(Nice Girl, named after the local ville hooker).
The M60 is without a doubt the best ever GPMG made and is still being modernized and further perfected as a GPMG that has not yet reached the top of it's R&D(it is very close though)
Tipped a cold one your way Blade.

I got my ass chewed for starting fires on the range just to jack with the shooters on the wrong wind side. Didn't burn any hills down though.
 

paramarine

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Used both the M60 and the M60E3 in the Corps and was a SAW gunner (M249) for a time.

I liked the M60 over the E3 even though it was heavier. The E3 had problems with the bolts wearing down too quickly.

The SAW was great. We had one on each STA Team in 2/8 and 2/6. For a three-man team (Sniper, A-Sniper/RTO, SAW Gunner) it was the perfect weapon to help get you out of trouble if you needed it.

Never fired an M240. We didn't have them in the Old Corps. ;-)
 

Delta4-3

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What I was thinking is that the 240g has spade grips and the 240B has the butstock. Am I mistaken or are those retro'd G's?


With an Infantry modification kit and a sling, like everyone else in the world who calls it the MAG 58.



 

0311 Hesco

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I think one of the hotel models had spade grips, but we never saw them. I'll bet some helicopter crews had those. Bravos are the Army had in our area and they had heat shields. Our Golfs were the same without the heat shields and maybe some other mods.
 

VJJPunisher

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ya'll are thinkin of the 240c,the 240 charlie is actually a track coax, no spade grip, just a steel tit like plate, cable attached to charging handle, no picatinny sight rail. used on Bradleys

<a href="http://s767.photobucket.com/user/jayjaypunisher/media/coex_zps3b619fc4.png.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/jayjaypunisher/coex_zps3b619fc4.png" border="0" alt=" photo coex_zps3b619fc4.png"/></a>


I've humped all three, its too hard to choose since they all fill a different void and have equal pros and cons. can't fuck with the 240's rate of fire, though blocky, long, and a bitch to hump all day. The 60 was a dream to carry, very accurate due to its slow rate of fire comparitively speaking in the MG world. The saw is fast and accurate but WAY to finicky, and the bipods are hot steamy shit. If you made me choose id hafta go with the 60, but that is probably because of the nostalgia side, i was the MG'er in mech platoons for my first two years carryin a 60 and those were some of the best times in my time as an armed nail technician at mall of america
 

Papa Zero Three

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ya'll are thinkin of the 240c,the 240 charlie is actually a track coax, no spade grip, just a steel tit like plate, cable attached to charging handle, no picatinny sight rail. used on Bradleys
No, the 240 D and the 240E1 model was/is used on airframes with spade grips however they created an "egress" kit(Infantry mod kit) that put a buttstock,pistolgrip,barrel handle and a rear/front sight on it so aircrews could take and use the weapon with them if they had to ditch the airframe. The model you posted above is the 240C and is used on Bradleys, LAVs and M1 Abrams as pictured.



 

Anvil_X

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One cool thing I almost forgot about: The early 240 models have a rotating Gas Key. you could adjust the rate of fire from normal to... let's call it "insane" (I forget what it was, the last time I ran into one was on my Tank in 2005). I imagine those of you that dismounted them wouldn't want the "insane" rate of fire, but that setting does compliment the 10,000 round 7.62 loadout of an M1A1.
Just gotta make sure you tighten down the coax mount if you want any decent accuracy from it, if not, hell, you didn't even have to do a "Z" pattern.
 

0311 Hesco

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[MENTION=76737]Papa Zero Three[/MENTION],
Yes that's it! Thanks. I remember looking at one of the 240 manuals and there were a bunch of variations for the 240. By far the best medium machine gun for a crew. I still prefer the 249.
va jay jay, yea the bipods do suck, I broke two sets!
 

Delta4-3

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That makes sense, thank you. We just had the B's, but the gunners on the ch47's and Blackhawks had what we called 240G's, with the spade grips. I'm just glad I didn't Cary any of them, tho I did have to jump the 240 and AG kit when I was a cherry. That sucks.

There are several versions, I think you are thinking of the E1 models that can/were retro fitted from spade to buttstock with the Infantry kit on airframes.
 

