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F T/R Competition New F-Class Division

I see alot of posts with the word easier. I don't every remember saying that F Class was too hard and needs to be made easier. Infact the class that I threw out there, would be HARDER to score well with compared to a dedicated open gun, with a $1000+ stock that's fits perfectly in your $1500 front rest and $400 rear bag.

Who cares about scoring well? I want to win, regardless of the score. I've won matches with my custom Open rifle after dropping 40 points over a two day match. I've also lost matches by 1X, after tie-ing on a single dropped point. Running a custom Open rifle does not automatically translate to wins, or even good scores. If you think that is so, you're deluded.
 
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Who cares about scoring well? I want to win, regardless of the score. I've won matches with my custom Open rifle after dropping 40 points over a two day match. I've also lost matches by 1X, after tie-ing on a single dropped point. Running a custom Open rifle does not automatically translate to wins, or even good scores. If you think that is so, you're deluded.

And if you think the top open guys are running full custom guns with top of the line front rests and rear bag, just because you think they like shiny things, you're delusional.
 
I let this threads stew for a couple of days and came back and read it and wow what an eye opener.

There's been some mention of ego in this thread, aimed at sling and coat shooters. What I'm seeing seems, to be blunt, tacticool shooters who want to show up with their tacticool rigs and win matches, thus feeling good about their tacticool equipment and skillz. The fact that there already are tacticool matches that they can go to with other interested tacticool shooters seems insufficient for their needs.

Perhaps their egos will not allow them to actually enjoy having access to that rare commodity, the thousand yard range, unless they're winning?

The Buddhists would call this "chasing a rainbow in the hopes of wearing it like a coat".

If, on the other hand, what I'm hearing is "I spent a lot of money on this rifle and it has a brake and I can't use it at your damned Fclass matches and it pisses me off" then you really didn't do enough research before you bought your rifle, did you? The same can be said for a choice of calibers such as the vaunted 260 which would put you in Open shooting against benchrest prone (and again not winning). Perhaps more research is in order before crapping money next time. In any event, it's not the fault of someone else for not accommodating you and your choices, is it?

I think perhaps it's worthy of consideration that you take off the break, which you really shouldn't need any way, and go shoot the rifle and learn to read the wind, because it isn't that what this is really about anyway?

I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.
 
I let this threads stew for a couple of days and came back and read it and wow what an eye opener.

There's been some mention of ego in this thread, aimed at sling and coat shooters. What I'm seeing seems, to be blunt, tacticool shooters who want to show up with their tacticool rigs and win matches, thus feeling good about their tacticool equipment and skillz. The fact that there already are tacticool matches that they can go to with other interested tacticool shooters seems insufficient for their needs.

Perhaps their egos will not allow them to actually enjoy having access to that rare commodity, the thousand yard range, unless they're winning?

The Buddhists would call this "chasing a rainbow in the hopes of wearing it like a coat".

If, on the other hand, what I'm hearing is "I spent a lot of money on this rifle and it has a brake and I can't use it at your damned Fclass matches and it pisses me off" then you really didn't do enough research before you bought your rifle, did you? The same can be said for a choice of calibers such as the vaunted 260 which would put you in Open shooting against benchrest prone (and again not winning). Perhaps more research is in order before crapping money next time. In any event, it's not the fault of someone else for not accommodating you and your choices, is it?

I think perhaps it's worthy of consideration that you take off the break, which you really shouldn't need any way, and go shoot the rifle and learn to read the wind, because it isn't that what this is really about anyway?

I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.

I like that. :cool:
 
I let this threads stew for a couple of days and came back and read it and wow what an eye opener.

There's been some mention of ego in this thread, aimed at sling and coat shooters. What I'm seeing seems, to be blunt, tacticool shooters who want to show up with their tacticool rigs and win matches, thus feeling good about their tacticool equipment and skillz. The fact that there already are tacticool matches that they can go to with other interested tacticool shooters seems insufficient for their needs.

Perhaps their egos will not allow them to actually enjoy having access to that rare commodity, the thousand yard range, unless they're winning?

The Buddhists would call this "chasing a rainbow in the hopes of wearing it like a coat".

If, on the other hand, what I'm hearing is "I spent a lot of money on this rifle and it has a brake and I can't use it at your damned Fclass matches and it pisses me off" then you really didn't do enough research before you bought your rifle, did you? The same can be said for a choice of calibers such as the vaunted 260 which would put you in Open shooting against benchrest prone (and again not winning). Perhaps more research is in order before crapping money next time. In any event, it's not the fault of someone else for not accommodating you and your choices, is it?

I think perhaps it's worthy of consideration that you take off the break, which you really shouldn't need any way, and go shoot the rifle and learn to read the wind, because it isn't that what this is really about anyway?

I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.