Anvil_X

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That makes sense, thank you. We just had the B's, but the gunners on the ch47's and Blackhawks had what we called 240G's, with the spade grips. I'm just glad I didn't Cary any of them, tho I did have to jump the 240 and AG kit when I was a cherry. That sucks.
All of the Jumps while I was in the 173rd were Hollywood (They did an airfield seizure exercise four months after I left, go figure), so I never found out how to jump with MGs. would you mind elaborating?
 

Delta4-3

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All of the Jumps while I was in the 173rd were Hollywood (They did an airfield seizure exercise four months after I left, go figure), so I never found out how to jump with MGs. would you mind elaborating?
It goes in a case similar to the 1950 weapons case and is jettisoned with your ruck. I however, have managed to not jettison it in time, which is unpleasant. In most units, your team leader will load you up with tons of crap to jump with on your first jumps. I wasn't even a gunner, but jumped the 240 and kit (separate jumps) and a metric ton of ACIP batteries, on my first few jumps. The very first night in division I had the 240, several batteries and was right behind the Brigade commander, a full bird. When it was time to stand up and hook up, I was leaning over holding myself up with the static line. I literally could not stand up without it due to all the gear. He bitched at me for several minutes to "stand up like a man" until it was time to jump. Yeah, he was jumping with just an assault pack and no weapon. As soon as I hit the ground I took off for the rally point because I didn't want him finding me.
When I was a team leader I felt bad for my privates remembering that and just had them jump 10-12 ACIP batteries and the AG kit. ;)
 

Delta4-3

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To piggy back on my last post, Ive seen guys jump the javelin and mortar base plates. Thank God that my job did not entail either.
After changing units and carrying an M24, we never jumped combat loaded much, but went to the DZ several days in advance to "recon" it, so I never jumped with it or the M110. I would assume you jump them in a 1950 just like an M4, but don't know. How does that work Papa Zero Three?
 

Papa Zero Three

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If you're jumping static line, in the conventional Army, it typically goes in a 1950. We used to jump M21/24's in 1950s and not lower them but after a few barrels got bent that stopped. Halo, you can rig dual weapons one on each side of the container or more recently, something I helped develop, the Center Mounted Weapon Harness which allows you to jump them horizontally across your torso for both Static line and HALO. With the CMWH you can jump everything from a M4 ,sniper weapon system,MG,to an AT 4, mortar tube/Gustaf, etc.


 

Delta4-3

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I just proofread my last, and it should have said "lower" instead of jettison".
 

Delta4-3

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If you're jumping static line, in the conventional Army, it typically goes in a 1950. We used to jump M21/24's in 1950s and not lower them but after a few barrels got bent that stopped. Halo, you can rig dual weapons one on each side of the container or more recently, something I helped develop, the Center Mounted Weapon Harness which allows you to jump them horizontally across your torso for both Static line and HALO. With the CMWH you can jump everything from a M4 ,sniper weapon system,MG,to an AT 4, mortar tube/Gustaf, etc.


Pretty cool, I like it.
 

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It goes in a case similar to the 1950 weapons case and is jettisoned with your ruck. I however, have managed to not jettison it in time, which is unpleasant. In most units, your team leader will load you up with tons of crap to jump with on your first jumps. I wasn't even a gunner, but jumped the 240 and kit (separate jumps) and a metric ton of ACIP batteries, on my first few jumps. The very first night in division I had the 240, several batteries and was right behind the Brigade commander, a full bird. When it was time to stand up and hook up, I was leaning over holding myself up with the static line. I literally could not stand up without it due to all the gear. He bitched at me for several minutes to "stand up like a man" until it was time to jump. Yeah, he was jumping with just an assault pack and no weapon. As soon as I hit the ground I took off for the rally point because I didn't want him finding me.
When I was a team leader I felt bad for my privates remembering that and just had them jump 10-12 ACIP batteries and the AG kit. ;)
Good thing you took off, I don't imagine your TL would have liked that ass-chewing!
 

sharac

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What is the ratio of getting wind taken out and suffering severe pains from impact on your favorite piece of humping gear vs graceful/stylish back to earth moment?