I don't have to win to have fun, and you are missing the entire point. Lots of people with tactical rifles show up at local matches. What is the harm in giving them a separate class? Maybe there aren't any tactical rifle matches in near the shooters, maybe they use the rifle for hunting as well, maybe they whatever, it doesn't matter. What matters is that they are there and show up, having a division that let's them compete against each other makes sense. I'm still not seeing any actually reason being given as to why this is a bad thing other than I guess some of you don't like it. Seriously, just give one solid argument.
 
I let this threads stew for a couple of days and came back and read it and wow what an eye opener.

There's been some mention of ego in this thread, aimed at sling and coat shooters. What I'm seeing seems, to be blunt, tacticool shooters who want to show up with their tacticool rigs and win matches, thus feeling good about their tacticool equipment and skillz. The fact that there already are tacticool matches that they can go to with other interested tacticool shooters seems insufficient for their needs.

Perhaps their egos will not allow them to actually enjoy having access to that rare commodity, the thousand yard range, unless they're winning?

The Buddhists would call this "chasing a rainbow in the hopes of wearing it like a coat".

If, on the other hand, what I'm hearing is "I spent a lot of money on this rifle and it has a brake and I can't use it at your damned Fclass matches and it pisses me off" then you really didn't do enough research before you bought your rifle, did you? The same can be said for a choice of calibers such as the vaunted 260 which would put you in Open shooting against benchrest prone (and again not winning). Perhaps more research is in order before crapping money next time. In any event, it's not the fault of someone else for not accommodating you and your choices, is it?

I think perhaps it's worthy of consideration that you take off the break, which you really shouldn't need any way, and go shoot the rifle and learn to read the wind, because it isn't that what this is really about anyway?

I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.

I'll use the IDPA/USPSA analogy again. This would be like telling production shooters that they shouldn't have to win to have fun...just shoot in open.

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I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.

With this logic, we should make the Match Directors job easier and get rid of TR division. Just have F-Class; one division. True the TR rifles would be at a disadvantage, but hey they're getting to show up and pull the trigger. In fact, why even keep score. You know what score you shot, why make the match director combine them and list them out. Your just there to compete vs yourself right.

Again I love the thought process I continue to see. If I started a thread about how I wanted to shoot a bipoded 7mm in TR, I'd get a ton of responses on how that's against the rules and how much advantage I'd have with cutting the wind etc. But couldn't I say the same thing to the TR guys for complaining about having to compete with me "I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you." Now I show up to that same match, I don't want to shoot my bipoded gun against a portable bench rested gun, I'm just an egotistical baby, that wants to win. Just interesting how the two arguments are on two different spectrums, but made by the same people. I'll ask you this SWRichmond, if it's about getting out there, pull the trigger and having fun. Then why is it a bad thing to have a division that's going to open the sport up to more shooters to allow them to get out there, pull the trigger and have fun.

Oh and SWRichmond, I don't think I've read one negative comment about F-Class guys (other then the fact that some of them on this thread seem to be complete d*cks), but I am starting to see common posts putting down the "tacticool" guys. Lets look at the two sports. F-Class guys show up with impractical rifles (heavy, long, triggers weighting in the ounces), with their even heavier rests in their carry cases. Walk it all up to their flat concreted shooting spots (multiple trips, because they have too much stuff and it's too heavy for one), get everything all set up, so their spotting scope is nice and perfect, rounds are in the right spot. Now it's time to shoot. Your shooting at known distances, known targets, you get sighter shots, you have flags all over the range (whether you use them or not) and you get pretty much all the time in the world to shoot and you have someone in the pit telling you exactly where everyone of your bullets is hitting. Now the lame tacticool crowd. They shoot a more practical rifle, at sometimes unknown targets of unknown size, at unknown distance (sometimes even having to judge yardage by using their reticle). They have to shoot from different shooting positions (many of them are uncomfortable and less then desirable), they don't get any practice rounds, it's all done on the clock and last but not least, they actually have to move. Which means they have to actually shoot with their heart rate up. Just something you may want to think about next time you want to continually put down these individuals.

I'd love to see the top five tactical guys show up and shoot an F-Class match with their tac rifles, then the top five open guys have to show up to a tactical match and shoot their open rifles. Wouldn't prove anything, but still would be entertaining.
 
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With this logic, we should make the Match Directors job easier and get rid of TR division. Just have F-Class; one division. True the TR rifles would be at a disadvantage, but hey they're getting to show up and pull the trigger.

Again I love the thought process I continue to see. If I started a thread about how I wanted to shoot a bipoded 7mm in TR, I'd get a ton of responses on how that's against the rules and how much advantage I'd have with cutting the wind etc. But couldn't I say the same thing to the TR guys for complaining about having to compete with me "I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you." Now I show up to that same match, I don't want to shoot my bipoded gun against a portable bench rested gun, I'm just an egotistical baby, that wants to win. Just interesting how the two arguments are on two different spectrums, but made by the same people. I'll ask you this SWRichmond, if it's about getting out there, pull the trigger and having fun. Then why is it a bad thing to have a division that's going to open the sport up to more shooters to allow them to get out there, pull the trigger and have fun.

Oh and SWRichmond, I don't think I've read one negative comment about F-Class guys (other then the fact that some of them on this thread seem to be complete d*cks), but I am starting to see common posts putting down the "tacticool" guys. Lets look at the two sports. F-Class guys show up with impractical rifles (heavy and long), with their even heavier rests in their locked carry case. Walk it all up to their flat concreted shooting spots (multiple trips, because they have too much stuff and it's too heavy for one), get everything all set up, so their spotting scope is nice and perfect, rounds are in the right spot. Now it's time to shoot. Your shooting at known distances, know targets, you get sighter shots, you have flags all over the range (whether you use them or not) and you get pretty much all the time in the world to shoot. Now the lame tacticool crowd. They shoot a more practical rifle, at sometimes unknown targets of unknown size, at unknown distance (sometimes even having to judge yardage by using their reticle). They have to shoot from different shooting positions (many of them are uncomfortable and less then desirable), they don't get any practice rounds, it's all done on the clock and last but not least, they actually have to move. Which means they have to actually shoot with their heart rate up. Just something you may want to think about next time you want to continually put down these individuals.

Meh. You are right on point for the first half of this post, but let's not turn this into a pissing match. F-class shooters do things tactical competitors can't and vice versa.

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I started shooting F-class in 2008 at a local range here in MS. When I attended that first match my desire was to maximize my rifle skills, to make me a better hunter. The rifle that I started out with wasn't really suited for 600 yd F-class, but it was what I had at the time and it got me involved in the shooting sports; not counting hunting and shooting on my personal range. Being a competitive person, I quickly learned that I needed to build a rifle that was a little better suited to actually match-up with what I was competing against in the Open class. I didn't really want a full blown Open rig, instead I opted for a Surgeon action, Jewell trigger, Manners T2 stock, Bartlein 6mm barrel and Sinclair folding bi-pod. I had the gun assembled by a great smith who I shoot F-class with and have gone through a few barrels and a lot of good times with great people since.

I included the above, to say this...getting new shooters involved is what it's all about. I know F-class is growing by leaps and bounds in most parts of the country, while other shooting disciplines seem to be dwindling. The successful gun club/range is one who welcomes new shooters and does what is necessary to give the people what they want. A few years ago, I decided to try a range about 2 hrs from my home, to expand my shooting horizons. Palo Alto in Donaldsonville, LA is a club that has put together a very successful business model when it comes to customer/shooter satisfaction. Not only do they run a very successful F-class schedule on the first weekend of the month, but Rick and crew also run Field Precision Rifle matches the second weekend with equal success. As a matter of fact, many guys and gals that shoot F-open and TR on the first weekend come again on the second weekend and shoot a practice match along with the shooters who show to shoot FPR. There is no bickering about who is running a break, can or whatever....Rick and crew try their best to squad like shooters together and it works like a charm. FPR matches can work at any club providing there is a weekend available to schedule such matches. For clubs with minimal turnout for Open and TR, it might just mean adding an additional relay.

I prefer to participate in the FPR matches on a personal level, because it matches my shooting style and rifle set-up. I do, however still compete in F-open. If I shoot well against that crowd, then it's just icing on the cake! We all need to do whatever we can as gun owners to make sure we keep the gun heritage/2A of this country alive and well.
 
Oh and SWRichmond, I don't think I've read one negative comment about F-Class guys (other then the fact that some of them on this thread seem to be complete d*cks), but I am starting to see common posts putting down the "tacticool" guys. Lets look at the two sports. F-Class guys show up with impractical rifles (heavy, long, triggers weighting in the ounces), with their even heavier rests in their carry cases. Walk it all up to their flat concreted shooting spots (multiple trips, because they have too much stuff and it's too heavy for one), get everything all set up, so their spotting scope is nice and perfect, rounds are in the right spot. Now it's time to shoot. Your shooting at known distances, known targets, you get sighter shots, you have flags all over the range (whether you use them or not) and you get pretty much all the time in the world to shoot and you have someone in the pit telling you exactly where everyone of your bullets is hitting. Now the lame tacticool crowd. They shoot a more practical rifle, at sometimes unknown targets of unknown size, at unknown distance (sometimes even having to judge yardage by using their reticle). They have to shoot from different shooting positions (many of them are uncomfortable and less then desirable), they don't get any practice rounds, it's all done on the clock and last but not least, they actually have to move. Which means they have to actually shoot with their heart rate up. Just something you may want to think about next time you want to continually put down these individuals.

I'd love to see the top five tactical guys show up and shoot an F-Class match with their tac rifles, then the top five open guys have to show up to a tactical match and shoot their open rifles. Wouldn't prove anything, but still would be entertaining.