Just looking at that tube in front of chest hurts...
 

Papa Zero Three

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What is the ratio of getting wind taken out and suffering severe pains from impact on your favorite piece of humping gear vs graceful/stylish back to earth moment?

Just looking at that tube in front of chest hurts...
It's a square/RAM air parachute system, if you can fly and land your canopy, the landings are no more strenuous than stepping off of the walking escalator at the airport.
 

ArmyJerry

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M 60 in my experience is pretty good, the M 14 with a M16 A1 (full auto) does pretty good too. Don't have experience with these new European weapons other than qualifying in all the Warsaw pact individual and crew served weapons as well as all the West German individual weapons of my time, I would still stick to the US weapon systems of my time for Big War.

One more thing for the bird shite soldiers,,,,real soldiers carry what they need on their backs to take care of business.
 
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EricCartmann

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no experience with a M240... i had a virgin M249.. it was awesome! M60 was even more awesome, bigger caliber and not much more weight, it was light and easy to carry, can even be shot from the hip (just like in Rambo). Only thing I did not like about the M60 was how the bipod was attached the barrel and spare-barrel. Back then though, there were no free float rails... and not Gucci Optics, we had iron sites and that's it (unlike all you Operators on Snipers Hide have).

 

Anvil_X

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no experience with a M240... i had a virgin M249.. it was awesome! M60 was even more awesome, bigger caliber and not much more weight, it was light and easy to carry, can even be shot from the hip (just like in Rambo). Only thing I did not like about the M60 was how the bipod was attached the barrel and spare-barrel. Back then though, there were no free float rails... and not Gucci Optics, we had iron sites and that's it (unlike all you Operators on Snipers Hide have).


Dude, all them lasers and shit came off the second I got my 240B. fuckin useless. they gave me a CQBS, which is a fancy thermal sight, but I used it dismounted from the MG to scan with, and just used my NODs to watch the tracers when shit hit the fan.

Can't beat iron sights and tracers on a MG.

I will say this though, tracers work both ways. that part sucks.
 

kmussack

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A long time ago I had some experience with the M60 GPMG.


As has been already mentioned. If the gun isn't worn out it runs well.
 

TNT

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It's a square/RAM air parachute system, if you can fly and land your canopy, the landings are no more strenuous than stepping off of the walking escalator at the airport.
Said like it's a cakewalk. You guys are better and tougher men than I - seriously, hats off to you. I see that rig and just thank my lucky stars I'm not trying to drop with that. I have just about 50 sport jumps to my name now and wasn't really standing them up well until about jump 15. I also already get enough leg strap bruises and discomfort from jumping in nothing but a suit, sneakers, and a helmet under a 210 sq ft canopy with a .95 wing loading, so I'm probably floating down even slower than you guys are when you're loaded down on what I assume are about 300-330s? Takes some serious skill and determination to be jumping with all that crap strapped on more than once. Major league badass factor going there.
 

Delta4-3

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M 60 in my experience is pretty good, the M 14 with a M16 A1 (full auto) does pretty good too. Don't have experience with these new European weapons other than qualifying in all the Warsaw pact individual and crew served weapons as well as all the West German individual weapons of my time, I would still stick to the US weapon systems of my time for Big War.

One more thing for the bird shite soldiers,,,,real soldiers carry what they need on their backs to take care of business.
Negative, real soldiers carry what they need, and jump out of an airplane with it as far away from support as possible. Super soldiers do their PLF on the rally point, or in the pond on the north side of Sicily DZ.
 

Bolt_Overide

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M 60 in my experience is pretty good, the M 14 with a M16 A1 (full auto) does pretty good too. Don't have experience with these new European weapons other than qualifying in all the Warsaw pact individual and crew served weapons as well as all the West German individual weapons of my time, I would still stick to the US weapon systems of my time for Big War.

One more thing for the bird shite soldiers,,,,real soldiers carry what they need on their backs to take care of business.

Talk to me after youve jumped a 60, spare barrel, tripod, T&E, 800 rounds, a sidearm with 3 mags, 4 quarts of water, etc etc..., then humped 20 klicks after, at a pace to be done by dawn.