I'm afraid you are making the common mistake of confusing shooting matches(any sort) with some sort of military/post-apocolypse training. It's just a hobby. The chances are infinitesimally small that whichever skill-set you develop in your chosen game will ever be used for anything other than the game. If you enjoy some particular style of shooting, develop the skill and be proud of it. But don't kid yourself - your neighbor down the street is equally proud of his cabinet full of bowling trophies, and you both have skills that are equally useful in the real world.
 
F-Class guys show up with impractical rifles (heavy, long, triggers weighting in the ounces)

Impractical for what? They are no more impractical for their intended purpose than an M107. They are in fact about ideal for their intended purpose. A crescent wrench is not impractical until you try to use it as a hammer. I would counter that for 1000 yard shooting that a "tactical" (I hate that word) rig is highly impractical unless you make the target bigger.

AND, you keep typing on and on asking for something THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN APPROVED! Do you not get that. The NRA has already approved the concept. Go to the thread and read it.
 
Have you ever shot a .308 using a ski type bipod? Do you have any experience using a Farley rest?

Your comments lead me to believe you're talking out your ass...

Yeah, you're right. I don't know shit. :)
 
I'm afraid you are making the common mistake of confusing shooting matches(any sort) with some sort of military/post-apocolypse training. It's just a hobby. The chances are infinitesimally small that whichever skill-set you develop in your chosen game will ever be used for anything other than the game. If you enjoy some particular style of shooting, develop the skill and be proud of it. But don't kid yourself - your neighbor down the street is equally proud of his cabinet full of bowling trophies, and you both have skills that are equally useful in the real world.

I frequently get asked "so what are you training for shooting at 1000 yards?" To which I invariably reply "winning matches."

Imagine that.


I am very fond of saying that F-class is not sniping; our targets do not shoot back, don't move and they are at well known distances. I would hate to have to schlep my F-TR rifle much more than from the SUV to the firing line. I make 4 trips to the line to get ready for firing. I don't have an ejector on my bolt, I have to pluck the fired case from it and it never touches the ground.

The big difference is that I have to shoot 15 or 20 shots consecutively at a very small target and I can only shoot as fast as the puller and scorer do their job, and I have nobody to help me read the wind changes. If I drop a shot I lose points and I can't make them up. When sniping, if the shooter misses, no big deal, he just makes the correction his spotter calls to him and he takes another shot.

:evil_grin:
 
And for the tactical shooters; it's called a brake, not a break. It's designed to brake (slow down) the recoil impulse (and piss off the folks on either side of you and also reveal your position to the enemy,) it's not a break in the barrel which could be detrimental to performance.
 
I'm afraid you are making the common mistake of confusing shooting matches(any sort) with some sort of military/post-apocolypse training. It's just a hobby. The chances are infinitesimally small that whichever skill-set you develop in your chosen game will ever be used for anything other than the game. If you enjoy some particular style of shooting, develop the skill and be proud of it. But don't kid yourself - your neighbor down the street is equally proud of his cabinet full of bowling trophies, and you both have skills that are equally useful in the real world.

LOL....... no. And the fact that you refer to shooting as a 'hobby' tells me that you don't, and won't, get it.
 
I'm afraid you are making the common mistake of confusing shooting matches(any sort) with some sort of military/post-apocolypse training. It's just a hobby. The chances are infinitesimally small that whichever skill-set you develop in your chosen game will ever be used for anything other than the game. If you enjoy some particular style of shooting, develop the skill and be proud of it. But don't kid yourself - your neighbor down the street is equally proud of his cabinet full of bowling trophies, and you both have skills that are equally useful in the real world.

I agree that many people do it as part of a fantasy, but there is a tangible benefit to hunters. I would also argue that serious competitors take it further than a hobby and it becomes a lifestyle. Same with bodybuilders, bikers, and musicians.

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I let this threads stew for a couple of days and came back and read it and wow what an eye opener.

There's been some mention of ego in this thread, aimed at sling and coat shooters. What I'm seeing seems, to be blunt, tacticool shooters who want to show up with their tacticool rigs and win matches, thus feeling good about their tacticool equipment and skillz. The fact that there already are tacticool matches that they can go to with other interested tacticool shooters seems insufficient for their needs.

Perhaps their egos will not allow them to actually enjoy having access to that rare commodity, the thousand yard range, unless they're winning?

The Buddhists would call this "chasing a rainbow in the hopes of wearing it like a coat".

If, on the other hand, what I'm hearing is "I spent a lot of money on this rifle and it has a brake and I can't use it at your damned Fclass matches and it pisses me off" then you really didn't do enough research before you bought your rifle, did you? The same can be said for a choice of calibers such as the vaunted 260 which would put you in Open shooting against benchrest prone (and again not winning). Perhaps more research is in order before crapping money next time. In any event, it's not the fault of someone else for not accommodating you and your choices, is it?

I think perhaps it's worthy of consideration that you take off the break, which you really shouldn't need any way, and go shoot the rifle and learn to read the wind, because it isn't that what this is really about anyway?

I truly and sincerely pity you guys who have to win to have fun. God help you.

It is kinda funny to look at stuff on this website, if you look up what tactical guys want for barrel length, they will all say 20 inches and that there is no reason to go any longer. The 20 inch barrel is just as accurate as any other length barrel. And when you read this thread and they don't want to shoot F-Class because all the F-Class guys have such a long barrel and dedicated F-Class rifle. The ego's get all bent because they think they can hit a piece of steel at 1000 yards after they get 10 warm up shots.
 
LOL....... no. And the fact that you refer to shooting as a 'hobby' tells me that you don't, and won't, get it.

Maybe you could explain it to me then? Or is it one of those "if you have to ask, you'll never know" kind of things?
 
Another NRA division that was on life-support when announced, and will likely be dead on arrival.
 
I agree that many people do it as part of a fantasy, but there is a tangible benefit to hunters. I would also argue that serious competitors take it further than a hobby and it becomes a lifestyle. Same with bodybuilders, bikers, and musicians.

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I actually take it fairly seriously myself. I don't kid myself about it though, no one is going to pay me to do it, and nobody outside of a very small group of shooters could care much less about my cabinet full of trophies, medals and awards. My wife doesn't even find them particularly interesting. I've spent a lot of time and money on competitive shooting, not to mention blood, sweat and tears, but at the end of the day, the only real reward is my own satisfaction and enjoyment.

I suppose that on the off chance the apocalypse does come during my lifetime, the shooting skills I've developed could possibly come in useful. That said, I do not really expect that to happen.
 
Maybe you could explain it to me then? Or is it one of those "if you have to ask, you'll never know" kind of things?

I would guess it depends on what is considered a "hobby."

To me, a hobby is something I pay to do and I do not derive an income from it. So competition shooting is a hobby to me.

Some people are able to transform their hobbies into revenue-making endeavors, but all of a sudden, that becomes work.

I know some people who take their hobbies very seriously and are very passionate about them.

I always laugh when people think a professional (gets paid for doing it) is better at something than an amateur (wants to do it) can be.
 
I probably shouldn't even tread here. My F class experience is much like Jimbo 300's. I shoot for fun, and I started with an AR15 with an 18" barrel. I shoot at a club level and was nowhere near being competitive against purpose build rifles. BTW, the FTR World champion shoots the same matches, so there is stiff competition. I'm building a new gun, so I can be more competitive and also improve my skills as a shooter. I believe the skill set will help me with hunting even though F class is far from hunting. Since my new gun is not ready yet, I'm probably going to shoot the first match with my Savage 6.5 Creedmoor hunting rifle. I don't expect to win and don't think that I should be able to win in F-Open with a stock hunting rifle. I'm going to the match because it affords the opportunity to shoot at mid and long range distances (hard to do in the southeast), and I enjoy talking with the other shooters. Even when I get my "purpose built" rifle, I know I will not be at the top of the pack because I have not spent near enough time practicing to compete with World class shooters. I will still be having fun, and my goal will always be to improve myself. One day, if I say with it, I expect to be competitive with the top shooters unless my skills plateau before I get there. At that point I will try a different shooting discipline.

The class you are proposing should not be considered F class, because F class rules are already established. The people you are talking about could shoot F class (as long as they don't have a muzzle break or suppressor that can't be removed) and enjoy improving their skill set just like I am. If they really want to be competitive in F class, they need to have the right equipment. There are matches for other shooting disciplines where the rifles you describe would be more suited. If that is the type of rifle you own and you want to be competitive, I suggest you seek out those matches (Field Precision Rifle, Precision Rifle Series, Snipers Hide Cup, Rifles Only Bushnell Brawl, etc.).

If you want a competition with the exact rules you specified, then start you own and put your time, money, effort, blood, sweat, and tears into it. I wish you the best of luck.

BC
 
I actually started competitive shooting in the late 50's using a 1917 Enfield with a Vaver sight. In '62, I made the 6th Army ROTC Team to Perry with an M1, and on it went from there. As I'm now in my seventies, I have gotten into F-open. Also, I just converted my .223 Spacegun into a mid-range FTR gun. That being said, as I read this thread, No one talks about knowing how to dope the wind or firing the perfect shot. I'll bet that if all of you high masters were to admit it, several of the shots that you fire in a string, are not perfectly fired. No matter how much you spend on your kit, It will not buy you experience and therefore skill. That is why they have Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert class. As your skill and ability increases so also will you modify your equipment to better conform to your concept of what it takes to better yourself and progress up the ladder to High Master and/or Match winner. One of the problems with these forums is that anyone can read a thread and become a high master keyboarder. We here in "Upper Slobovia" are quite population deprived, so things are tough enough as it is. If we were to create more classes, it would dilute us too much. We simply do not have enough shooters to make the two standard classes as it is. Our sling shooters still greatly outnumber the rest shooters. Most of our State is not connected to the main road system and most of you folks live in States where the population of the suburbs of your larger cities is greater than all the population of those connected to our road system. What we have decided to do is to allow certain deviations from the strict rules of the NRA, to participate. We also have the BPCR guys come shoot with us. We try to be as "New Shooter" friendly as we can. Awards though are given for the standard NRA classes, F-Open, F-TR and BPCR.
My thoughts are for all of you to come and shoot. Get knee deep in brass. Learn. Earn your Master or High Master card. But most of all, come shoot, It's fun.
Craig
 
I would guess it depends on what is considered a "hobby."

To me, a hobby is something I pay to do and I do not derive an income from it. So competition shooting is a hobby to me.

Some people are able to transform their hobbies into revenue-making endeavors, but all of a sudden, that becomes work.

I know some people who take their hobbies very seriously and are very passionate about them.

I always laugh when people think a professional (gets paid for doing it) is better at something than an amateur (wants to do it) can be.

Sure amateurs can be great, but like with everything else, professionals are going to be much better on average. The best amateurs do it so much that it "becoming work" is a moot issue.

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Don't kid yourself. Shooting is a "Martial Art" quote from Kevin a long time ago.

I would like to see the Tactical Rifle have its own class in F Class and I would drop my F TR rig in a heart beat to shoot that class. I used a Tactical Rig in F TR for a long time until it just could not compete with the long barrels and heavy bullets.

I feel the Tactical Classes as Vu suggested, would be closer to a true shooter sport. Heck if it was up to me I would go old school Palma Rules and make everyone shoot the same ammo.

The problem with any shooting sport is it starts out with great intentions and then guys game it to win.

Before anyone slams me for not knowing anything about F Class. I have been on US National Team since 2007 and competed in two World Championships. I liked where the rifles and ammo where in 2007 far more than today. The Tactical Class as Vu suggested would even the playing field and get more shooters out. Which is a good thing.
 
Don't kid yourself. Shooting is a "Martial Art" quote from Kevin a long time ago.

I would like to see the Tactical Rifle have its own class in F Class and I would drop my F TR rig in a heart beat to shoot that class. I used a Tactical Rig in F TR for a long time until it just could not compete with the long barrels and heavy bullets.

I feel the Tactical Classes as Vu suggested, would be closer to a true shooter sport. Heck if it was up to me I would go old school Palma Rules and make everyone shoot the same ammo.

The problem with any shooting sport is it starts out with great intentions and then guys game it to win.

Before anyone slams me for not knowing anything about F Class. I have been on US National Team since 2007 and competed in two World Championships. I liked where the rifles and ammo where in 2007 far more than today. The Tactical Class as Vu suggested would even the playing field and get more shooters out. Which is a good thing.

I get what you are saying. Beyond that, I just have an aversion to such one task rifles. It goes against the nature of what a rifle should be. Just my opinion. That's also why I want this division. I like winning (god forbid), but I don't want to spend $5k for a *bastardized* rifle to do it. Not that I don't still enjoy it, and I guess the occasional win is sweeter this way anyways.

I also like the martial art analogy.
 
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Don't kid yourself. Shooting is a "Martial Art" quote from Kevin a long time ago.

I would like to see the Tactical Rifle have its own class in F Class and I would drop my F TR rig in a heart beat to shoot that class. I used a Tactical Rig in F TR for a long time until it just could not compete with the long barrels and heavy bullets.

I feel the Tactical Classes as Vu suggested, would be closer to a true shooter sport. Heck if it was up to me I would go old school Palma Rules and make everyone shoot the same ammo.

The problem with any shooting sport is it starts out with great intentions and then guys game it to win.

Before anyone slams me for not knowing anything about F Class. I have been on US National Team since 2007 and competed in two World Championships. I liked where the rifles and ammo where in 2007 far more than today. The Tactical Class as Vu suggested would even the playing field and get more shooters out. Which is a good thing.

Have you discussed adding this new class with the NRA Competition Committee?
 
I think the example to use would be. If shooting a 6.5 cal. off of bipods. You are shooting against the open class. There is a lot of shooters who don't want a bench rifle on the ground. They have rifles they use. Last year I went to shooting the FTR class because of this. The open class is a great division but what is the real difference of open and bench rest. They are laying on the ground vs on a bench. Don't touch the rifle on pull the trigger. Now you get into the FTR class at least they are shooting the rifle. Why not have a Open Class with the rules of the FTR class.
 
I think the example to use would be. If shooting a 6.5 cal. off of bipods. You are shooting against the open class. There is a lot of shooters who don't want a bench rifle on the ground. They have rifles they use. Last year I went to shooting the FTR class because of this. The open class is a great division but what is the real difference of open and bench rest. They are laying on the ground vs on a bench. Don't touch the rifle on pull the trigger. Now you get into the FTR class at least they are shooting the rifle. Why not have a Open Class with the rules of the FTR class.

6.5 shooters would still get dominated by 7saum, .284, etc.

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I would agree to some point. I think the point is that not everybody has a bench rest rifle or a FTR rifle. There would be enough shooters for the division and would open up more shooting. I shot against 7mms and won some and lost some. Even shooting off of bipods. My odds isn't as good as theres but that is my choice. The way it is setup now. If you shoot anything off of bipods that isn't a 308 or 223 then you are in the open class. Good luck with that.




6.5 shooters would still get dominated by 7saum, .284, etc.

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I think the example to use would be. If shooting a 6.5 cal. off of bipods. You are shooting against the open class. There is a lot of shooters who don't want a bench rifle on the ground. They have rifles they use. Last year I went to shooting the FTR class because of this. The open class is a great division but what is the real difference of open and bench rest. They are laying on the ground vs on a bench. Don't touch the rifle on pull the trigger. Now you get into the FTR class at least they are shooting the rifle. Why not have a Open Class with the rules of the FTR class.

I don't think it's wise to shoot a magnum free recoil. Benchrest is really a very different discipline.

But if you create a open-bipod class, all those guys with .308's are going to be asking for their own class in a matter of minutes. I think a field/tactical/military/whatever class makes sense given how popular the rifles are, but if your'e just making another open class, then it's really splitting hairs. It's going to evolve towards one caliber and one style of rifle, and everyone not shooting that will be at a pronounced disadvantage and wanting another class.
 
There is nothing perfect but this isn't either. When left to discussion then ideas will come. From shooting matches for few years. I think there is a need for this class. I tried to post a video but can't from photo bucket. This would show the open class. It is a lot like bench rest. Maybe not magnum but the shooter doesn't even touch the rifle and when he pulls the trigger he doesn't even look through the scope. To me that is very similar to bench rest shooters. The bench rest shooters are very good at what they do but you wouldn't want to lay beside them and compete.
 
Here is a video of what I'am talking about.


[video]http://s702.photobucket.com/user/dar1246/media/MVI_0020.mp4.html[/video]
The rifle in that video wouldn't be legal for F-Class Open
 
I shot against that. I took 2nd place and he took third. I had to be on my A game. The thought is that least chances of errors if shooting this way. That is why I went to FTR.
 
not legal in F-Open

Why is that? I'll admit all I could see is the opening image; the video wouldn't play for me. Looked like the guy *was* shooting F-Open...

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Looks legal to me, although you might argue it's pushing the limits of return to battery. I think people are more weirded out by the fact that it doesn't look like a normal rifle than anything. I suppose that is getting a little blurry with benchrest - benchrest with spotters. I'm not sure it'd be legal in BR, though.
 
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Dang, even FTR rigs are getting out there...

kinggungal03.jpg



-pd
 
Dang, even FTR rigs are getting out there...

kinggungal03.jpg



-pd

Sorry, but is that real? If so, I think it is obvious that a new division should be made.

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" I basically shoot the gun with no cheek or body contact."
Yeah, if that's the direction F class goes...there's going to be a big demand for a reasonable division

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Let's stop and think what changes would need to be made to Mr. King's rifle for it to be legal to shoot in the FPR match just held in Palo Alto, LA???
Different bi-pod (fold/commercially available), modify so it's a repeater and can load from magazine and finally a different scope (it's fixed 36x, needs to be 25x or less). That's it...otherwise it would qualify...rear bag is okay in Class B and the barrel is 30"...
 
Let's stop and think what changes would need to be made to Mr. King's rifle for it to be legal to shoot in the FPR match just held in Palo Alto, LA???
Different bi-pod (fold/commercially available), modify so it's a repeater and can load from magazine and finally a different scope (it's fixed 36x, needs to be 25x or less). That's it...otherwise it would qualify...rear bag is okay in Class B and the barrel is 30"...

Those changes aren't minor.

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A bit off-topic but does anyone have a link to the rules for any/any? I was under the impression bipods are allowed there, but no rests, would this not be the class OP is looking for?

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with barrel blocks, I think theyre a great idea. Heres another sweet barrel block F-Open rifle:

6.5 ?Mystic? Barrel Block F-Classer within AccurateShooter.com

And the video above as well as Richard King`s rifle were both pretty obviously inspired by rail guns. Again, I dont see anything wrong with either of them. Theyre within the rules. Whats wrong with progress? This is how advancements happen is it not? I was looking at a XLR chassis rifle the other day and was thinking on why XLR didnt just make that cross-bar piece a short/miniature barrel block.. That would make it so you could use the same stock for any barreled action combo as long as your barrels are the same stock diameter. Not to mention it can make it act like a shorter barrel in regards to vibration frequency and one can tune the rifle as well by sliding the barrel back or forth in the block, fine-tuning the best load even further.

Barrel blocks also take the stress off the action so you dont have to worry about your action flexing under the weight of a long 1.25" straight cylinder barrel. I also remember reading that target shooters used to sleeve their R700s to get a flat/square bottom action, or else have to redo the bedding on their R700s every 100 or 200 rounds or so when shooting .300 Wby Mags and larger because of the torque twisting the action out of the bedding somewhat and causing a bit of a accuracy loss. Barrel blocks make this redundant. I know many will probably try to rebuke this and say their .300 Wby Mag and .300 Win Mag R700 shoots fine, but he was only talking about maybe a 1/8 min loss of accuracy or less. If youre a tactical shooter and can immediately distinguish a 1/8 min loss without it possibly attributed to something else I commend you.

Other than the barrel block, the stock does look kinda radical but I really dont see a problem. I think of BR rigs and F-Open rifles to be the shooting equivalent of dragsters(aka "rails"). Theyre only good at going extremely fast for a 1/8mi or 1/4mi but thats what theyre built to do and optimized for. Noone has any doubts that you might drive a dragster to the grocery store, or race it at Le Mans. Consequently, noone should have any doubts that you`re going to lug a 22lb F-Open or 85lb 1000yd BR Heavy Gun rifle around and try to compete with it at the Sniper`s Hide Cup.

Regarding shooting free-recoil, say what you will about it but it obviously works. Berger`s own Eric Stecker came in 2nd at the Berger SW Nat`ls, and from what I hear he was shooting free-recoil. Its not prohibited in the rules so again, I dont see a problem, even more so that its at the top of the pack. I read that a friend and Walt Berger were at the line with Mr. Stecker, and that Mr Walt Berger himself, an avid Benchrest competitor for the record, said "I cant shoot like that, I have to hold my rifles."

What Im getting at is that unless you`re shooting a 6 PPC railgun, I personally dont see shooting free-recoil as an advantage or threat to traditional shooting. It really ends up being personal preference. If your rifle will track straight and shoot straight in free-recoil, have a go at it. I dont have a rifle that will track straight from free-recoil, so I cant comment from experience but IMO with the right technique from a good bipod/rest and rear bags it wont make a difference on target. Correct me if Im wrong.

If youre wanting to create a new F-Class division, I`d take a long, hard look at the Hunter BenchRest class. That class was started so that the average hunter could bring his average deer rifle to a BR competition. The rules are 10lb weight, 6x scope, convex fore end at 2.25" wide max, action with a magazine with capacity of atleast 2 rounds, and a cartridge with atleast 45gr H2O capacity. Instead of a bunch of hunters shooting BR with hunting rifles, they ended up with "winners" as was said above, shooting purpose-built rifles and even purpose-made cartridges; namely the .30x47 HBR. Sometimes they would use .300 Savage brass and sometimes they`d use Lapua .308 brass, just depends on what chamber they chose. Different rules, but the winners still rose to the top and the rifles still ended up being built for that specific purpose, not resembling anything the creators of the class had envisioned. The only way you`re going to truly even out the equipment is standardize a rifle; ie limit what cartridges they can use to just a few options, limit stock options to just a few, limit barrel length and contour, limit action choices, etc. But then IMO that would just be NASCAR or NHRA Pro Stock with rifles. Strange because it seems with classes like those, where options are very limited and theres only a few ways to go for cylinder head configuration and the like, the race teams end up pouring exponentially more money into the program to squeak out the tiniest advantage compared to more open classes.

tl;dr: IMO barrel blocks and rail-like guns for F-Class are sweet. Nothing wrong with free-recoil shooting. Winners still win. Purpose-built rifles will always come into the fray.

Besides, we`re all here for the same reason right? That is, the pursuit of getting our rifles/ourselves shooting 5, 10, 15, 20, or more shots into one ragged hole, hopefully at the center of the target. Thats what its all about.

ETA: Heres Mr Bart talking about the bedding for R700s coming loose:

M98 mauser sleeved action project - Long Range Hunting Online Magazine
 
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That is a one of a kind gun that so far as I know nobody has even tried to duplicate, it's about as applicable to F-Open as concept cars are to actual driving, though there are more than a couple of F-Open shooters who are shooting with out cheek contact. It is sort of the illogical extreme construct. If you are looking for a reason not to shoot you can always find one. The TN State F-Open champion the last two yrs in a row shot a 260 with a long barrel, with the brake screwed off, in either a McM or a Manners camo stock with a plate mounted to the front stud so it would ride the bags. I scored for him both times.

If you want to shoot nothing is going to stop you, if you are looking for reasons to sit at home a grouse, the opportunities are infinite.